Ogre Kingdoms vs. Warriors of Chaos

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Warriors of Chaos Ogre by Durham_red

All I can say is that Ogres can have trouble with WoC. Especially in the Character department. Their Chaos Lords will devastate ANYTHING they can get their hands on, and it's hard for us to shoot them because they'll usually have a 1+ armor save or Toughness 5 or both. I guess the Ironblaster is one way to deal with them. Maybe try to tie them down with hordes of Gnoblars. Heck if I know.

Heck if I know.

Thanks so much for your valuable advice! 

I will theorize now on some tactics.

I think impact hits from a Stonehorn would help against warriors, as the strength 6 would reduce the armor. Now I believe it would be better as support to a horde to really maximize damage.

Magic will be important to counter their own magic and bolster our own strength and toughness to counter warriors. Again the combat is a bit unbalanced but bulls are nothing to be laughed about in combat. Again this is theory.

Ironblaster and Leadbelchers will be very useful to take care of all that armor, that's a definite.

Try your luck with Lore of Death and attempt to snipe out those characters.

I played WoC a lot with my sparring partner, and I quickly learn one thing : don't horde against them. Why ?

1. They only need one S11/S12 Gateway an they win the game. Boring and dumb games. You bet they are going to take a Tzeentch Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet against you to throw the needed 6 dices every, every turn.

2. Attacking Warrior or Chosen units up front unsupported is a very, very bad idea, even with buffs. Tzeentch Warriors with Shields is the best Anvil of the game hands down (T4, 3+/5++ and still 2A S4 each), they'll support the charge one turn, and you're open for countercharges by Khorne Maraudeurs/Warriors or Knights that will kill 3-4 Ogres PER TURN.

Basically, against them you have to pick up the fights in the appropriate conditions. With Ogres, it's easy to do that with MMU because of your higher movement across the board. The general tactic will be :

1. Bait and redirect one or two support units of his with cheap troops. Gnoblars shine in this role due to WoC's low model count
2. Hit the front of his units with a medium-size stubborn unit (I often use 8 IG + Stubborn BSB)
3. Then flank them with anything you want (Mournfangs, Maneaters with AHW, even 8-9 Bulls is enough). WoC units HATE to be flanked much more than anything else. They're used to deliver some pain while enduring it, but they can't do that when they're flanked.

I would say that having more units that your opponent is here crucial. If you can dominate the movement phase against WoC, I'd say they are an easy matchup. If you play the game the way they want it (big huge combat blocks in the center), they'll probably win.

I just played them for the first time last night in my escalation games.  I went up vs a chosen unit that had the double 6's on eye of the gods and got the 3+/3++ ward.  That unit rolled through every unit of Ogres it touched. 

A few ideas that I wanted to think about and get some feedback on.
1. Sniping Maneaters to kill that Tzeentch Sorcerers.
2. Using maybe an Ironblaster or a Scrapluncher and I'm leading toward the Ironblaster.

In my opinion an Ironblaster (maybe two) are an auto-include in any very competitive Ogre army, as are 3x1 Kitties.

I would however suggest you use the Ironblaster on the rest of his army, with kitties (for control and redirection) in front of that unit and mobile units such as Maneaters (vanguard/scout) and Mournfangs for a combo charge on the flanks/rear later in the game.

having played chaos a bit now, the best way to have a go is to deny them what they do best ie combat. Often they rely on horde GW marauders with GW. My list has 11 leadies and 4 maneaters in it. Death magic for soulblight is savage.

my magic goes:

Soulblight, death damage, fireball, stubborn or a buff. wounding marauders on a 2+ or chaos warrios on a 3+ with leadies and maneaters pistols is gold.  -2 armour save makes chaos sad.

to shut down his magic helheart and a scroll are mandatory. No one wants to be within 10 inches of a helheart! magic resistance is also nice but i can never fit it in my tourney lists.

My bulls face his GW units and rip them apart before they can strike. good times.

The Hel cannon will make you sad but realistically it will nail 1 model a turn. that ogre model will die. but better that than charging into init 4 or 5 halberds before they have been thinned down.

Hvy cav - these will also hurt but are expensive. mournfangs or preferably leadies should thin them out before engaging. gnoblars with trapper are surprisingly good at discouraging the cav from charging as the awesome armour doesnt help vs dangerous terrain.

the key to playing vs these guys is thin them out, then get the charge say turn 3 or even 4. dont rush in or you will be decimated.

to counter his dogs, use your cats. plus the cats can pin his heavies in place or force them to charge and then reform. gaining more time for thinning out/you to engage half an army at a time.

WoC is a nightmare match up for Ogres due to their I5, and where I game enemy infantry blocks wield Halberds (Mark of Korne) or HW & Sh (Mark of Tzench).

If using Leadbelchers then gnoblar speed bumps & re-directors to slow down the WoC key blocks could be really useful.

The Thundertusk causing ASL could also be good, as are the Firebelly Breathe weapons (if you can keep the Firebelly alive to use it, potion of speed).

WOC is actually my main army, so I thought I would post, what I would fear if I where to play my WOC vs ogres.

leadbelchers, and maneaters with pistols and scouting is the fisrt thing that comes to mind.

If theres one thing I fear as a WOC player its enemy shooting fase's. and now, thanks to the new book, ogres have some very nice shooting, most S4 and armor piercing which, spells doom for a woc army, who is dependant on their high armor save.
dont eaven get me started on the ironblaster, and especially the scraplauncher.. Yes I know the scraplauncher got nerfed to the small template, but its still has the on word that WOC fear "killingblow".
Both of theese machines, should be able to blast through the WOC lines of heavy armored infantry.

Secondly. I think lots of small bumbs of gnoblars (10 pr. unit) on the flank and rear, especially if your apponent (like myself) like to field a lot of khorne knights. I really wouldnt like the idead of losing 1, 50+ knight by charging into a unit of gnoblars.
I think sabretusks as well could work out great, as redirectors, but not just that. If your facing a Tz sorc lord on disc (which you will 9 / 10 times) they could possibly work very well as "disc hunters" keep them as close to the sorc as you can, and if possibel, charge him, this could mess up his magic.

As allready mentioned, dont bring hordes, or big units, theyll be completely destroyed.
Bring lots of smaller units, maximum ogres pr unit.
and try to bait the warriors with the gnoblars, sabretusks etc. and then flank or rearcharge them with your ogres.

Magic wise... I would suggest bringing hellheart, and a LOT of dispell scrolls.. cause you will be overpowered in the magic fases, so the best thing I will recommend, is to play a very defensive magic game.

I think the thundertusk and the stonehorn could work beatifully aswell..

Thundertusk as a support unit, mostly for ASL debuff.
And the stonehorn to make a brutal flank charge and crush some warriors..

So in summary.

Lots of shooting
Some warmachinery
Lots of small units, with lots of bumbs and redirectors
A defensive magic plan.
and maybe a monster.

I hope this could help, as I said, this is what I would fear, when im playing my woc army.

Cheers

I've played against WoC a few times with my ogres. My keys to victory (and it doesn't happen often) are:

1) Make sure your units are buffed before engaging. Troll guts and the +1 toughness especially. Stubborn really helps too.
2) You must be charging. Those extra automatic hits are huge. And you will need the CR.
3) There is nothing sweeter in a butchers life than casting a large template gut maw over a block of chaos warriors. Some will loose their initiative tests!
4) Out of all the lores of magic, their lore that has pandemonium, I am most afraid of. Its lvl 1 spell is d6 str d6. It's lvl 6 spell is 2d6 str 2d6. And pandemonium really hurts too. Hellheart, dispell scroll, sniping maneaters, anything to stop that lore. In one game, my WoC opponent got off one 10 str 10 hits first round, 7 str 7 hits second and pandemonium second round. My ogres where not happy!
5) Always take the signature spell over braingobbler. The majority of them are ItP and have high leadership.
6) gnobblars with trappers are great against their units that must charge.

WoC is a nightmare match up for Ogres

I'd say the opposite. WoC is one of the army against that I crush regularly, and I think it's one of our best matchups with Undeads.

1. WoC have few shooting, you have some. Whittle down their very expensive models from far away to a number that you can handle.
2. WoC are slow (unless they play knights, that I don't see often). You will outmaneuver them easily, and you will probably dictate a majority of the charges.
3. WoC rely on I5 to strike first, and good armour to save their expensive behinds. High Strength impact hits and S4 piercing shooting are their worst knightmares.
4. Maraudeurs rely on the number of attacks to be useful. I killed 34 in one charge of 4 IF Mournfangs, they are so free to them it's not even funny.

So basically the tactics against them is pretty easy.

0. Don't horde. You lose your tactical advantage and they will handle it better than any other army.
1. Resist their magic the best you can.
2. Block the warriors units with Tusks, shoot at will on them.
3. Setup a big charge against their maraudeurs with your mobility and wipe them out in max two turns of combat
4. Gangbang what's left.

WoC hate high mobility units, Impact Hits, lots of S4+ attacks and stomps. It's precisely our main Strength.

i'll add that WoC hate our Ironblaster and Scraplauncher too!

I've only used the IB, but S10 destroys their knights if they dare to expose a flank, thus limiting their effectiveness. I'd depoloy th IB in a corner pointing towards the other corner andif the knights line up opposite, leadbelch em, if they line up in the opposite corner shoot the IB across them!

I'd like to try the scraplauncher against them too as a direct hit with killing blow could be vicious!

i'll add that WoC hate our Ironblaster and Scraplauncher too!

I've only used the IB, but S10 destroys their knights if they dare to expose a flank, thus limiting their effectiveness. I'd depoloy th IB in a corner pointing towards the other corner andif the knights line up opposite, leadbelch em, if they line up in the opposite corner shoot the IB across them!

I'd like to try the scraplauncher against them too as a direct hit with killing blow could be vicious!

Just keep in mind the relative limitation that is the 36" max range on IB shots.  If you aren't running two of them to stick in opposite corners to be sure to have coverage, make sure you bring enough sabretusk drops to delay putting your IB down until you know where their knights or other heavy armor will end up.

I've so far had very poor luck/success vs WoC with only 1 win from 6 games so far!

Things I've noticed he really fears are as mentioned above:
Leadbelchers
Ironblaster

Things that annoy him:
Sabretusks
Gnoblar trapper bumps (although he tends to charge thru these anyway and rarely ever loses anything)

Things that he admires:
Our buff spells (he uses an item that lets him cast our spells -if he can see my SM/B- to cast our buffs on his own  units)
Our multi wound, high T characters (though I reckon he's number crunching in exclusion with this as games tell a different story)

He tends to take:
2 huge marauder units,
up to 10 knights,
2 units of up to 25 warriors each (1 tzeentch w shields, other as AHW, nurgle + always frenzied banner)
They both chew up my units wi impunity.
Usually a Lvl 4 in a warrior unit which he'll often shift to another unit before combat.
A BSB in one of warrior units
Warshrine]

If he has more points then I'll see disc riders, (poss sorceror on one)
xtra warshrine
Lord on jugger in knights

Big units definitely do NOT work against him and his most feared weapon are spells targeting my Initiative. eg Pit of Shades etc. = big unit gets small very quickly.
I could take small stubborn units to pin a front while setting up a flank, but realistically, my units don't last long enough vs all those 31 WS5 S4 attacks from a unit that's goin to have steadfast even if I do get lucky and beat em on a charge.

@Far2Casual "I killed 34 in one charge of 4 IF Mournfangs"
U must have rolled soooo luckily, the average would be ~21wounds even wi Dragonhide banner, hell max is 44 dead!
Don't get me wrong 21 wounds is still awesome, but I don't rate my luck so highly, esp when I've got 19 WS4 S5 attacks coming back at me, my enemy has general nearby and will still be steadfast, re-rolling Ld9.

One of worst things for Mournfangs is panic from losing 1 to Hellcannon. Big bases means easily hit in centre, no AS, D6 wounds is 1 dead ogre and the -1Ld (esp after Pandemonium) is goodbye Mournfangs. My best solution to this (planned) is 2nd unit of Mournfangs. He can dump on 1 while other still makes a whole somewhere. Hopefully once in combat they'll look after themselves and in time the other unit might rally.

NEVER take on warriors with just Mournfangs / Stonehorn - unless ridiculously lucky you will bounce!

Sorry sir, your maths are way off.

4 Mournfangs FC with Dragonhide Banner charging 40 Khorne Marauders with GW in horde :

Impact hits : 4D3 hits => 8 hits, 7.78 Wounds (2+ rr)
Ogres attacks : 13A, 7.58 hits (4+ rr), 5.90 Wounds (3+ rr)
Mournfang attacks : 16A, 9.33 hits (4+ rr), 9.07 Wounds (2+ rr)
Dragonhide Banner : 2D6 hits => 7 hits, 5.44 Wounds (3+ rr)
Stomps : 4 hits, 3.88 Wounds (2+ rr)

Total : 32.07 Wounds in average. Max is 12+13+16+12+4 = 57.

Numbers used :
# Success on 4+ when rerolling 1's : 7/12 (1/2 + 1/6*1/2)
# Success on 3+ when rerolling 1's : 14/18 (2/3 + 1/6*2/3)
# Success on 2+ when rerolling 1's : 35/36 (5/6 + 1/6*5/6)

The Mournfangs actually do well here if they have Marauders to attack, but they get into a ton of trouble against the Warriors.  Also, the flail marauders (far more common in my metagame) will drop 1-2 fangs before they ever get to swing in that fight.  Their usefulness against mortals will largely depend on your local metagame.  If your regular opponents tend to field nothing but GW maruaders, then they are in for a rough time of it.  Introduce some warriors or knights and their usefulness wanes considerably.

Tzeench Warriors is a whole other animal.  Even sword and board marauders are a huge problem for most of the Ogre army and you are always one blown Hellcannon panic test from total disaster.

I agree with you. In my opinion, Maraudeurs in Hordes should have Flails. They lose so much of their own before swinging due to the Horde formation that I've rarely seen them it twice. Maraudeurs buses on the other hand (5 wide, 8 long), are great with Great Weapons.

Now for the rest. It's impossible to assess all the matchup possibilities : banners, characters, BSB re-rolls and the like. But let's keep it simple just to have some ideas about what the simple matchups are.

Tzeentch Warriors vs Ironguts

On one side, 20 Tzeentch Warriors with Shields, FC, deployed 5-wide (no magical banner) -- 370 Pts
On the other side, 9 Ironguts, FC, deployed 3-wide (no magical banner) -- 417 Pts

Note : I will take into account Fear because it's a Huge deal in this matchup. Warriors are only Ld 8, so they have ~28% of chances of failing their Fear tests. I will then make an average that will be 28% with CC1 Warriors and 72% with CC5 warriors.

T1 :
IF Impact hits : 3 hits S5, 2 wounds, 1.11 dead.
Warriors Attacks : 16 A S4, 28%*(5.33 hits) + 72%*(10.66 hits) = 9.17 hits, 4.59 wounds, 3.8 wounds.
IG Attacks : 19 A S6, 28%*(12.7 hits) + 72%*(9.5) = 10.4 hits, 8.66 wounds, 3.85 dead
IG Stomps : 3 hits S4, 1.5 wounds, 0.63 dead

Total : 3.8 Wounds on Ogres, 5.59 wounds on Warriors. Ogres have lost 14% of their effectives, Warriors 28%.
Combat result : Ogres have the charge, Warriors have +2 rank bonus so they lose by two but are steadfast. They have 28% of chances of breaking.

T2 :

Total : 3.8 Wounds on Ogres, 4.48 wounds on Warriors.
Combat result : same number of ranks, Warriors lose by one and aren't steadfast. They have 41% of chances of breaking for a total of 57% (28% + 72*41%) of combats lost by fleeing.

Conclusion :
After turn 2, Warriors are fleeing a bit more than half of the time. They have lost half their effectives and a third of the Ogres are dead. If they stick though, they will keep more attacks than Ogres on the next turns, and probably reverse the situation.

My opinion is that it is a pretty okay matchup for Ironguts. If the warriors manage to stick, then they have a chance of grinding the Ironguts down. But they have to passe two Break tests before that.

Tzeentch Warriors vs Ironguts, with BSB re-rolls

Interesting to know what the BSB re-rolls will change here.

Fear test failed : 28% * 28% = ~8%

T1 :
IF Impact hits : 1.11 dead.
Warriors Attacks : 16 A S4, 8%*(5.33 hits) + 92%*(10.66 hits) = 10.24 hits, 5.12 wounds, 4.27 wounds.
IG Attacks : 19 A S6, 8%*(12.7 hits) + 92%*(9.5) = 9.76 hits, 8.13 wounds, 3.61 dead
IG Stomps : 0.63 dead

Total : 4.27 Wounds on Ogres,  5.35 wounds on Warriors. Ogres have lost 16% of their effectives, Warriors 27%.
Combat result : Ogres have the charge, Warriors have +2 rank bonus so they only lose by one but are steadfast. They have 8% of chances of breaking.

T2 :

Total : 4.27 Wounds on Ogres, 4.22 wounds on Warriors.

Combat result : It's a push. Slowly the Warriors will grind the Ironguts down as the Ironguts will quickly lose many attacks while the Warriors will keep most of them for a longer time.

Conclusion :
It's a decent matchup, but Ironguts are a lot less likely to break the Warriors on the first turn because of their BSB. After Turn 3 they will start to lose their battles as they will lose attacks more rapidly than the Warriors. They will be grinded down and break at one point.

Khorne Warriors (Halbers) vs Ironguts, no BSB

Frenzied warriors are immuned to panic.

T1 :
IF Impact hits : 3 hits S5, 1.66 dead.
Warriors Attacks : 21 A S5, 14 hits, 9.33 wounds
IG Attacks : 19 A S6, 9.5 hits, 7.92 wounds and dead
IG Stomps : 3 hits S4, 1 dead

Total : 9.33 wounds on Ogres, 10.58 wounds on Warriors. Much more bloody on both sides !

Combat result : Ogres have the charge, both units have one rank. Warriors lose by two and aren't steadfast, they have 58% of chances of fleeing. If they stick, they lose frenzy.

T2 :
Warriors Attacks : 15 A S5, 28%*(5 hits) + 72%*(10 hits) = 8.6 hits, 5.73 wounds
IG Attacks : 13 A S6, 28%*(8.66 hits) + 72%*(6.5) = 7.1, 5.91 wounds and dead
IG Stomps : 3 hits S4, 1.5 wounds, 0.63 dead

Total : 5.73 wounds on Ogres, 6.54 wounds on Warriors.

Combat result : Warriors are toasted. There are 3 Warriors left against 4 Ogres, and even if they pass their break test once again, they are killed in the next round.

Conclusion
Khorne Warriors with halberds are no match for Ironguts. Sure they kill a lot, but are killed even faster by the Ogres.

**********************************************

Those numbers above are very theoretical. There are a lot of things that will heavily influence the results, such as War Shrines, Maw buffs, presence of characters, etc. We can't say that we trash those units with our Ironguts, so if one thing goes wrong the battles can completely change.

But still in general, we are ahead of them. There normally are factors that can influence these battles, but unfortunately in this particular matchup they don't go in favour of the Warriors.
- We are more mobile, so they have a very hard time picking the battles the way they want them.
- They don't have many good magical buffs / debuffs, because you very often face Tzeentch or Fire wizards who don't have many buffs or debuffs, as opposed to our lore which has many.
- They almost don't have any shooting to kill our forces. The Hellcannon is still very random as opposed to Ogres' Ironblasters, Leadbelchers are the bane of Heavy Infantry / Cavalry, even Scrappies can kill 2-3 Chaos Warriors or 10 marauders per turn and at then crash into them with S5 impact hits and attacks.
- Warriors of Chaos do count a lot on striking first and resisting the attacks back. We hit like trucks, and a Thundertusk will both hit them hard and make them attack last. They hate that guy.

So yes, all in all, I really think that we have all the tools needed against WoC. They are not an easy matchup, but not our worst at all.

The above math is sound, but there are a couple practical things to remember. 

First, any Tzeench Warrior army is going to have a magic banner on several of their units.  This essentially means that the first four units will generally have some of these banners:  Frenzy Banner (often used on Knights or Halberd guys since you lose parry), Insane Courage Banner, Fear Banner, AP Banner, and Flaming Attacks Banner, usually in that order of preference.  The Frenzy and Fear Banners render the Ogre Fear a non factor and the one without psyche protection is generally going to be the one a good player will keep under the LD bubble.

Second, between Chosen and the possibility of multiple shrines, its pretty likely that one or more of these units are going to have either increased attacks or increased toughness, which greatly swings the fight in favor of the Warriors.  If not these, then they are likely to have a result that negates fear, putting it into a grindout.

This means that, in practical terms and disregarding the magic phase, the Warriors will have three units that are probably largely ignorant of fear and two of those are going to have increased attacks or toughness, counting the Shrines and Frenzy Banner.  The influence of magic is largely a wash, but probably leans towards the chaos player since he can afford to be more aggressive thanks to the Puppet, but the Ogre player is more likely to have spells that are useful in a prolonged combat, regardless of his lore selection.

And as for the Hellcannon, since all it needs to do is physically contact the unit to force a -1 panic test, you pretty much either cluster together to reduce the impact of the panic (but amplifying the damage) or spread way out and hope you do not have to take any isolated L6 tests.  Neither option is particularly attractive, but at least with Ironblasters you generally are only facing two turns of that kind of abuse at most.

Totally agree with Phazael, I've never seen a CW unit not buffed in some way - banner, character, magic, shrine etc, if not several of those.
In isolation our IG nuits can give em a run for their money, but in real game terms, we don't have access to the same options or tend to have magic dominance to make it work. Must be multi-charges to make this work.

Far2Casual also assumes we're gonna get the charge, which is ideal and more likely than the reverse, yet far from guaranteed with random charge distances. How often do you roll low on that crucial charge?!

My main opponent has a 25 strong nurgle unit wi always frenzied banner - he doesn't worry about fear, gets extra attacks on top of his 2 hand weapons and causes -1 to hit.
25 strong = they'll always grind us down eventually.
Always frenzied = keeps all the extra attacks even if we win.
Nurgle = a lot less hits from ogres
He usually lines up warshrine on these guys too.
Without massive thinning thru Leadbelchers/Ironblaster etc and impact hits I can't break this unit.
- suggestions on a postcard LOL

Maneaters are vital in most ogre armies, but absolutely essential for WoC, especially against Nurgle guys.  The best option, in my experience, is tossing in the Ironblaster in against the smaller units and hope T6 and the LD bubble let it hang in there a bit while the main units gang up on isolated parts of the enemy army.  Of course, you are doing this while getting Gatewayed and Hellcannoned a bunch....

My main opponent has a 25 strong nurgle unit wi always frenzied banner - he doesn't worry about fear, gets extra attacks on top of his 2 hand weapons and causes -1 to CC to models attacking them.

FYP

My post was just there to illustrate the fights in general. Just to say that simply being a Chaos Warrior is not enough to kill Ogres as most people say it is.

Now what you say is true, but those things change the game too much to just say : they will win all combats suddenly. The example of the Banner of Rage is a very good example. You're looking at 500 frenzied points there, in an army that has few redirectors and no shooting. Put a sabretusk in front of him. He's out for two turns. With two, they won't see any combat for the entire game. If you were positionned properly, you can also charge him the flank after his first mandatory overrun with 10 Ironguts, ignore his mark with Impact hits and stomps, win the combat by a ton and he has to hope he is still steadfast.

The Warshrine factor is like saying Ironguts will play all the match with Trollguts or Toothcracker on them. Most of the results in the table are worthless, as the best results are also the hardest to get.

Except trollguts can be dispelled.  The warshine always works and he has two turns to get a semi favorable result, minimum.  And the banner of rage really cannot be simply baited out by Sabers, because that unit is usually either a knight unit on the perimeter or a unit in the army center and he has numerous tools to clear sabers out of the way.

I think your area must have deathstar fever, because the lists I am typically seeing at tournaments revolve around several 20 man warrior units with marks and various magic banners, which all clock in around 300ish.  In a typical army you will see 2-3 such blocks, a couple marauder blocks, some chosen, a Hellcannon, and a couple cav or hound units.  This leaves the chaos player with at least 3-4 blocks that outfight ogres while being considerably cheaper than the opposing ogre blocks, all while still having cavalry and marauders to throw under the bus.  Three Sabers is not going to bother this army much, because they will happily sit in their deployment zone dropping Gateway and Hellcannon shots on you, making your Sabers actually block your own charges.

Of course, if the WoC guys in your neck of the woods are just throwing down three deathstars, then three sabers will win you the game every time......

My local meta is playing exactly the type of army you are talking about and you will find battle reports on my youtube channel showing I handle those armies. They are in french but please look at the armies and at the last screenshot to see how that usually ends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBk1MYV496Y&list=PL4F559C9FA82C5517&index=7&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg3zrcUHp98&list=PL4F559C9FA82C5517&index=28&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrasrBlQrfc&list=PL4F559C9FA82C5517&index=29&feature=plpp_video

Three Sabers is not going to bother this army much, because they will happily sit in their deployment zone dropping Gateway and Hellcannon shots on you, making your Sabers actually block your own charges.

Unless he fails a frenzy test, and he will at one point
Well I mean, you can not be serious right ?

What's the minus one cc thing nurgle does in game terms? I played against a 1k point list that had war shrine 2 ten man chaos warriors a sorcerer and 4 cavalry. It roflstomped my ogres(first game of fantasy).

I have played chaos the most out of all my games with my ogres and I think gut magic has been one of the most helpful things against them, unless they are playing a heavy magic tzeentch army or something with an amazing amount of dispel dice. I have had bonecruncher kill 3 choosen knights in one casting. Also, braingobler is very helpful against those pesky beastmen herd lines spread in front of their army. Put a skullmantle on your butcher and see them run.

Scraplauncher is also helpful verse large blocks of marauders. Since you dont have to fear much s7 weapons or cannon shots, it is pretty easy to keep it alive. Also do not underestimate the killing blow of it. I have also had it kill 4-6 warriors a couple of times on a large block of choosen warriors.  Hell in my last game I just had my scraplauncher scatter over a lone high elf lord level mage and I rolled a 6 and insta-killed it.

Always turn khornes frenzy advantage into a disadvantage. Bait with your msu bulls and flee only to flank charge with your iron guts.

I always find maneaters a must against chaos. They are one of the only units to live against a charge from knights and kill them with their attacks back. Easier said when they are not choosen. I have no problem throwing my maneaters in front of knights to take the charge especially if my maneaters have troll or tooth on them. 
Sure they might kill one and a half maneaters but 8 s7 attacks back can mean 3 dead knights. If they are choosen then it is best not to use this tactic.

For daemons, I find the bangstick very helpful for taking out furries or screamers.

also, yhetees really excel against demons. No ranged attacks from demons and the ice weapon attacks are magical, so no 5+ ward save. Since they will always need to attack in close combat, they will always be working with -1 to the attack roll from the frost aura.

MoN inflicts -1WS and BS on models attacking them. It doesn't effect the Warriors own attacks though.

So Ogres would be rolling to hit with WS2(3-1) against WS5, but the Warriors would be rolling against WS3 with their WS5.

It is way too expensive for what it does. It literally only benifits you against WS3 and WS6(or one higher then their WS for characters)

All other WS will be uneffected. It is good against shooting though.

Rerollable 9 under the bubble pretty much mean he won't blow the frenzy test, assuming he even cares.  At that point its your rerollable 8 (hellcannon panic) vs his rerollable 9.  If he is mono Tzeench, then the cats actually do more harm than good.

Well it seemed worth his points with me hitting on 5s and 4s to wound made it so he won CR a lot.

Do you think the warshrine is a good target for the ironblaster? I hate waiting for him to buff himself every turn and not doing anything about it....

Not that much, as the Warhsrine is another unit of the WoC that benefits from the 3+ ward save giveaway of the WoC book 

Yeah the Warshrine is pretty much best ignored, as much as you can, unless you can get a unit with a lot of static on it.  Smart WoC players use theirs to get late game flank support and to tarpit monsters and low static units.

The fact its blessing stays even if the Shrine dies also makes killing the Shrine pretty pointless.

Iblasters should focus on Hellcannons and Chaos Knights.

To add a counter opinion, it is always worth shooting a Warshrine. Yes, they may have a stupid Ward save, but if they haven't managed to give a unit the '12' on the table then killing them will prevent them doing so. I'd rather waste a couple of Ironblaster shots trying to stop this from happening than kill a Helcannon and see their combat unit rocking a 3+ ward themselves the next turn...

OK. There has been a lot of discussions about hordes being bad, but if you have the rune maw, shouldn't you be fine? I run a list with a horde w/ heavens SM and 15 leadbelchers with some sabretusks and 2 ironblasters. Should I be good?

I think the biggest threat from the WoC list is the Chosenstar of 3++ infamy.  Realistically, I think a LB and IB heavy list with appropriate delaying redirectors is the only way to beat this unit if you cant just tie it up the whole game.

I think the biggest threat from the WoC list is the Chosenstar of 3++ infamy.  Realistically, I think a LB and IB heavy list with appropriate delaying redirectors is the only way to beat this unit if you cant just tie it up the whole game.

Ironguts led by a killy tyrant with other tricksters shard can do a decent job depending on the size of the chosenstar. They wont be certain of getting the insane ward save either, but once they have it they are pretty much unbeatable.

I don't know the specifics, but there is some combo with two shrines and something else with a unit of chosen that lets you reroll until you get double sixes on the chart.

It's not quite that bad. Yes, they can increase the odds of getting the 12, as they have to re-roll anything they already have. However, to do this you really need the 50 point Terror banner and the 5 point Favour of the Gods item in the unit, bringing an already expensive unit up to a huge number of points.

The reason this works is down to the Favour - this lets you adjust what you roll by 1 place either way - and the wording of the Chosen's special rule meaning they have to re-roll a 2 or a 7 at the start of the game. What this means is that you only have a limited selection of results that you have to accept, as anything else causes or can be adjusted to cause a re-roll.

2 - Re-roll
3 - Adjust to 2 and re-roll
4 - +1 T, +1 Str or +1 A
5 - +1 Str, +1 A or +1 Armour Save
6 - Adjust to 7 and re-roll
7 - Re-roll
8 - Adjust to 7 and re-roll
9 - Adjust to 10 and re-roll
10 - Re-roll
11 - Re-roll
12 - Bingo!

This really only works for the Chosen's initial roll. Once the battle starts, the Warshrine's ability has much fewer results that can be re-rolled, though if you roll a 4 or 5 at the start you can then adjust to that and re-roll as duplicates are not allowed. With 2 Shrines and a couple of turns, you should end up with the Ward save and Stubborn result.

Which is really an unintended dumb trick.

Lame sauce gamers way of winning.

That star spells out to me "I win by dice rolls and not tactics"

Which is really an unintended dumb trick.

Hey, I didn't claim it was a good idea!

Personally, I think it's dull. Both for you and for your opponant. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game to have a unit that effectively can't be killed unless your opponant has tooled up for it. I much prefer Warrior armies that have some variety to them - the games are more balanced and more fun as a result.

If you do have to kill it though, I can reccomend lots of small units of trappers. Feed them to the Chosenstar and eventually some of them will fail DT tests and die. You can then shell them with Leadbelchers in reasonable safety.

ha faced it once but cast dreaded 13th on them and then I got a unit of 15 clanrats, wish they had the 3++ aswell .

Of course, I bet a horde of ogres w/ a tyrant could probably defeat any one unit of chaos on the charge.

Of course, I bet a horde of ogres w/ a tyrant could probably defeat any one unit of chaos on the charge.

Do not underestimate the Chosenstar.  Or Throgg with a horde of trolls.  Or 40x Khorne Marauders with Flails.  Or a Chosen Champion with the Glaive of Putrefaction (which I have seen a sneaky, sneaky WoC player use to destroy my Tyrant).

The best thing you can do against WoC is shoot them.  The next best thing you can do is shoot them some more.  After that I would suggest that you use trappers.  And combo charges.  Did I mention shooting them?

-Snark

Yup, I don't even think that a horde of Ironguts with a Tyrant in there could defeat the same amount of points of Chosens with 3+ wardsaves and stubborn. There might be a small chance with my Tyrant with the OTS, but even then I wouldn't fancy their chances that much. They are just retarded.

yeah, Chosen with 3++ ward save(they have a VERY high chance of getting this on the initial roll and are almost assured of it with Warshrines in play) will eat ANYTHING and everything in combat.

Even against Ironguts, they are bouncing 2/3 of the IGs wounds.

Assume a Horde of Ironguts is getting all of their attacks.

54 attacks needing 4s to hit. 27 hits, 2s to wound, and 3s to save. That is around 8 chosen per round.

However this is extremely generous to the ogres because it s extremely unlikely for all 18 ogres to get to swing, and even more unlikely for there to be that many left alive after the Chosen have swung first.

I run this build in my WoC(because Tzeentch is awsome) and my build is Chosen with Halberds and the goodies. I run a unit of 24 6 wide.

24 chosen 6 wide = 19 attacks.

19 attacks, 12.666 hits, 8.444 wounds. 8.444 wounds caused to the Ironguts.

That is 6 less attacks the Ironguts get.

48 attacks = 7 dead chosen(rounding up)

19 attacks from the Chosen. 8.444 more wounds caused, now three Ironguts die(leftovers from previous round)

39 IG attacks = 5 dead chosen

still 19 attacks = 8.444 more wounds caused. again, 3 more IGs die(leftovers)

10 ironguts left now.

30 IG attacks = 4 dead chosen.

Finally, the chosen have had attacks reduced.

15 attacks = 7 wounds. 2 dead Ironguts.

8 ironguts swing = 3 more dead chosen.

5 chosen swing with 11 attacks. 5 wounds = 2 more dead Ironguts.

6 Ironguts = 3 more dead chosen

6 Ironguts remain standing vs 2 Chosen. however this took 5 rounds of combat and the Ironguts were losing solidly each round. and the IGs were never Steadfast.

Of course we could expect the Stubborn crown in there, but that means a character and WAY more points then the Chosenstar was worth.


moral of the story is "Don't **** with Chosenstars"

What exactly is the number of chosen you have to face for it to be a chosen star? 30?

In a large game you can sometimes see a horde of chosen with appropriate character support for the ultimate deathstar.  Seriously, it puts our horde of ogres/IGs with characters, CoC and Runemaw to shame.  Do NOT engage a chosenstar in the front, always whittle it down with fire over the turns it approaches and get a flank or rear.

What exactly is the number of chosen you have to face for it to be a chosen star? 30?

Depends on the game size.

Even a unit as small as 20 is still a very dangerous unit(as my math above showed)

Although I would only classify a unit that small as a Chosenstar if they got the 3+ Ward and Stubborn result. Otherwise they end up being a fairly managable unit.

Ironblaster is a great weapon against them because its strentght 10 , bounces twice and its grapeshot is strenght 10. It can also move and shoot and can hold its own in combat. Just cause some panic tests and see what happens.
Thunderthusk is pretty good too because it gets rid of their high inniative 5 allowing you to crush em first.
Stonehorn works well against their knights because 3d3 impact hits and thunderstomps make them take saves of 4+.
Flank charging is also a good strategy with your normal ogres, causing impact hits, denying attacks and denying ranks.
Ironguts aginst a demon prince can definately hold their own.
Gnoblars with toothcracker and bullgorger (and even trollguts) are perfect against marauders. So are normal ogres aswell.
Mournfangs are briliiant against warrior because d3 impact hits and stomps and 6 attacks per base really hurts.
Gorgers are not bad but usually just to tie up a unit.
Hope this helps! 

You can't stomp Cavelry and both Bulls and IGs will easily kick Daemon princes back to the Wastes.

erm...important clarification on the Ironblaster...

it doesn't bounce twice...you just roll the bounce dice twice and pick the highest...otherwise it really would be broken as hell!

I played WoC a lot with my sparring partner, and I quickly learn one thing : don't horde against them. Why ?

1. They only need one S11/S12 Gateway an they win the game. Boring and dumb games. You bet they are going to take a Tzeentch Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet against you to throw the needed 6 dices every, every turn.

2. Attacking Warrior or Chosen units up front unsupported is a very, very bad idea, even with buffs. Tzeentch Warriors with Shields is the best Anvil of the game hands down (T4, 3+/5++ and still 2A S4 each), they'll support the charge one turn, and you're open for countercharges by Khorne Maraudeurs/Warriors or Knights that will kill 3-4 Ogres PER TURN.

Basically, against them you have to pick up the fights in the appropriate conditions. With Ogres, it's easy to do that with MMU because of your higher movement across the board. The general tactic will be :

1. Bait and redirect one or two support units of his with cheap troops. Gnoblars shine in this role due to WoC's low model count
2. Hit the front of his units with a medium-size stubborn unit (I often use 8 IG + Stubborn BSB)
3. Then flank them with anything you want (Mournfangs, Maneaters with AHW, even 8-9 Bulls is enough). WoC units HATE to be flanked much more than anything else. They're used to deliver some pain while enduring it, but they can't do that when they're flanked.

I would say that having more units that your opponent is here crucial. If you can dominate the movement phase against WoC, I'd say they are an easy matchup. If you play the game the way they want it (big huge combat blocks in the center), they'll probably win.

Rune Maw Banner 5/6 of deflecting gateway from the horde. Off course there was a Tourney where it was cast on my Rhinox turn 1 and I rolled a 1 

And the winner is Leadbelchers combined with Gnoblar Trapper units. Avoiding the nasty combat blocks and shoot shoot shoot them.

Now how exactly do you handle them in a 'watchtower' type scenario?

If you get it, stick a squad fo Leadies in their with a Firebelly or SLaughtermaster (prefer SM), cast toughness buff and then shoot everything mvoing towards you.

If they're in the tower fire double IB at it as each hit (lets face it - you're hitting it!) does D6 S10 hits,

If no-ones in the tower - well, you better do everything in your power to make sure they dont get the chosen start there!

Remember, it take a unit a whole turn to exit the tower, so they can' have something exit and another enter on the same turn!

If using gnoblar scrappers i find it best to take a level 4 slaughter master with lore of beats. you still can buff up your units with Wyssan's Wildform but also have a chance to get The Curse of Anraheir which allows one enemy unit to have minus 1 to hit and fail dangerous terrain tests on a 1 and 2 making it 1/3 instead of 1/6 to wound them. and with their high weapon skill this could devestate their numbers and combat.

Guts and Glory

My regular chaos opponents never use chaos lords because they prefer LV4s. So I'm thinking I can tie up a chosen unit by charging in a character with crown of command on his own. Since has to challenge I only have to worry about one characters attacks.

I had a silly thought enter my head... My WoC opponent plays with large blocks of chaos warriors with the mark of nurgle(-1ws,-1bs when attacking them) and I was looking for ways to get around that. Now I know ironblasters are great and all but they can only kill so many guys a turn. I was thinking what about a scraplauncher with its killing blow it may be able to take out a few each turn and for a bit cheaper than a ironblaster... So yes I know its a silly thought but.... what do you think?

On a direct hit you might get one or two killing blows and maybe one guy who gets wounded and fails his save. If you get a direct hit. Its not going to kill enough to make a difference once combat starts.

An Ironblaster is very likely to bounce through the whole unit and every guy that gets wounded dies so will be more reliable in getting damage done.

Your best bet is probalby just to kite it around with Sabretusks and either ignore it or slam into it with everything you got. Even a big block like that can't survive getting hit from multiple directions by things like Mournfangs or Ogre blocks, even ones that hit on 5s.

Hi Guys,

My firned has recently started using a "themed" Slaaneshi Warriors list. This list involves a L4 with Slaanesh and L2 with Death, 2 units of around 24 Slaaneshi Warriors, 5 Knights, 2 units of 5 dogs, a Hellcannon and a Warshrine. He's now looking to swap the L4 Slaaneshi lore for Death...

I've played this list with a Khorne Demons list i made and smashed it to pieces as its whole point was negated by the very nature of Demons but i know its going to tear my Ogres to shit!

It's the classic Leadership bomb list. He has the Banner that -1Ld to any and every unit in its LoS, the Hellcannon hits and - anoth 1Ld. His mage has some icon or something that forces another -1 or something, and then you've got the doom and darkness spell. Basically, turn one, my Ironguts are going to fail a panic test on Ld3 and flee off the board before i even use them, turn two, the Mournfang...etc...

How have you guys approached this list?

I understand every list will always have a counter and so far my Ogre list does pretty well. I get a fair fight against his usual Warriors list, against Lizzies and agaisnt Empire and absolutely slaughtered his Orcs and his beloved Wood Elves but lost to a variant of this list the other day.

My list is basically:
Heavens slaughtermaster
Maw Butcher
BSB

12 Guts
10 Trappers
4 Leaddies
4 Leaddies
4 MFC
2 Sabertusk

Ironblaster
Stonehorn.

This is a severely nerfed list and doesn't have the Dragonbane Banner, Hellheart, Runemaw or Greedy fist as he complained it was too powerful and not fun to play against. Hence the reason i dropped my beloved double Ironblasters! Now he's running Warshrine and Hellcannon thhough i see no reason to not revert to my power list!!

Lol, ifs he's running the Ld bomb list he has no right to complain about the HH, DHB, Runemaw, or Greedyfist.

Bring them anyway and try not to lose. Ld bomb is one of the worst lists to face.

Just a heads up if the leaked White Dwarf information is correct.

Juggernaught riding warriors are going to be T5, 2 W and cost the sme as an unarmoured MFC!

Time to go double ironblaster!

Woah, thats no good. Especially if they have Ensorcelled Blades.

I imagine it will be 1+ armor too.

1+ Armour they have indeed

Whats the unit size?

I assume they are Rare too.

yeah the only saving grace is they'll be rare. Gonna be similar to MFC in size i believe!

SO thankfully they take up space that the Hellcannon/Warshrine usually would but 30slaves for what they get is ludicrous!

oh and the juggernaught has Killing Blow!

They have frenzy I presume being Khorne and Warriors?

oh and the juggernaught has Killing Blow!

Like we care

Still, thats going to make everyone else cry.

For me it was the blocks of 50 mauraders with flails for the price of like 3 slaves a pop....  Are they still going to be around for that price?

yup - no points adjustments - just new units.

I'm really dissapointed as i was hoping for thei magic items and lores to be fixed!

However, this is all just a stop gap. Warriors and Demons will once again be reunited come the end of next year!

Hi Dudes!i have a match vs warriors of chaos in scenario ''battle over the river edge''..i am the defender and i think to put many bellies but we have also weather effects that minus ws and bs..can anyone help me with a list of 3000p?? ty in advance!!!

Emphasis to things that negate/ignore armor save.
Have plan(s) to neutralize magic/wizards.

Beware the Wanderer character that can drop a horde of Marauders into your backfield.

i make a list and i want your opinion:

1 slaughtermaste(gen,lvl4 Heavens,ironfist,armor o destiny,sword of might.dispel scroll)
1 bruiser(HA,ironfist,Bsb''rune maw'')
1 bruiser(HA,ironfist,''banner of something'' this banner is campain gift and give undreakable to a unit..but the unit must be 8 models or less)
2 butcher(lvl2 Maw,iron fist)

7 IG(fc)
10 IG(fc,dragonhide banner)

3 leadbelchers
4 mournafang cavalry(fc,Ha,ironfist,razor standart)

1 stonehorn
1 thundertusk
1 ironblaster

i spend few points on special untis cause the WoC player scout on me(campain rule) and i need to tell all of my special choises...

my general plan is to weak some of their units with shooting(i dont put much cause of weather effects)and maybe with ironblaster kill a solo character,my true power will be my lvl4 slaughtermaster with lore of heavens(more specific i will use comet of cassandora and wind blast to pull em back cause in senario i need to hold em away from my coast)

also i use monsters cause i will give a shot on impact hits..

i wait your suggestions or ideas!!!

if you're list building against WoC, then double IB is definately fair as you'll want ot kill the Hellcannons before they panic you off the board.

If he goes full on Slaanesh you're screwed anyway as there's nothing we can do against it!

I'd say you're too character heavy in your list! I'd probably include the Hellheart to try and neutralise his Sorcs by getting past the inevitable ward saves!

If he's playing Slaanesh, then he's definitely tailoring to you.

Slaanesh is the worst god to use in the WoC book. Its the worst against everyone except for... Ogres lol.

I wouldn't hold anything back against that guy.

**Oh on the Hellheart.. It probably won't do a whole lot against WoC because of the Infernal Puppet. I mean it'll still hurt, just not as much as you might expect.

***As Adasi said, you are extremely character heavy. Drop all but a BSB and an SM... Maybe a second butcher if you must, or a firebelly. Also, you must have the Gleaming Pennant (in a unit that is not going to be close to your general) and the Standard of Discipline (in the unit that contains your General) for those Leadership tests.

If you know someone is playing a Slaanesh LD bomb list wouldn't it work to bring 3 Stonehorns (frenzy) and all your special points in a big ass unit of immune to psychology Maneaters?

D...

Thank you for your responce!well i have the results and it was lose...I kill all the units expect for 3 Woc models for the last one...so he took the points and i lost..but generally this list went nice... now i play again with WoC in similar scenario like watch tower but as a restriction is to make an army of 2100p(i am the defender) vs 3000p(he is the attacker)...any ideas..but i think ogres is not the best army for defend..

Ogres can defend I think.

Just plop a unit of 8 leadbelchers in there and blast away at stuff until you get attacked, and then lay waste!

You could also put a unit of Maneaters in there with Braces of Pistols or something.

Gutmagic can make any unit in the building hard to shift. With only 10 models able to fight our 3 its quite stacked in our favor, especially if a character gets stuck in there.

Just watch out for cannons and Stone Throwers.

In my opinion an excellent unit for in a tower are a large unit of gnoblar trappers. Just keep your general/bsb bunker near to it and you are good to go:

Enemy charges (stand and shoot), they make the charge (Dangerous terrain tests), they kill a few Gnobs, gnobs hold (Stubborn), enemy must leave the building, Gnobs shoot, Enemy charges again (Stand and shoot), they make the charge (Dangerous terrain test), etc, etc....

D...

In my opinion an excellent unit for in a tower are a large unit of gnoblar trappers. Just keep your general/bsb bunker near to it and you are good to go:

Enemy charges (stand and shoot), they make the charge (Dangerous terrain tests), they kill a few Gnobs, gnobs hold (Stubborn), enemy must leave the building, Gnobs shoot, Enemy charges again (Stand and shoot), they make the charge (Dangerous terrain test), etc, etc....

D...

Of course they could always bring a flame banner (worth 10 points means it will be easy) and that would force the gnobs to run away.

How would that force the Gnobs to run away Brainfreezer?

D...

Yeah, flaming just rerolls to wound against models in buildings.

I thought units that shoot with flaming attacks cause a panic test to those inside?
Dammit High elf! I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it seems good idea but 20 gnobs vs 10 warrior of chaos(about 3-4 attack each) it dissaster..gnobs propably hold one turn...in my opinion a unit with 7 IG with a bruiser inside(with unbreakable banner..this banner is created for campain only) its better... i will make a roster and i will posted it...

but i want to make few questions
1)how many gnob or ogres can i put inside the tower?
2)do i have support attack inside the tower?(i will be the defender from the begging of the game)
3)can i make a charge if the attacker is close to the tower?

it seems good idea but 20 gnobs vs 10 warrior of chaos(about 3-4 attack each) it dissaster..gnobs propably hold one turn...in my opinion a unit with 7 IG with a bruiser inside(with unbreakable banner..this banner is created for campain only) its better... i will make a roster and i will posted it...

but i want to make few questions
1)how many gnob or ogres can i put inside the tower?
2)do i have support attack inside the tower?(i will be the defender from the begging of the game)
3)can i make a charge if the attacker is close to the tower?

20 isn't enough - I think he meant something more like 40.

1. 3 ogres per floor.
2. only 10 infantry models (or 3 monstrous infantry models) can fight at any one time in a building combat. other than those models, there are no attacks of any kind.
3. if you mean charge out of the tower at them, no. leaving the tower counts as a full turn's worth of movement.

1. 3 ogres per floor.

What?

Would ogres per floor only matter for shooting purposes I thought.  I can't remember how many can shoot per floor (don't have BRB with me at the moment).  But anyways. 

think the rulebook actually says "5 models per floor can shoot" or something like that - meaning leadbeclhers in a building is boss!

Not if there is a lot of warmachines... 1d6 hits each 1d6 wounds...

???

If a warmachine hits a unit in te building, then the unit suffers D6 wounds at the S of the machine...

It doesn't say that each of thos wounds also does D6.

They're already getting a bonus of all the hits being at the higher strength...

Multiple wounds still apply and from say a cannon, which does d6 hits, it still does d6 wounds per hit - page 127 Template Weapons (shooting at buildings).

ah ok! thanks for the ref.

But since this is in the WoC section, then we only have to worry about the Hellcannon.

Can i check then; do all d6 count as the one under th hole or do you randomise which of the d6 wounds counts as the one under the template.

Or, is it if the building is under the hole, they all take the s10 d6 wounder, bt if th ebuilding isn't under the hole then its d6 s5?

if the hole is over the building the hits are done at the Strength of the hole. If the hole is not over the building its done at the base strength.

Moral of the story, don't be in a building with a Hellcannon on the table.

You can number crunch as much as you like, but it's all about the dice rolls.  My last game I rolled 3 miscasts in a row each time on 2 dice...no joke. 

WoC are the most difficult army I've faced, DE's coming a close second with shadow magic and their amount of fire power.  The WoC Sorceror on disk Lv4 with an un-modifiable 2+ ward, even my Ironblaster couldn't scratch this abomination.  I once put 32 poison shots with skinks on the same guy and zip. 

The Scraplauncher is my friend against warrior units.  I'd say the IB is better against GD's or taking out lords/heroes in units, especially heralds!

I play mostly at 1500 points so it is limited what you can do, but I tend to think in the mindset of...if they have better armour or T then stay back and shoot whilst speed bumping them with Gnobbies. If they have hordes then use smaller units and out-manouver them whilst trying to avoid lord on disk.  This is also what I do if they have the Hellcannon. 

I take A Lv4 SM with Arm of Destiny, Firebelly with Hellheart and Bruiser BSB with either Discipline or Razor.  7-9 Ogres, 5/6 Ironguts with Dragonhide or Rune Maw, 10 Gnob Trappers, 2 Cats, Ironblaster and 4 Leadies.  I only tend to use Mournfang at 2000pts or above.

I've played against Ogre 1500pt lists with a single unit of 10/12 Ogres containing SM, BSB and FB, 4 Mournfang, 3 Maneaters and an IB.  I don't know if that would be a better list against WoC as the Maneaters are pretty good and Mournfang usually get the charge with the DHB.

I haven't a lot of experience playing WoC, but I cringe at the sight of a Lord on Disk with Mark of Tzeench...

Would ogres per floor only matter for shooting purposes I thought.  I can't remember how many can shoot per floor (don't have BRB with me at the moment).  But anyways. 

Ogres can still shoot 5 per floor, the restriction only applies to Combat.

First impressions of the new kits ? That slaughterbrute looks terrifying 

from what i hear, it casts a bound spell which, on a 2+ does D6 T tests or die, one a 1 the whole unit takes a T test.

Basically given WoC access to one of the games most powerful, game changing spells without any of the risk of miscasting and blowing anything up.

If it is bound to the lord/hero, then it moves and functions normally and can use the Lord/Heroes' WS, if it is unbound, it has 3d6 random movement.

I can only hope the cost in points is worse than the cost in pounds!!

You are mixing the two models up... The slaughterbrute is super killy and can be bound to a Lord and get it's WS, it seems (rumour) that it can somehow get unbound, gain frenzy and 3d6 movement..

The bound spell is on the mutalith.. A lot less killy than the slaughterbrute.. The bound spell is good, but it is just that bound, it is easier to dispel and if he chugs 6 dice at it the magicphase is done.. The 1/6 chance to hit the whole unit isn't insane, and will only ever amount to te same as dwellers or final transmutation.. The tzeentch infernal gateway was worse and with the puppet you could easily throw 6 dice on it without fearing much, if that spell is still in the book fear that instead..

The best way to utilize the mutalith spell is to save it making the opponent fear that it will be cast late in the magicphase forcing your opponent to save dispel dice on it and then getting off other spells instead..

well Gateway has been nerfed thankfully.

It's essentially th esame, but a 10-12 result no longer delete the unit but causes 3d6 instead of 2d6

Hellcannons have received a buff and a nerf. They no longer cause a panic test on a hit which is good. They do however now have a 5++ which could suck if they still have the monster handler rule!

Warshrine has received a super nerf. It now functions like a chariot. It's "blessing" only affects characters or unit champions and is a bound spell! The 12 result however DOES turn the champion/character into a Demon Prince with a mark of their choosing!!

They have some interesting magic items. There is a weapon that allows D6+3 attacks but any that roll a one to hit cause a wound on the bearer with no AS!!!

Thought I might add my experiences with them:
The Slaughterbrute: I have to say, he is a very good match for the stonehorn. With the possability of higher Ws or more attacks, these two monsters will be just slughing it out against each other. Bare in mind that the Stonehorn recieves no armour and the Brute does (if I recall)
Muthalith: Not very painful to Ogres, and we just have enough weapons to wreck this guy before he hits us. An Ironblaster can see that guy very easily.
Daemon Prince: I have to say, these guys put up a much better fight then before, and are only a fraction of the cost. Faced a Nurgle one with Glittering Scales, and I have to say, he was well worth it in points.
Chaos Sorceror: With loads of their spells being nerfed and no more puppet shannigans, these guys aren't so bad. Just watch out because Tzeentch casters can now use BRB lores like Shadow, which mess up our day.
Marauders: These guys got kicked in the groin, I can only see these guys really with either Flails and MoK or nude MoN to tie up unuts or clear lots of chaffe. We won't be worrying about these guys much anymore.
Warriors: Pretty much the same, damage from these guys is mitigated by Impact hits. But better pointed now.
Chaos Lords: Almost the same, but I feel we will see alot more of these guys on Chariots or Chimeras with tooled up combat gear.
Chaos Knights: Better costed but the same really, you just have to pay for EW's now.
Shrines: They suck. They take up power dice, making dispelling for me, much easier. They can only affect characters too, so not to be worried about anymore.
Hellcannon: Much harder to take down, but are very slow as a result. They also don't cause a Panic test once hit, so Ogres won't worry that much.
Skullcrushers: The best Monstrous Cavalry in the game IMO. Being very well costed, and being superior to MFC's, these guys will be near auto-include. But due to them being rare, we won't see massive blocks of them.
Hellstriders: Annoying. They can tie up sabertusks and MFC's quite quickly, but they die after a few hits.
Okay, just thought this could help.

Thought I might add my experiences with them:
The Slaughterbrute: I have to say, he is a very good match for the stonehorn. With the possability of higher Ws or more attacks, these two monsters will be just slughing it out against each other. Bare in mind that the Stonehorn recieves no armour and the Brute does (if I recall)
**I am taking one for Fluff reasons. Not sure how he will do.. Kind of low on attacks and defense for so many points... High strength is nice though.
Muthalith: Not very painful to Ogres, and we just have enough weapons to wreck this guy before he hits us. An Ironblaster can see that guy very easily.
**Agreed.
Daemon Prince: I have to say, these guys put up a much better fight then before, and are only a fraction of the cost. Faced a Nurgle one with Glittering Scales, and I have to say, he was well worth it in points.
**Agreed. There will be plenty of princes out there.
Chaos Sorceror: With loads of their spells being nerfed and no more puppet shannigans, these guys aren't so bad. Just watch out because Tzeentch casters can now use BRB lores like Shadow, which mess up our day.
**These guys are about what they were before but like you said, no more shenanigans. Access to metal gives a +1 armor save to warriors and other goodies. Look out for that. Also they will be a LOT tougher to kill with Third Eye of Tzeentch...(or Chaos Lords if they give it to them)
Marauders: These guys got kicked in the groin, I can only see these guys really with either Flails and MoK or nude MoN to tie up unuts or clear lots of chaffe. We won't be worrying about these guys much anymore.
Warriors: Pretty much the same, damage from these guys is mitigated by Impact hits. But better pointed now.
**Agreed.
Chaos Lords: Almost the same, but I feel we will see alot more of these guys on Chariots or Chimeras with tooled up combat gear.
**You cannot mount anything on a Chimera. But yeah I am running a tooled up lord on a gorebeast chariot in my Khorne army. He will be mighty scary.
Chaos Knights: Better costed but the same really, you just have to pay for EW's now.
**Agreed. No real changes here.
Shrines: They suck. They take up power dice, making dispelling for me, much easier. They can only affect characters too, so not to be worried about anymore.
**Total disagreement. This is probably the best new ruleset Chaos received. See my arguments here - http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/warriors-chaos/231658-new-warshrine-abilitites-model-points-why-hate.html
Hellcannon: Much harder to take down, but are very slow as a result. They also don't cause a Panic test once hit, so Ogres won't worry that much.
**It still causes panic tests at -1. Nothing changed with it except that it got slower and tougher to kill. With new special rule of D6 multi wounds (before you just had to refer to the rulebook which stated it was under the whole, now it actually says it in its special rules), its *possible* that it now does multi wounds to everything under the template instead of just under the center hole. I don't think so, but maybe...****I since found out that it clarifies later in the Army Book that it does NOT do D6 wounds on everything, only under the hole. Also, the panic test is only on a wound not a hit as stated below from Adasi. Ty!:)
Skullcrushers: The best Monstrous Cavalry in the game IMO. Being very well costed, and being superior to MFC's, these guys will be near auto-include. But due to them being rare, we won't see massive blocks of them.
**I think they are comparable to MFC and cost slightly more. If you face these, Sabertusk them into oblivion.
Hellstriders: Annoying. They can tie up sabertusks and MFC's quite quickly, but they die after a few hits.
Okay, just thought this could help.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/projects/228786-twin-swords-gorehunt-saga.html

There is a link to my new Tzeentch 8th edition list if you want to see some ideas on how a Tzeentch player may equip his troops.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/projects/219549-gore-hunt-tribe.html

There is a link to my new Khorne 8th edition list if you want to see some ideas on how a Khorne player may equip his troops.

D6 wounds under the whole HC template is wishful thinking i'm afraid! HC has been changed so that only take panic test on a wound NOT just a hit!

Oh I love the model aswell Ash Born, but I feel that, it has a good few more liabilities then before. As far as I know, you can't get +1 Strenght/Toughness etc. twice over.
It's height is opening it to cannons, but 4++ does help and 5W too.
I think either dual-shrine or no shrine is a better tactic because there are more buffs, and more wounds.
I say cavalry armies will wreck this guy, being so fast and S6 lances nullify it's armour. Or VC Blood Fury or HKB.
The shrine is still good, no doubt, but I just think that it's older rules were better.
(Quick question, if this thing Miscasts, does it stop casting for the game?)

Umm I don't think the miscast has been mentioned.. Good question.

As far as buffs stacking, they sure do. You can get toughness over and over and over. You just can't go over a maximum of 10 according to the rules.

MoT Shrine is even tougher with a 3+ ward... If people are worrying about killing the damn thing, you are already winning

Had some more games against them now.

If they go for the ever popular chariot overload list that seems to be instantly popular then 3 sabertusks can kite them around all day and double ironblaster will ruin them!

Ironguts will ruin the chimera.

We dont have to worry about the Gorebeasts' KB impact hits.

Tzeentch magic is fairly nerfed and will likely result in us gaining an ever better regen save!

We DO have to worry about the demon princes! Nurgle demon princes with glittering scales are nigh on impossible top kill...khorne only slightky less so and can dish out some serious hurt. They are also unbreakable and currently DONT have the demonic instability rule (which i'm sure MUST get FAQ'd once eveyone has bought enough DP models)

Do NOT let the DP get into combat with your big block!

Whilst the warshrine has received serious nerfs, the very threat of raising a lowly champion to a demon prince should be enough to warrant your dispel dice!

MFC will ruin forsaken if they field them i big blocks.

As usual, we still fear the Death magic and Hellcannons

The Nurgle Prince gets lit up by Cannonballs and Poison Pistoleaters.  Its the unkillable Tzeench Disk guy that is a real concern, as even the VC scream shennanigans don't concern him too much.

Hey, guys! Where can I download the rule book of chaos?

Hey, guys! Where can I download the rule book of chaos?

You can purchase it at your local hobby shop.

Russia has no official stores GW.
Yes, yes, we are too wild for that.
I had already ordered the book, but I want to play now. When the book comes to me, is a new version comes out. 

"It's on its way, I already paid for it" Is what I would say too if I were trying to obtain it illegally.

No one is going to send it to you.

It is a pity I have to wait a month or more. (

Or get an Ipad...

If the chaos player puts the glittering scales on his nurgle DP you can thank him and aim every leadbelcher at the DP. He'll have an 4+/5++ tops. And the difference between hitting on an 6 and hitting on a 6 in CC is zero.

If the DP's got chaos armour, scaly skin and either the helm of many eyes, dawnstone or the shield which lets you ignore the first hit on a 2+, you'll need ironblasters in order to shoot the beast dead.  I expect to see one of theese 3 builds more often than the one with the glittering scales.

Personally I don't like the new chaos monsters, so I'll focus fire my ironblasters at them, as I don't like ugly models on the tabletop 

Actually, he can have the scaley skin gift and a mundane shield, if I recall.  So he can sport a 3+/5++ if he wants.  But the Tzeench Pony/Disc guy is a ton worse.

Actually he can sport a 1+/5++ or 2+ (re-rollable)/5++ if he wants. Plus offensive stuff.

But no mundane shield, only magic ones.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they were working out the best save a DP could have whilst also having the glittering scales

I think the scaly skin should not have been given to chaos warriors and their non-lizard heroes.

You presume to tell the Chaos Gods what they can and cannot give their champions

If I'm a god of chaos and I want my hero to have draconic scales I'm a gonna give him draconic scales 

I would have given them the "Tongue Of Spawn". Here, let me demonstrate,
"AAHAVATQVVFKCOCPSNQMDOCUDVWOCYEBTLVPDBSHCODTWVWOCPDMSBDUDOWBDJCOSNEBROCPGDYRJAVXBXSGFOQLAMSBXBDUSPOWBXBXPCBDOBOOBIESJDODBSJDODIWBANFKCID!"

I think that that is how one of the Grey Knight books ended.

I just barely had a fight with them at 3500 pts. 

Things that went well and tips for a future game.

1.  Maneaters with 2x pistols, poison, and flame banner will destroy a chymeara.  (It works... very well...)
2.  If they have a large calvalry block, let it fight your sabretusks, 1 after another, and you will tie it up for eons.  You could use gnoblars as well, but they're a little slower.  (bring them up behind for when the kitties are dead)
3.  Gut magic is your friend.  Chaos warriors don't do very well against T5 and Regen.  My ironguts pasted him.
4.  Ironblasters, nuf said.
5.  Hellheart.  I didn't kill any mages, but it completely shut down an entire magic phase during a crucial turn.  He had 2 dice after losing 2D6 from his miscasts.

You can do a lot of stuff depending on your list, but these are some things i found helpful.  After five turns I had my opponent completely demolished except for his unit of knights and lord on a juggernaut beast.  btw, that cavalry unit fought nothing but sabretusks and gnoblars for the ENTIRE game.  I strongly suggest doing that.  The mark of Khorne (Which he had) forces you to overrun, so stack your kitties and have gnoblars behind and he won't be able to do anything but kill worthless crap.

Final
Me - 2800
Him - 700

Played a game last night against a WoC army for a watchtower scenario where if you held the watchtower you got 10/20 points available.

Things I thought about them. Frosaken could be used as small flanking units for the amount they can dish out.

I don't want to face a Nurgle block in combat after my opponent gets a good magic phase of Nurglish power everywhere.

I believe that Nurgle tops Maw now for combat buffs hands down. spells are cheap and can be used to hex your opponent as well C'mon!

Would be nice if they released a booster pack of spell cards that updates other lore's to match the awesomeness of Nurgle.

I play agents chaos as one of the member of the club plays them! He has also talk another player in to running a army.I had games that were even but ive also had games that are so one side (the chaos side) like i played a game a week or 2 ago 750pts open battle and he got 2 daemon princes now whats a man to do agents that. the way i found that works is use 2 big mourfang units and 2 cannons if points will let and then work both mourfang on one unit and if u charged you should win the combat. then like ass good match ups hope for a bit of luck. may your gut be full

God of the Gnobl: Pleas edit your post. I know its "so cool" right now to liken getting beaten at a dice game to a horrifying experience such as rape, but it can cause quite a bit of offense to victims of it.

God of the Gnobl: Pleas edit your post. I know its "so cool" right now to liken getting beaten at a dice game to a horrifying experience such as rape, but it can cause quite a bit of offense to victims of it.

My goal wasn't to be offensive.  I was just using a common expression, (albeit a sensitive one) to make a point.  Hope there's no hard feelings.

No worries - wasn't taking offense myself per se, more just annoyance at its general use (i'm a teacher and its becoming a real bugbear to hear the kids use it so mindlessly!)

Faced a pretty unusual/rough warrior list last night, Daemon prince, unkillable disc BSB, chimera, 3 chariots, 3 gorbeast chariots, 3x6 fast cav, 3x5 dogs, hellcannon. Nothing gives up much points, hits hard, long charge ranges.

As my opponent was chariot heavy I faked a central deployment and went heavy on a flank as chariots cant march. Plan was to take out little units with magic, leadbelchers, and my little units, and cannon off some chariots, then not give up many points when the characters hit me. All was going to plan till the hellcannon took off my cannon with a direct hit.. but payback was my taking off the daemon prince with a big Amber Spear after he failed his ward.