Ogre Kingdoms vs. Daemons of Chaos

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Daemons of Chaos Ogre by Lewis Clarke

Had a game against Demons this weekend and thought i'd update on how it went and what i'd learnt.

Faced a fairly "nice" list as far as they go. 1500pts

HoT with loremaster and dispel.
HoS with Loremaster

30 Demonettes (w/ ASF due to Herald)
30 Bloodletters (banner of movement)
30 Horrors (4+ward due to Herald)

3 Flamers

Numbers on units might be off by some - can't recall accurately!

basically got mullered quite bad.

Shooting:
Got out shot as flamers are leadbelchers that hit on 2+, are skirmishing so are -1 to shoot at and are still touch in combat!

The Ironblaster rolled poorly in trying to snipe his Heralds (rolled a 1 on the D6 for mutiwound and then misfired!) but i can this having a purpose definately!

Magic:
Outmagic'd reallty as he had loremaster on 2 guys (life and forgot other) - dwellered my ogres to hell and back! sucks taking a whole model off - wish it only did one wound...can see why this can be comped now!

Also he has a magic item (banner) which allowed him to name a lore at the start of the game which reduces my casting rolls by -2!!! This hurt bad!

Offensively, the Panic spell is useless. The stubborn one near useless as you'll be causeing lots of damage but that pesky ward save combined with unbreakable keeps you locked in there! Maw is mostly useless as unless there's plaguebearers (I1), you're looking at I5 troops for the most part (some I3 now i think about it!)

The +S and +T will obviously help and we dont have to worry about bloodletters Killing Blow ability! - yay! one thing goes for us!

Combat:
We still hurt hard - i did so many kills from impact hit alone but those damn ward saves and unbreakable really do kick you in the teeth!

Main Lesson learnt:

Sniping maneaters are very useful as is the IB in order to pick off their heralds which SEVERELY weaken the unit (4+ to 5+ ward saev, lose regen 4+, lose ASF rerolls! etc!)

I found it hard to chip them down to not being stubborn...soon as they lose stubborn they crumble away a plenty but against units of 6 ogres (who are still taking casualties) you're gonna struggle for a while! Even Horrors held me up for 4-5 rounds of combat!

It is annoying that that banner now affects our magic now. The daemons FAQ says:

Q. Does the Great Standard of Sundering give a -2 penalty to Ogre Gut Magic? (p95)
A. No.

but this is due to the last book...

A greater daemon should be the first target of your Ironblasters, and avoided in combat.

Khorne beserkers are actually quite easy for us to kill, and if you canget the toughness spell off, and survive that first turn, then they will die in droves. Buff yourself with whatever you can get off then ram them to win. Same applies to plaguebearers, as they lost out with 8th edition.

Slaanesh Daemonettes are fast, but weak. they will hit first, but have such low strength they wont make much damage.

Tzeench horrors will be taken in a block 0f 40. and this is just to give them the dispel advantage. otherwise they are just a big bodyguard for the herald. Mostly ignore them, or flank charge them if possible.
All tzeench daemons have flaming attacks, so trollguts is nigh on useless againt them, and the changeling is one hell of a pain to kill, unless you take the dragonbane gem, or dragonbane helm, or a firebelly.

Furies will have not much to take on in your army, as they make good warmachine hunters, which ours can take care of themselves.

Specials:
Khorne hounds - these are used as redirectors, or flankers. if they are fielded in large groups, treat them like fast cavalry - an annoyance, and something that will tie you up if not destroyed fast.

Screamers are the bane of my existence. they are skirmishers, fly, and only have to fly over you to do their attacks. they are hard to catch in combat, and keep harassing you as much as possible. Most people dont take many, so target these with your leadbelchers. reform them with a musician, then shoot, as we dont get the move/shoot penalty.

Nurglings are easily stomped, and like most nurgle daemons, probably wont be taken due to the change in rules for them. A nice combat block will squish these to death with ease.

Seekers are fast, but again dont hit hard, so enough time will wear these down. Just be aware of flank attacks.

Bloodcrushers are very strong, and touch, with a great armour save. Fortunately, we have IronGuts that can make a mockery of both their toughness and armour. Trollguts will certainlty help here. and dont forget, they lose their stomp against us - always a good thing to let them lose an attack.

Flamers of Tzeentch: watch out, these can march AND shoot, so they will harass you as much as possible. and unlike most Tzeentch units, are not awful in combat, with the same strength as a bruiser, and the same tougness as a normal ogre. Along with two wounds, they have a habit of surviving longer than you think.
Tackle these with something like mournfangs, or grapeshot from the cannon. Get the charge in with a chariot, or a large enough unit of ogres, and you should wipe enought out to get them to pop. Either that or hit them with bonecrusher as they are never high numbers. 12 wounds at most across the unit can be taken down. leadbelchers are also a good choice, and a sabretuck or gorger in the flank can cause some disruption.

Lastly we have Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends of slaanesh. Both fill the same roll - flank charger and redirector. one is a bit tougher, and the other is a lot faster. but Monstrous Beasts, they dont threaten us too much.  only be wary of them in large numbers, where they can be manouvered to hit hard in a unprotected flank.

Finally: With any Daemon army, they will have at least one Tzeentch Herald with Life (the changeling is a champion so can be brought back whenever he is killed with the regrowth spell), and the other may take shadow or death. this is where your magic defense comes in. Hellheart is a great tool for taking down the life Herald, and a greedy fist can make o break any caster - dont forget that 3 out of the 4 greater daemons are mages, and you only have to hit them, not wound, to take the spel level and spell off of them. And a tip I learnt from taking on dark elves - if you have the points, take the hex scroll. Turning that mage into a frog because they have to roll equal or below their mage level - which you either lowered with the greedy fist, the hellheart, or it is low anyway - most daemon armies cannot field a level 4 unless it is greater daemon and above 2k points.

And this all comes from being a Daemon player myself, and having my most common opponent since i have been playing 8th a daemon player. Always close fights, either with my Daemons, Tomb kings, or Ogres. And he HATES playing the Ogres!

Also - Bash away at anything you dont agree with - This is what forums are for!

Three things need neutralizing in this matchup:

Flamers- These guys are a little easier to deal with, thanks to additions to the main magic item section.  Any character with either the Dragon Gem or Helm can single handedly shut these jokers down.  Most DoC players will let magic missle spells go against them, prefering to keep dice on hand for other threats.  Ironblasters will win the short ranged firefight with them, as well.  If the DoC player is like me, then the flamers are mostly there as flank protection and late game flank charges, especially against regenerating troops, so be prepared for this.

Siren Song- This can bust up your battle line, if you deploy poorly, so make sure if you see Slaanesh Daemons that you deploy your forces in a manner where they can mutually support each other.  The DoC player will generally not be trying to win with the Daemonettes directly, but rather setting up devastating counter charges and isolating parts of your army from the rest of it.  If your units are set up to support each other, then you can charge multiple units in to greatly mitigate this power.

Leadership Bomb- This one is tricky to deal with, particularly with Ogres, though fear will not be hurting you.  Most DoC armies will pack the Icon of Dispair, probably bunkered in some Tzeench Horrors or possibly Plaguebearers, directly behind the main line.  This means that if you lose combat, you are likely running as even your best stubborn units are still LD7 at best.  If you have the means to snipe the DoC BSB, always take the shot as a lot of the stronger DoC armies are built around the synergy of this item.  Finally, if you can only stop one spell on any given turn, that spell must be Phatasmagoria.  I have won numerous games just by getting this spell off on the decisive turn.

What works in this matchup:

Ironblasters- Rather than letting their GD zip around and wreck havoc, this will preasure him into combat with the first available unit, which you can dictate.  In close, grapeshot can soften up units to managable levels and lay waste to chaffe units.  Also, DoC core hate S5 impact hits more than any other army.

Maneaters- Every combo being discussed in the other threads works brilliantly here.  The snipereaters can drill the heralds, the scouteaters can force the DoC player into splitting his already small forces, and the stubborn/poison guys can lay down the law against most things in the army in close combat.

Mournfang Cavalry-  Outside of Bloodletters and Greater Damons, this unit, no matter the kit, will destroy any unit the Daemon player can line up against it.  Daemonettes, in particular, will struggle massively against this unit.

Hunter Ridden Stonehorn with Other Trickster Shard-  This guy is not something most people include in their take all comers lists, but I have to point out that in my test games where I played Daemons, he dominated to a stupid level.  I think a basic Stonehorn would actually do pretty well, but the Other Tricksters Shard and extra weapon enhanced attacks of the Hunter up top make it a Daemon player's worst nightmare.

Units that underperform:

Bulls- Unless you can get them buffed up and/or matched up against Daemonettes or Horrors, these guys will get eaten alive.  Iron Guts take casualties at the same rate, but are dishing it out at a faster rate, so they are a little better.  If you are someone who plays a lot of bulls, you will need to lean heavily on the magic phase to win.

Sabertusks-  Any Daemon army that could be hampered by these will likely have faster chaffe units of their own to deal with them.  My army, for example, has two units of Furies and two single Fiends, along with flamers, to deal with this sort of distraction.  The leadership bombing abilities of the DoC army mean that the panic aspect of these guys is much more risky than normal, as well.

Leadbeltchers- With the ward saves, you just can't do enough damage before the combat hits and once that happens, they are just really expensive Bulls.  They lose the long range shooting war against Flamers and do not help against the big stuff nearly as well as the Ironblasters.

Gnoblars- They will give up more CR than they contribute and the suicide units will only kill one in 8 Daemons, after ward saves, which is not really that much of a deterrent.  Their slow speed is less of an issue here, though.

Played a Blood and Glory at the weekend against Demons @2000pts

Really struggled! He had a BSB and a standard in a unit of plaugebearers and a standard on his Bloodletters, a standard on a unit of 3 juggers and a general.

I managed to Ironblast his juggers back to hell thanks to the multi-wound aspect, but found it so hard to get any other points (standards) due to low model count on my side m,aking making them stubborn for so long! He even had a banenr that negated the loss of ranks/steadfast if flanked/reared (or something to that extent). Combined with the ward save i couldn't get5 a single other banner as i was just tied up in combat and whittled down and eventually chomped up!

Any advice on how to deal with this? It was an all-comers list so i didn't list build?

You are talking about slime trails in a nurgle unit.  It does not stop disruption, but it takes away the bonus for flank and rear.  Basically, this is the nurgle tar pit unit that made GW nerf regeneration in this edition.  Your single best bet is to pile on the combat resolution on this unit as best as you can.  Even without flaming attacks, you should be able to outfight plaguebearers.  If you are running butchers/SMs, get this guy on the line and in a challenge with his herald, as the poison immmunity takes a lot of the bite out of these guys.  Bloodletters are just something you are going to have to accept that you have to trade a unit for (maneaters do well here) to get them out of the game.  With his low unit count, you need to play a game of isolate and combat resolution, as this is where deathstar daemons lose.

I wrote a brief guide on the archieves before the new book was released, but now with the new book around I decided to take a look at it and think if anything has changed. So coming up, tips against daemons from Daemon player =)

Common set ups in daemon army
If one takes a look at tournament lists in any part of the world Daemons of 8th edition will take few options very often and they are as follows, roughly in popularity order:

• Bloodletters, horde or 28 depending on comps
• Herald of Tzeentch with loremaster in Light/shadow/life
• Bloodthirster or Great Unclean one
• Fiends of Slaanesh, in single choices or big blocks
• Furies, for distraction
• Flamers of Tzeentch, shooting
• Daemonettes and herald with siren song.

There is ofcourse more to the book, but these are definately the most common sights in the daemonic army, so I will split each of them and talk them to detail.

BLOODLETTERS
Bloodletters are perhaps the most dangerous part of the army and some prefer another horde of them over greater daemon, which really tells how popular they are. They are usually played in horde formation and commonly have herald with them too. Even though Ogres got good amount of buffs in the new book they are still usually beaten by large number of Bloodletters in combat and there is few reasons for this. Bloodletters are fast and can get charge banner which adds +D6 to their charge range. This effectively cancels Ogres thundering charge. They are also fast in combat and will hit your models hard. And not only that, they have smaller bases and hit stronger than average ogre and are more accurate. In game terms this translates as follows:

If your ogres are in ranks of 4 or in horde formation, which are both pretty common sights, whole horde gets to hit your models before you do. 30 Bloodletters with heralds hatred will deal 16,67 wounds to ogres with 6+ parry from the ironfists and 20 wounds without them. This means that before you have chance to strike you have already lost 5-7 ogres! Ogre horde would attack 54 times against bloodletters and without buffs would only deal 12 wounds + 2,22 stomps. Even without hatred letter horde would deal 13,78 wounds to ogres and 4 ogres would die before chance to strike (3 less daemons to kill). For this reson daemon units need to be softened down with shooting and magic before combat or you need strong buffs in melee to beat them, otherwise you are playing a losing battle. Do NOT rely on regeneration spell though, as herald of Khorne will usually wield +1S flaming attacks weapon that would drop the whole regeneration from your ogres.

HERALD OF TZEENTCH
These level 2 wizards are found pretty much in all but non Tzeentch themed armies. Common picks to daemons are Lore of light with khorne oriented armies, shadow for Slaanesh oriented armies and Life with armies with many multiwound models and greater daemon. Lore of light caster usually throws the buffs on Bloodletter hordes to make them even tougher. -1 To hit for example reduces kills from ogre horde by 4 and can be combined with speed of light to give "-2" penalty against Ws10 and phas protection effectively rendering whole unit of yours useless. Third spell that is very common is timewarp that will give ASF and additional attack to whole horde, this would effectively turn into 6 more wounds in combat against ogres. Do not let the buffs stack or you'll be in great trouble fast. Also furies can be given Ld buff, so that even 5 lousy furies can hold unit of your Mournfang cavalry without fear of breaking out, beware that.

Lore of Shadows can give lots of gray hair to ogres thanks to pit of shadows. Lore itself is usually more common sight in list with daemonettes and flamers, since they both benefit much from lore buffs like withering and mindrazor. Daemonette horde with Mindrazor or -3 to T on you, deals massive 25,80 ASF wounds, almost 9 dead ogres in one round! Definately watch out those spells. Luckily daemonettes are the squishiest bunch on the daemon army and without any buffs or herald will only deal 7,41 wounds to ogres, so take down their herald and dispell the buffs to win against them. Also watch out for signature spell that can prevent your bullcharges for good by reducing the movement.

Lore of light is the rarest pick usually and will usually be there only to keep greater daemon and unit of 6-8 fiends/juggers alive while throwing some dwellers on your units. There really isnt anything else than the +2T, regrowth and dwellers to care in this lore.

BLOODTHIRSTER AND GUO
Both are common greater daemon picks, though you might see lore of death Lord of change too, since its great against ogres (purple sun). GuO has 2 horrible weapons against ogres, balesword and his signature spell. Balesword turns each hit into an automatic D6 wound, so he will very likely kill easily 3 ogres per turn without any troubles. He is also 10W beast that is almost impossible to kill. Have some gnoblars or other throw away units to stall him, for he isnt good against massed units. His signature spell reduces your Ws, T, I and A to 1, which means that even your tyrant is a puny maggot before him. With 3+ to cast he can cast this with even one dice, so beware if you see GuO on the table and in melee with important characters or beasts.

Bloodthirster is the hard hitter that can fly and usually deals 5-6 wounds against ogres with fists. Since he has 3+ armour and 5+ ward and sometimes armour that negates your magical weapons he is hard to kill with characters. As with GuO, try to bog him down with throw away units and use Ironguts instead of characters. Those S6 attacks will hurt even thirsters.

FIENDS OF SLAANESH
These are not such a threat against Ogres as they are against many other foes, but they can very easily counter your charges with their M10 and swiftstrider ability. Large block of 6 will deal roughly 9 wounds on ogres and cost only 55pts each. You can expect them to hunt down man eater scouts, ironguts and other usually smaller units that could threaten greater daemons for example. 12 Ogres would deal only 6 wounds to them, so again buffs are in order to beat them, as you are going to take casualities way before you have chance to strike and you really cannot rely on charge impacts. Single fiends might not attack your "war machines" like they normally do, but instead they lurk opportunistik overrun charges. One fiend lurks behind your lines with his 20" march movement while rest of the army advance normally. It will then make a seemingly silly charge against tough foes rear while bloodletter horde attacks your other unit. If Bloodletters win (which they usually do) and overrun to the fiends fight, they will get an extra turn of combat for free since fiend has not fought out yet, nasty surprise.

DAEMONETTES AND SIREN SONG
Siren song is usually the only reason why these girls are taken. They can totally derail your hordes and reveal their flanks. You can counter this a bit by moving single tigers infront of your big units for example, so that the charge through them would be illegal and thus couldnt be done. Tigers will swiftly charge some random foe when the time comes and move out of the way of ogres. I already covered daemonettes magical capabilities earlier so no need to repeat that =)

There is ofcourse many other choices in the book, but these would be the most common.

General tips
So thats quick recap on what you might face with daemons. Few pointers that you migth want to keep on your mind is that:

• Do not rely on charge and impacts. Daemons are faster than your models and will more likely get the charge
• Usually you need to play bit defensively first and soften the daemons up. Most are tougher than any ogres with their heralds and magics. Do not rush headlong to combat where odds are harshly against you
• Beware the furies. 5 of them will cost only 60pts and there can be 2-4 of them in the field. By throwing them infront of you he can keep your main hammer out of combat as long as he wants by derailing and slowing your movement. Be prepared of small nuisances like these.
• +1T and S are usually the only spells that you need. Daemons have huge resistance to your magic (good stats and 4++ ward against direct damage) so most of your damage spells wont affect them. They also have tons of fire attacks so regeneration isnt very reliable.
• Hellheart can mess up some lists badly. Greater daemons are always level 1 mages (not thirster ofcourse) and army will usually bring herald of tzeentch too. If army has some horrors too, you can force opponent to take 3 miscasts in single turn and add 3 dispel dice to your pool. Very nice.
• Man eaters with sniper ability can help you a big time. They can snipe out -2Ld banner and Masque from Ld bombing lists, Slaanesh and Khorne heralds from the horde units that they buff and even Tzeentch heralds that are essential to the daemons. It might cost a lot, but might also save your game.
• Many medium sized units instead of hordes. Daemons hit harder and faster than ogres, so 40 bloodletters will kill horde of bulls as easily as 8 of them. Smaller units give your better flanking possibilities and ways to divide fire.

Misbeliefs
And finally some misbeliefs from the daemons that I have seen in this thread and around the net.

• DoC hates S5 impacts and S5 hits more than any other army. Not really, actually it is just the other way around since most daemons have no armour but only ward save. There is nothing to lose when strenght of the attacks rise. Instead numerous S2 and 3 hits can bring even greater daemons down, especially if poisoned. This is why daemons fear Skaven that have plenty of these small hits and poisons.
• Mournfang will crush through everything! They wont against the daemons. Skillfull player will throw unit after unit of furies and single fiens at them while killing rest of the army or use charge flag with Bloodletters/juggers to attack them before they have chance to charge. Daemonettes might also force them to charge from 18" away and reveal their flank to any horde of good fighters. They are good, but one mournfang will only do 2 wounds to basic core daemons, where even weak core like Daemonettes with herald will deal 2,24 wounds back at them, so you might even lose against static resolutions here if not careful.
• Horrors can be ignored for most part. Sure they suck in melee, but when they start blasting your Mournfang with +5 to cast spells like 2D6 S4+D6, 2d6 S5 and D6+1 SD6+1 bolts all in same turn while main caster waits to throw his deadly buff to the horde, they do not seem so puny anymore. Drop their numbers to get rid of the tough spells. Also, they are resilient. With herald alive, even a Bull horde will only deal 9 wounds to them per turn, which isnt usually very likely since you will be facing only 5 per rank, so you get lot less attacks.

Haha, and so it would seem that I posted bit longer topic that I intended again, but I hope there is atleast some good tips for you =)

Maybe against the Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets you could use the hex scroll against them, since they're only level 1 wizards. It's definitely situational, but something just sounds right about a great unclean one with a balesword charging into combat and using his signature spell and getting turned into a frog.

Omg, would the hex scroll work on them? That would be the funniest thing of all time!

(Also amazing post by LAV-Kitsune-, thank you for that great input.)

hellheart that greater daemon!

Omg, would the hex scroll work on them? That would be the funniest thing of all time!

While it would be funny indeed, it wouldnt be a good tactic to count on. KoS for example casts no spells at all at level 1 unless he rolls Phantasmagoria (makes you roll Ld on 3 dice and discard the lowest result). GuO wont probably even need Miasma (drops stats to 1) if he has balesword and if he will be throwing plaguewind he will be far away from your models. Also, hex scroll is used instead of dispelling, so you would be letting those dangerous spells like Phantasmagoria through and at that point your whole army will be running (especially if there is Ld bombing too). There is definately better investments on 50pts than hex scroll that you might not even be able to use or that opponent could just easily ignore and for that reason I didnt even include it on good counters list. Hellheart is much more reliable even though it usually just scratches greater daemons, it is still very good against heralds.

As far as hordes are concerned you should endeavor to hit it with two blocks of ogres while delaying reinforcements angling for your flanks. One thing I have found is that Daemons don't really like auto hits such as bull charge and stomp. They also tend to wither under the weight of attacks two ranks of ogres can dish out especially when you have enough bodies to keep the second rank full after they attack.
In addition other autohits in the firebelly and Dragonhide breath weapons will also decimate the Daemons as they only have the 5+ ward to stop wounds. In a recent battle I charged a Bloodletter horde that had two Heralds with a block of 12 Bulls and 8 Ironguts with the BSB, Tyrant, Firebelly and Slaughtermaster and wiped it in one round of combat.

@Kitsune-
Umm, yes they do hate S5 impact hits more than anyone because they are predominantly T3 infantry based army.  The reason I, as a DoC player, really hate impact hits is that they (like stomps) bypass my main defense, specifically WS5 in my core troops.

Mournfangs really are invincible to anything in you would typically see in this army, outside of bloodletters and Greater Daemons.  This is why they get all of the chaffe tossed at them.

Horrors exist for two reasons.  First is to hide the BSB.  The second is to absorb fire.  With a 4+ ward and remote chance of early engagement, I am grateful whenever someone targets my horrors as they actually mitigate damage better than anything else in the army and I am not intending to ever use them in combat.  When they see combat late in the game, its usually after the game is already decided and the DoC player wants some extra combat res to mop up or is just putting them in combat so they can absorb some hits and ride out the end of the game.  Bolt of Change, while powerful, just does not matter in the scheme of things with this army having loremaster of any core lore they want.  The only real incentive to kill horrors early is to lower the bonus to dispell, but personally I would rather focus fire on the combat blocks or flamers.

And, yeah I do play in tournaments a lot.

@Zippy-
In my experience, there are two methods to address the bloodletter deathstars with this army.  The first is to mass charge the hell out of it and let impact hits wear them down.  Ironblasters are actualy fairly resiliant to Bloodletters, due to toughness, if you get them on the flank.  You can also mitigate their CR by engaging them in the front with a resiliant character (Fencerblade style general, ect) solo and then hit them on the side with the damage dealers, preventing them from reforming in a meaningful way.  The other method I have had descent success with is using AHW Maneaters and trading units.  Its ugly, but it works and most armies built around the Bloodletter deathstar tend to have few units.  If your list runs lots of chaffe, then that might work also, but the Icon of Despair makes that a dubious proposition.

And honestly, anyone who is having issues with Greater Daemons needs to add Ironblasters and shooty maneaters to their list.  I stopped taking greater daemons in my DoC list because of this kind of shootiness being commonplace.  Unless you have a keeper and siren with the first turn, greater daemons are dead on turn one against most competant gunline armies (read two cannons) and thats a 500 point hole I would rather not have to climb out of.

@Phazael
Not everything has to be Ironblasters this or shooty man eaters that. Run a Giant and some Yetis and show those Daemon scum whats what

Not to be disrespectful, your example is not very good Zippy. Ogre and daemon units cost roughly the same amount of points even though the number of models might change as one can get roughly 3 core daemons to one ogre bull. This means that unless daemon player has spent tons of points to useless units, your forces are evenly matched in numbers and you cannot count to outnumbering your foe like in your example. For example, against the models that you mentioned, opponent should have greater daemon, horde of bloodletters and smaller unit of daemons instead of just one unit of Bloodletters.

Softening enemy up before charging on the other hand IS a good idea. As daemons are unstable, it is good to do combined charges on softened foes instead of trying to beat everything on 1vs1 fight. Reason for the second situation I already mentioned, most daemons are better than ogres in 1vs1, but there is also another reason to attack them with big numbers. Even 1 daemon can stick to the fight and keep your horde in place if for example opponent has stubborn banner and even without it, instability can really be annoying. For that reason it is better to go and do a slight overkill than and overrun to safety. Attack units with many units and characters and go for the overkill instead of fighting 1vs1. It works.


Phazel: Like I said earlier, daemons do not care near as much about impacts as other armies due to their ward. As an example you could pick helf or Delf elite (swordmasters / black guard) that cost same amount or more than daemons but do not have ward save. Thanks to their ward daemons take 1/3 less casualities than elves. Stomps and impacts are good in general, but they are not any better against daemons than they are to other armies but daemons resist them better thanks to their wards. On the other hand daemons have many fast units that rather get to charge you and that you cannot stomp, like fiends, juggers and greater daemons, so it could be said that stomps and impacts work less against daemons than against high elves for example that rely much on rank and file units.

I would also like to correct role some stuff about horrors. They are not picked as a bunker to the herald very often. See ~50 lists from daemonic legions if you want and you see that much more often horrors either have wings, disc or sit with flamers or just run behind a big horde. It is most common to see horrors in units of 28+ since then they can get the bolt of change. As a general tip, you should kill some horrors as your first priority so that they lose this dangerous bolt (2D6 S4+D6 hits). They are long ranged support with their bolts but can deal massive damage with gift of chaos spell too (D6 SD6 hits on everyone at 12") which can be devastating to many small units that ogres play since it can be thrown to combat and from combat. Another common role is to pick horrors as a caster and uses them as a dispeller, since many daemon armies only get level 4 wizard as a greater daemon, so horrors can help big time here. If you need to push through some magic, kill horrors to make your castin easier when facing armies like this.

As for damage migitation, Plaguebearers are far superior to horrors in this due to their better toughness, fighting skills, poison and heralds gifts. Sure horrors can be bit tougher with herald, but seriously, even gnoblar fighters can get drawn combats with horrors, after all, they only got human statline. Anything with atleast some fighting power will munch through them, so they are definately not a stalling unit. If on the other hand you see changeling on the unit, try to avoid it, as it could even go and kill tyrant easily. Changeling swaps the stats and horrors make the supporting attacks to the tyrant, resulting to an easy kill for daemons. So, good tips against horrors: Drop their numbers so that they cannot cast bolt. Leadbelchers can work well for this as can scouting man eaters that charge them early. Do not throw a big horde at them though, as you just waste your fighting potential.


Considering the ironblasters and giants: No, just no. Unarmoured T5-6 models are very weak against daemnos and cost really much. They are not resilient and they definately do NOT hold against Bloodletters (or against greaters, fiends, flamers or anything similar). Naked T6 (or even worse T5) means that even 8 unbuffed bloodletters can deal atleast one wound on it and unless you get lucky with thunderstomps and attacks, it is going to lose against the combat resolution. If unit has herald in it, you are getting 2-4 wounds per turn even on the ironblaster, meaning that even if you endure the breaktest, your model will die in 2 rounds anyway. Cannons are nice against greater daemons, but you should not rely on them. Cannon has 1/6 chance of misfiring then 1/6 chance on failing to bounce, 1/6 chance on failing to wound and 2/3 chance to bypass ward. This means that one cannon has ~39% chance on wounding a greater daemon. While this might seem nice, almost all experienced generals will use single fiend as a meatshield to the greater, which means that cannon has only less than 10% chance to cut through the fiend and even wound the greater daemon (only 4% chance to kill it on single shot). Since lore of light is so common choice among daemons, phas protection is common sight too, halving all those percents that I mentioned. Many armies have only one turn time to deal with greater daemons by shooting, since with M20" they can easily charge on turn2.

TLDR: Cannons can be great for softening greater daemons (and they do need softening up), but do not rely on them to kill the daemons. I would much rather fear Ironguts instead of Ironblaster. 6 guts dish out 18S6 hits and that WILL hurt even greater daemons.

Except that the Ironguts have to get into close combat and likely lose two of their number before they ever get to swing.  The Cannon makes the DoC player cower with his GD.  The Cannon also largely neutralizes the flamers on the flank issue, since its hard for them to hurt it at range and it can one round them with a charge.  You really need every Irongut and Ogre alive you can have for the inevitable attrition war in the middle of the table.

As for DoC players using Lore of Light, that must be a local metagame phenomenon for you.  Most of them where I have played run Shadow or Life.  This is what I have seen on the East and West Coasts, as well as the upper northwest.  I, personally, run heavens and shadow.  None of those lore combos do anything to reduce the effect of impact hits and stomps (aside from Flesh to Stone) or Firebelly breath weapons.  And if you are running the hellheart, the DoC player is not going to be able to do much on the key turn anyhow. 

If your army design is sound and has some light shooting, the DoC army should be greatly diminished by the time you get into battle.  In fact, all five games against DoC with my new list have gone like this:  Sit in my deployment zone for 2-3 turns drilling GDs and Fiends with cannonballs and knocking ranks off of units with the maneaters.  Charge in everything on turn three, focusing on the bloodletter block if present, popping the hellheart to retain control of the magic phase.  Grind it out and send in the Ironblasters for late game impact hits.  I would personally rather face lore of light than shadow, but that might be my army setup.  The fact that a DoC army has to generally fight to win plays directly into my strengths.

No, Daemon player do not fear only one or two cannons that ogre might throw at him. Pretty much all skillfull daemon players use fiend as a meatshield infront of a greater daemon. Odds are really slim for cannons to kill greater like that, so they really do not pose much of a threat. One cannon has around 31% chance on wounding a greater daemon and most likely you got only one turn time to shoot the greater. I will break that percentage to numbers so everyone will understand it better:

Cannon has 1/6 chance to misfire each turn and second shot has same chance to misfire again, but also added chance to roll too much and go over your target. Cannon has 5/6 chance to wound the daemon and daemon has 4/6 chance to fail ward save. So 1/6*1/3*5/6*2/3=31% to wound but if there is single fiend infront of him cannon has to kill that one too and then wound the greater so formula is: 1/6(misfire)*1/3(bounce and another misfire)*5/6(wound)*2/3(fiends save)*1/2(fiend must die or ball will stop)*5/6(wound greater)*2/3(greaters save)=8,6% to wound greater daemon. For cannon ball to kill the daemon on one shot through the fiend is even lower, 3%. If daemon player got Phas protection in effect (from the most commonly used lore) this percent is dropped to 0,07% to kill the daemon on one shot. I do not consider that much of a threat since greater is on melee combat on the very next turn or in worst case you are facing Keeper of secrets that got the first turn and pulls unit to him on your first turn = 0 turns of shooting.

So in short, shooting is nice bonus that can help to take down greaters but you really shouldnt rely on it. Unlike empire and Dwarves you can get realisticly only 1-2 cannons on your army and while cannons are nice, the monster itself is costly and easily killed by almost anything in daemons list (most kill it in one turn if they catch it in melee). I also mentioned Ironguts as a option, so lets see how they would fare:

3 melee daemons are Thirster, GuO and KoS. Thirster deals 3,89 wounds on guts per turn and 5,19 if he has immortal fury. GuO deals only 2,33 wounds but with balesword even massive 10+ can be expected! KoS deals 4,44 and 5,19 with soul hunger. So 1-2 kills before chance to strike is the most common. A unit of 6 would therefore have 4 ogres to strike back. 4 They would dish out 12 attacks and deal 1,33 wounds to a greater per turn and 5 would deal 1,67. For unit that costs over 200pts less than a greater in most cases thats not really bad. Consider throwing some buff and victory is much easier. With regeneration most greaters would deal only 2 wounds leaving full arsenal of 6 ogres to strike = 2 wounds per round, rank bonus and victory from combat. Even S buff will do good since it would increase wounds from 4 ogres to 1,78 and from 5 ogres to 2,22. Since greater has only 5 wounds even one round like this can be a real threat to him and far more dangerous than cannon for example. Now consider what 8 ironguts could do...

Lore of light on DoC really isnt local phenomenon, but the most common choice. Daemonic legions has a poll for that and in there Lore of light has 39% of votes for most common lore, while Life has 21%. On ETC tournament all daemon players combined  had 8 shadow wizards, 7 light and only 4 life, so clearly light is one of the most common sights on tournament environment and in casual play. By browsing daemonic legions forums one can also see that light is very common and over half of the armies use light. Reasons for this are the lores great synergies with bloodletters, greaters and fiends, the most common sights on daemon lists. Light also protects greaters just as much as +4T from life but with much cheaper price and can affect all units around the greater. So that is why I also would like to mention that do not expect charging daemons so much. Many will use lore of light, get timewarp and have charge ranges like 20"+3D6 (fiends and greater) and 10"+3D6 (letters with charge banner) and that if anything counters ogres bullcharge better than anything, they dont even get chance to charge! And for common sights of light lore shooting is bad strategy against daemons: War machines wont work on 4+ and shooting gets additional -1 penalty to everyone around 12" from the caster.

Shooting is tricky issue anyhow and I would never suggest relying on it even if opponent didnt play lore of light. Flamers cost almost half the points that leadbelchers but also shoot D6 S4 shots, so daemons will easily outnumber you in shooting. On top of that daemons could field big horror units and blast your ogres with 2D6 S4+D6 bolts and have GuO to lead the list while furies stall and redirect your mournfang and hordes. Daemons can just do shooting oriented melee lists so much better than ogres that if by chance your opponent got similar list you are really in a bad situation. And no, ironblaster absolutely does NOT counter flamers. Flamers shoot 1,17 wounds to it with stand and shoot and strike faster in melee approximately 2 more wounds while ironblaster only deals 2-3 wounds. This means that the ironblaster will die on the very next combat round if the odds go as they should. If flamers have one round of shooting blaster from long range, then they deal 1,75(shooting)+1,17(stand and shoot)+2(melee) before it being able to even strike. Thats far from reliable counter... Also saying that you have spent 2-3 turns on shooting the daemon player only proves that you have played against horrible daemon generals. Any good generals army is in combat on turn 2 meaning that if daemons got the start, you only got one turn to shoot them. Shooting on ogres is expensive and not cost effective, so relying it isnt good idea.

its much harder for a greater daemon to use a fiend as a meatshield agaisnt ogres as opposed to other cannons - we can just jog our can 6" to one side and fire past the fiend   Shoot two cannons at bloodthister or kipper and it does tend to go away rather quickly. 

if for some reason the daemons do not get the first turn, ironblasters can have a field day.  the other shooting can also kick in.

also, although daemons can try and be in combat on turn 2, units of gnoblars and sabretusks will ensure that they are not.  this also buys more time for shooting to do some real damage.

if they are getting that close the dispel scroll can take care of one magic phase and the hellheart will take care of another - counting on the lore of light to save them isnt a winning proposition either.

I see light on daemon armies quite often, and it can be rather effective, but I would still suggest that shadow is probably a better overall choice.

As has been aluded to - meatshield tactics dont quite work as unlike other cannons - we're not static and can just move and shoot your face!...twice!

And that second misfire roll - we can roll twice and pick the highest so only have a 1/36 chance of it thudding on the spot!

Well, in seven GTs I went to last year, I faced 7 DoC armies.  Of them, 5 had a life guy, 1 had a shadow guy, and the other had both.  I never saw light once.  In all of these events I generally went 4-1, so I was usually playing the top guys.  Point being, a majority opinion does not make it the best one;  the average person is average for a reason, after all.   The only GT winner I saw all last year that was DoC ran shadow, for the Occums Daemonette combo.

I can see the value of Light, but its just not as good in an army where your WS and Ini already tend to be among the best in the game, which is why I feel its better in an Empire or Lizardmen army.  Personally, Heavens is my favorite lore to run with DoC and I always catch people by suprise with it on my Daemons.  I did very well with it in the two uncomped tournaments I used my DoC in, mostly thanks to Comet and Ice Shard Blizzard.

Back on topic, I maintain that if an Ogre player lets any Greater Daemon (other than a turn one siren Keeper) hit his battle lines, then they have done something horribly wrong, either in the design of their army or its deployment.  Even if they make it in, most of the blocks I run in my army can win the attrition war, especially since I run the beatface Tyrant.  The only things I really ever feel concerned about in this army are the Bloodletter horde and the flamers.

I bring a very nurgle heavy army and usually run a giant plaguebearer block and lore of light is what I usually bring.  Make the pbs able to kill much more. If you can get rerolling poison attacks with tally (poison on a 4+) it is amazing. Also Light of Battle makes you not lose anything to daemonic instability even if you lose combat.  My second choice is shadow because I drop toughness and hit a unit with plague wind, or have two staffs of nurgle going at the group.

Also big Pappa can walk through ogre armies from what I have seen if given the right kit

It is annoying that that banner now affects our magic now. The daemons FAQ says:

Q. Does the Great Standard of Sundering give a -2 penalty to Ogre Gut Magic? (p95)
A. No.

Actually, our lore is still called Gutmagic. Its used interchangably with LotGM and Gastromancy.

Hm...so to be clear - it doesn't affect LoTGM?

Got to admit - the nurgle loadout looks horrific. i expect my mate to bring nurgle demons next game against my ogres as i caned his orcs last game and he wasn't best pleased - all that poison will look like a turn 2 sweep!

My list has 2 units of 5 Leaddies and 2 Ironblaster - whats the big target priority against a nurgle load out list? My gut (pun intended) says try and get the spellcasters/heralds w/ Ironblaster and hope for a failed LoS roll? But then if he has spawns (and he most likely will) then they seem like a turn 1 ironblaster priority whilst the LB's try and whittle down the Plaguebearers?

Remember that Nurgle Daemons now only get either their Regen or their normal ward so they should be much less resilient than they were prior to 8th. Watch out for the Great Unclean One as they can be pretty nasty. Bear in mind that Plaguebearers are also initiative 1 so this is one of the few armies where we'll get to strike first in combat so use that to your advantage.

The Standard of Sundering working on LotGM is open to debate, but its largely irrelavent since most DoC players prefer the Icon of Dispair (-2 LD).  Nurgle Daemons are actually descent against Ogres, with or without regeneration, thanks to the T4, Poison, and assorted other Ogre raping power combinations they can take.  Herald with the breath weapon and rerolling wounds is a big deal against Ogres, for example.  And of course everyone knows how the fat man can wreck ogres and can take several direct cannon hits and laugh it off.

I just came up against daemons a few days ago. Flamers of tzeench ate through my ironblaster and my scraplauncher.
Those seekets were fast and took out some leaddies. Nurglings held up my gnoblar trappers which I intended for those bloodletters.
Screamers went crazy and tied up my bulls, eventually beating them...
Skulltaker and bloodletters go and rape my ironguts. Stonehorn was stomped through lots of horrors.
Glad I didn't face a soul grinder, or those chariots. They look horribley powerful.

Even with all the toys we were given in our new book, Daemons aren't through best match up for us. Don't get me wrong, we are well equipped for dispatching things like their nasty new chariots and even the Greater Daemons. But, sadly, we aren't survivable enough to tale them on either.

JJ

I havn't had issues with Daemons, although the local player just discovered Fateweaver so that could change.

He primarily uses Bloodletters and Daemonettes. 2 units of 30-40 Letters and a unit of 30 Daemonettes, each with a Herald.

Unstable really bones daemons, especially if you can outsteadfast them. Which isn't hard against a Horde. A unit of 12 Ogres plus characters is always sufficient.

I think the dynamic of Daemons will shift back to the Leadership Bomb, and lists like Ben Curry's will absolutely destroy Ogres.

JJ

I think the dynamic of Daemons will shift back to the Leadership Bomb, and lists like Ben Curry's will absolutely destroy Ogres.

JJ

Whos ben Curry?

Fairly strong tournament player, who is a member of the Bad Dice podcast, and presenter of the Bad Dice daily podcast...

JJ

Okay, has anyone here obtained the August issue of the White Dwarf with the new stuff for the DoC codex?

Basically, it adds the new chariots (they now have three Slaneesh Seeker Chariots, point ranges from 110-220 apiece) and the Soulgrinder. Also, it has updated rules for both the Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch. Also, the most expensive chariot can be led by a Herald of Slaneesh (aka a mount for the herald).

My thoughts from first read: (I'll go down the list inside the little booklet that they released with the issue)

Screamers: They have Multiple Wounds (d3) against Large Targets, and a flyby attack where if they pass over a unit they cause d3 Strength 4 hits that hit on a 4+ and are treated as shooting attacks.
I'm not too worried about that, since I don't really run Stonehorns, Thundertusks, or Giants... but, that's not much of a surprise, really lol. I wouldn't worry about these guys much more than harassment or chaff.

Flamers: The only big difference I see to these guys is WS2, and their shooting attack now has a new stipulation: Basically, each unit that suffers at least one unsaved wounds from the Flamer attacks rolls a d6 (Note: wording looks like if multiple Flamers attack one unit, it still only receives on d6 roll). On a 6, the unit suffers another d3 wounds with no armor save. On a 1, the unit gains Regeneration (6+) for the rest of the game, or gets a +1 to any existing Regeneration.
I think that new rule may cause people to use less Flamers (since, as far as I've seen, everyone uses them). Granted, the Flamers still have Flaming Attacks (a derp-derp), so the Regeneration doesn't bug them, but it's what it could do to the rest of the army. I mean, imagine the Ironguts actually getting a ward save???. I predict, however, that there will still be some units of Flamers, but it may shift away from constant usage.

Seekr Chariots of Slaneesh: Okay, it has 2 riders, 2 steeds with their usual poisoned attacks, armor piercing, and it's daemonic. It has a 6+ armor save, which doesn't concern us, so, honestly, I'm not worried about this one, anymore than I'm worried about any chariots. Which, granted, I've never had a problem with (*Gnoblar Trappers to the Rescue!* lol).

Hellflayer of Slaneesh: Now, take the Chariot, give it an ExalAlluress, which has a special rule where the ExalAlluress gains +1Attack for each wound caused by the Impact Hits, but only for that round of combat. Note that the ExalAlluress has 4 attacks base, as opposed to the regular girls who have 2 apiece. Could be a bit of a problem on the charge, and not fun with a combo charge, but again, I feel we can manage them.

Exalted Seeker Chariots of Slaneesh: The big daddy. Take the Hellflayer. Drop the special rule for the +1 attack thing. Add 2 more riders and 2 more steeds, making this model have 9 attacking units, with a total of 16 attacks (4 poisoned, all armor piercing). Give it 2d6+1 Impact Hits. Drool. Oh, and double the number of Wounds it has (the first two have 4 wounds, this one has 8.) This is definitely the nastiest singleton chariot out there, plus it has the ability to be ridden by a Herald. I'd take care to try and get the charge on this one, as well as to try and deny it the flank. And, honestly, this one could charge through woods and survive a Dangerrain test, so don't expect forests or Gnoblars to initially save you. Of course, the usual courses of action for this are either getting the charge off, or Ironblasters.

Soulgrinder: Hmm. Terror causing, 6S/7T/6W monstrosity that can be upgraded with any of a number of shooting attacks and/or a Daemonbone claw (which replaces attacks with a single s10, multi(d6) wound attack), that can move and shoot (at 8", mind you), that can pick a single target in close combat to do an Initiative test, that, if failed, allows the Soulgrinder to autohit all attacks against that target. And you know how much we love Initiative tests...
IRONBLASTERS. We can't even really chaff block it, because it has shooting attacks that would annihilate our chaff! Granted, if it misfires on its shooting attacks, it takes a wound, but anybody fielding one of those Tzeentch wizards that could access any Lore... Regrowth? O_O' ... Granted, it starts at the same cost as our Stonehorn/TTusk stuff, but can be upgraded to more expensive... So, what do you expect at that point level? granted, we didn't get much at that point level, BUT still... lol

---

Okay, that's the whole shebang. Hope my personal review helps a bit. If anyone else got a copy of the magazine, would you be willing to share your thoughts/insights into these new additions?

And, in case you were wondering, (which I know you weren't), my brother just started a DoC army, so I bought this for him, since he doesn't get to the GW's very often.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. As a Daemons player, I am gutted Flamers have been nerfed; they've gone from automatic choice, to sometimes run.

The Daemonbone Claw on the Soulgrinder will become the standard, as it can be used after the Ironclaw rule...

I suggest anyone interested in the chariots give the Bad Dice daily podcast a listen, as there is a pretty solid list that includes 6 of them, including a nasty Exalted Chariot build that packs 19 attacks excluding impact hits...

JJ

Aren't most of those attacks str3?

That is one of the reason their use seems more psychological than being an actual Uba threat.

I think they are a unit and indeed army list that is highly dependent on the tactical acumen of the user. They will always prefer to be mowing down T3 troops, but the Herald that you have on the Exalted Chariot can be kitted out to help out, and they also make for the perfect Mindrazor target

JJ

... and they also make for the perfect Mindrazor target

Duh! Of course - all we need, another unit with chicks who can mow through our characters like grass... 

Now in which kettle did I put me lil' hellheart?

Ah, very true! :')

JJ

I think Soulgrinders arn't going to be an issue. Sure, its nasty if it gets into combat and it can pretty much punk a Slaughtermaster in one shot, but it is vulnerable to Ironblasters. Just one more reason to take a pair.

Which is a good thing because daemon armies didn't really have much that cannons would be particularly nasty against. The GUO doesn't care about cannons and Fateweaver has a 3++.

The Exalted Seeker chariot is going to be a pain though. Slannesh was always a pain for me and now its got another thing it he/she/it's arsenal.

Chariot does not like big boom ogre chariot...

Yeah, I think the new chariots will be prime targets for the Ironblasters included in almost every list

JJ

Speaking as a daemon player and I've tried out the new rules a bit for the chariots and soul grinder.

The soul grinder isn't a serious threat. Sure, you can shoot Ironblasters at it - if you want to, I am delighted. It means you're not firing at my greater daemon, and the grinder has more wounds. Conversely, the grinder really isn't that big a threat to ogres. It'll maybe cause 3 wounds in combat, on a good day. While you need to watch out for it snipping the head off one of your characters (particularly if you run the slaughtermaster glittering scale/fencers blade combo, one failed I test and you'll be taking the equivalent of a cannonball to the face). It doesn't get thunderstomp and it's very vulnerable to losing combat. It's shooting attack isn't that scary for ogres. You'll be dealing with a stone thrower or a fire thrower. I've been enjoying the fire thrower but ogres aren't a prime target. Unlike the Chaos Dwarf magma cannon that just obliterates ogres, the fire thrower doesn't do D3 wounds.

The chariots are glass cannons. Really alone they're no real threat at all. T4 and next to no armour isn't very intimidating and since their strength got downgraded to 4, they don't really threaten anything particularly tough like ogres. But the danger comes in addition to other things. Once you're talking about combo charges, the chariots add a bit more punch and can clip on the side of a unit. They've got the slaanesh freakish charge range and the chariot spam build is an interesting option (although I haven't tried it). While one chariot isn't much of a threat, hit with four and suddenly you can start seeing units evaporate. For example, if you throw two exalted chariots and two regular chariots, whew, that's suddenly 6D6+4 impacts and 32 regular attacks. Against Ironguts, for example, that will do 12 wounds on average for impacts and another 6 from attacks. That's six ogres dead before you get to swing. It's this sort of terrifying concentration of force that the chariots lend themselves to.

Urk...

Well, as someone who does a fair amount of tournaments with Daemons (they are my travel on a plane army), the flamer nerf is not that big of a deal.  I was mostly using my one unit as a flank combat engagement unit, anyhow, and the Soul Grinder fills that role much better.  The chariots are all junk, with the possible exception of the standard one, which while overpriced at least is functional.  Really, I was debating dumping flamers already before the nerf stick hit them, because they were not really doing much for my army.  The nerf just cemented me swapping in a Soul Grinder in their place. 

An Ogre player should have zero issue dealing with the Soul Grinder, provided he is rocking MMU.  If you are sporting a deathstar loadout, then you are in for some problems, because a Terror Test at -2 from a grinder in the flank while you have a block in the face is going to turn games, so taking it down becomes a priority.

flamers...i thought that in addition to the above, they now suffer penalties for moving and shooting and multi-shotting? They can also no longer stand and shoot! They're also significantly more expensive!!

I'm surprised by some of the comments on this thread as I have never lost to tge current Daemon army either before or aftwr the recent update. We have everything at our disposal to make these games very easy. At a recent tournament I took on a Daemon force in the Blood and Glory mission and had wiped his army off the table by my 4th turn (The game resulted in a 3250- 21 resultthe most crushing victory I think I've ever achieved or even seen!)

My recommendation when facing this army is to defy convention and play defensively, by deploying well back and sniping any GD's with Ironblasters and whittling down the daemonic units with Leadbelchers as well as your offensive magic by the time they close with you, you should be in a position where your combat units can charge and flatten any units that come too close within 1-2 rounds. Lone Sabretusks can be a huge help in buying you an extra turn or 2 of shooting at the daemonic minions. Admittedly most of my experiences come from 2400 point games and there does seem to be a large bulk of daemonic armies that feature the same core units, namely a large horde of bloodletters (whittle these down as much as possible, before they get anywhere near you) backed up by a large block of horrors (usually lead by changeling, and herald - whittling this unit down will reduce the spells available to the daemons considerbly), lead by a GD (all 4 types are fairly easily popped by combined ironblaster fire) with a fiend or 2 for redirecting purposes (these can make a nuisance of themselves and ic engaged in combat will always strike before you, meaning something more substantial than you would generally want to, will need to be commited to dealing with them to stop them getting in your way at the most inopportune times - your lone sabretusks will not be good enough for this), beyond this the characters and remaining points can vary somewhat.

In my experience the Soulgrinder is not at all too difficult to take out in cc so I ignore it in the shooting phase. My opponent usually runs bloodletters in a horde and has a changeling running around to kill my monsters. I target the changeling before anything else, if he touches my units they lose a lot of power.

Sabretusks work extremely well to ensure the charge gets off as the Daemon army (Bloodthirster aside) doesn't move too fast. Leadbelchers are next to useless ime, the points are better spent on maneaters or mournfangs. Speaking of which 4 Mournfangs can make fast work of almost any Daemon unit.

Sabretusks work extremely well to ensure the charge gets off as the Daemon army (Bloodthirster aside) doesn't move too fast.

Ha! You clearly have not played a Slaanesh-based daemon army. Arguably the fastest and most maneuverable army in the game.

You clearly have not played a Slaanesh-based daemon army.

True Story, I have not faced one yet.

On a good day I'll have my cavalry behind your main line turn 1, before you can even move.

I run mostly Slaanesh and Nurgle these days, with a side of Tzeench when I feel the need for magic.  There is a writeup of my soft army at a GT in the Batrep forum, but that was largely an experimental no magic list I wanted to try out.  The speed of a Daemon army built around Slaanesh is one major concern and Chaffe never lives past turn one if I am doing anything remotely correct.  Siren is the other, and it can render positioning against a competent DoC player nearly impossible.

Fortunately, most DoC players never make it out of the Khorne Tzeench phase, so you won't often see more than one token unit of Daemonettes with a Siren herald.  Ogres will always be better than that setup.

I'm loving the Slaanesh #1 spell nowadays, giving a unit stupidity.  Once they are stupid they can't flee when you charge them anymore.  The other thing I've been enjoying is the -2 leadership panic tests when you hit them with the flame template for the soul grinder.  'A unit suffering any casualties must take a panic test' - fire thrower rules.

Hello!

I've just played two games against new Daemons (lost both ;/). And they have changed a lot.

My Opponent's army: (1200 points)

- 25 nurgle deamons with herald (balesword + regen for unit. Lvl 1 Death)
- 6 Khorne dogs with ambush
- 2 Beasts of Nurgle
- 2 Khorne canons (they are chariot-cannons, like our IB)

I had:

Bruiser - General with 3+ Sv and Crown Of Command
Bruiser - BSB with Banner +1M
13 Ogres, ironfists
6 Leadbelchers
1 Sabertusk
1 Ironblaster

Battle:

His canons focused on IB and my main block. I managed to charge them / IB them, but I was lucky (he failed ward saves, had missfire etc.). Still I lost few ogres and IB had one wound left.

His nurgle beasts (one unit) roamed around, looking for flank charge / weaken IB / Leadbelchers. 6 Leadbelchers did 1-2 Wounds to them on avarange (5+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 4+ regen...). He ambushed dogs on a second edge of a table, and his block was hiding behind hard cover. I had no easy target here ;/

When I charged his main block I've learned about new nurgle's feat: -1 to hit in CC. So my ogres Hit on 5+, Wound on 4+ and he had still his regen. Stomps and Impacts helped a lot, but he is a deamon, so he hasn't panicked. Overall I hasn't been able to wipe out this block - we stuck in battle for few turns.

What will counter those nurgle's -1 to hit and 'daemonic ironblasters' best? I've thought about scouting Maneaters (WS 4 and easy reach for those canons). Stonehorn may be an option too. I'm looking for yours suggestions

your mates took double cannon at 1200pts?! jesus!

My mates give me flack for taking 2 IB @ 2400!!!

As to what would counter them. It depends on the meta.

If you're list building, then you need to get the Flaming banne rin your main combat block. Failing that, get a firebelly and dont give him a Great Weapon.

Failing all that - tell your mate "yes the cannons ARE good, but taking 2 of them at 1200pts is cheesy as hell and i may kick you if you try that again!!"

Am I missing something here? I thought you can only get 1 ward save, and ward saves don't stack. So what's the use of Nurgle regen?

Oops shouldn't post when hung over. Duh 4+

So I've just faced the standard Epidemius netlist against a friend a got totally crushed. It really didn't help that I didn't know about the spell combo that gives one of your unit -D3 T then you cast another spell that makes you take  D6 S5 hits and you must then make Toughness tests. Until you pass one, you get rhit by another D6 S5 Hit. He actually rolled -3T, I failed to dispel then he IFed the 2nd spell (got Dimensionnal Cascade but didn't get sucked into the warp).

He inflicted 25 wounds on an Ogre unit which gave his whole army +1S and +1T thanks to Epidemius and that was before I had even moved...

I spent the rest of 2 turns trying to hit him on 5s, then wound on 5s and he even got the +1 to Ward Save from the Reign of Chaos table with re-roll Ward Saves from the tally of Epidemius.

Let's just say that I killed 7 Plaguebearers all game long, even though I combo charged one of his Plaguebearer unit with 4 Mournfangs (9 impact hits), 4 Ironguts and SM + BSB. That charge got 5 dead Plaguebearers.

He had :
Great Unclean One level 4
Epidemius
Herald
2 Blocks of Plaguebearers
2 units of 3 Beasts of Nurgle
1 Canon of Khorne
1 Soulgrinder

I had:
Slaughtermaster of LoTGM with Glitttering Scales, Fencer's Blade and Talisman of Endurance
Firebelly, level 2, Dispel Scroll, Potion of Speed,
BSB, Crown of Command, Ironfist, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm

7 Ironguts with Standard of Discipline
8 Ogres with Ironfist
10 Gnoblars
10 Gnoblars
Sabretusk
Sabretusk
4 Mournfang w/ Gleaming Pennant
4 Leadbelchers
Ironblaster
6 Maneaters with Scout and Poison (3 with Brace of Pistol)

Now I know I don't a lot of things wrong in this particular game, starting with some deployement mistakes, not asking about my opponent's spells and not scrolling his -D3 T spell, charging one unit of Beast of Nurgles instead of going for the double delay on them with Gnoblars + Sabretusk. Still, his list looked extremely hard to deal with. He doesn't have lots of attacks, except from the Beast of Nurgle, but he is extremely resilient, and Epidemius just totally destroyed me simply by being on the board.

How should I have tried to deal with his army?

One thing is for sure, you definitely need to max out on flaming attacks against this list You need the flaming banner, and if you get Flaming Sword of Rhuin (sp?) you need to get that off on the Ironguts asap

JJ

Yeah except for his Beast Of Nurgle, nothing had regen, and I could've played it much better against the Beasts.

I'm not sure it would've changed much to be honest.

High toughness needs Ironguts a plenty as well as maximum nr of cats to stall him and dictate movement.

Shooting is somewhat pointless, though Ironblasters have lots of targets in that army.

Hellheart, allocation and runemaw are also nice.

Yeah I figured that since he played a tournament list I should play one was well. I might just try the double IB + HH + Runemaw once to give him a taste of his own medicine.