Ogre Kingdoms Vs Empire

Share your tips on how to deal with Empire armies here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

ok, well having only fought empire at 500pts this wont be too indepth... i was using the wildcard pattern list....

i've found that empire can be a pain, as it's the only list i've played against that's given me a lot of trouble, to the point i cant beat it.

the list is

hero (captain?) on foot
1+ save sword of might

10 handgunners

20 spearmen

10 swordsmen detachment

5 knights (str 4(5) GW)


quite a nice list... with toothcracker i can take down the knights, thats no problem, what i've found destroys me in this list is the flank charge from the detachment after my ogres his his main unit (or vice versa), it makes combat res very hard to come by... well, enough to win at least... not sure if charging both units at once would work, not sure on the exact rules...

anyone else got any ideas on how to beat this?  i know it's a small game, but it's a problem that i think might comeup in bigger games too...

apart from that, dealing with heavy armour? knights etc? any good ideas?

Charge the detachments. The main unit doesn't get to flank charge you if you charge the detachments, and since the detachments are always small, and usually not very combat worthy you can easily charge, defeat and break them. Then you'll have a unit behind his lines, and his new nifty special rule does nothing for him.

under the new rules, the detachments can charge you if you charge the main, or vice versa... so there's no picking off the detachments anymore

Sorry,but wrong. "parent units" do NOT have the detachments special rules like counter-charge,etc.
If the parent unit fails its charge (due tio fear,etc.) the detachment can NOT charge/move/shoot that turn either.(p39)
So if you charge the parent unit,the detachment must still make a fear test to counter-charge you.
I got the New Empire book.

i know the parent unit has to take fear checks, i know the detachment does... i meant that if you charge the detachment the parent unit can counter charge, assuming all fear checks are passed (i am only going on what i was told by the guy i was playing against)

Well then ask him to read the rules again.
Detachments can counter charge in the turn the parent is charged.
You can't do it vice versa.

Then your opponent has been cheating reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly badly dude. What is your list? Maybe it will be easier to help then.

Cheers,
Grog.

no no no it's all cool, we sat and down and read the rules again... you guys were right, but it wasnt him cheating, in thw white dwarf it said you can do it both ways, so he assumed that it was in the rules

he's now maybe changing to high elves... lol

either way, my list was the basic Wildcard pattern list, although i'm starting to become against the use of gnoblars...

Never trust anything thats in WD. Its apalling...

haha, the other funny thing is the preview pack that the store's got sent ALSO had this in it it was supposed to be a selling point of the army

GW's full of screwups

As for Empire, I would warn people to beware of outriders.  They can lay down a tremendous amount of shooting damage and with the str4 armor piercing they will be taking out ogres left and right.  I'd put them perhaps the highest on my priority list vs Empire.

try fighting this:

warrior priest
armor of meteoric iron
great wepon
119

19 swordsmen           detachment:5 hadgunners
musican                   detachment:5 halberdier
standard bearier
186

great cannon
100

5 pistoliers
95


Thats my border patrol list who has a 75% score ratio.And here is the deployment

s:swordsmen
d:detachent
c:cannon
p:pistoliers



ddddd   sssss                     ppppp
        c sssss  ddddd
           sssss
           sssss
           sssss

looks like a solid list - what beat you?

A VC WITH 6 POWER DICE IN A 500 GAME

Well, there are 5 extra sowrdsmen...maybe that's why you couldn't beat 6 PD.

But seriously, the steam tank is evil! It hits like a ton of bricks, then like an asteroid the size of Asia! Sadly, there nothing you can do to stop it but survive.

I'd say a steamtank can be baitand flee'ed as well as any other unit (unless I'm missing something key in it's rules). All you need is to get a tyrant with a tenderizer i nthere and you'll reduce it to rubble as you hit automatically and wound pretty easily. But I'd wager the two ways to do this are outmaneuver (bait and flee etc) the tank until you get the charge or put the Tyrant in a big unit of ogres and hope when he chagres it the big man is left standing

Thanks
Corai

I just played Empire yesterday in a 1000-point war. I got massacred horribly, partly due to the worst rolling I have ever done.  Taking nothing away from my opponent, it wasn't only my rolling that lost me the game. But as I rolled poorly in combat against the high CR Empire troops, I realized how much Ogres can rely on dice rolling to give them a chance (especially against troops with a static +5/6), since their combt res is pretty much based on number of wounds alone. Is this realization a sad truth against an army like Empire, or are there ways to combat this?

Reading through this thread and the archived thread, doesn't really shed any light on this. The only thing I can think of to win a combat like that is getting either gnoblars (whic in my experience are too slow to get on an opponent's flank) or another Ogre unit on their flank to deny ranks and have a flank. You have to try to take them on 2-on-1, break them, and move on to the next combat (ideally). It's not an easy thing to do.

Along these lines, I just want to know how other Ogres attempt to combat this problem Ogres have against Empire and what works for them. Thanks,

sardO

agaisnt any high CR unit ogres have to go 2 on 1. This is just good advice for any opponent really. Relying on a single unit to break on the charge without somethng to either inflict more wounds or negate their ranks is far too dependent on luck

Thanks
Corai

I agree with Corai on this one you really have to go 2 on one against high CR armies, and especialy against empire with their detachments supporting charges. I guess a tenderiser tyrant that get´s to challenge might swing CR in your favor but that´s sort of a one trick thing so not really a solution.

cheers

With the detachments, it is hard to get an Ogre unit on the flank, especially if they play defensive (both main infantry parent units deployed very close to each other, and the other flank denied by the detachment). So do you just charge two units of Ogres on their front and maximize the amount of Ogres you can get in, or is their a better way? When you can't get on their flank it's still very difficult to beat their static CR. It's not like they don't have any other threats (you still have to worry about knights coming over to help). Or perhaps do you to try to get rid of the knights first?

well I tend to save some dice for a bonecruncher spell. Agaisnt empire knights I make sure to attempt trollguts towards the end of the magic phase, as most players either know if it,, or hear it's results and pin it as our best spell. If I can get them to pour some dice or spells into stopping it then I ca get bonecruncher off once or twice. and with only toughness 3 and great armour the bonecruncher can really make short work of them.

With detachments, If there's no way to get an ogre unit on the flank (e.g. detachment is so close to parent unit you would have to charge detachment instead) the charge the detachment in the flank. A unit of ogres will rip right through 10 free company, and if you break them or wipe them out, just fopllow up into the flank of the parent unit. as long as you do the flank chrage first you can ensure you still get both ogres to fight agaisnt the high CR unit.

Thanks
Corai

Sounds excellent, but I think it's easier said then done. Let me show you roughly how he deployed:
k-knights (5 knights)
o-outriders (5)
d-detachment (10 halberdiers in each unit)
s-swordsmen (23 in each parent unit --each one had a captain -one being a BSB, other being his general)
-he also took a cannon (not relevant in this discusion)

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd 

So, following your advice, it sounds like it would work great, but how can I get on his detachments flank with Fast Cav Outriders and Knights right there? Bonecrucher can only do so much... I can't just ignore his cavalry...

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd

in the above example you obviously want to be coming in front the right flank. A unit of bulls, guts or yhetees are all great for this, but yhetees may prove espescailly useful as they can negotiate the terrain often found along the flanks of boards. Realistically, the five knights should have a hard time surving two bonecruncher spells, but the outriders also pose a problem (as do the knights who could just as easily survive). I'd throw a cheap unit of gnoblars in their way to act as both a screen for the outriders guns and a roadblock. But then I usua;lly advance slower than regular ogre movemtn to facilitate staggerin units and omcbined charges so gnoblars can ususally keep up. A unit of sacrifical bulls placed either in the way of the knights path to your guts or right in fron of them to to weather the storm for a round, or bait and flee away should solve your problems

As, I understand, the outriders havbe some pretty nasty ranged power, you would probabley want both a block of fighters and some bulls in there to make sure you still have your bait/roadblock in place. Trappers can slo take up a lrage amount of board

Thanks
Corai

How exactly does that allow me to charge the detachment's flank as you explained earlier?  The way you explained it, I would have 2 units of IG's, 2 Leadbelchers and a unit of Bulls (w/ Bruiser) heading towards his parent units (other Bulls being used to tie up knights). And I don't run a Butcher. Since you seem to be assuming a Butcher is in my army, if I put one in that takes out a unit of IG's. Now I only have a unit of IG's (w/ Butcher), 2 Leadbelchers, and a unit of Bulls (w/ Bruiser) heading for his parent units. Now it's back to the main problem again. It's (basically -- 2 Leadblechers aren't going to do much in combat) 1-on-1 again.  This isn't even factoring in the Cannon and Outriders weaking my units...

well first of all, you didn't tell me what was in your list, you asked how I would achieve the flanking maneuver I suggested. I thought I had explained how I would counter the threat of the knights (obviously not ) so I'll try and be clearer. I am going to endeavour to continue to give general advice pertainign to this situation rather than specific advice regarding your army build as it is not one /i would field myself so am not qualified to comment:

The battle line looks like this.
kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd

As I understand it, you are having trouble with the two large blocks of swordsmen who have better saves than the average trooper (do they still have better Ws?) and will have, presumably a static combat res of at least 4 (3 ranks + standard). As already established, 1 hammer unit of ogres (I favour ironguts and don't really consider bulls, even fully tooled up to be a hammer unit). To outweigh this you need to endeavour to get a 2-on-1 unit ratio with the high static combat res swordsmen. To do this safely you will need 3 units. a Hammer unit (H) a sacrifical unit (S) and a flanking Unit (F). I personally favour Iron Guts for hammers, naked bulls or gnoblars for sacrifical and either naked (or tooled to your tastes) bulls or, better yet, yhetees as flankers.

You want to position these units to get a charge off allowing the following finishing positions

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss ddddF
                                                     HHH                     
                                          SSS                               

In this set up, your hammer unit is protected from a flank charge from the other block of spearmen by the sacrifical unit. The desired outcome (obviosuly it's always up to the whim of the dice gods! ) is that the yhetees will fight first (your turn so you choose the combat order) and either slaughter (impossible without a greyback and the luck of the Irish) or kill even a few of the militia. If you only manage to kill 2, they are denied any attacks back and will loose combat, being beaten by a fear casuing enemy which outnumbers them. It's unlikely they'll pass their insanse courage test and break.(unless detachments have some stubborn rule I am unaware of, in which case you'll just have to kill them all!) The flee will take them into the unit s and H's cmobat, destroying them. Meanwhile, your unit F can pursue (or overrun) the relatively small distance into combat s and H. If everything goes according to plan, the line should now look like this:

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss F
                                                     HHH        
                                          SSS                  

Suddenly you've got 2 units of ogres in combat (so after fighting are now likely to get the outnumber bonus) you've denied them any rank bonus and get a flank bonus. If you have your own standard you should now be ahead on static combat res, and ogres do do a good job of killing thinlings.

There are of course variations on this. If you have no other uits to deal with unit s thenthey will become a problem. You can't flank them in the same way so would need a differant approach needing at least 2 units. You cannot get to the flanks of the detachment d becasue of the knghts and outriders, so instead of cancelling their ranks, you need to aim for outright slaughter to net you combat res. Try for something like this:

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss ddddF
                               FFF HHH         HHH                
                   SSS                                                       

In the above example, the sacrifical unit is again protecting the left flank form a countercharge from the outriders and knights. the unit H is in combat with the big combat res unit and unit F is in combat with both units. the flankers are typically less 'hitty' than your hammers units so they can deal with killing some militia for easy combat res. This isn't as sure thing (if anything really is) than the previous maneavour and relies a lot more on dice and you racking up kils, but there is little alternative I can see within the limits of my own tactical knowledge and experience.

This is all somewhat acadmeic as you will still have to ctach and kill the knights at some point. Bonecruncher is probably our best way of doing this, but I would run a sacrifical unit up as a bait and flee and prepare a countercharge with another hammer unit. when Empuire knights don't get the charge they aren't that good, and even full plate armour will only get them a 5+ save against the coutner charge of the ironguts.

That's what units like trappers, or even the bangstick are there for. I know not everyone fields butchers at this points level but I do personally. either way, trappes can mae a nusiance of themselves, hunt warmahcine crew and outriders, or successful screenining of your units will lesson the effect of the outriders and cannons

I hope this has been a bit clearer and more useful, I think this is what you were asking

Thanks
Corai

EDIT NOTE: the units F in all above examples should be 3 wide, but the formatting was cuasing all sorts of troubles and was more confusing than anything else. If unclear, the intention is that F is as wide as any other ogre uinit (in these examples therefor FFF) but arranged vertically rather than horizontally

Yes, this helps me a lot. The only problem is (I failed to mention) that the detachment on the right flank was right on the board edge, which means that flank is not an option to get to. I'm sure that changes things a lot. Although your second variation may work though. I'll try it next time I play Empire. 

Alright how about a 2150 point empire list? ive just began playing ogres after being a dedicated Bret and Dark Elf player, and honesly the thought of great cannons and outriders are terrifying with OKs low(er) numbers.

I know so far ill face a warrior priest lord and potentially 2 heros, with a battle wizard thrown in.

Coupled with this magic there will be one unit of outriders (possibly pistoliers as well), and at least 2 great cannons.

The core of the army will will be halberdiers as hes trying to stay true to empire traditions, but close combat does not worry me, its harrying my troops with missile fire that seems like it has potential to decimate.

Im thinking i will take a Gorger to storm the cannons with some knoblar trappers and hope he doesent get a hill, limiting their potential for carnage.  Magic wise between two butchers and assorted magic resistances his magic does not pose much of a problem, the real issue lies in the fact that he could literally sit back and blast my army to bits for the first two turns!  anyway, suggestions? i havent played a game with OK yet as i just recieved my order a week ago so im curious as to the differences of their playstyle, especially against a cowardly "shooty" army.  Im liking the MSU approach, but the idea of panicking cannonfodder seems like a strong possbility, as if he gets a hill the cannons shoot anyone, if not they go on the flank to shoot up my yhetees or hunter that try and take it out.  My opponent is extremly experienced with empire, so any tips or suggestions are appreciated.

Pistoliers and outriders are going to be a major problem for ogres- all those shots should really tear the big guys up. You will have to go MSU so as to spread your muscle around and make sure a single round of shooting won't neutralise your army. Trappers and gorgers are required, yhetees might also be good with their ability to travel through cover. I haven't yet played new Empire, but I own the book and those are my thoughts.

On the subect of:

-Outriders, they are move or fire, just don't end your move where they can shoot you.
-Outriders, Pistoliers, Cannons, IC Knights, Mortars: all are special slots (yay).
-Detatchments, shoot them down under 4 models or charge them before charging the main.
-Cannons, don't be scared stiff, they aren't that bad unless you get enfiladed. Don't get enfiladed.
-Shooters, I like using trappers here, charging a shooting unit in the rear will neuter them long enough or if you can't do that put the trappers in the line of fire. They're just gnoblars, so who cares? Also the gorger is useful vs shooters.
-Knights, use magic -most spells will help out, or gnoblar bait or indeed let the gnoblars duke it out. Gnobbos will prolly be 3 up on static cr, they may yet win. Using Ironguts is also popular, but vs units that have characters and such it can be costly if the knights get the charge.

Can someone give me some advice against 10 Inner circle knights w/ lances

My friend always takes them and every time he beats me, he takes them with a Captain and luther huss,
I've tried shooting it, but that didn't work I think my problem is that I rarely ever take sabretusks because how I build my lists

Guts Star? They only have one attack right? even with S 6, you should have enough bodies there to absorb the damage and chop them up something silly.

I've never really had an issue with them but here's some more options.

Magic: I generally use Heavens SM and any of the buffs are amazing for us here. Anything that helps negate the attacks coming in or ensures you can stuff them. Dont underestimate the usefulness of Wind Blast against a IC bus. pushing them back a possible 7" can really wreck the charge they've been planning and gives you another turn of magic.

Consider however, using a Death SM with Fencers, Glittering Robe, OTS in a big unit of guts with the +1Ld banner. You now have a good few chances to snipe off his characters in the unit before combat at which point the IG's will devastate them without the Hatred etc...

I dont think you particularly need kitties to kite it - dont get me wrong, a flank into anything is tasty.

I would also reccomend some Leadbelchers to pick off a few IC's or just kill his pistoleers that might otherwise cause you a nuisance.

Of course, sticking some scouting ItP ME's behind his lines will make him think twice about his target priorities.

Just a fw bits - hope it helps

This is my experience with Empire.  L ot GM is killer.  Take a SM and shut down their magic.  I only ever take 1 hero and i have a lot of small but deadly units running around.  It works, really well.  I have never lost with the new book and I have faced almost every team.

Empire usually hoards.  Let their hoard sit in the center and fight gnoblars and cats.  Kill everything on the perimeter, it won't be hard because all his points are stuck in a hoard that is fighting chaff.  Once the perimeter is gone, gang flank from 2 or 3 sides.  After 1 round of combat with their hoard being devastated, they will usually resign, if they don't, kill it over the next turn or two. 

One of my lists that devastated empire:

2500 points

SM, lvl 4, Dispel scroll, ehw  313

8 Bulls w/ fists and command  286
8 Ironguts with command  374
10 Gnoblars  25
10 Gnoblars  25

5 Lead belchers,  215
5 Lead belchers,  215
Sabre  21
Sabre  21
Sabre  21
Gorger  90
Gorger  90
2 Mournfang, ha, fist  140
5 Maneaters ehw, ha, scout and swiftstride, command

Iron blaster  170
Iron blaster  170

2496

I have crushed so many people with lists similar to this.  People are fascinated with heros and big units in 8th, ya, they are pretty good.  But think about the killing potential you can have when you get rid of your BSB, your fire belly(that is only there to cancel regen), your butcher(that is only there so you can take another lore, but why would you?), your hunter(please tell me nobody takes this in a serious list), and your tyrant(mean but pricy and he forces your to bubble usually).  Spend your points on the best combat units available.  Let other people get heros.

If you've had success with big blocks and lots of characters then stick with it, but I have decimated list after list by getting small amounts of beating power and outmaneuvering my opponents.

Can someone give me some advice against 10 Inner circle knights w/ lances

My friend always takes them and every time he beats me, he takes them with a Captain and luther huss,
I've tried shooting it, but that didn't work I think my problem is that I rarely ever take sabretusks because how I build my lists

Bonecruncher, its hilarious.

Or just take their one round on the chin and from that point on laugh as the expensive unit flails around helplessly in combat.

Knights with Lances do damage on the charge and thats it. After that they are just piddly little humans with 1+ armor.

Friends,

I would like to suggest this thread for a good read about empire vs OK - taken from the empire perspective.

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26563

Here are various build suggested to make it a rough battle for us - when facing empire expect some of these tricks: )

Happy gaming and good luck!

Hi guys,

I've played two games today and I faced a unit of pistoliers. I've never seen them before, so I wasn't sure how to cope with them. I also read this thread before that game, so I already expected it to be kinda hard. Anyway this is how I dealt with them: Use your butcher! When the pistolier come close or even behind you (which they'll try!) split off your butcher and march on with your ogres. You butcher, now on its own, can simply face them (instead of the slow wheeling of the entire unit of ogres, taking away combat power at the front and delaying your whole line). I used a bangstick, often giving them a panic test right away. Or you can hope for a nice bonecrusher. A braingobler did the job once aswell, though they often have a musician and should return to the fray quite quickly. Anyway, I'll hope this advice is worth something.

Greetz,
Roy

Quick question.  If you run a wide unit of Ogres (4 Ogres and a character = 5 wide) and you charge a unit of Empire infantry that is five wide - you will have a big overlap on both sides of the Empire forces.  If the detachment has been deployed 3-4" away from the parent unit, and can't get to the flank of the charging Ogre unit without wheeling twice - do they then have to charge the front of the Ogre unit?

detatchments can always choose to go into the flank, I believe - even if they start in the front arc. 

On a related topic though, why are you running ogres 5 wide????  Lack of maneuverability alone would make me think 3 times before trying that!

I am playing a prac game v Empire tomorrow night - lists are set - for an upcoming tourney, so I can't cater it exclusively to face the Empire... However I do have units of 4 Ogres and 2 Characters (it is 1500pts) - so theoretically, I could have a 5 wide Ogre Unit...

I know that Detachments can always charge into the flank - even if they started in the front arc, but AFAIK - they are still subject to the normal charge rules - so they only get the one wheel during a charge...   If the battle looked like this...  (Ogres have been spaced to indicate base size, parent unit of Halberdiers, detach of Swords)


                     O-O-O-O-O
                      hhhhh
                      hhhhh sss
                      hhhhh sss
                      hhhhh

The specific wording of the Empire book indicates that if they can have LOS to the flank, and sufficient movement to get there, then they can charge the flank, but this charge is still subject to the normal charge rules, meaning only one wheel, etc...   I was just wondering whether a really wide frontage on the Ogres may actually be able to prevent a flank charge by the detachment (because they can't actually touch a flank with only one wheel in the charge - only the front (or corner).  Or is this just wishful thinking?

actually, under that situation it seems like it might work - however, mostly a detatchment won't be hard up against their parent unit like that - and being 3" or so more to one side will give them the LoS they need. Also, they'll generally be 5 wide also, increasing their chance of them having that LoS too.

If I was to run 5+ ogres in a unit, I'd still only go a max of 4 wide at the front to keep movement easier to handle.