Ogre Kingdoms Vs High Elves

Provide tips on defeating High Elf armies in this thread.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

This is simple yet sweet advice for facing any High Elves army, get the charge and get stuck in. This is ensures you gaining VPs by crushing the overpriced elves, and keeping you out of the way of those pesky bolt throwers (its gorgers work to kill their crew)

I'm afraid against a competent High Elf player, that simple strategy doesn't pay off so well (just go read my battle report to see).

From what I learned from that game, you have to keep something around to protect your rear from march blocking, and you have to deal with Bolt Throwers ASAP so you can dictate the flow of movement without fear of having your units whittled down and panic'd away.

Gnoblars and Gorgers would be invaluable for that.


MalusCalibur

experienced high elf players (being one of them) would play defensie while whittleing down nutcracker units like iron guts  using gorrila tactics with shadow warriors eagles and elleryian reavers to slow you down while the bolt throwers archers and mages do damage to their full effect,

unless your a heavy armored unit (which ogres dont relly have) spearmen will be dangerious even when you get the charge 3 ranks of 5 chances are your still going to get 7+ attacks back at you and with their high LD they will probally wont run away either

if their using a cavalry heavy army and youve pretty much won a fully geared silverhelm is 23 points if i remember correctly and apart from that armor its still just a ws4 s 3 w1 model and because of such if they get charged *skaven style tactic bait and flee also used by high elves to avoid needless fights* then the unit will just slowly die out.

one fo the largest banes to any high elf unit is prolonged combat. high elf units be they horseback or on foot just dont have the suvivability to last long conflicts and as such will try their best to win on the first turn of combat if they dont chances are the combat is lost for the elves. if your going against a hit and run high elf player who chooses his fights, you know your playing against a experienced and effective high elf player if your going against a high shooting army or high mage army then your looking at a much easier game just kill off his overly focused aspects and the game is yours

remember even a high elf mage who can desimate units with flames of phoenix in a single round of magic is still only a ws4 t3 w3 model so even a long ogre bull will give him a run for his money in combat,

if i ever use a archmage i get the book of hoeth which makes all doubles (except 1s) irrisitable force. the hgih elf mage is just to much of a point sink even without magic items so i want to make sure my spells get through,

one of the biggest problems with high elf magic is they can choose their spells with a certain honour so everyone can get it this can gof or any lore so again the cunning elf player will have a plan in mind and have the magic lores to go with it. be it metal lore to deal with armor or light lore to make your units worse in combat

cavalry armys will barely have more guys than you do ( mabey even less if you take alot of gnoblars) if they dont have the charge theyve lost plain and simple even gnoblars have a good chance of beating them afterwards,

dragons and great eagles will cause you some headaches either by thinning out your ranks or preventing you marching

spells to avoid form high lore

gnoblar: flames of phoenix. this sepll does damage equal to the models in the unit so not effective against gores but horibally effective against gnoblars

fury of kahine: standard magic missle

vauls unmaking: you dont want to lose your magic items

curse of arrow attraction: makes shooting rerollable to hit particually deadly in shooty armys


dont just expect these however since high elves have acess to the rulebook lores also

if i can think of anything else ill let you know

depends really on what kind of HE army you face. the one at my store masses magic and silver helms, has a few bolt throwers and some bowmen, sometimes having 1-2 units of spearmen but not often.

the real key, since that their army can mold to yours, is gonna be as said earlier, dictating the flow of the battle. if you surge forward and he decides to sit back and shoot, sure you are in a bit of a pickle, but abuse terrain, and try to get into combat, you should win.

simeltaneous flank charges if possible, yhetees would come in rather handy for that. anything to stop their rank bonuses, after that, you should win in combat, even if they have spears. if you do simeltaneous charges, with the new 7th edition rules, if we win in combat and outnumber, they autobreak to fear causing units. such a sick rule. some Bull Rhinox Riders doing a tandem charge with a unit of ironguts gives you 21 unit strength.

basically what im getting to, your doing impact hits hopefully, since ur surging forward and charging, dictating the flow of battle, they go defensive. your impact hits ignore their higher WS, you get some solid wounds in, swing, get a couple more, take a few, hopefully outnumber if you do a tandem charge, you win combat and they will break unless they get snake eyes. pretty simple with 7th ed rules for us now.

impact hits+ higher unit str through tandem charges, BRR

Sabretusks in the Ogre book are war beasts, so no stomp.

Which is fun because they are MB in SoM, but hey ...

Sabretusks in the Ogre book are war beasts, so no stomp.

Which is fun because they are MB in SoM, but hey ...

Monstrous beasts get stomp against war beasts. Maybe I confused you when I said 'we'. I meant high elves, because I'm high elf, which I didn't mention in that post. Makes an eagle go from being slightly superior in 1v1 to being completely superior, although 2 sabretusks can usually beat one eagle. The eagles best chance is to win the combat by 1 and force the tusks to break.

The tusk's best chance is probably to cause fear in the eagles, which are often outside the Ld bubble. Fear is probably more useful for negating terror and protecting the tusks from flaming attack archers and wizards though.

I played a game vs. High Elves this past weekend and got absolutely stomped. Nothing went right.

He was playing a mini-deathstar cavalry unit. 10 strong Silverhelms with a lord and BSB, both pumped up with high strength magic weapons. This unit went right down my flank, got a really good charge off (rolled 2 6's on the dice) and rolled up my army. I have to find a way to stop this unit. In h2h it eats me alive with all the e-rolls and high strength.

I also got shot to pieces, he has about 30 archers total and they laid into me and took out the few ranks I had. He always reacts to close threats, thinking about dropping a couple gorgers behind his lines to disrupt him next time...

I also screwed up and didn't target his eagles with shooting early, they played havok with redirection on me. Next game they will have to be a target priority.

A unit of Leadbeltchers or a Bonecruncher will ruin that unit's day, as will an Ironblaster shot bouncing down its flank.

4 leadbeltchers will cause around 4 wounds with -2 to saves a turn at long range(average result)

Bonecruncher eats expensive T3 models alive.

Swordmasters-
Avoid them as long as you can and never engage them from the front with large units.  They are deadly to everyone, but Ogres struggle more than most against them.  Shoot them if you can and tar pit them with a solo Tyrant, but do NOT throw blocks into them face first.

This is the most situational piece of advice I have heard in a long while. Not everyone plays games at 2000pts +. If you are playing a 1500pt game or smaller, chances are you wont have an iron blaster or a unit of leadbelchers. On a 4x4 board they will be impossible to ignore. So what do you do? Throw your biggest baddest block at them, make sure YOU charge and make sure as hell they have a 4+ Regen save. You WILL win the combat as they are very easy to kill, just make sure you have the numbers to survive first contact.

Quote from: Phazael on Oct 11, 2011, 07:53:29 PM




    Swordmasters-
    Avoid them as long as you can and never engage them from the front with large units.  They are deadly to everyone, but Ogres struggle more than most against them.  Shoot them if you can and tar pit them with a solo Tyrant, but do NOT throw blocks into them face first.



This is the most situational piece of advice I have heard in a long while. Not everyone plays games at 2000pts +. If you are playing a 1500pt game or smaller, chances are you wont have an iron blaster or a unit of leadbelchers. On a 4x4 board they will be impossible to ignore. So what do you do? Throw your biggest baddest block at them, make sure YOU charge and make sure as hell they have a 4+ Regen save. You WILL win the combat as they are very easy to kill, just make sure you have the numbers to survive first contact.

I find that bulls are tremendously effective against swordmasters. Swordmasters often run with a front of 7-8 models, so 21-24 attacks. If they pass their fear test, we are looking at 18 hits, 12 wounds and 10 wounds after parry. Then the ogres (usually in ranks of 4) hit back with 24 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 7 after saves. And then four stomps for 2-3 wounds. Anyway - even under the conditions that the swordmasters get the charge AND pass their fear test, things are still looking completely awful. And in case you get the charge, or the swordmasters fail a fear test, things are looking pretty bright!

Ofcourse when up against something insane like a horde of SMs, you need to blast them or hit them with a horde yourself.

Apart from that, firebelly templates are extremely good against SMs. They cover entire units and can easily kill 10-20 in a single go.

Swordmasters-
Avoid them as long as you can and never engage them from the front with large units.  They are deadly to everyone, but Ogres struggle more than most against them.  Shoot them if you can and tar pit them with a solo Tyrant, but do NOT throw blocks into them face first.

This is the most situational piece of advice I have heard in a long while. Not everyone plays games at 2000pts +. If you are playing a 1500pt game or smaller, chances are you wont have an iron blaster or a unit of leadbelchers. On a 4x4 board they will be impossible to ignore. So what do you do? Throw your biggest baddest block at them, make sure YOU charge and make sure as hell they have a 4+ Regen save. You WILL win the combat as they are very easy to kill, just make sure you have the numbers to survive first contact.

So your strategy revolves around getting Trollguts on a wizard in a low point game?  And really, even on a small board, three Sabres shuts the unit down the entire game.   Or, if you have the models, a giant column of Gnoblars can run out the clock on them, assuming you keep them under the LD bubble.

5 leadbelchers shoot about 5 swordmasters a turn.
In three turns you shoot the same amount of points the leadbelchers cost out of the swordmasters.
Why would you engage in combat?

Wow this place has'nt changed..... 

I've found that Swordmasters actually aren't all that bad for Ogres. Ironguts get battered but Ogres can take them on without to many issues so long as they have Ironfists. You rarely see SM hordes as people often prefer the PGs or WLs over the SM glass cannon like way of doing things. Often I come across units of SM's no more than 10-14 models in size almost always 7 wide. They are then used as combo chargers with other blocks like PGs, Spears etc. In this setup (at least in my area) they are nice n easy, a good round of LB shooting will go a long way and if you can't avoid them in CC then a cheeky Toothcracker/Wyssan's Wildform REALLY helps to save the day, after all they are only S5 with GWs so T5 Ogre's is going to be way more of a challenge for them.

In the event of larger units again not a massive issue really, they only get 5+ armour so lots of shooting before a well timed charge will hurt bad especially if it's a 10"+ Ogre charge. the major issue I find is keeping up with their WS not to mention the only way we ever get to attack them first is via impact hits. I have found that their ASF often has the opportunity to break my combat effectiveness before I can even strike which is where I struggle. Even with a Thundertusk they are still striking first 

Personally I find the HE magic phase a nightmare to handle, Ogre's don't seem to be able to stand their own against Archmages with the mountain of toys they get not to mention the royal ass ache that is Teclis.

High elves are almost the polar opposite to ogres, low toughness, high initiative and silly rules! I find the best way to deal with them is to shoot them to pieces with as much as possible, also impact hits en masse is a great way to deal with them too, stone horns are awesome for this! They are an elite army but toughness 3 is where it really hurts them, if you can subdue their magic phase you should have no problem, especially if they cant buff their toughness or strength. I like to take lore of beasts against them so that they need 6s to wound, suddenly their many hits arent as useful when they are wounding on 6s.

Az

I try to use thundertusks on flank charges when I can (before dying horribly that is...) mind you this is a simple tactic that works against almost any army.

stonehorns work well, its jst when they take a mage with the cloak that makes them ethereal thatt really blunts that attack!

Az

stonehorns work well, its jst when they take a mage with the cloak that makes them ethereal thatt really blunts that attack!

Az

This is true but with enough negative combat res for the HE's and that small, weak and probably fairly expensive Mage/Archmage will run like the rest of them. In the event my Stonehorn charged a model with Folariath's Cloak I'd just batter the RnF until the chars Ld required double 1's to pass the break test. With Earth shattering charge and D6 stomps against T3 it's not going to be terribly hard to achieve.

Yeah but when she charges its a nightmare! Held up my stone horn for an entire game

Az

Thanks for these tips. I just read this today before my High Elf opponent arrived and I adjusted for adding more leadbelchers and the shooty army really helped. My hellheart actually worked, killed his general when he did calamatous detonation, as well as 12 of his White Lions horde and also one or two wounds on other mage. AND, the thundertusk to negate the HE's Always Strike First (so I sucked Less...).

I got lucky and massacred him. Thanks for the tips here!

stonehorns work well, its jst when they take a mage with the cloak that makes them ethereal thatt really blunts that attack!

Az

This is true but with enough negative combat res for the HE's and that small, weak and probably fairly expensive Mage/Archmage will run like the rest of them. In the event my Stonehorn charged a model with Folariath's Cloak I'd just batter the RnF until the chars Ld required double 1's to pass the break test. With Earth shattering charge and D6 stomps against T3 it's not going to be terribly hard to achieve.

plus 4 attacks from the rider.

Playing these guys on Sunday again at 2500 points.  My first go was an odd one, with my TT being the MVP with reroll stripping and actually soloing a unit of 18 swordmasters which more or less won me the game IMO.

So I know he's gunning for my beastie but I'd like I surprise him with some maneater pain.  I know the maneater discussions are blowing up right now in the feeding grounds but I think against HE sniper poison pistols would be super gross at wizard killing and even just thinning units.  In our first game he took no magic so my SM pretty mug owned the magic phase that game, a mistake he will no doubt not repeat.

I'd also like the fit in the MFC if I can too, possibly dropping the tusk. Thoughts?

Depends, ME snipers are grossly inefficient at character hunting. They may kill 1 dude in 2 turns if you roll slightly above average(and he lacks significant protective gear)

After that, stuff is now in combat so your sniper ability is not being used. Pistol-eaters are still nasty in combat but you are still not as efficient as you could be.

I like a unit of 12 with 4 brace, 4 GWs, Poison, and Stubborn instead. HA if you have points. I had this unit just about solo a Daemon army all by themselves once. They killed 30 daemonettes, 70 bloodletters(2 seperate units), and 3 Heralds before finally going down. And I wasn't even rolling above average.

Had a game against HE last friday. Was doing pretty well.
First turn they shot all my sabres to pieces, as planned ;-). I charged my Irongut unit into their spearmen, wrecking the unit with a 10"charge while only losing one IG (I love trollguts). The overrun put me right in front of the archer unit that had a lvl4 mage in it. The second round of shooting took 4 more of my original 12 man unit of IG's leaving 5 and the BSB and SM. My charge crushed the Archer unit with the mage running off the table and me reforming to face the SM unit of 14 on my flank.
Receiving the charge with the SM, BSB and three Ironguts left I found out they had the flaming banner :-( and after they struck first my entire IG unit was lost... If only I could have charged my Sm out of the unit.
Anyways, I still won the game destroying most of his army with the 2 charges the IG's made and getting rid of his PG with a Firebelly and Bulls unit.

Conclusion, I think we need to fear be very carefull with the HE SM 's we face...

Depends, ME snipers are grossly inefficient at character hunting. They may kill 1 dude in 2 turns if you roll slightly above average(and he lacks significant protective gear)

After that, stuff is now in combat so your sniper ability is not being used. Pistol-eaters are still nasty in combat but you are still not as efficient as you could be.

I like a unit of 12 with 4 brace, 4 GWs, Poison, and Stubborn instead. HA if you have points. I had this unit just about solo a Daemon army all by themselves once. They killed 30 daemonettes, 70 bloodletters(2 seperate units), and 3 Heralds before finally going down. And I wasn't even rolling above average.

Good to know, that's more along the lines of what i have used before in other games.  I hadnt used sniper yet but i see your point.

While I normally advise against Snipereaters, they actually are a little better against HE for a couple reasons.  First, your average HE player is generally not taking much in the way of screening units, in fact their is a pretty substantial lack of good ones in the book.  So, getting the hard cover protection on his wizard is very much terrain dependant.  Second, most HE players take a small number of characters, but they tend to be spread around the army, which makes getting at them with sniper shots a lot easier.  Thirdly, no army is more dependant on its magic phase to win than HE, so even the mere threat of sniping one of the wizards becomes game changing.

The key thing to remember here is that many HE wizard lords bring the whole etherial setup, so you should focus on the support mages and BSB first.

Its also the best way to get at Teclis outside of combat, magic isn't an option with the Banner of the World Dragon hanging around.

Hey guys
Been challenged by a friend to a game of fantasy
Not played many games and so far ive only played brets and skaven.
which I consistently win against None of my friends are pros when it comes to fantasy, but take 40 seriously
Anyway... the two guys that have challenged me have won quite a few local tournaments in doubles and 2000-3000pts.
So a little worried
They will be playing brets,O&G,High Elves.

This is the list I have come up with, although might drop 1 Leadie for 2 Sabres
Let me know what you think please!
I don't want to get my ass handed to me on turn 2

OGRE KINGDOMS 2000pts

Lord (388pts)

Slaughter Master -  388pts
Lore Of The Great Maw
Level 4, Glittering Scales, Gruts Sickle, Iron First, Power Stone, Potion Of Speed

Heroes (372pts)

Butcher - 188pts
Lore Of Heavens
Level 2, Crown Of Command, Sword Of Striking

Bruiser - 184pts
BSB, Heavy Armour, Dispell Scroll, Enchanted Sheild, Sword Of Might

Core (586pts)

12x Iron Guts - 586pts
Standard, Bellower, Dragon Hide Banner

Special (481pts)

5x Leadbelchers - 235pts
Bellower

3x Mourn Fangs - 220pts
Bellower, Heavy Armour, Iron Fists

1x Sabretusk - 21pts

1x Sabretusk - 21pts

Rare (170pts)

Iron Blaster - 170pts

2004pts

Chris

"This is the list I have come up with, although might drop 1 Leadie for 2 Sabres
Let me know what you think please!"

YES please, at least 2 sabres for me... against O&G to get the nasty Fanatics running around quickly, against Brets to hunt trebs, against HE for general annoying things as charge blocking etc...
I really don't see why not everybody auto includes these. Best unit in the book imo! good thing they can't use Generals LD or they would be really OP.

Thank you Ardecay I usually do include them but I have a feeling the HE's wont be using eagles just a feeling
But yes I will amend my list to 5 leadies and 2 Tusks
They have always been invaluable but figured they would just be taken out on turn 1 by HE's?
Or is my assumption incorrect?

Thanks
Chris

I second the sabretusks. Plus, the difference between five leadbelchers and six is fairly negligible. They're still more then capable of clearing chaff like light cavalry or great eagles, but still not enough to do -huge- damage to larger units. So yeah you may as well use the points for those two cats.

My only other suggestion would be switching lores between your Butcher and Slaughtermaster, but that's mostly personal preference. I'm originally a Lizardmen player, so I'm rather fond of Heavens 

Yeh about the lores... Im a relatively new player and with 4 gut spells and +7 to cast I can 1-2 dice them all just about
I like heavens but only used it once before and got comet + Ice Shard Since then Ive amended my list putting in gruts sickle instead of 4+ward as I always had Guts up. I know flaming removes it, but even still my SM was built to tank and didn't even take a wound the whole game except to his gut magic! lol which he regened on the next cast anyway. ive used beasts and it was really good.

Used my gut star with Guts,Wysans, Super Savage Beasts
Killed all 9 of my mates Grail knights should have seen his face lmao   3x D3 S10 impact hits Think I got 7 and 7 wounds

Anyway... So yeh still playing around with lores,but am enjoying being able to regenerate wounds on my SM

Chris

Thank you Ardecay I usually do include them but I have a feeling the HE's wont be using eagles just a feeling
But yes I will amend my list to 5 leadies and 2 Tusks
They have always been invaluable but figured they would just be taken out on turn 1 by HE's?
Or is my assumption incorrect?

Thanks
Chris

yes, they will most probably not survive turn one. but that is just the case. you throw away 41 points.
Hopefully this means he will have to allocate the first round of shooting on the sabres and not shoot your important units. if he is light on the shooting it will block his path. if he takes the bait and charges he will either overrun (not very likely) or reform having put himself that bit closer you need to get the charge off.
I only see wins in taking sabres.

If you take them assuming they will clear out the opponents chaff and get rid of his warmachines, you may not be very satisfied every game. But I count those things as a bonus.

don't forget deployment benefit aswell!

Good luck!!

I'll agree again. High elves are a regular opponent, and if they waste an entire units turn at trying to shoot down a Sabretusk, I'm usually okay with it. Plus, they occasionally survive!

Another trick for smaller games is firebellys.
Taking fireball and just blasting with the highest level can usually wipe a small unit quite easily
also the breath weapon shall deal lots of damage during close combat especially inside buildings

Also placing a thundertusk beside your largest unit shall help insanely because of the always strikes last bonus witch can be a life saver against swordmasters and what not

If you are facing swordmasters that firebell shouldn't be breathing in combat, he should be running up beside them and breathing.

Yeah, you usually get more hits from a Breath weapon in the shooting phase than the combat phase.

I like a firebelly in a unit of leadbelchers, especially in smaller games. March up right in front of them, and blast them with lead and breath weapon goodness. They'll lose a lot, and you may even stand a chance of winning the combat when they charge you.

Any tips for there cavalry aside from leadbealcher

Ellyrian Reavers are really weak only bringing a 5+ AS to the table, shouldn't be a problem. Pretty good at re-directing but most people take eagles instead.

Silverhelms are capable of a 2+ AS so they require something with a little more strentgh to take down but like all elves they are T3 and wont take much to grind down. They will be S5 on the charge so watch out for that. These guys are more commonly used for character bunkers so they may have a killy Noble/Prince in there waiting to swing with a GW.

Dragon Princes are by far the worst of the Cavalry but suffer from the usual elven weaknesses. They are however fairly expensive units and so rarely will have more than 5 or 6. Throw Ironguts into them and they will crumble. They also lack lots of Static CR so they can be forced to run away quite quickly. They are able to dish out a ton of attacks (2 per model at S5 and I6 on the charge so don't let them charge) . A savy HE player will use them as a support unit and get them in your flank. The most notable diference is they also have a 2++ vs. flaming attacks due to their Dragon Armour so a Firebelly is useless against them.

My advice would be to Irongut the hell out of the later 2 units, so long as your getting the charge you will be fine as their S3 attacks will do little to you and you will cleave them to pieces when you get to attack back.

<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg>[/url]</p> I aslo find that mornfangs work great on some cavalry

Will a new thread be started for the new Helves book, I got the book today and it changes quite a bit.

We should make a new thread or update the current one as people start getting games in.

Even though a lot of things have changed for HE, I feel like most of what we did against the previous book still holds true. We will have to focus on target priority during all phases of the game.

40 man swordmaster unit? How bout a stone horn with up to 12 strength 6 impact hits and maybe throw regen on him with a slaughtermaster. That'll at least give em a run for their money and 250 pt stonehorn is less points than 40 swordmasters by alot. Plus if that terror test succeeds your looking at sword masters rolling ws 1 attacks which would be embarrassing for them. If that doesn't make you comfy try hitting them with MF and dragonhide at the same time as the stone horn, that unit would be toast just from impact hits.

Some armies will be weaker against HE this time around, but for Ogres I think it is still the same.

We still use impact hits, high strength, allocation, and overall blocking speed to our advantage.

Sky chariots and burning birds will not change that especially with our shooting and eating habits.

The frost phoenix sounds like a real pain. -1S and ASL to all "units" within X inches!?
 
It is what the Thundertusk could have been!
 
Chris

He are mostly T3 and have higher INI so it won't do all that much against most things Ogres.

The frost phoenix sounds like a real pain. -1S and ASL to all "units" within X inches!?
 
It is what the Thundertusk could have been!
 
Chris

It only affects units in base-to-base contact.

Meh mate told me wrong then... ass
 
But its till going to hurt our ogres pretty bad being WS 3, S3, ASL?
 
Chris

You can always use shooting to take down the Frost Phoenix. I'm probably gonna get a second Ironblaster seeing how much stuff I need to shoot in the HE army. Then again, at 2500, my Maneaters + Leadbelchers +Ironblaster should allow me to take down some stuff before it gets into combat.

I play HE and have been eagerly anticipating this book for quite sometime.  Having read it, made some lists and played, the book is a huge disappointment.  IMHO the book remains where it was, a bottom tier book.  I will most likely dump all of my HE stuff and dedicate full time the Great Maw.

The day I believe the above post, is the day I leave the hobby.

So I was playing with myself this morni*AHEM* I played a game with my Ogres and Elves. Some things to note:

Arcane Unforging has a range of 24'' making it a hard counter to Hellheart.

Drain Magic when boosted can remove OG augments in an 18'' bubble and really cheap too, meaning theirs less need to dispell some OG magic. eg first couple rounds when OG augment with Regen or +1T

Dragon Princes natural 6+ Ward when buffed by the High Magic lore makes then largely immune to Bonecrusher, Mages are fairly well protected in a 12 DP, Prince, Noble regiment; that'll put him in the second rank.

Frostheart Phoenix in a flank is the worst, He had 1 wound left after getting shot by an Iron Blaster and the Ogres still couldn't finish him off thanks to his -1S which makes him effectively T7

I've also played my HE's recently and I major thing I noticed was White Lion's ability to dish out as much hurt as before has taking a serious hit as HE's now have to take into account the penalties of GW's etc. Phoenix Guard however got more dirty due to fighting in 3 ranks. I can see these guys becoming more popular.

Sword Masters as well, they seem to be more on par with DE Executioners with the ASF banner. 40 of them... well that's gonna hurt pretty much anything they get into contact with, it's also nice to see they acknowledged the fact SM's needed some form of ranged protection in the form of their ranged parry.

I get the impression MSU style lists may become less common with HE players now seeing as many of the less frequently used units now have viable options. Lothern Sea Guard for example can now plug their weakness of being a half way Spearman / Archer unit with the inclusion of a Lothern Sea Helm for the Naval Discipline rule. (Allows them to reform as a charge reaction upon a successful Ld test) This basically means they can happily act as a ranged unit until being charge when they can bus up to take advantage of their spears.

I've noticed two things that could be rather annoying in the future but little else to worry about

1. The new lore attribute: the ability to give a stackable 6+ ward to a unit can easily make up for the low toughness of the army. A unit of Phoenix guard with 2+ ward?! I'm sorry but even things like the other tricksters shard can only help so much.

2. The Phoenix's: although obvious shots for our cannons these still can be a real pain to deal with. The flame one has the ability to come back to life even after being hit by our cannonballs (or exploding depending on the dice rolls) and also does d6 strength 4 hits on a unit it flies over plus an extra d3 for each rank ( this part isn't that big of a deal for our army as it is for others. The frost Phoenix makes our ogres just as strong as men in cc and that's saying something.

These are about the only worries I have and still they aren't necessarily game changing. Well maybe the first one given the situation. But other then that there's nothing in the army we can't tear to shreds in cc or blow to smithereens in the shooting phase. Even heavy shooting armies only have about a turn before wet smash them apart

I've noticed two things that could be rather annoying in the future but little else to worry about

1. The new lore attribute: the ability to give a stackable 6+ ward to a unit can easily make up for the low toughness of the army. A unit of Phoenix guard with 2+ ward?! I'm sorry but even things like the other tricksters shard can only help so much.

2. The Phoenix's: although obvious shots for our cannons these still can be a real pain to deal with. The flame one has the ability to come back to life even after being hit by our cannonballs (or exploding depending on the dice rolls) and also does d6 strength 4 hits on a unit it flies over plus an extra d3 for each rank ( this part isn't that big of a deal for our army as it is for others. The frost Phoenix makes our ogres just as strong as men in cc and that's saying something.

These are about the only worries I have and still they aren't necessarily game changing. Well maybe the first one given the situation. But other then that there's nothing in the army on the we can't tear to shreds in cc or blow to smithereens in the shooting phase. Even heavy shooting armies only have about a turn before wet smash them apart

The Lore attribute, much like Mark of Tzeentch's ability is capped a 3++ so it's not as bad as first thought. I agree with you on the Phoenixes. They fact that the Flamespyre comes back with D3+2 wounds could be a pain, additionally when it dies with a char the char comes back to life as well. The Frostheart Phoenix will nerf Ogres but it can't come back to it's potentially easier to deal with. Additionally it can't use the flying attack.

I can see the Frostheart Phoenix really changing things up for us.  I read a report on Ulthuan today and combined with Lore of Shadow it was harsh.  Ironguts hitting at S3 isn't a great thing at all. 

Linky to battle report

Very interested to hear outside of Ironblasters how to take this flyer down.  Could it be worth finding a spot for the Other Trickster's Shard as you pretty much guarantee it will be like a auto-include in competitive High Elves lists from this point forward.

Has anyone tried using Lore of Heavens against the Phoenixes? The Lore attribute sounds like it can help take them down, that and some good Leadbelcher action (looks lovingly at my 24).

As a predominantly High Elvfish player i'll share my thoughts base don my experience AS the new high elves so far:

PHeonix Guard - didn't receive a price drop but maintain the ASF @ S4, i run mine with the AP banner and a loremaster can quite easily make this unit S5, T4 with a 4++

This can mean that they're exceptionally survivable and can also win the war of attrition vs mournfang. I'd HIGHLY reccomend that "The Other Tricksters Shard" is found a permanent place in your lists as this will also help with the Pheonix issues.

Swordmasters and White Lions - i can see SM being phase dout - even with a points reduction the loss of ASF has really hurt them too much and they die to whatever they cant kill in the first strike. I use small units of 9, 3 wide to suicide run into things.

The Loremaster - will be deadly when used well. With access to spirit leech he can really dent our characters even if you try and star up and with Fireball, Searing Doom and Shems, he can really crap out some magic missles and you wont be able to stop everything!

High magic - has a spell which destroys magic items!!! also has my favourite - a 4d6 s4 magic missle which can help whittle down even our big units Look out for drain magic which will just sap our buffs away!

Don't forget the PG with a HM caster are going to be 3++ at some point and now have Martial Prowess so you're going to be getting even more attacks out of them.

I've always used a lvl 4 lore of the heavens slaughtermaster anyway. with the heavens lore-attribute, dealing with lots of flyers would be fun besides, you can use your artillery for the big units of swordmasters and others. I love the look on high elf players faces when their precious elites get torn to pieces by scrap from a really big gun. Shreds them apart.

One tactic I have been using is actually the hexing scroll!
 
My opponent generally takes 2-3 level 2's sometimes a level 4 and 2 level 2's depending on points. However when he plays his Loremaster he spends at least 2 turns as a froggy! The Hellheart is a great item but it means our caster caddy needs to get close, and with the abundance of high Ld casters with Life Leach we don't really stand a chance!
 
Chris

In comped environments the frog scroll is an able substitute for the hellheart.  Even in open list formats, people knowing you have one will become extremely paranoid about casting with support wizards. 

That said, frogging him on turn one does not help a ton and he will generally either be sitting in something nasty (usually WL horde or PGuard bunker) that can protect him, or he is bunkered behind one of those units.  It will help you short term to frog the guy, however, so its best to use it around the point where you are getting stuck in (generally turn two or three) and hope that the reduction of magic helps level the playing field a bit.  The other issue is that this guy will nearly always be supported by a HE wizard with drain magic, so you probably will not be getting any magical support either as this guy will generally just start six dicing drain magic on whatever you buff every turn.  If the loremaster wasn't so damn good, it would almost be worth frogging the support mage instead, because you likely also shut off the scroll while he is frogged.

This weekend I had a tournament with 5 friends and in the final I met High elves.

The Frost Phoenix was the most painful I guess, next to the lore of shadow combined with a lot of archers. I underestimated the phoenix and forgot about the -1 S, so I chargded it with my ironblaster (yep, noob mistake and only 1 impact hit...)

I think the best solution would be the Grapeshot with our Ironblaster and maybe the poison shots from the maneaters.

1 Unit that is awesome against helves GNOBLARS! these guys in a 50 man unit bust balls.
Only comes in at 150pts with trappers ability.

im a high elves player first and foremost and have been taking them to tournaments recently.

I've slaughtered Ogres every time I've met them.

Here's the problem from the Ogre players perspective:

1) High Strength attacks still hitting before you
2) Better weapon skill
3) Bolt Throwers carving up your MFC

When I've took my ogres to tournaments I've done quite well against High Elves because I don't take MFC or ME and just load up on leadbelchers. 2 units of 8, 2 Ironblaster and a heavens slaughtermaster.

Elves are only toughness 3 and you can shred a unit a turn.

The biggest issue is Ogres are still over-comped and thus have a real hard time competing but everyone remembers "that one time when a gutstar did this..."

I'm looking at running 6 Maneaters (BoOPs w/ Poison + Swiftstride) in a 4 player tournament amongst some friends. Mostly because one player will be running a Hellpit and I can't think of another way to take it down reliably. [I'd run the Banner of Flame with them for this]

However, another player fields High Elves and I get the feeling that Maneaters are not a good choice against them, due to the fact that the will likely be taken down to half strength before getting to attack.

Do people recommend taking Maneaters against High Elves? If you do, or you've taken them against H.E. before (due to using an all-comers list) what do you think the best combination of skills is when you choose Been There Done That?

I'm looking at running 6 Maneaters (BoOPs w/ Poison + Swiftstride) in a 4 player tournament amongst some friends. Mostly because one player will be running a Hellpit and I can't think of another way to take it down reliably. [I'd run the Banner of Flame with them for this]

However, another player fields High Elves and I get the feeling that Maneaters are not a good choice against them, due to the fact that the will likely be taken down to half strength before getting to attack.

Do people recommend taking Maneaters against High Elves? If you do, or you've taken them against H.E. before (due to using an all-comers list) what do you think the best combination of skills is when you choose Been There Done That?

I love maneaters against high elves.  You just have to be smart about it.  Drop them as one of your last deployments and keep them away from shooting.  Stay behind cover and kill the bolt throwers fast with other things.  Get a toughness/regen bonus on them and send them headlong into blocks of spearmen/archers.  Man eaters certainly do better against other armies, but they still can push their weight around against HE.  I would go poison/sniper for elves.  Dropping a bsb, a lvl 2 wizard, or even a bolt thrower (because of poison) on turn 1 is really demoralizing for your opponent.  Maneaters will be a target and will probably die throughout the course of the game, but they earn their points in threat drawn and irregular damage output.  Also, if they target the Maneaters, they aren't targeting the Ironblasters, which will then wreck cav and chariots leaving your infantry free reign to pound some skinnies.

My best game with them against HE.

Turn 1, picked out BSB with infantry.

Turn 2, picked out lvl 2 with silver helms.

Turn 3, charged 30 spearmen with 8 ME w/ T5 and murdered them.

After that they just helped the rest of the army clean up.

I had thought about the Poison/ Sniper combo but decided against it due to the fact you'll only get two reliable turns of using it. Theoretically you'll get one turn of six shots at 6s to hit (moving, long range and sniper), then one turn of twelve shots at 6s to hit (long range, multishot, sniper). Realistically I don't expect to get much more out of Sniper than two turns. You should average three wounds, which drops to less if they have a Ward Save.

I don't know how many charges I'd get off if I chose Swiftstride instead though, so I might re-evaluate. My choices were some combination of Poison + Swiftstride, Stubborn, Scout or Sniper. I'm facing off against Skaven and Tomb Kings in the same tournament, so looking at it, Poison/ Sniper could impact each of those match-ups heavily. I feel like I need Poison to help deal with some of the Monsters out there (Hellpit, Necrosphinx, Doomwheel) and I feel that it is one of the most solid traits, as you can really maximise damage, with so many attacks.

I like the fact that Maneaters wound Elves on 2+ all the time; in this case though, there's no real difference in damage output between them and Ironguts, as both will be striking after the Elves. I'm just worried about the high points outlay for Pistoleaters, as it'll be my first game with Maneaters in general. My opponent didn't pack much shooting last time we faced off - (just a unit of 20-something Archers + wizards) - but it's more the fact that I expect to lose half a unit before I can attack. I'll have all 6 Gut spells available (SM + lvl2 Butcher) so I guess I should be looking at ensuring I can Toothcracker and Trollguts as much as possible.

I was putting off taking Sniper/ Poison for fear of being all cheesy and beardy, but in all honesty I am talking myself into it

I had thought about the Poison/ Sniper combo but decided against it due to the fact you'll only get two reliable turns of using it. Theoretically you'll get one turn of six shots at 6s to hit (moving, long range and sniper), then one turn of twelve shots at 6s to hit (long range, multishot, sniper). Realistically I don't expect to get much more out of Sniper than two turns. You should average three wounds, which drops to less if they have a Ward Save.

We don't suffer from moving and shooting.  First turn is 12 shots at 6s, the second is 12 shots at 5s, if your at close range.  It's very effective against elves.  Turn 1 averages into 2 wounds from poison, ie dead wizard lvl 2, (because who protects a lvl 2?).  Turn 2, hit the bsb, 2 poison, 2 5s that hit and of those hits, 1.333 wounds will occur, so turn 2 = 3.333 wounds.  At -2 to the armor, good night bsb.  And killing them turn 1/ turn 2 is invaluable. After that you don't really care what the maneaters hit because they've done their job and they will still eat up the enemy before they're dropped. 

Note:  If you take 8 maneaters, the poison/sniper idea is pretty much 1 guaranteed kill per turn, and keep in mind that with sniper you can divide shots.  4 shoot at 1 hero and 4 at another if you're feeling lucky or if 1 is already wounded. 

Man, I had overlooked the Quick To Fire rule.

In light of how useful it'll be taking out Warplock Engineers/ BSBs/ Liche Priests/ the Heirophant/ the Casket of Souls guy I think I have definitely decided what I'll be taking for Been There Done That

We don't suffer from moving and shooting. 

Wow, didn' realise Quick to Fire allowed move n shoot without penalty, that makes, Sniper option soooo much better.
Def considering surprising my HE mate with BoP Sniper/Poison this weekend.
Is the poison a no-brainer just for auto wound, or worth considering other options since HE T only 3?

We don't suffer from moving and shooting. 

Wow, didn' realise Quick to Fire allowed move n shoot without penalty, that makes, Sniper option soooo much better.
Def considering surprising my HE mate with BoP Sniper/Poison this weekend.
Is the poison a no-brainer just for auto wound, or worth considering other options since HE T only 3?

If you're going sniper, poison is a must, you might be shooting heroes on eagles, and it would stink to roll a 1 or 2 when wounding an elf.  If you go poison, you don't necessarily need sniper, but if you go sniper, you need poison.