Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs High Elves

Summary from the old forum:

- Jog Meatfist


- Zuggut the Fat


- rampagingpenguins


- whizbang


- Wah


- justanotherogre


- Clamphandgoldengut


- blazeofglory

Just played HE today. Beat them.

Really, anything OK has can just munch through HE units.

I use Gorgers to appear behind his flanks and charge his Bolt throwers, causing him to abandon his Warmachine.

Tyrant just went from unit to unit challenging his champions and crushing everything in his sight.

Leadbelchers destroyed his Cav, units, before, predictably blowing themselves up.

Both Bulls and Guts tore through his speamen and heavy weapon units like candy. Fighting from three ranks? Didn't even bother my ogres one bit.

HE archers were just shooting arrors that bounced off of my ogre skin, and Heavy Armor

HE should not be a major problem for an OK player with basic battle knowledge.

Heck, he was even sneaking extra dice for his magic constantly, but I didnt say anything as I was still beating him in the magic phase with my Dispell scrolls and Trollguts!!!

I played the high elves last week.  The opponent had his general in the (stubborn) white lion unit.  I charged it, challenged and killed the champion in round 1.  They of course made their break test after suffering massive casualties.  Then I challenged the general in round 2, killed him and did massive casualties to his unit.  The unit was no longer stubborn with the general dead so the unit was lost and my opponent conceded the battle (since he was losing on most other fronts as well)

i played them for the second time. this time i gave it to them. lost the first game.  this guy to a lvl 4 and 3 lvl 2 mages. i new i had to take the hell heart. so on his first magic turn i use it and kill two of his mages and left his lvl 4 and lvl 2 mage with one wound left.  then he charge my leadbelchors with big unit of spearman his lvl 4 mage was in that unit, did nothing a few wounds then my butcher killed his lvl 4 mage in combat. the game was pretty much over after that.

I know this sounds stupid, but I use rhinox cav against someone like high elves (and dwarfs for that matter).  They make great targets ( just take the ones with hvy armor and not bull rhinox).  They tend to attract so much attention that the rest of the army is almost untouched.

GREASUS TOEBITER, I hope the results of the Hellheart didn't result from your opponent rolling a miscast and then a 1... it has been clarified that such a result kills his wizard and wounds the rest of yours.  If not, then wow, he got screwed  

leadbelchers do wonders against the fairy.  Also, can the hell heart actually wound every wizard on the board. Include all of my opponents if he rolls a 1?

I'm facing High Elves first, once I finished my army.
I'll be fighting as a rooky against a very experienced player, something like David v.s. Goliath. What will be my best defensive units, to protect my heroes or to support my army? How can i strike hardest? What is the best way to take out his boltthrowers when his commander with strength 7 is kind of guarding them?

Please give me some advice

Playing against High Elves, you're probably looking at 2 Bolt Throwers.

You can use your Gnoblars to screen the Bulls from shooting if the Bolts are not on hills. Other than that, you should setup as close as possible and march until you reach their lines. Once you get there you will do your damage against Toughness 3 elves. The problem is getting across that table. If he's smart he will setup farther back and protect his Bolts with big ranked units.

To aid getting across the table I would recommend that you make sure that the Tyrant has a good coverage for his Ld9. Panic is what will lose you the game against High Elves. A unit of Ironguts with the Ragbanner can be really good. The best is still a well placed battle line with the Tyrant in the middle.

Also, I find using Gnoblars to protect the flanks against Silver Helms is a useful tactic. I also pair them with Lead Belchers for support.

Hi,
    I'm a little confused. Level 3&4  High Elf Archmages have 3 wounds and a level 1&2 H.E. Mage has 2 wounds. So how could you kill and wound his Magic Casters so badly?

Sandy

Hmmm, dont know about the Dragon part, but I think that only Lords can get mounts like that. They may have something special about their hero choices though. I havent read the codex page for page yet. I dont think the dragon will have ASF but the rider probably will. You could check the High Elf forum if you dont have access to their codex and see.

If he can have the dragon, I dont think I would go with the hunter. Since the game is only 1000 points, you would be best served with another unit of IGs. You will need the numbers to lure out for flank chargers because they ASF and head on charges will kill you. Plus, the hunter's one shot is only str5, and the dragon will [probably] be T6, which means you need 5s to wound. Not good for the points. Try to outnumber it by flanking it and downright charging it all at once.

For your General, the Jade Lion may be a good choice to take so you can reroll failed psychology tests (Terror), then you can also take the Mawseeker big name (+1T on the Bruiser/reroll the Ld if needed with the Lion) so the Dragon has a harder time wounding you as well; or you could take some Laurels and eat five points. You could also take the Beastkiller Big Name...the Bruiser would be ItP, get four attacks with a great weapon and your hitting on 4s, wounding on 3+ and possibly dishing 8 wounds = dead dragon.   

Of course you have to focus on the army as a whole, and not just the Dragon, but I think that last combo would take care of it. Actually, for the Bruiser, you could try
Bruiser
Beast Killer
Wyrdstone Necklace
HA
Luck Gnobbie
Great Weapon

=185pts (roughly) if I remember it correctly; not too shabby for a Dragon-killer! If you can find the stats for the Dragon, roll a "test battle" for it and see how it works out where you get charged, then the Dragon gets charged by you. I think it will work though...

Hope that helps!

I don't think you're allowed to post individual items points cost (copyright), and he can have a dragon.  However it has a weak level 2 on its back, does NOT get ASF, and has lower strength, armour save, leadership, and a weaker breath weapon then its grown up counterparts.

However charge it all at once is probably not a great idea. If the mage gets Flaming Sword of Ruin then combined with always strikes first he could be nasty. Besides, Dragons fly. What makes you think it's going to stand in front of you and let you charge it?

My advice would be to either: kill off the rest of the army whilst minimising the damage it does, or using butchers, leadbelchers, Gnoblars or whatever, try and kill the rider and hope that luck is with you on the monster reaction test.

And if you want a backup, then giving your Bruiser the Tenderiser is probably a good idea.

You are totally right on that one Gralk! Thanks for pointing that out, I was "typing out loud"   

Well, a lot of people will use their heavy hitters against the ogres heavy hitters because they know how much damage we can do. They think if they let the Bruiser (in this case) get into CC with weaker units, that he will kick their tails - which is pretty accurate. So I would think they would use something tougher to deal with our Bruiser just to keep him out of combat with the others - hence the Dragon. I know everytime I play, they send their meanest unit after my Tyrant/Bruiser and its a good move, sometimes I win, sometimes they win, just depends on how the dice are rolling.

As far as minimizing damage goes, like you said, he flies! How are you supposed to minimize his effect if he is still alive? I'd just whack him, and not worry about it. 

I am not a real big fan of the Big T on a Bruiser-General. Since you only have 50 points to spend, taking the T is putting all of your eggs in one basket I think. This way, the wounds are more reliable (ie, if you wound it, you do two wounds period), and you protect your general more overall (with ItP and the Wyrdstone). I usually only put the T on my Tyrant - and heck, I dont even do that sometimes depending on my opponent! 

I've been reading/watching a lot of battle reports for the new high elf army.  From what I've seen, and it comes as no suprise the biggest threat to the Ogre army are the Swordmaster.  They chew threw everthing we have...everything.  All of the other units I think we have a shot at, except perhaps a lion chariot.

One of the things I've been thinking about has actually been the scraplauncher.  Impact hits are awesome vs the new HEs and a combo charge of bulls and scraplaucher should be enough to take out just about anything they have.

Also, I like leadbelchers and I think they'll be good against whittling down the elites and baiting them into a position we can handle.

I actually have two Scrappies in the works right now for that very purpose - but I am still not so sure about the LBs. Although, the Str4 AP of the shots will eat through whatever armor most of their troops have, the 55pts for possible "blow yourself up" is just too risky. I dont know, maybe I just lost all faith in LBs after some horrible rolling the last time I fielded them.

I am going to field 2 units of Rhinox cav and 2 Scrappies  that ought to show'em whats for!

Now, so far, I've played a few games against HE... Most effective combination I've found (Though it isn't tournament friendly, but a scrappy can do a similar job)

Tyrant: Tenderiser, Longstrider, Wyrdstone
2 Bull Rhinox Riders

When charging a unit of Swordmasters (Which, with a 14" charge, you pretty much always do), You get D6+1 impact hits which wound on a 2+ and allow no armour save. You roll a 4+, and that's the whole fron rank obliterated. Even if you roll below that, its still fairly deadly to the enemy. And, factor in the abilities of Terror and fear, and psychology becomes very benefcial (It should be noted that the average ten man unit of swordmasters is outnumbered here by a fear causing enemy.)

Now, so far, I've played a few games against HE... Most effective combination I've found (Though it isn't tournament friendly, but a scrappy can do a similar job)

Tyrant: Tenderiser, Longstrider, Wyrdstone
2 Bull Rhinox Riders

When charging a unit of Swordmasters (Which, with a 14" charge, you pretty much always do), You get D6+1 impact hits which wound on a 2+ and allow no armour save. You roll a 4+, and that's the whole fron rank obliterated. Even if you roll below that, its still fairly deadly to the enemy. And, factor in the abilities of Terror and fear, and psychology becomes very benefcial (It should be noted that the average ten man unit of swordmasters is outnumbered here by a fear causing enemy.)

Just wondering but can a Character join a Bull Rhinox unit? Never played them so...

Greetz Aza

That they can... The Rhinox is just a normal cavalry mount, not monstrous, and therefore works like any other cavalry unit. Characters can join, but if they have a lower M, they move slower (Which Longstrider is used to counter)

(Though, I did make a mistake about the Scraplauncher, should be noted that the way to use the strategy is a combined charge)

Yes. characters can join rhinox units, although I'd say that they don't need to - units of bull rhinoxen are nasty enough by themselves.

in the above example, the tyrant wouldn't get an impact hit as he isn't in a unit of 3 ogres.

okay being an Ogre player since they came out and also being an avid Elf player i picked up the new army book and i must say it presents alot of challenges for an ogre player to face if you break the Asur down into its two styles of war you have:

1/ Overbearing Magical and shooting dominance -

this is the main threat to the Ogres, okay we have high toughness and multiple wounds but a single turn of good shooting from a minimal shooting skeleton (20 archers and 2 bolt throwes) will make mincemeat of most your units, if you couple this with curse fo arrow attraction and Fury of Khaine you are in trouble, all your focus should be put towards neutralising the archer units first and then the bolt throwers, the mages cant be taken care of till you make contact, for the archers, braingobbler is a real chance due to the High leadership but its possible for them  to fail it, Bonecruncher is your friend here, the Elves are only T3 so you'll kill a few with even average dice rolls, for the bolt throwers Gorgers are the key, also never fight Elves without a Bangstikk!

2/ Kick ass combat troops, amzing cavalry and them pesky chariots

Toe to toe and elf unit will make mincemeat of an ogre unit with the ASF rule, your elite maneaters will be ripped apart like paper by Swordmasters or white Lions even spearmen, the trick here, is to ensure your impact hits to have less elves striking back at you before you get the boot in, try flank charges or lse pick the fights you know you will win

thats my 2p
cheers
James89

The 2 games I have played with my army have both been against High Elves.

Game 1 was 2k and he had a prince on star dragon.  I had the opportunity to charge it in the rear with my Beastkiller Tyrant aremed with Great Weapon.  Unfortunately a bout of 1s stopped me killing it.  Oh well.  In theory it should have worked... 

Blasting the thing with Leadbelchers may be enough to kill the rider.

Also, Gnoblar Trappers get a lot of shots.  It may be enough to weaken the rider.  I took a wound off him.  It helped that my trappers also never fail Psychology checks.  Both games they hung around and dealt a lot of damage because my opponents ignored them.  Game 1 they killed a Lion Chariot and wounded the Dragon rider.  Game 2 they wiped out a unit of Phoenix Guard including Caradryan.  Maybe other folks can achieve the same thing if the unit isn't viewed as a threat.

At my game store their is a League running, and of course their are some HE players.   

Player 1)1 Dragon lots of Calvary and two bolt throwers

Player 2)This guys is playing to just win as you can tell.  He has 2 Dragons (Mage and Prince), 4 Bolt throwers and lots of Dragon Prince (Saw 4 units of 5) and 2 Spearman units and I think more. 

Player one Is not really my problem.

P.S:  Never thought about that Rhinox trick, sounds tempting.  How many points is that like 500?

How many points is the army of player two?
because that seems more then 2000 points
actually that is 1980 points with out any additions.
So no magic weapons no banners, champions and stuff

after 2 games against HE today in a tournament, and 2 wins for the ogres I'd like to add 1 word to this:

toothcracker

this spell allows bulls or ironguts to charge HE with pretty much impunity - it certainly worked that way for me!

T5 on ogres suddly mean that they only wound on a 6 (spearmen) and on a 4 (swordmasters) your ironguts can happily wound on a 2 vs either.  If you do lose by 1 or 2, you still have stubbor to help you stick in and the elves just can't hack a long fight - too weedy. 

The swordmasters are still very nasty and need double-teaming, but I'll be quite happy charging ironguts into the front of spearman untis from now on jsut as long as I have that toothcracker handy.

oh - and rhinox riders rule

after 2 games against HE today in a tournament, and 2 wins for the ogres I'd like to add 1 word to this:

toothcracker

this spell allows bulls or ironguts to charge HE with pretty much impunity - it certainly worked that way for me!

T5 on ogres suddly mean that they only wound on a 6 (spearmen) and on a 4 (swordmasters) your ironguts can happily wound on a 2 vs either.  If you do lose by 1 or 2, you still have stubbor to help you stick in and the elves just can't hack a long fight - too weedy. 

The swordmasters are still very nasty and need double-teaming, but I'll be quite happy charging ironguts into the front of spearman untis from now on jsut as long as I have that toothcracker handy.

oh - and rhinox riders rule

Thanks for the tip from your experiences!  I am sure we will find it very useful in the future.

Thanks,
JC

Can anyone enlighten me on how to deal with magic against high elves (both phases)? 

-An Archmage with the Book of Hoeth is likely to be casting Pit of Shades every turn, and against your I2 ogres you're going to have a hard time.  Greatskull can protect one unit, maybe permanently  but does this work against the template effect of Pit of Shades?  Also, Butchers remain vulnerable.

High elves always get +1 dispel (so forget throwing 1 die per spell and getting results).

Drain magic owns the ogre magic phase.

The way I see it, either 3 butchers or none.  Bangstick is, as another poster said, a must.  I would use the Hellheart every game if I had 3 butchers - the Archmage with the Book of Hoeth is going to think twice before throwing 4 or 5 dice.  Unfortunately it only lasts 1 phase.  If you don't go heavy magic, you might as well go none - all the elves' IF spells will make any other magic resistance moot.  Better to have more units, or more bruisers.

i know stds aren't popular with most ok players but rune maw is essential against helf especially with ring of corin knocking about just keep some gnoblars handy to take any incoming magic

i know stds aren't popular with most ok players

I always try not to pick up a nasty rash from an innocent game of warhammer .
But no, in all seriousness the Runemaw banner is a big help against Helfs.

rune maw is great agaisnt HE, but only essential if you have a unit of rhinox on the table - they'll be throwing everything they have at that and frankly, they're both lucky AND good if they get 3 attempts to try it.

3 butchers is good, but you will be casting on 2 dice most of the time - even if they didn't get a drain magic off!  bangstick first to try and draw a dice and don't underestimate the power of braingobbler - elves may have good Ld, but send an elite unit fleeing just once and see their lines collapse and the the player take a whole new stance on letting that spell through

toothcracker is the key spell in this matchup as most things in the HE army are S3 and so will only wound on 6's against ogres, and white lions and swordsmen only wound on 4's, making them less of a threat (but still very nasty) - and being stubborn effectivly cancels their static combat res while we kill stuff.

I have a great tactic for using high Elves against Ogres, so be aware of it.

The High Elf player can spread his missile fire and magic damage around and leave an injured Ogre who has suffered 2 wounds in each Ogre unit.  Once a unit has suffered those wounds it is effectively neutered.

As High Elves strike first, the Elf player only has to do 1 wound to kill an Ogre before the Ogre can attack, and only has to do 4 wounds to kill 2 Ogres before they can attack.  Even flank charging the High Elf elite units will often result in failure, and really makes it difficult to win combats.

It's not an instant win or anything, but it's damn effective, so be aware.

alright here's the thing with magic
they cant dispell it if there dead
i was running a scrag army with the full eight gorgers and some ironguts
i was up against maybe ten dice of magic and lots and lots of infantry. and just about every single gorger made about half again there points back. when the gorgers poped up 90% of his units were tied up and the mages eaton. (mmm archmage finger licking good) as soon i stoped haveing to deal with EVERY SINGLE SPHERE OF MAGIC ALL AT ONCE things went better.
oh and by the way scrag+toothcracker= the single most unkillable character in all of warhammer

PS (im somewhat suprised that no one has mentiond bonespliter yet. nothings funnier then watching his super expensive dragon princes fall to the storm of armor proof str2)

just eat there mages
tie up there spearmen
gorger there bolt throwers
iron gut there dragons
multi charge there swordsmen
toothcracker EVERYTHING
and instill the fear of bull charge into there sorry elven hearts

Shooting up the Swordmasters before combat is important as they hit pretty hard.

A few units of gnoblars can take on the HElf archers and warmachines until the Gorgers arrive to finish them off.

Elf Cavalry bait and flee.

If high elves are magic or Shooty heavy get in to Combat ASAP.

Watch out for the White lions as they are stubborn, but if you can outnumber you will break them.

Catferret Those gnoblars who destroyed a Phoenix Guard unit must have been Super lucky -1 to hit the unit with 5+ AS & 4+ Ward this would be the last unit I would target with my Gnoblars!!! That means the gnoblars are hitting on 6's (double shots) wounding on 5's followed by all those saves???

There are a lot of good unit match ups for Ogres vs. High Elves. 

Don't charge Yhetees at Sword Masters or Spears but a unit of White Lions will go down almost all of the time.  Since both units like the trees it's a likely match up.

Ogre Bulls rule T3 cavalry with a 2+ armorsave.  You get a good amount of wounds and the save is only 4+.  105 point unit of bulls killing a 200+ point unit of Dragon Princes is a good deal.

Gnoblars are good all around against Elves of all kinds.

Even LeadBelchers are good.  Reavers and Eagles can't go anywhere near them.  For missile fire I stick to my Maneaters with brace of hand guns the range is a huge bonus.

We were talking about bulls with toothcracker being good.  A gorger is even better.

Scrap launcher is a chariot and the only chariot busting things in the HE army are Star Dragons and guys on star dragons.

Trappers are always useful.

Gut Magic is great against Elves if you can get them off and keep them on.  Remember that his own drain magics make it harder for him to dispel the remains in play gut magic.  Two dice you should get your spells off when drain is out.

Hunter's harpoon is good against chariots and eagles.  Maybe if you get a flank shot on some princes and a lucky shot could take the guy off of the dragon.  Also the sabre tusks are great for dealing with reavers and shadow warriors and Bolt thrower crew.

Tyrants and Bruisers can take everything but phoenix guard on by himself.  One good challenge and you can get through these elite units that have no combat resolution.

Against all magic I'm a huge fan of hell heart.  Also you just have to go mage hunting.  Send a few units after the mages and see if you can make them leave the units somewhere that they expose themselves to your handguns, belchers or hunters.

I've found alot of success with leadbelchers. They pump out alot of shots, wound alot and get through most saves (Dragon princes will be hard to wound, as will white lions and pheonix guard). Maneaters with BoH get hurt far too much by to hit penalties that leadies don't have to worry about. However, BoH gives the Maneaters 5 S5 attacks each, which rips through elves.

But the only hit penalty that Handguns have over Belchers is the Multiple Shots.  They have BS 4 though so that balances out.  You know that Brace of Handguns fires like pistols and so they have no minuses for longrange or moving right?

As far as I'm concerned, here are the must-take-units when fighting HE:

-Top star: the hunter. Not only pretty tough, thanks to his sabretusks he can assault lone mages, baliste crew and flank any regiment. Most of all, thanks to his crossbow he can kebab those darn dragons, or basically any other unit. He's basically fully capable to deal with any unit except the phoenix guard.

-The Scraplauncher: A chariot that can throw pieces of metal with killing blow ability, I'd say it will go well against any elite unit the HE have.

-Giant: Frankly, I would never enter the battlefield without one of these (big) boys. Not only is he more than capable, although the random attacks, capable with fighting most troops. You can expect your adversary to waste a lot of his fire power to bring him down, so use him as a meat-shield.

-Rhinox rider: Costly, but these points are certainly well spent. They just simply pulverise anything.

I'd say to not use the IG. Because HE strike first they might have a problem, and the extra strengh isn't necessary  because regular bulls can do the job just as well since the elves are so weak.

The Hunter is not nearly as good as you make him seem. Unless you like kitting out your Hunter with the Mastodon armor, he goes down quite easily too shooting and magic (which most High Elf armies have in abundance).

As for being fully capable with handling most units, no way. He can tackle Bolt Thrower crews, fast cavalry and maybe a spear unit if it's small. If you are going for a flank, why not just buy another Ogre unit (or two if you are using Bulls)? He cannot kill any kind of Dragons (5+ to wound and 3+ at best to hit is not good in any way), cannot tackle any elite unit, and cannot even wizard hunt very well as always strikes first stops it pretty well.

As for lone wizards, I just don't see them anymore, unless they are mounted, flying or can just easily avoid you. I find the Hunter to be good normally, but not really against High Elves.

Well, maybe my strategy description lacked in precision.
I didn't mean that he's a one-man army,  a elf killing machine.

I mostly meant supported by a unit of bulls, IG, or any kind of unit, he can deal some good damage.
And frankly for the dragon, if the hunter's not made to take him out, then no ogre is.

I've always seen the hunter made for making THE big kills, not big unit blocks, but lone creatures/characters.

But then again, I might be terribly wrong :/

I (ironically) see the Hunter as a dude who picks on weak units and lone wizards. Fast, maneuverable, kind of like a Alter with two cats.

I would love the Hunter to be able to "hunt" big stuff, but I find that he is exceedingly bad at it. He can't even have a normal great weapon. I deal with big stuff either with my cookie-cutter Tyrant (Tenderiser, Wyrdstone, and probably Longstrider or Greedy Fist), or a unit of Ironguts if it's a smaller monster (i.e. not a Star Dragon or something like that).

How do you use him to kill big stuff? I find that his harpoon frankly sucks, and if he is in close combat he gets munched pretty quick (besides, his attacks are too weak to kill big stuff).

I love my Hunter and bring him to every battle.  I tend to try and keep him away from Large Monsters.  The Harpoon Gun I'll use to aim at a character riding a monster but the whole time I'm hoping I hit the rider.  The Harpoon Gun doesn't suck but this is a HE thread and I think we are worrying about Dragons and not Griffons.  Against Dragons the Harpoon is unreliable but it is still good for shooting it at the rider.  HE don't have any of those annoying 3+ward against shooting items.  Best they can get is a 4+.  If you hit the rider with a 2/3+ to hit 2+ to wound, granted the 4+ ward is good if he takes it, but he is likely to take the armor of caledor which will mean he has no ward or he has a 5/6+, then with a 5/6 on the d3 you don't have to deal with the character anymore.  It really isn't bad.  5/6 to wound the dragon isn't the end of the world and if you spike 3 wounds off of a dragon with the harpoon gun or even just one it might save your Tyrant if you don't get the Tenderizer roll you were looking for.

Yeah, praying that you hit the wimpy elf rider is one way to use the harpoon, but I'd rather move than shoot around 70% of the time, giving that you will probably hit the Dragon and not wound.

Some people go for Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense and just a normal lance for their Dragon riders, so the 4+ ward save appears quite often.

You still have to admit that the Hunter is not great at killing large stuff (the elf rider doesn't count ).

The Elf rider doesn't count but like I said 5/6 isn't the end of the world.  Against every other army I like to move with my hunter but to be honest he doesn't have anything to outflank since the Elves don't have ranks to negate.  The harpoon gun is also great for waiting for a mage to leave a unit that is going to engage in hand to hand and it is good for taking out chariots.  There are lots of reasons to take the Hunter against HE but I'll admit harpooning a dragon isn't one of them.  The chances aren't that bad of taking the prince off of the top and any WS 7 that you can take off of the table is very important.

I must say the High Elves seems to be one army where the Leadbelchers and Hunters could be really useful largely due to the Elves weak armor saves.

The scrap launcher with its impact hits could also prove useful with the ASF rule. Also the S3 stone thrower is quite good vs Elves (big blocks of spears or sword masters).

The Phoenix guard with its Ward Saves are a bit harder to get rid of, but they don't deal out the same damage as most of the other High Elf units.

With high elves its important to remember that you do not have to kill the star dragon to win.

Place gnoblars in its path so that it wastes its attacks of 40 point units. Then you just use the rest of your army to kill his whilst the dragon is busy.

Star Dragon flies over Gnoblars and eats something else. Gobbos can't block a Dragon.

I use 6 leadbelchers, and I can rest easy knowing that they will kill an average of 10  swordmasters per shooting phase.

besides annoying the dragon with gnoblars, Maneaters are good for holding it up for a few turns.

I've played a couple of games agaist HE recently, and here are some of my conclusions:

• It is not worthwhile going magic heavy: drain magic owns our gutmagic. Moreover, an archmage with the book of Hoeth really kills us (pit of shades with irresistible force almost every turn). I think it is better to leave butchers at home or either bring a scroll caddie alone.
• Gnoblars and trappers really shine against elves: I've killed eagles, dragon princes and archers with them. By far the best performance in our army.
• Maneaters with braces of handguns are really good: being stubborn the can pin enemy units (and the braces gives them and extra F5 attack), and their shoting helps a lot for dealing with pesky eagles, highborns in monsters or even dragon princes.
• Since HE usually field one or two chariots at least, GW for the tyrant and even for a bruiser are a must. I'd even prefer GW and beastkiller over our magical weapons.
• With so many shooting and magic, I don't think yehtis are a good option, but they can be useful if there is a lot of terrain.
• Gorgers rule over bolt throwers! Don't forget them at their pits 
• For once, bulls have advantage over ironguts: the extra strenght is not that useful, so I'd suggest to get more bulls than ironguts. Only monsters and dragon princes are their target, and both should be dealt by baiting, fleeing and countercharging in the flanks.
• Never charge o let you be charged by elven infantry on the front: better flee (and let them be anhilated if necessary) and then countercharge in the flanks. Swordmasters are also fragile against missile fire, and being so expensive it is a perfect matchup for our leadbelchers, BoH or scrap from gnoblars. Only the maneaters can withstand a frontal charge, and be sure to recive a few wounds if you try that path.
• Bonecruncher is our best spell against HE. I'd suggest to try and cast it with three dice, trying to cast with only one dice is too difficult with drain magic and the +1 for dispelling of their mages.

In general it is a difficult match for our army, but I managed to score draws against them, and I'd say there are worse enemies out there. Do you think it is better to equip the only butcher with the hellheart instead of the two dispell scrolls against this Hoeth archmage? Thiefstones and the runemaw banner did not help me at all 

What's the big thing with Dragon Princes ? Gonna play a HE next week-end and I know she will take some.

When you charge them, not much.
When they charge, higher strength (Strength 5).

Though dragon princes (and not the horses) have ASF, when you charge it is all S3.
I think a unit of ironguts can handle them easily, whether in the front or flank (I suggest trying to flank them, because it makes it so much easier.)

WS6, 2A at Str 5 on the charge and a 2+ save...so if you get hit by a unit of 5 expect to lose an ogre or 2.

Okay, thanks folks!

Hi
I play alot against HE. My opponent use 3 Boltthrowe in a 2250p game.
I do not know how to stop them or avoiding them. I usualy  loose a unit in the first shooting step another one in the next and so on.....
Please Help me with  a good antiboltthrower  tactic.
I Have tested GORGER but they too  was shoot out of Bowmen......

He also use two wizards but I use a lot of dispellscrolls to stop that.

-Hunter with Longstrider and Sabretusks, can charge them in turn 2 most of the time (everyone or just the tusks depending on the situation).
-Bonecruncher and Braingobber (with Skullmantle for -1ld) can also get rid of them.
-Trappers!!

Bolt Throwers can really tear holes in Ogre lines so I suggest taking atleast 1 Gorger in any list.

Question.

What would apply first, the HE ASF rule, or Bull Charge hits?

impact hits go before always strikes first

Looking for advice for taking down an Elf Lord on a Star Dragon.  The Elf Lord has 2+ armour save with a reroll and a 4+ ward save and the Star Dragon...well, it's a Star Dragon. 

I played against it before and it ate my two toughest units (Ironguts and Maneater/Tyrant/BSB unit) no problem, having gotten the charge (with a 20" range of course...) and getting to strike first pretty much always due to charge/ASF/Higher Initiative.

How would you guys deal with an uber tough unit like that?  I had limited success using Bonecruncher which gets through the Lord's armour but I also found out after that I can't spam the same spell multiple times in a round (with the same Butcher) so next time that won't work as easy.  I am thinking using a Hunter with Beastkiller and a Tyrant with a Tenderizer and just go hunting for it, possibly using some Bulls or Leadbelchers as bait.

Also I have a question about lone characters challenging..can the Elf Lord on the Dragon challenge?  I am just envisioning him charging a line of maneaters with my Tyrant and challenging.  He'd overkill my Tyrant by a lot with all the hits from the Lord and Dragon and the rest of my line couldn't even fight back could they?

In a challenge (which the HE on dragon can issue and accept), you are correct in thinking that your unit will not be doing any attacking back - only your challenged character can fight.

I have had the elf/dragon charge my maneater/tyrant/BSB unit and I ate the dragon and elf - mostly due to my tyrant setup.

Since I was using the greybackpelt+cathayan longsword, as well as the greedy fist and the wyrdstone necklace and a luck gnoblar the following happened:

The elf charged - I used my brace of handguns on the way in to wound the dragon twice.
The tyrant issued a challenge that he had to accept.  He elf and dragon attacked, but due to my items were only hitting on a 5+
He got one with the dragon (which wounded me) and one from the elf that I ward saved and ate his magical weapon.

At this point I was already up by 1 (outnumber and BSB vs. 1 wound) and I directed all attacks against the dragon which didn't have all the protections the elf rider did - I got 1 wound through (since I'm only S5) - but due to beastkiller this was 2 wounds, so I won combat by 3.

He passed his break test.

In the next round of combat the challenge continued and the elf went first - again he got no wounds on me.  The tyrant at I5 (thanks again CLS!) went before the dragon and attacked the beast again getting two wound through (which turned into 4).  Dragon dead!

Combat now won by a LOT - but outnumber by fear-causers menat a double 1 test for the elf anyway which he failed and I ran him down.

This was on pretty average rolling (on true average I should have taken another wound from the dragon) but that would not have been enough to change anything.

I'm assuming you mean Bruiser, as a tyrant cannot be a BSB.

I think he means the maneater unit with both the Tyrant and Bruiser BSB characters attached.

Impact hits also wreck the girlies. Killed 3/5 Dragon Princes with 'em before he could attack with ASF - brilliant!

Ya new rule of thumb, Scrappies and Runemaw with a very very large unit of Gnoblars ahaha.  Call my chicken but can you say deploy on the back of the board + hit and run tactics? lol

Runemaw and great skull are funny stuff, keep both squads within 12 inches of each other (should be doing so anyway due to BSB.
If he casts onto runemaw unit, depending on what he rolled either dirvert it onto a unit of gnobs, or the great skull squad to make him miscast lol.

If he brings those repeater bolt throwers - find a building and hide your deathstar in:) and just scraplaunch him to death - squishy elves Deploy way back - and you actually outrange him, he will come to you

Won quite easily a couple of weeks ago using this tactic. Boring.....perhaps....but a win nonetheless.

It did help that his swordmasters ran of the table in turn 1 - with his banner of sorcery Scrappies are a must vs pointy-eared faeries

Alright so I had a bit of a rough game tonight, needless to say 1500 points and the HE's brought a block of 50 spearmen in horde formation, a block of 40 White lions in horde formation, Lvl 4 archmage with that damn book, as well as the banner that gives them D3 dice.  That was VS. my 9 bulls with tyrant, butcher/ scraplauncher / 2x gorgers/ 20x gnobbos/ 6x bulls.  So quick question how the heck do you survive 40x attacks hitting on 3's getting to reroll and wounding on twos???  Those white lions ate my poor bulls.

He can't have had much else, infact, I'm surprised he could get a legal list in to 1500 with that lot.

50 spears is 450, 40 WL with banner is 650, lvl4 with book is 350, thats 1450 already.
You still need 3 units to make a legal list, and characters aren't units.

Avoid WLs, unfortunately with that list he'll be steadfast for ever.
Sacrifice a unit of bulls to hold the WLs there, then his them in the flank. he'l get 3-4 hitting, whereas you should do enough to win combat, then you've gotta hope he fails his stuborn ld test.

Alternative is o sacrifice the gnoblars to hold the WLs, do as above vs the spears, then hide the rest and play for small win on points.

Double Charging Scraplaunchers into a block can go ok if it has been reduced to a manageable size.

Tie up the HE elites with gnoblars to help get the flank charges.

Runemaw and great skull are funny stuff, keep both squads within 12 inches of each other (should be doing so anyway due to BSB.
If he casts onto runemaw unit, depending on what he rolled either dirvert it onto a unit of gnobs, or the great skull squad to make him miscast lol.

that sir is an awsome idea! cant believe i have never thought of it! going in the next list for sure!

Runemaw and great skull are funny stuff, keep both squads within 12 inches of each other (should be doing so anyway due to BSB.
If he casts onto runemaw unit, depending on what he rolled either dirvert it onto a unit of gnobs, or the great skull squad to make him miscast lol.

Is that legal? Cause man, I got some spammy mages to go against and...

Runemaw and great skull are funny stuff, keep both squads within 12 inches of each other (should be doing so anyway due to BSB.
If he casts onto runemaw unit, depending on what he rolled either dirvert it onto a unit of gnobs, or the great skull squad to make him miscast lol.

Is that legal? Cause man, I got some spammy mages to go against and...

of course it is! its a classic tactic now. can really stop a magic missile lore user dead.

So I am getting ready for the 'Ard Boyz Tournament and wanted to learn some other people's tactics in regards to fighting certain armies.  What I found here was slightly disappointing as it is apparent the Ogre Kingdom just has to suck it up sometimes and take the pain like man.

Anyways, I did notice some things that I wanted to mention/comment on:

First:  Someone had mentioned that they lose combat prowess if they charge - this is false.  The Elven Spearman have a bonus called Combat Prowess that allows them to attack an extra rank ... period (from the front obviously).  This doesn't change regardless if it charged or not.  HOWEVER, the rule that allows spearman to attack with an extra rank IS affected if it charged, in which case it looses it.

So, non-horde rule spearman can attack four lines deep if they are charged (2 for the first two ranks, +1 for the Spearman Rule, +1 for combat prowess).  If they charge, they lose their +1 for the spearman rule since this rule only says "If you are charged or the following round(s) of close combat after the first in which the unit charged."

Second:  MaanNaam stated:

uhm... how are we supposed to deal with this?  Sure, with big enough units we will be able to strike back, but they are going to do so much wounds to us they will still win combat.  3+ to hit with re-roll followed by 2+ to wound and let's not forget all this happens before we can do anything (20 attacks from 10 swordmasters 5x2)

To answer your question simply - Buffs.  I will discuss this further when I bring to the table my point of view on how to fight the High Elves.

Third:  Kong Darkmeat stated:

Consider fielding our ogre magic banner that re-directs spells to gnoblar units nearby.

 

Its called the Rune Maw Banner and YES! Bring it and a unit within range.  It really is your only hope in regards to protecting your powerful unit.  I field a horde rule block of 20 bulls in my 3k army with four of my five lord/hero selections in it and I put the Rune Maw to redirect everything to my gnoblars as long as I can - after that it'll be Ironguts. 

I think everyone needs to take this strategy to heart. If you don't know how the Rune Maw works, look it up... read it... then use it in every single army build you ever make.

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Alright - now that those are all cleared up, allow me to discuss what I have found during my war against the High Elves.

I just started this game in January of this year, but I am a competitive (excuse my language) son of a bitch and I read rules over and over until I puke.  My friend is similar and plays High Elves ... least to say we've had many fights together and I can say now without a doubt in my mind some of the best strategies against them.

First there are the rules to follow:

Rule 1: Always bring the Rune Maw Banner - This banner is your "Force Field" for your important unit ... which against the High Elves should be a GIANT block of ogres (Your choice as to the type of ogre... i personally like naked bulls).  The Rune Maw protects you from the Irresistible force magic that High Elves are Bound to bring as thats what their magic is all about.  Sure you can cast the magic, but it wont do much damage since I don't care about gnoblars o_0.    I know a lot of you are thinking what happens when the gnoblars are dead round 2 or can't keep up - thats fine, target your other flanking units like ironguts or a specifically designed for the job unit of three ogre bulls. 

Rule 2:  Dispel Scroll Yes, Feedback Scroll No, Hell-heart No! Dispel scroll is the most powerful item in the entire game (arguably) since it's only 25pts and auto-dispels that pesky spell that wasn't casted with IF, but is high enough to make you nervous as whether or not you can dispel with your wizard.  FeedBack Scroll! NO NO NO!!! Everyone here says yes, but against the High Elves this is incredibly useless!  Now, let me state that if your opponent is not running Teclis or the Book of Hoeth (The book that lets you IF on doubles) - Feedback scroll is good and can be used, BUT! If your opponet is playing with High Elves and isn't using his IF ability, he isn't playing competitively and is playing a friendly game.  However, it is very VERY clear that Feedback scroll can not be used against a spell that has been casted with Irresistible force of any kind.  Because they will almost always cast IF, this wont see a lot of use and when it does, they will probably only be throwing 2 or 3 dice... which is hardly worth the points of Feedback scroll since there is only a 33% chance of a wound being inflicted.  HellHeart might be the worst possible item in the Ogre Kingdom line up because it leaves too much to chance for only one use.  Incredibly expensive (points wise) and has to be used BEFORE winds of magic, you are running into not one, but TWO luck-draws.  The First is hoping he gets a lot of dice during his magic phase.  The Second is that he rolls doubles.  And if he is running Teclis, he gets to ignore his first miscast so this trumps the whole point of Hellheart in the first place.  Your better off using Grutt's Sickle to make your own magic more powerful or the Cookbook.

Rule 3:  BUFF BUFF BUFF! EVERY .... SINGLE .... MAGIC .... PHASE! Before you do ANYTHING else, you cast every single one of your buffs! All of them ... if you have a slaughtermaster and two butchers, the you are casting 9 buffs before anything else (or trying to).  This works best with a level 4 slaughtermaster with Grutt's Sickle so that you can single dice spam his buffs first (thats only three dice one way or another).  Then you double dice spam with your next butcher ... and although I would never recomend a third caster in any game for any reason, if you had another, cast with that one too.  There isn't any situation against the High elves where this isn't true.  NONE!  The other magic and items you could have do not cause the amount of pain that these buffs do.  With buffs you can go up against the Swordmasters like they were children (regeneration and toughness anyways).  In addition, the more buffs you have in the field, the less casting magic/buffing dice he can use during the following phases.  If he is a good player, he'll know that a 4+ regen will save you 100% of the time from taking full ogre losses... or reduce his chances by 13% to wound for each tougness you have on them.  There isn't any reason why you shouldn't be casting your buffs every turn.

--**Note**-- This does not work as well unless you are using a Slaughter master with Grut's sickle.  If you are using that, he'll have to roll two dice for each of your one if he wants to make sure it gets dispelled.  If you can't field that because of points, you still want to buff, it just wont be as great of a strategy.

Rule 4:  Scraplauncher and Leadbelchers - Balance not over use.  Your melee is still what is going to win the game, but the scraplaunchers and leadbelchers (as many of you have stated) help weaken the enemy forces.  in a 3k game (Sorry I make so many references to 3k, but its all I've been playing) against high elves, bring two scraplaunchers and one unit of 5 leadbelchers. Then use ALL of those beautiful range shots against his Sword Masters.  When they are all dead... and I do mean all dead... then you can shoot someone else that may be of a problem.  Now - as an alternate use of the Scraplaunchers, I have seen that targeting the Teclis/level4 wizard with both is also a good alternative for the off chance of blowing him or his unit up.



Generally speaking the best strategy against high elves is to be direct and meet them head on.  Prancing around the battlefield, trying to make this elaborate moving tactic, or anything else is just going to delay the inevitable - that you are going to get nuked by magic.

Close the distance, get into close combat and take it head on.  With large blocks (which I always recomend against the High Elves) you'll find that sure they may kill 4-7 bulls in their first round of combat (that is if you don't have ANY buffs... i usually only take 2-3 dead first round because of at least one toughness, or if I am lucky enough a regen) - but guess what... its your turn and you hit 3 times per ogre and there happens to be 4x2 (non-horde) ogres (for a total of 24 attacks) or 5/6 x 3 (horde rule which I recomend if you can afford it) ogres (for a potential total as high as 54 attacks) and guess what... not much the high elves have stand up against that (except for their Phoenix guard... which is just really hard to deal with period) and you will win combat resolution. 

Pursue if you can or if you wipe them out do not overrun.  Pursue good... overrun bad (most of the time).  Just reform and get ready for the next charge.

Use the ironguts to protect your weak flank and the leadbelchers/gnoblars on the other side. 

Generally speaking - this works pretty good.


Anyways, thats my tip for this forum - let me know what you guys think.



-Thetrev0




P.S.  The Greatskull is great to have on the flanking unit of ironguts next to you (a bruiser / butcher if you can afford it) because you can runemaw to it and get the miscast.  Having it on your unit however does cause the same side effects for our own magic.  Keep this in mind when you are casting your buffs.

Runemaw is great but beware of them buffing their own units. Mindrazor on Spearelves is a killer thing for Ogres, while Flesh to Stone and Earth Blood will make those fragile Elves rather durable.

The Greatest Tactic ever with Scraplaunchers is deploy a unit of Gnoblar Fighters in front of them, this prevents them having to charge baiting units like pesky Eagles.

Also remember you don't have to fire the Scrappy for 6 turns, 3 or 4 turns of shooting then engage like a chariot. Use the move and shoot ability to maneuver.

Scraplaunchers for the win.

Relax. Swordmasters only get 15 attacks. Second rank can only strike 1 attack per person.

What you must do is use 50 goblars. Very simple.

Even if 12 die, 30 will strike back. And then 5+ to hit 4+ to wound 5+ amour save will kill 4 swordmasters. Already you have made back your points! Rinse and repeat for 3 more turns and you're done.

Thats great until the Gnoblars break and run!

Still itching to try a horde of gnoblers and their sharp stuff. Thinking of marching up to within long range 8" and letting loose. 40 shots at a 5-6 and then 5-6 to wound....Then if they charge you get another 40 shots...You gotta kill something with all those shots.....

This is probably a stupid question, just wanted to know how good the swordmasters save would be vs sharp stuff. 4+?

Danne Sword Masters just have heavy armour so 5+.