Ogre War Mammoth - (New Rules Vote)

Alright,

I know the topic as come over and over again... but since me and Ogrebane are talking in PM about putting a friendly online game challenge (Ogres vs High Elves). Ive thought it would be nice to play test a Ogre War Mammoth rules on the Table. Now one thing that must be clear is that the rules presented here are not coming from "Joblo-whoever-I-want-this-to-be-more-powerful-tom-boy"... they are coming from the War Chaos Mammoth rules V2 from Forgeworld with some adaptation for the Ogre Army. Im putting the following converted rules here so we can really get into this and for once find a definite rules for it. Once satisfied and after play test is done... who knows maybe we can adapt them to be integrated within the stronghold for good. A Pool as been haded so we can see by vote who is in favor of it who is not. Please take the time to vote and TKY for your time.

BARABAS











Save: The plates on the side of the Mammoth give it a 6+ armour save.

Ignore Psychology: Nothing scares an enraged Mammoth! They are immune to Psychology.

Large Target: Mammoths are…well, Mammoth sized! It is a large target.

Terror: The Mammoth is massive, shaking the ground with its foot falls, bellowing and snorting as it crushes all before it. A Mammoth causes terror in their foes. See the Warhammer Psychology rules for details. A Mammoth has a unit strength of 12 for fear tests

Move: So huge and heavy is the Mammoth that they step over or easily crush obstacles such as walls and fences without breaking stride. Treat any obstacles that are not higher than the Mammoths knees as open ground. The Mammoth is a lumbering beast and cannot make a March move. It may still charge as normal.



MAMMOTH SPECIAL ATTACKS
Mammoths do not attack in the same way as other creatures though they select their victims as normal. They do not respond to orders and have no plans beyond violently crushing anything before them. The player controlling the Mammoth may select one of the following types of attacks each time it is the Mammoths turn to attack.


Trample, Stamp, Gore…
The Mammoth just walks right into and over the enemy, crushing them beneath its massive feet, smashing them with its trunk and tusks and generally throwing its massive weight about. This can have a devastating effected on densely packed troops, but skirmishers can more easily evade the trampling. A unit attacked by a trampling Mammoth sustains 1D6+the rank bonus of the unit being attacked (max 3) Strength 10 hits. Work out damage and saves as normal.


Butt
The Mammoth charges head first, ramming its huge weigh into the target, flattening buildings, walls, towers. This attack can only be used against stationary targets such as buildings, walls, castle gates etc. A butt attack cannot be used against enemy units or characters, they are too small. The Mammoth automatic scores one hit against the target, causing a Strength 10 hit. If this is against a castle roll on 2D6+10 on the appropriate damage table. See the Warhammer rulebook, ‘Rules of Siege’ for details.


Pick up and …
The Mammoth uses its agile trunk to grab a hapless victim that is either in base contact or touching a model in base contact (the trunk has a long reach). The target may make a single attack to fend off the trunk. If it hits and wounds the Mammoth then the attack fails, otherwise the Mammoth grabs the model and rolls a D6 to see what the Mammoth does next:

1-2 Throw back into combat. The victim is hurled back into his own unit like a missile. This causes D3 wounds on the victim with no saves of any kind allowed, and D6 Str 4 hits (saves as normal) on the unit. If the thrown model survives place it at the back of the target unit.

3-4 Hurl. The victim is hurled into any enemy unit within 18” of the Mammoth, randomly determine which. This causes D3 wounds on the victim with no saves of any kind allowed, and D6 Str 4 hits (saves as normal) on the unit. If no enemy units are in range threat this as a Throw back into combat result. If the thrown model survives place it at the back of the target unit.

5 Eat. The Mammoth swings the victim into it’s gaping mouth and munches him down. The model is removed from the game. If the target is another large creature then even a Mammoth’s mouth is not large enough. Roll this result again for large creatures that the Mammoth picks up.

6 Squash. The Mammoths strong trunk constricts the victim until it pops! The model is a casualty and is removed from the game. Any creature or character with a basic strength of 6 or above is too strong to be squashed, in which case roll again on this table.


Bellow
The Mammoth roars and bellows at the enemy. Deafeningly loud and terrifying neither the Mammoth nor any units in contact with it actually fight if they have not already done so this turn. The Mammoth’s side automatically wins the combat round. The enemy must make a break test with a –1 modifier.


Howdah
The Howdah on the Mammoths back CAN carry a single unit of up to 3 OGRES. This unit may include a champion, banner bearer and belower (musician). This unit may be equipped with hooks and chains, for swing down at their enemies. Hooks and chains count as a HARPOON LAUNCHER with a reach of 12 inch from the Howdah and cost +15 PTS per model. Up to 3 OGRES may use the hooks and chains to attack units in close combat with the Mammoth. Whilst in the howdah the OGRES count as Skirmishers for the purposes of resolving combat. If the Mammoth is killed the surviving OGRES must spend their next turn reforming.

In addition to the OGRES the howdah throne may seat a single OGRE TYRANT, OGRE SLAUGHTERMASTER, OGRE BRUISER or OGRE BUTCHER  for the points costs indicated in the Warhammer Armies book: Ogre Kingdoms. A SLAUGHTERMASTER/BUTCHER may cast spells from the back of the Mammoth.

The howdah may also carry an OGRE BRUISER ARMY BATTLE STANDARD carrying the Army Battle Standard.

Any characters or the OGRES can dismount from the Mammoth, to fight on foot as normal. The Mammoth must remain stationary for the entire turn, and those dismounting (down ropes and rope ladders) can do nothing else (including casting spells etc) in the turn they dismount. They are formed up in a single unit in base contact with the Mammoth model, as if reforming. Once dismounted they may not remount, this would take far too long.

- A character may dismount to take part in a challenge, and may automatically remount or continue fighting on the ground if he survives.

- The howdah can be targeted by missile fire separately from the Mammoth and counts as hard cover against missile fire for those in it.

- All attacks against the Mammoth and its riders must be resolved against the Mammoth, not the riders who are too high up to be hit.

- Attacks by flying creatures can be targeted at either the riders or the Mammoth itself.

- Troops riding a Mammoth are immune to psychology and do not take panic tests, they have nowhere to run! They will be carried out of combat if the Mammoth should fail its break test.

- The Mammoth is so tall that troops in the howdah can use it as a siege tower, and can exit the howdah onto castle battlements and towers as if it was a siege tower.


Rampage
Once a Mammoth is badly wounded it is likely to become uncontrollably wild, and begin to rampage out of control. At the start of the OGRE players turn roll a D6. If the score is higher than the Mammoths remaining wounds it goes berserk and begins to rampage out of control. Once the Mammoth starts rampaging do not roll again, it remains berserk until it is killed or leaves the table.

Note, do not roll until the Mammoth has 5 wounds or less remaining.

As compulsory movement the Mammoth moves 2D6 inches in a random direction as determined by the scatter dice. The Mammoth counts as charging and tramples any unit (friend or foe) it moves into.

If the random movement takes the Mammoth into a wall or building then it butts the obstacle instead.


Points
600 + cost of the OGRE unit or character carried. The Mammoth counts as two Rare choices for a OGRE Army. The unit of OGRE and the Characters must be bought separately.

Sounds fun! Didn't they already make something like a chaos mammoth? The rules look fairly ballanced although that guy could be brought down by 2 lucky cannons in 1 turn... A bit risky

Squerkie; see the opening paragraph. There is indeed a chaos war mammoth.

Barabas; Is the red text what you changed?
-Why only a 6+ armor save (no scaly, in this case thick/furred, skin?)? I realise it already has T7 and 12W, but poisoned attacks will tear this thing up (can you imagine losing this 600 point model to skinks?)
-Is there a restriction to what the mammoth can pick up with its trunk (i.e can it throw steam tanks, stegadons, giants etc)? If not, maybe rewording the rules so that the strength of the hit dealt to a unit when a model gets thrown at it is equal to the missile's toughness (e.g when throwing a black orc big boss at a unit of orcs the orcs would take D6 S5 hits, where as a skink shaman would only deal S3 hits).
-I suggest rewording the text so that the hits the mammoth deals are equal to its strength, not 10. That way if something decreases the beast's strength to 6, it is only dealing S6 hits, not 10.
-Can the mammoth use Butt against stanks? Or other large targets? It makes some sense.
-How about making the ogres on the howdah bulls, or ironguts (of course with the addition of the hooks and chains). Just to simplify things. That way we know what equipment they have (ogre clubs come to mind. It doesn't state they have these). Why do the hooks and chains have to count as a harpoon launcher? That makes them almost useless because of ogres' terrible BS. And make a provision so that the hooks and chains can't be used while on foot, just because they are unwieldy, and slightly too good.

That's what I have off the top of my head. I haven't voted yet, because I think they still need reworking.

The text in red is what as been reworked from the rules. If you would fight a Marauders Chaos Mammoth you would replace all that is in red by Marauders Naming convention. For The chain they are counted as Throwing axe for the marauder and ive simply change it by something we hade in the OK book which is the harpoon launcher rules... since we dont have axe...

The fact that the ogre is on the howdah throwing a chain down is what make the effect of the Harpoon Launcher. Instead of 36 inch for the harpoon rule which make no sense I short it to 12 inch. (Page 27 of the OK book)

The 3 Ogres yes could be made as a unit of Bull or Ironguts.

I know the harpoon launcher is our closest analog... but, it kind of sucks when used by bulls. They couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside.

According to the rules the Mammoth can carry 5 ogres, 3 normal, one character and one battle standard bearer, what about reowrding the rules so that it carries 5 normal ogres, but these are replaced by any characters you take or something aslong those lines, then at least then you can have more normal ogres and less points invested in the mammoth.

-Arante

I seem to remember that you cant poison something you couldnt normally wound.
Str 3 cant hurt T 7
but maybe I misremember

That is the rule, at least in 6th ed. Same goes for when you hit on 7's or higher.

I think that a few rewording and this would be playable. The inclusion of attacks againt large targets makes more sense. I can imagine a mamoth head butting a giant but noe trampling it. Also Giants should be allowed to aim at either the mamoth or the riders.

I like the idea of a unit up to 5 on the mamoth and characters replacing unit (with min unit size of either 3 or 0)

I would keep the throwing ax analogy as that would allow the ogres to attack with str5. Yep they have sucky BS but thems the breaks. I would give it a 4+ armour save as well (Thick hide and heavy armour)

Other than that I would have a go at it.

Cheers Aris

The Trample, Stamp, Gore… rules imply that the mammoth is using his feet as away of attacking... against a giant it would be like if the mammoth was on his rear leg and pushing his foott forward or using is frontal ivory weapon. The attack is good against a large number of ranked unit but against a single unit you end up with only a 1d6 str 10 hits.

I see the 10 hits being a problem here and would accept that it make no sense against a large creature group and in this case would not be allowed. A simple (Not usable against large target) could be haded to this portion of the text.


The 6+ armor... rules, well I dont know if I would increase it with a 4+ armor... the mammoth already as a toughness of 7... if you hade any Butcher spell be allowed to be cast on the mammoth it could mean that you now have a beast that can be rather:

Toothcracker = stubborn with +8 toughness or
Bullgorger = +11 strenght or
Trollguts = Magic resistance (2) with a regeneration effect.

The Howdah... rules, I guess the weapon effect can be revisited with the effect of the axe which was what it was before at a cost of +1 pts per model (would need a table test). We would have to get people to refer to the Warhammer rulebook instead of just the OK book. My idea was that if an Ogre throw a chain at a large target he end up with a hit that as more effect since he can use the Mammoth balance movement to make a large target a must pass strenght test vs the chain or be hit with another wound as the Ogre pull on the chain while the mammoth move (same effect as the hunter) Plus the harpoon rules would mean the Ogres can hit "non-living models" like Coaches, obstacles, screaming bells, buildings, bridges etc ...

The Trample, Stamp, Gore… rules imply that the mammoth is using his feet as away of attacking... against a giant it would be like if the mammoth was on his rear leg and pushing his foott forward or using is frontal ivory weapon. The attack is good against a large number of ranked unit but against a single unit you end up with only a 1d6 str 10 hits.

I see the 10 hits being a problem here and would accept that it make no sense against a large creature group and in this case would not be allowed. A simple (Not usable against large target) could be haded to this portion of the text.

That's a good change too, limiting the number of hits to d6. But I still think you need something explaining that the hits are at the mammoth's strength, not S10. Just to make it clear, in case something changes it.

The 6+ armor... rules, well I dont know if I would increase it with a 4+ armor... the mammoth already as a toughness of 7... if you hade any Butcher spell be allowed to be cast on the mammoth it could mean that you now have a beast that can be rather:

Toothcracker = stubborn with +8 toughness or
Bullgorger = +11 strenght or
Trollguts = Magic resistance (2) with a regeneration effect.

6+ just seems so light. What does the chaos war mammoth have in terms of armor? If it's only 6, I guess that's good. I don't think the mammoth should be effected by gut magic. It's not an ogre.

The Howdah... rules, I guess the weapon effect can be revisited with the effect of the axe which was what it was before at a cost of +1 pts per model (would need a table test). We would have to get people to refer to the Warhammer rulebook instead of just the OK book. My idea was that if an Ogre throw a chain at a large target he end up with a hit that as more effect since he can use the Mammoth balance movement to make a large target a must pass strenght test vs the chain or be hit with another wound as the Ogre pull on the chain while the mammoth move (same effect as the hunter) Plus the harpoon rules would mean the Ogres can hit "non-living models" like Coaches, obstacles, screaming bells, buildings, bridges etc ...

I like the weapon, they're just expensive for a model who'll hit 1/3 of the time. Maybe just have them count as hand weapons that have the extra wound rule?

6+ armor is meaningless on a T7 target. He cant even be hurt by anything lower then str 4.

I think the rules were going for more of a 40K save. i.e. a ward save.

Question that was braught in into test play...

Would a Ogre War Mammoth do Impact Hits when charging more than 7" on an enemy ???
(Currently not in the rules of forgeworld for the Chaos Mammoth)

I think trample pretty much covers the impact hits.

i think that this mamoth would be amazing and i have no objections to it, you could basically destroy anything with that, the only thing i want to add would be that it should have a ballistae tower in which gnoblars could fire a ballistae from atop the mamoth and the balistae would follow the same rules as a bolt thrower

Personally i think it should do impact hits, but it should be D3 at mammoths S, or D6 at 1/2 Mammoths S.

@ Ogre_Man
I think Gnoblars would be a bit too scared to climb a mammoth, but i can see them doing the same thing with a Rhinox, i might make some rules for it if nobady beat me to it.

-Arante

well, the hook and chain is a lot more powerful than the throwing axe, since it penetrates ranks. I would give them throwing axes... why didn't you? maybe arm them with throwing-gnoblar or Big Rocks (act as throwing axes), or else Leadbelcher cannons...

actually, leadbelcher cannons would be cool. add a special misfire rule as well... If the leadbelchers misfire, instead of doing D6 S4 hits to their own unit, it does 2d6 S4 hits to the War Mammoth and the mammoth lurches straight forward 2d6".

Then we might actually want to get Misfires sometimes eh?

Loving it! I was thinking of writing up some Mammoth rules for myself earlier, but I think it has already been done I love the idea of them, and it would be relatively easy to convert out of GS and the Mumak kit from LOTR.

-Ghlez

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