Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Daemons of Chaos

Just a hint!
Watch out for the Bloodcrushers! Man they are deadly! This guy used a Herald with the crushers with a banner that deducts 2 to the Ld of any unit within 12".
Also magic is very powerful too.

Well the traditional bait and flee works well vs. Korne. but be careful of the charge range of the blood thirster among others.

Butchers great vs Nurglings & other poisoned attacks.

Watch out for the flamers they can dish out big damage. Either sacrifice gnoblars as a screen or go at them with 2 units of Bulls.

Gut magic leave brain gobbler at home. Magic missiles are great on the Daemonettes as they are T3.

Gnoblars do ok vs Daemonettes as well.

The usual hit them in the front and flanks applies here, but don't expect to win even with a front and flank as the Daemons will stay in combat.

Try to take down the heralds if you get the opportunity as this will get rid of the benefits they confer. So challenge with the Tyrant or a Butcher etc... might work here.

Gorgers can be useful if you charge 2 into the rear of a Daemon block, try to avoid the units with poison attacks however.

They crumble like undead and they don't particularly have good toughness. If you can keep their hard hitters in combat after they charge then they will die. Beat them in combat and those bloodcrushers etc. die a terrible death. Skadoosh!

I'm sorry Bob, I'm going to go against some of your points here.

you can't do bait and flee as khorne units don't have frenzy, that makes them more reliable for a daemon player.

if you are going to use butchers for nurglings, then the daemon player is doing something wrong.
The nurglings should be behind the ogre line and do nothing, so you can't bait and flee ( fleeing into enemy unit)
They can do that as they are scouts.

magic missiles won't do that much, you'd better make sure you use your spells for your own units.

gnoblars suck against most daemons especially daemonettes who are faster (Mv6)

Killing the heralds is the best advise there is indeed.

Hunter with Greedy Fist/Long Strider is a useful addition.  He can make a Greater Daemon or a Daemon Prince into a much less effective Mage and can make a Herald lose all of it's magic ability, even if it has Ward and Regen.  He flees 3D6 which is enough that he might escape against the fliers and has a good chance of getting away from units on foot.  The Hunter's shooting will also prove invaluable.  A Khorne Herald on Juggernaught in a unit of Blood Crushers is wide open to randomization from the Harpoon Gun and his 0+ armor save will mean nothing.  If you don't hit him you still hit a 70 point Blood Crusher.  SabreTusks are also effective against Seekers of Slaanesh if they don't have a herald in them.  Seekers can take control of a game away from you and need to be dealt with.

For killing non-Khornate Heralds I'm going to use this Tactic.  Unit of Yhetees in front with single file ManEaters in the back.  Place my Tyrant in the Maneaters.  2 Yhetees attack the Herald, 1 against the Champion.  I hopefully kill one or the other.  Attack the Herald first if you kill him attack the unit with the 3rd Yhetee and if you don't attack the champion.  If the Herald is alive you want to make sure the Champion is dead so that he can't challenge the Tyrant in the unit behind.  The Yhetees succeed or fail and hopefully they escape.  The Bearers probably pursue and head into the Tyrant.  Stubborn should hold you in combat long enough for a good flank charge and your Tyrant should kill you the Herald before you charge in.  I wouldn't even charge unless the Nurgle Herald is dead.

@Oni: this is what happens:
yhetees lose because they don't do 5+ wounds ( hitting on 4's and a 4+ wardsave)
They flee and probably the horror/bearer unit overruns into the general's unit.
and the next turn they fight first and you hold on a 8+ stubborn test
Then another unit comes in the flank of the horrors/bearers.

count this:
3 yhetees 195
1 tyrant 300
3 maneaters 270
2 leadbelchers 110 ( cheapest real option )
that's almost 800 points to take out 500 points.
you are going to lose it
a somewhere else
b probably that battle too with all the poison attacks they have and hoping that a bloodthirster of something else doesn't charge you.

I don't expect the Yhetees to win, I expect them to kill the Herald.  The Yhetees aren't likely to be lost victory points.  I only need 1 ManEater.

Sorry if I was unclear but you'll have to rewrite your argument because none of your points were what I meant.

A flank unit can be whatever I don't really care and you are talking about all of these units doing only that all game long.  Not the case and if I don't lose any of my units and I kill that one I should be up on victory points.

I'll support Lexy's argument - even though we have had this discussion before.

I see several flaws in your idea. Firstly, it is a bit too complicated, meaning that it will be hard to execute in real life. Secondly, you will not kill Nurgle herald with less than a Tyrant (so forget the the Yhetees). However, if your goal was to kill the champion, that's another thing. If that's the case, I don't believe it is worth to go that far (assassination/suicide style charges) just to kill a champion.

If everything works out perfectly, and he doesn't pursue into your Tyrant, you get to charge. Wohoo! Or? Let's say you are entirely unmolested (he hasn't magicked your unit at all and it hasn't seen combat before). You charge, and challenge. He declines(!). What are you going to do now? Swing at the Plaugebearers, sure. You will lose combat, and probably hold. It's his turn now. He could counter charge or just do nothing. Assuming that you don't get back-up, your Tyrant will eventually break ('cause you ain't winning against a combat resolution of 5+). You may get away, but what's the point?

Summary: You take lots and lots of risks (with no real benefit), just to see the Herald hide in the back ranks, and suddenly it's turned into the (stubborn) Tyrant versus a fully ranked unit. Not so fun, right?

Since your purpose was to hold the unit, all that I said is not of great importance. However, what happens if the Daemon player gets reinforcements first (which he probably will, because it's his turn right afterwards)? Even if you get into his flanks first, his Plaugebearers will still have regeneration, and you probably won't get the 1+ for flank (you still deny his rank bonus though).

The point of killing the Champion is to avoid challenges with the Tyrant's combat.  I just don't want to fight a regen champion and give the herald another turn of life.  If the champion is dead then I don't challenge and I can put my attacks on the herald.

I'm all about complicated, risks not as much so since I know I can't rely on my rolling.

Yes, yes I see it now... You don't challenge... Well it would work that way.

except ( I love to say except to a plan) when the daemon player sees your plan and thinks: "hmm I'll challenge then I only get a Tyrant in stead of two models"
That's normally what I do if I want to keep outnumber or have alot of attacks directed at one character.

I mean to put the tyrant in a single file unit of maneaters so that the maneaters are not in combat.  That way a challenge could really only hurt him because he'd be taking away two plague bearer attacks.

I intend to try this tactic if I feel it is necessary.  I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I bet the daemon player doesn't overrun and let you charge, then have the strike last item on you and you are in big trouble.

Gnoblars
I disagree with Lexy's comment that gnoblars are useless vs Daemonettes, these T3 Daemons are a prime target to be shot at (also prevents their strike first).

To me Gnoblars are throw away units and if they tie up opponents units for a few turns or draw fire they have done their job. If they die who cares 40pts lost (48 if 8 trappers).

Many opponents will tend to ignore the gnoblars which allows them to throw their sharp stuff.
20 shots 5's to hit 5's to wound vs Daemonettes, not to shabby.

If you get your range right you are 7-8"s away, the Daemonettes charge you flee and have a good chance of getting away that turn.

Deploying in or near a forest helps here as well (Trappers or Fighters).

Baiting and Fleeing
This tactic still works vs. Korne and here is why.

You move up to that 12" range from your opponent if he decides not to charge you get the charge on the following turn, admittedly you may not get your impact hits on the following turn.

If he does charge you then have the option of holding and losing or fleeing as per usual. This is when your second line of Ogres springs into action (IGs, Tyrant etc).

The trickiest bait and flee is vs. a Bloodthirster or other very fast troops but it can be done. Maybe try this with the Yhetees but expensive loss if it fails.

Tyrant builds
Longstrider may be useful here as well giving the extra speed your Tyrant may need to either escape pursuit or get that charge in.

Yhetees
These are by far our best flankers so these guys should rarely be hitting a unit front on. Patience and careful maneuvering should ensure a flank or rear charge by these babies.

Gorgers
As I use 2 of them in my tourney Armies I believe they should hit the rear of single wound units like Daemonettes, Blood Letters etc.. this is where Killing blow comes in Ignoring the Regen Saves.
Although the Gorgers strike 2nd vs Daemonettes the Str 3 vs T5 means the gorgers will still get their attacks for 1 or more combat rounds. The key here is using both on the 1 unit to prevent return attacks on them (doesn't work on strike first troops).

Butchers
It goes without saying leave Brain gobbler at home. Our magic missile is almost useless maybe use vs T3 targets. The Bang Stick may be useful vs flamers and other smaller units.

I would be trying to get Regen on the Ogre units as much as possible to even up the odds a bit. Stubborn and Strength can also be handy (especially Str on the Bulls for inflicting more wounds).

If you send in a Butcher or 2 vs. Nurglings etc.. ensure they are with armored ogres (IGs etc) to ensure a save vs the poison attacks.

Summary
When fighting Daemon armies with MSU Ogres it is important to get as much as possible onto a single Daemon unit. Try to pick them off 1 at a time while keeping the other units occupied. Flanking is essential and if it doesn't happen our ogres will generally lose the Battle.

BTW allowing Nurglings to deploy in your rear means you have blundered during your deployment. The 10" out of sight rule means this shouldn't happen vs. MSU ogres.

I agree with Oni, Greedy Fist could have its uses vs. the Magic heavy Daemon armies.

Problems vs Daeomons There are so many its hard to list them all.

Poison attacks? Armored ogres
Skull taker? solution avoid getting characters into combat with this unit.
Flamers? Use Stubborn & T5 spell?? and/or charge the unit with 2 units?
How to bring down a Bloodthirster with Obsidian Armor? try to bait and flee it away from the combats? give it cheap units to destroy? take it down with IGs & Tyrant?? or kill the rest of the daemon army avoiding the Blood Thirster as much as possible.

I think Bob and I could have an arguement all night ( are you old enough to drink beer Bob? because we should )

Baiting the bloodthirster is a bit naive, because he doesn't have to charge and can set himself up to charge any number of units he sees( being a large target and flying.

Letting gnoblars flee for daemonettes is a risky thing:
the daemonettes don't have to charge, they strike first with an herald and can setup 1 inch away from the gnoblars that might ruin your whole plan.
How will 20 gnoblars shoot at daemonettes? from a hill? in one large rank?
if you put a single rank of gnoblars in front of your ogres, you might be in for a big magic surprise.
because they will be march blocked and that makes your ogres go 4 inch every turn.

regeneration is handy but the MR2 will be important here with all the lore of fire spells you might get ( provided you have enough magic to get some spells through.

Gorgers are hands down a good option against any army.

Gnoblars
Many opponents will tend to ignore the gnoblars which allows them to throw their sharp stuff.
20 shots 5's to hit 5's to wound vs Daemonettes, not to shabby.

How will you get 20 shots? Do you field them 10x2?

You got it Flogger 2 ranks of 10 Gnoblars double shotting or even better on a Hill.

Ok the Daemonettes can certainly come up that close and it could be bye bye gnoblars if not in a Forest. If in a forest retreat 3 inches and they cant be charged.

If you hold vs the Daemonettes you have got them to waste another turn chasing the Gnobbies down.

It is very situational but the point I was making was they can do some damage to the Daemonettes before they die.

Lexy said "regeneration is handy but the MR2 will be important here with all the lore of fire spells you might get  provided you have enough magic to get some spells through."

Not sure what this is about Lexy as Ogres don't get fire based spells?

True about retreating in a forest but remember that you won't be able to shoot either from that spot. I would ignore your Gnoblars then and move on. Then you can move out and shoot the turn after but by then I would be long gone with the Movement the Daemonettes have.

Just my thought off course.

Any attention that gnoblars receive is part of my Strategy they are expendable nuisance only units not match winners in my eyes.

Although a unit of 8 trappers managed to defeat a unit of Empire Machine Gun Light Cavalry on the weekend worth more than double their points.

Ye the Blood Thirster is a nasty piece of work and hard to deal with I must admit. What successful strategies have other people used?

a double team of toothcrackered ironguts has worked - the bloodthirster charges one unit, does all his damage but they still test on Ld8 and should hold - then a second unit arrives, possibly even witha  bull charge and the combined attacks and flank and outnumber can force the combat our way.

Lexy means that the Magic Resistance 2 from the Trollguts will be important as well as the Regeneration, provided that you can get any magic through.

That's what I think, at least.

I think that something you should be aiming to do is get the gnoblars 1" away from the Daemonettes and dare him to charge you.  Keep a flanker unit of ogres 12" back from the gnoblars.  If he can't get some other unit deal with the gnoblars he will have two options.  Charge or get pelted with sharp stuff.  When he charges flee.  You almost automatically get run down but that was the point.  Now the Daemonette unit is 12" down the field and out of position and set up for a flank charge.  Gnoblars are expendable so why not use them as such.

Are ye gotcha re the Magic Resistance 2.

Ye Wildcard that idea seems good, but I find the Blood thirster tends to beat the unit first round of combat maybe if its stubborn it has a good chance of holding. my opponent tend s to remove these spells on key units in his magic phase. 

I agree with Oni but the problem with Daemonettes is they strike first so I like to magic and/or shoot them as much as possible prior to combat.

Bob: the MR2 for ogres is more important than the regeneration, because all Tzeentch models have flaming attacks and lor of fire is a nice spell against ogres with master of sorcery

I must admit me being a noob to ogres I had overlooked the Magic Resist 2 of that Regen spell.

Just noticed that nugrle deamons have a lower I than us ogres. How much of an advantage is this?

I would say it helps since you will be stuck in combat for a few rounds due to the ward save and regen.

On the other hand you would engage would normally engage with your hard hitters being your Ironguts with great weapons, so unless Plaguebearers have a great weapon too you would allways strike last.

and plaguebearers don't have great weapons.

true that. So maybe bulls become a better option against them. Hmmm... will crunch the numbers when I have time

Ye Bulls with extra HW's or iron Fists giving more attacks?

ok here we go:
***
First round:
3 guts make a charge. No bull charge. 9 attacks of which, 4,5 hit, of which 3,75 wound. 1,25 will be saved, leaving 2,5 plaguebearers dead.
2,5 strike back. 1,25 hit, 0,4166 wounds(plus 0,208 poisoned wounds). 0,07 are saved by armour. This leaves 0,21+0,41=0,62 wounds.

Second round:
bearers go first: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 0,8333 wounds(plus 0,41666 poisoned wounds). 0,13888 wounds are saved. This leaves 0,41666+0,69=1,11 wounds
guts: 9 attacks of which, 4,5 hit, of which 3,75 wound. 1,25 will be saved, leaving 2,5 plaguebearers dead.

after 2 rounds the guts loose 1,73 wounds vs 5 on the plaguebearers.

***
now bulls:
3 bulls charge, no bull charge. 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound. 1 is saved, so 2 wounds.
3 attacks back, 1,25 hit, 0,625 wounds. 0,25 hits are poisoned resulting in 0,25 wounds. Total: 0,875 wounds.

second round:
bulls first.  12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound. 1 is saved, so 2 wounds.
3 attacks back, 1,25 hit, 0,625 wounds. 0,25 hits are poisoned resulting in 0,25 wounds. Total: 0,875 wounds.

after 2 rounds the bulls loose 1,75 wounds vs 4 wounds to the bearers.

***

Going purely on numbers killed ironguts are still the best option. However it should be noted that the irongut casualties start going up after the first round of combat. They loose twice as many wounds on the second round of combat.
Bulls are more stable in their over time losses. They also throw out more attacks, giving more possibilities to roll good. Bull and gut casualties are relatively the same.

I think it comes down to luck mostly. Taking the bulls in this case gives you the advantage that you get to bash skulls before your opponent. Your guts will have to take the punishment first in every round of combat after the first. Since we are an army mostly oriented towards winning a combat in the first round ironguts would still be the best option I think. Though bulls can do well just the same.

Just my 2 cents. If anyone feels like commenting by all means do.

Ogur haven't you missed out the Plaguebearers Regen save?

The regen save only happens if they are joined by a hero. Basically it cuts these bearer figures in half nicely showing why said hero should be killed at the first opportunity.

so you ignore the fact that the unit has a herald and a champion?
I am really in love with the plague bearers / herald combination because of it's save and the items the herald could get.

You also seem to ignore the fact the chance of ogres getting a second turn of fighting ( even if they do 3 wounds they lose with 2, and there's a big chance of failing a breaktest.)

I just crunched the kill numbers. nothing more. And I'm not comparing characters versus bulls, I'm only comparing our regulars, bulls and ironguts, with plaguebearers. I'm not looking at who will loose or win combat, as there are a lot more factors involved in that. Combat is won on strategy. And figuring out which regular troops have the best chance of fighting an opponent's unit is a part of winning combat. It is however not the only part as we all know. Otherwise this game would have simply been a matter of putting unit anti A against unit A to defeat it. Rock/paper/scissors.
It would not be a proper comparison to have heroes in the mix. For instance give the bearers their herald and take a hero with the brahmir statue on our side. Analysis can only be done by comparing measurable quantities against eachother.
I could add a points per wound into the mix, giving the equal amount of points to the ogres and the deamons, but that is a situation that hardly ever occurs. And doing so would show that bulls and guts kill more points then they suffer. That could lead to the conclusion that our infantry is superior. It might be superior in combat, but would not win the fight on it's own.
Obtaining statistical results is easy. Interpreting them however is not. That is why I try to keep the variables as few as possible to get a result that will show something worthwhile, something that has not been effected by outside factors and something comprehensible.

It would not be a proper comparison to have heroes in the mix.

Well, only sort of. Sure the heroes thing throws the numbers, but your scenario is basic troops v basic troops. Unfortunately this will never happen. It would be ludicrous as a daemon player not to put a herald in a unit of plaguebearers- the unit is just too good with that additional model not to take it.

Yes, I haven't seen a Plaguebearer unit without a Herald yet (maybe a few 10-man squads for minimum core in pure Nurgle armies), and I doubt I will see it soon. It is worth it to buy a herald every time.

I never said anything about this being a game situation. Just a unit comparison. Which can be made for other combinations just the same. And to start with I was only looking at the impact of having a better intiative then the bearers. Nothing more.

Well dealing with Daemons poisoned attacks.

   B B IG                   B= Butcher IG = Iron gut
 N N N N                    N = Nurglings

Well I have found that poisoned attacks can rip my Ogres apart, so although expensive the set up above can minimise the damage on a unit. In this case the Nurglings will only get 2 bases to wound with poison (Butchers being Immune) and the IGs at least get a 5+ AS. Coupled with a Regen save or T5 this will further reduce the damage we receive.

I would use the (naked: bulls as bait and flee avoid combat unless getting flank/rear charge) vs. poisoned attack units if possible (due to bulls having no AS).

Another more Cheesey way to deal with Daemons is a Hireling Level 2 Wizard with Lore of Light. I'm thinking use a Goblin Shaman to represent a Gnoblar Wizard?

The default Lore of light spell does D6 Str 6 hits (Flaming Attacks) vs. Daemons and Undead so no Regen Saves.

So I've played against a few daemon lists now, and all of them have had a unit of Flamers. And I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with them.

A 22" threat range and a unit of 6 is going to be averaging ~21 (6-36 possible) shots. BS4 means hitting on best of 3s, worst of 5s against us. S4 means they'll be wounding on 4s for the most part, and the -1 to Sv pretty well eliminates our armor (IG's get a 6+). 2 wounds means that a pair of Lead Belchers aren't going to be able to take it down, and the lead belchers will have to eat a volley of fire before they can get their shots off.

I can only really see 2 options. 1) Throw a single unit of bulls at it, give them a musician, and hope they can offer up just enough threat to keep the flamers busy for a round or two to let your main force close with the enemy. 2) Throw enough force at that one unit to ensure that something makes it into combat with them.

Most of the time what I saw was 1 volley at long range, and another volley as a stand and shoot, averaging 5 wounds for each (4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, on 20 shots). Which means that a single Ogre unit charging them will not make it to combat. They will likely have to pass a leadership test after taking the first volley. And even if 1, maybe 2 models make it into combat, the can not produce enough wounds (hitting on 3, wounding on 4, 5+ WSv) to prevent attacks back and will likely lose combat.

Putting 2 units at them raises the likelihood of making it. But on average they are going to do enough wounds to force a Ld test. So if you fail the Ld test on the first round of approach, the second unit will eat at least 1 volley of flames before getting into combat, which means another Ld test and another chance to fail.

So realistically, it take 3 units to be guaranteed a victory over the flamers.

So, what have your experiences been? And how do you deal with them?

-Rick

Scraplauncher? Longer Range with S3 and KB. KB gets around the 2 wounds nicely although with To4 without the KB we are wounding on a 5+. Template is big enough to hit all of them if you call it right and get a hit.

I haven't played against them yet (but I did field 3 once, and I like them).
Throw a tyrant at them (with longstrider)? On the charge they'll be hitting on 5's, or 6's if they suffer multiple shot penalties (I can't remember), so on average your tyrant will take 7 hits, of which 2 will wound (unless you get toothcracker, then I'd expect 1 wound) and you have a 5+ save. Once you hit you have the tenderiser, which will make short work of them, and makes use of their 2 wounds.
Once in combat you'll be getting 3-4 wounds, and probably kill that many. The unit of 6 costs 210 points so it's only about 90 points that you are down in terms of unit v unit. The only downside is that you have to use your tyrant to do this and you are almost guaranteed a wound or two. And you might be stuck there for a round.
But don't treat flamers like other shooty units. They aren't a daemonic version of way watchers. Flamers are for all intents and purposes a hammer unit (albeit one that is best at range), so counter them with your heavy hitters.

Scraplauncher? Longer Range with S3 and KB. KB gets around the 2 wounds nicely although with To4 without the KB we are wounding on a 5+. Template is big enough to hit all of them if you call it right and get a hit.

Unfortunately they still get the ward save.

And? They do against Tenderizer as well.

Which I of course forgot about. So it'll probably be only 2 dead (which is still 4 wounds, versus their 0-1 and 1 for outnumber). It'll be a long fight. You'd probably want some toothcrackered ironguts. Heck, a unit of toothcrackered ironguts might stand a chance alone.

Tooth crackered Iron Guts would still likely have to pass 2 leadership test to get 1 model in combat. :/

-Rick

I would use Toothcracker as mentioned on a couple of Ogre units then try to chase the flamers away.

Magic missiles and Bang Stick the Flamers is probably the best solution. Combined with a scraplauncher if there is one and maybe BOH or Tooth crackered leadbelchers.

Unfortunately, we can't chase them away All daemons are ItP, so no options to make them panic, they just sit there and take the loses til you can kill every last one of them.

I might switch back to the Scrap launcher and see how that goes. It's been kinda hit or miss for me. On the bright side, it's only self destructed on turn 1 twice.

-Rick

Sorry (by chase them away) I meant kill them in Hand to hand with the Bulls, but you will need 2 units of Bulls to succeed however.

IMHO Reg06 has it. I have played against pure Tzeench. Tyrant vs Flamers took 2 close combat rounds and he got a couple of wounds. Exactly as expected. Two units of 3 Maneater vs Horrors were plain fun to watch. 2 Hunters with Beastkiller kept the Lord of Change occupied long enough for the rest of the army to turn around and hunt him down.

Send your Tyrant to the Flamers. They are worth it.

What about charging them with the Scrappie?  I'm terrible at Mathhammer, but seems like a decent option to me.  Shoot them while moving closer to them, then Bam!  Kick them up a notch.

Send your Tyrant to the Flamers. They are worth it.

Awesome... what do we do at 1999 points or less?

What about charging them with the Scrappie?  I'm terrible at Mathhammer, but seems like a decent option to me.  Shoot them while moving closer to them, then Bam!  Kick them up a notch.

On average you'll get 3 S5 impact hits, of which 2 will wound, and 2 S5 attacks from the rhinox, which if you are lucky will result in another wound. Which means you have 3 wounds to push past the ward save. So you might kill one. Then it's their attacks back, and they have outnumber. Plus your scrappie will take some nasty damage charging in.

WHat's wrong with Maneaters here? Surely now they seem like a good option! Sure only T4 and 3W as well, But they're Immune to psychology so those Leadership tests won't bother them at all, and IF they lose a combat they're Stubborn anyway for break tests. Bull charge from three of these fellas (or ladies), S5 should even kill one before combat including their ward.

With an easy 5 attacks each with AHW, 15 attacks at WS4 and S5 will result in quite a few wounds! 1/3 of those saved. Combat lost, Daemonic Instability pops them where they stand. They would have to take the stand and shoot though...

Scraplauncher against daemons. First we should not forget that Spell 1 and Spell 5 of Tzeench can potentially hit with S7. This is not good news. They are capable of casting Spell 1 so often that I have seen daemons taking out war machines by destroying its T7 rather than taking out the crew more than once.

If they shoot at long distance and as stand an shoot they do roughly 4 wounds to our Scraplauncher. With impact hits and Rinox/Gnoblar attacks we do 3 wounds. Our base is larger than a Tyrants base so we get back 6 attacks scoring roughly one wound. With outnumber they loose by 1. Flamers have I4 we have I3 and I2. So we should expect our Scrappie to go in close combat round 2 with 3-4 Flamers still around.  

They would have to take the stand and shoot though...

That's the problem. I wouldn't want to throw my maneaters at them. Sure I know they will tear through the flamers with 15 WS4 S5(6) attacks, and won't flee from the shooting, but they cost twice as much as an irongut and are just as fragile. I will lose at least one 90 point model, maybe more. And since I will lose one I'll be knocked down to 10 S5 attacks. They just aren't well protected enough for me to risk them against flamers.

You make a good point.


I'd probably do the simple 3 Bulls with AHW. It will hold them up at least so that they aren't shooting the important things, and if you are lucky enough to get into combat, they have a decent chance!

Hmmm... we can try to magic the things with Bonecruncher and the Bangstick since magic negates Daemon Saves still IIRC, or we can try to take the Flamers with a carefully positioned unit of Trappers. I guess a Scraplauncher could work, but it would be more likely to fail to inflict major damage to the Flamers.

Edit: Never mind the Magic bit *grumbles about stupid daemon saves*

Magic no longer negates Daemon ward saves

-Rick

Thinking about it this question is silly. How do you deal with souped up Blood Knights? Or a Star Dragon? Or a Bloodthirster?

You just do the game presents you with options, and the player presents you with mistakes. The dice then go on to present you with luck...half the time.

That doesn't mean you can't come up with strategies on how to deal with them.

Some of the toughest opponents I go against can see my army as we're deploying and know exactly what units/tools he has to deal with everything I field. They will know how round 3 will go after watching the movement and magic from round 1. It is that kind of foresight that wins them games, instead of counting on their opponent to mess up or hoping for dice to show them a favor.

-Rick

Yep, the Flamers... they are the MVP in my new Tzeentch daemon army.  Even if they hit most of the time on 5s (because they moved and they are at long range), they have so many shots that they can seriously damage threatening units... like in my previous game, they killed 3 out of 5 DE Cold Ones in one salva. After that, the Cold Ones prefered charge an insignificant Horror unit instead of suffering a stand-and-shot charge response.

They are also solid in CC because of To 4 and 2 wounds... and they all have 2 attacks at str5... the problem for them is that they are have WS 2 against which Ogre hit on 3s

I believe the best way to deal with them is have them in CC fast in the game... Yhetees are fast enough, can ignore terrain and force Flamers to hit them on 5s... the problem is obviously the flamming attacks...

How about using Trappers?  Granted you will need some luck with them killing flamers, but if you can divert flamers for a turn or two then they aren't shooting any of your more expensive stuff.

If you charge Flamers with Gnoblar Trappers it if very likely the S&S reaction will kill all of them which takes no effort and uses up none of the Flamer's player's turn. If you shoot at them from range you might get lucky and kill one... but that doesn't stop him from shooting bigger threats.

I didn't mean charge them.  That would be suicide.  I meant get close throw 16-20 sharp stuff at them and hope for the best.  Or screen your bigger units from the flames with them (for a turn at least).

Sorry... Divert is a word I normally hear in conjunction with Close Combat, not Ranged. You meant divert their attention, not divert them after CC into another direction.

They could be used to screen for a turn but it would have to be a critical turn because that is all you are likely to get.

As for the 16 shots. bS 3 so 4+. Multishot - 5+. Skirmishers - 6+. So you get 2.666666 hits on average. S2 vrs To 4 means 6+ again. .444444 Wounds. After the 5+ WS .296296296. So the odds of even killing one are rather low from shooting.

Belchfist Beastkiller said
Thinking about it this question is silly. How do you deal with souped up Blood Knights? Or a Star Dragon? Or a Bloodthirster?

Knights are easy to deal with Magic missiles (ignore AS's) followed by bait and flee tactics.

The point of this thread is that Daemons are new and developing Tactics to use vs them is important for Ogre Players.

No kidding, Bob. It's not like there is a whole section of the Stronghold dedicated to, "Tactics against <race>." threads. I think that would point to the question and topic not being silly.

I realise there is a general Tactics thread but sometimes its worth discussing a particular unit in detail rather than clogging up the anti Daemon thread per say.

Until they whip put the banner of Sundering, which maybe half of all Daemon armies will have

just a note:  In teh recent warhammer doubles tournament GW rules that the tzeentch power "master of sorcery" would NOT allow tzeentch heralds to know all the spells from the lore of Tzeentch.  You roll for tzeentch spells as normal - and then choose to either keep them or to choose a rulebook lore and know all the spells from that lore.

ok I've played chaos daemons about 25 times in the last week, and i cant seem to win. I'm not a bad player, I'm some what new. the only people i cant beat are chaos daemons (Owener of the store he's been playing for a long time) and Bretonnians. i was using a death star but then i started using for four or five units of five bulls full command in a 2000pt game. I've tried what seems like every thing but chaos daemons have a answers for everything, they have saves out the butt better strength, better WS, and there cheap. please help

i_suck_182, while your post is semi legible, and I can get the gist of what you are saying (I believe) you do need to up hold a minimum standard of post quality here. Which means using proper punctuation and grammar.

i hope thats better, I'm sorry. i think way faster then i type sorry.

Yes, thank you.

Its not a matter of being a bad player vs Daemons they are tough and we cant do much vs. their regen saves.

By using Bulls with XHW or IF gives us extra attacks and therefore more wounds for the Daemons to save. For their rank & file troops we don't need the Ogre Club -2 AS as much as more hits (due to their Regen & Ward Saves).

Vs. Daemon poison Attacks maybe use the Iron Fist as a shield to give your troops a 4+ AS at least.

That information is in the definition of "Immune to Psychology"(p.71) .  A unit that is ItP automatically passes panic tests(as well as a few others). 

Since braingobbler causes a panic check, his ItP demons auto-pass the check, regardless of the -3 modifier.  Perhaps they even like to watch your butcher sit there and munch on grey matter.

Yeah...I re-read the rules and I apologize for any misleading there.  I concur that Braingobbler against Demons is useless now 8th Ed is here.

Wrong, if you use the Balesword you cannot use the Flail, the flail is a 2 handed weapon. If anyone is trying to use the flail for the bonus strength and the balesword for wounds you are being cheated, simple as that. Daemonic Gifts make no change to the fact that a sword is a sword, whether composed of metal or magical aether it is still a "physical" item that is wielded.

That's incorrect. The Balesword stacks with flail for the first round. Unless this has changed since 8th edition but I doubt it.

Bloodletter hordes with heralds will walk over anything we can throw at them, especially when buffed by lore of life, T5 on bloodletters is horrible and the ability to raise them back and yuck.. If you're playing VS daemons I'd recommend playing ETC restrictions so you'll have some chance. Daemons only got stronger with 8th edition so they need to be nerfed somewhere. 5+ ward save is horrible as you can never ignore it (the other trickster's shard might help you there but not a lot).
Also, they'll nearly always be steadfast VS Ogres and stubborn daemons are the most powerful infantry out there.

Seriously I can't see any way of dealing with them in uncomped environments.

Wrong, if you use the Balesword you cannot use the Flail, the flail is a 2 handed weapon. If anyone is trying to use the flail for the bonus strength and the balesword for wounds you are being cheated, simple as that. Daemonic Gifts make no change to the fact that a sword is a sword, whether composed of metal or magical aether it is still a "physical" item that is wielded.

Actually, it's right. The abilities are daemon gifts that are applied to the daemon and whatever weapon/equipment they are using.

Answered in the Daemon FAQ...Quote"Q. Does a Daemonic gift work in combination with other equipment, magic items, or Daemonic gifts? For example, the Balesword with flail-would it combine the +2 strength bonus with the effects of the Balesword? A) Yes, except for saving throws, where the best saving throw of each type (armor,ward or regen) must be used.

Whoops...didn't see it already answered....   Well here's the specific place to look for it...lol

Deathstar units can still kick demon bottom. My IG star took out a 50 strong horde BL with Herald BSB over about 6 combat rounds. He couldn't deal with my rank of three T6 characters (plus the occassional regen or T7 buff). He even got mindrazor off on the unit and miasma to reduce the WS and still didn't kill anyone.

Other tricksters shard is a must have against demons. As is a Slaughter master as if they are not running a huge horror block or LoC then they will most likely be at a lvl2 so you get a bonus on casting and dispelling. Also get in a 2+ flaming ward too for flamers/horrors and anything Khorne with the flaming sword.

Scraplaunchers can also put some holes in those hordes too.

Remembering that Daemons fight well in hordes and generally have low toughness, praise the scraplauncher or +1 strength spells that we can cast! Heck, even gnoblars might dish out some damage against a BL-horde.
Whittling down their numbers before combat is kind of a necessity.

Destroy their herald at all cost! Daemons become powerhouses with them. The only exception is, strangely enough, Khorne. Once you hold their initial attack you might want to kill the herald because of it's strength, but the locus won't matter at all anymore.

Against daemons, a hunter might very well be viable. Give him longstrider, Dragonbane Gem and sword or battle, and he is very potent at smashing through flamers. You could unleash his sabretusks at a combat you could have trouble with, giving you a solid +2/3 (charge and flank/rear) aswell as some wounds they might do. That will really help you.

With the common toughness of 3, bulls become more cost effective than Ironguts. Having many units of bulls with definitely give you an edge over less units including Ironguts.

As far as a tyrant goes, once buffed, he could just smash a greater daemon in combat. His stats are very good indeed. Just don't send him in solo like that. Though he'll probably live until he gets into combat, he probably won't afterwards.

That's some advice anyway ^^

Hello to you all Ogre folk!

I'm LAV-Kitsune-, the one who answered the Bellowers "Thoughts on the Ogre Kingdoms 8th edition", on behalf of daemons perspective. My main army is daemons and currently I do not own any Ogres, I thought however that it would be only fair to offer some tips and tricks against daemons though, as Ogres really have hard time there. Not being an ogre player myself, I might not know all the tricks Ogres can use, but I try to offer some info on what is the most important and dangerous things Daemons can bring against Ogres, so that we all could have more exciting games. New armybook is coming out soon to Ogres, but I would believe that it wont change anything too much that none of the following would apply anymore.

Many daemon armies in todays metagame consist of following elements: Great Unclean one or Bloodthirster as a general, Tzeentch herald commonly using whole lore of light as a caster, tons of Bloodletters in core choices and flamers and/or fiends in rare section. There is ofcourse many other set ups too, but by viewing tournament armies and choices what other players tend to pick these are all very common picks. I will separate each to a small section and tell about them in detail.


GREATER DAEMONS
Usually the most reliable way of fighting them is not to fight at all. And by this I mean that they should be either bind down with steadfast anvils (like Gnoblars) or shot down from afar (scraplauncher, leadbelchers). Bloodthirsters, Keepers of Secret and Lords of Change all either fly or move 10" so do not plan on making a "killer character" that can kill them. Experienced players can easily see if you are trying to catch their greater daemon and with movement of 20" they can easily your attacks and pick fights that they prefer. Using characters against greater daemons is quite a gamble too, as they can in worst case kill even a Tyrant in a single round of combat, for example Bloodthirster deals 4,15 wounds oer round to Tyrant without ward saves, Keeper could deal even 5,25 with soul hunger and Great Unclean one is most dangerous character killer of them all and you should avoid him at all costs. Unclean will likely use balesword, an item that will make his hits automatically wound and cause D6 wounds per wound and can have a gift that makes you always strike last and lose your ASF. So he will pretty much always chop rank and file ogres to bits without much effort and can kill any character in game in one round, even if it has ASF. To make things even worse GuO always gets one spell and can switch it to his signature spell, that only needs 3+ to cast and drops Ws, S, T, I and A of all models in base contact to 1.

This all being said, do not try to kill them in combat. Daemons usually use fiends, nurglings or furies to destroy war machines, but since scraplaunchers can actually fight pretty well, they can defend themselves against these threats and try to snipe the greater daemons from afar. It is hard to force greaters to combat with a unit that you want due to their high speed, but Unclean one (M6) can be caught with gnoblars with some good planning atleast and he is the easiest daemon of all to bind this way. Most other daemons will deal roughly 6-9 kills per round so even Gnoblars cannot hold them down for too long. Iron guts might sound good idea against greater daemons, but remember that most greaters have so high Ws that thanks to this even 6 iron guts will likely deal only 2 wounds per turn on unbuffed greater where greaters strike first and likely deal 5-7 wounds to iron guts. Most reliable ways of killing greaters in combat is not by wounds, but with static combat resolution and durability, so ogre bulls with 2 ranks, BSB and a banner, buffed up with regeneration and +1T stand much better chance than trying to brute force the daemons down. If Daemons lose combat, they will likely melt away.


HERALDS
There is only one herald that is top priority on your kill list and that is Herald of Tzeentch. This fellow is bit hard to kill though as he likely lurks behind all the bloodletters and takes Look out sir cover from them among his normal 4+ ward. He has only T3 and 2W though, so scouting gnoblars with some luck can take him down. Beware of the fiends and furies that might be protecting the herald though. Yhetees are not all that bad either if you get them to arrive at right time as they can get to the herald from behind the lines. These heralds will most commonly use lore of light and take fullest of its benefits. They can protect all units within 12" from warmachines at 4+ with phas protection and make them harder to hit (-1 to hit), but most dangerous buff they will be casting is Timewarp on bloodletters. With timewarp, unbuffed letters horde which would normally deal 13,78 wounds on ogres (before ogres strike) would instead deal 24,30 wounds (even against ironguts) dealing massive damage even against biggest ogre hordes! So timewarp will be the most crucial spell for you to dispell in almost every battle. Timewarp and letters are such a dangerous combo that they can pretty much march over anything, so you really need tons of dispelling or good buffs to endure it. If you can kill the herald before combat your life gets a lot easier.

It is not that much use on killing the other heralds though. For example killing Nurgle herald to prevent Plaguebearers from regenerating only gives 0,75 more kills for 6 ogre bulls for exmample, while against horrors you would get 1,33 more kills per turn. Considering that Nurgle herald for example is harder to beat with its T5, you will likely get more kills and combat resolution by just killing the normal plaguebearers. Against Bloodletters the hatred will wear off after first turn anyway, so unless you have ASF item to kill him before that it will not benefit you much. Slaanesh herald is only one worth killing and surprisingly the easiest one to kill too as she has only T3. Killing him will drop the ASF from daemonettes meaning that they will deal roughly 3 wounds less each round. You should also beware if you see Slaanesh heralds in deep daemonette units as they will very likely have siren song to pull your unit there then.


TROOPS
Daemons are usually quite unit based army since most daemons are very strong. From the most common to least used core daemons are Bloodletters, Horrors, Plaguebearers and Daemonettes. I will give some details on each.

Bloodletters are really common on daemon army and it is easy to see why. 3 Letters will cost only 1pt more than one bull, but have more Ws, S, I, 5+ ward and many special rules helping them. Math favours daemons over ogres quite harshly there so you really need to buff your units well or soften the daemons up to stand a chance of winning. 6 Bulls deal 4 wounds on basic bloodletters and by buffing their strenght by 1 they will likely deal 1 more wound. Letters would hit first though (there would be about 17 of them against 6 ogres) and 10 letters with a champion will likely deal 4,89 wounds killing one ogre before it having a chance to strike. Regeneration buff would drop killcount of the bloodletters to 2,44 while you would be able to deal your full 4 wounds and likely win the combat this way. Toghness would drop killcount from 4,89 to 3,67 so for best combat resolutions (and thus best ways to melt daemons) is to cast regeneration spell on your bulls as it keeps you alive longest and you can then grind down the daemons. Whatever you do, do not count on a charge against Bloodletters as they can get a banner that adds extra D6 to their charge making them more likely to charge you than other way around.

Horrors will likely just sit back and cast spells. They are weak in combat (basic human stats) so if you can get even one unit of bulls at them you will likely wipe them all out. Small numbers are sometimes picked to protect heralds of Tzeentch from shooting but more commonly you will meet ~40 of them at once. In big units they will cast tremedously powerful spells at the casting level of 5 (they got +1 to cast standard). With their huge casting buff they can cast most spells with only one or two dice. Most dangerous spells from them would be Bolt of change that deals 2D6 S4+D6 hits that easily rips even toughest ogres apart, gift of chaos that deals D6 s D6 wounds on all opponents units within 12" which makes them dangerous if they get to blast their spells freely from behind the battlelines and Flicker fire that will deal 1+D6 hits at S 1+D6. They can easily cast all their spells with just 5 dice and will likely do so to lure you to use all your dispell dice so that herald can later cast bironas timewarp or some other even more dangerous spell. So even though their spells seem really dangerous, it is sometimes better to let them pass to avoid the buffs that will actually break you from combat. If you can drop the number of horrors their magic level will decrease too, so few shots from scraplaunchers will help you a big time if you cannot catch them in combat.

Plaguebearers are anvil unit of the daemons and all of them have poisonous hits, so do not bring giants or other unarmoured Big T guys against them. They cost same amount as Bloodletters so you will likely have to fight 3 Plaguebearers against one bull again. Bearers have a banner that will let them reroll to wounds, so buffing toughness is less useful against them (as they also have poisonous attacks). With the banner 10 bearers will likely deal 4,58 wounds to ogre bulls while 6 ogres would strike first and deal 3 kills. Killing herald will only affect the resolution a little (0,75 with 6 bulls) so it is not worth attacking him usualy. If you see Herald of nurgle having a magic level and picking a signature spell of his at the beginning of the game, be very cautious! He can lower all enemies stats in base contact to 1, meaning that even the bearers around him will hit your ogres on 3+, wound them on 2+ while resisting almost all attemps to wound them back. Be sure to leave few dice for this or they will crunch their way through any unit you might throw at them!

Daemonettes are the easiest foe for Ogres, as they will only do 3,56 wounds while ogres deal 4 wounds with their normal attacks alone. These daemons are actually easier to kill than horrors for most part as they cannot boost their resilience with herald. Herald will give them ASF though which gains 1,19 more wound for 10 daemonettes per round. Be sure to kill her quickly as she has only T3 and 2W. Daemonettes main thing is not usually fighting, but forcing you to charge them with siren song. With this ability they can force any unit from the charge range to attack them and thus reveal their flank to another stronger daemon unit for example. So beware them if you see them at the flanks with herald. They might just pull your strongest elite box to reveal its flank and make it really easy kill. Another thing to beware is shadow lore tzeentch heralds and these daemons. Shadow lore can buff their strenght to 7 and getting many S7 ASF hits will hurt any foe!


RARES
I will skip many daemons in this little guide for they are not so commonly used. Next most common things you will find are at the rare section and they are Flamers. Flamers can deal massive damage by shooting (likely 7wounds per round if they didnt move) and can actually pack a punch in combat too with 2 attacks each on S5. They cost same as Ogre bulls so you will likely be facing them one on one. They have low Ws of 2 so getting into combat with them is the most reliable way here. On combat you will likely deal 5,33 wounds on them per round (with 6 bulls) while they deal 4 back. This means that you can usually pick this unit up with same number of ogre bulls if they all survive the shooting (basic shooting and stand and shoots). They are skirmishers, so Leadbelchers have hard time hitting them and gut magic does not affect them much. In combat do not use regeneration spell as they have flaming attacks.

Fiends are another very common unit for daemons. Daemons have massive movement of 10" so they will VERY likely get the charge. Fiends will easily get to your flank and with their 4 attacks each can wreack serious damage if they get a full flank charge (3 fiends will likely deal 4 wounds per round). Due to their numerous attacks they will also benefit a lot from buffs, so beware if you got big unit of them on you. Many daemon armies use single or double fiends to warmachine and wizard hunting but since ogre wizards and warmachines are both quite strong you do not need to worry about it that much. Bigger threat is using fiends to get second fighting turn with overrun, so you will need to predict things bit. If you see bloodletter horde coming on your way and fiend attacking another unit behind the unit it targets be aware. Your opponent will then likely buff the letters with all he got and tries to obliterate the unit he charges so that he can overrun to the fiends fight and get another fight round in there.


SOME GENERAL TIPS
So there is some tips and analysis on how each common unit will work on daemons army. As you can see many have ways of charging ogres first and/or overpowering them in combat without any buffs already. For this reason it might be a good idea to play bit more defensively against daemons. Instead of rushing to the combat ogres could wait turn longer and soften them up with magic and shooting. If however your opponent has shooty army, with 12 flamers and tons of horrors for example just run at him with all that you got. Shooty army can surely dish more damage from afar than any ogre set up can. Try to use gnoblars to your best and catch greater daemons and smaller elite units with them, keep them away from rank and file troops though as they will cut them to pieces in round or two. Try to kill the Tzeentch herald as fast as you can, as they usually buff whole army with their spells. If you see fast units like screamers or furies scuttling behind your ranks, be cautious as they could get another fighting rounds to your opponent with well planned charges. Get lots of ogres. Instead of having expensive units like man eaters and giants just gets tons of bulls as they compete best against basic daemons. Protect your general and BSB from greater daemon and obvious Slaanesh siren songs, as both will easily kill them. Daemons cause tons of break tests and panic tests usually and might have -2Ld banner too, so you will need all the Ld buffs you can take.


I hope this was atleast some help to you guys. I might have just written some useless babbles that you all knew, but atleast I tried to give some constructive tips =)

Thanks LAV. I've read some of your stuff on the Daemon forum, and it's always clearly thought out and well written. Thanks for the advice!