Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Empire

Summary from the old forum:

- Gurtruck Ribcrusha


- slaughteredbull


- justanotherogre


- Shawn Michaels


- Shawn Michaels


- Groghog the Blind

I should share this here since i play against a good player that uses empire. For sure that empire have alot of units and they have crazy shooting power. As my friend told me, it's better to devided the table in half and concentrate on 1 side instead of spreading your units. Screening gnoblars doesn't work for me besides the cannon will blast by them anyways and if they bicker, your ogres are stuck behind.
I guess the best thing is to put many units of 4 and make sure to have 3 butchers. If some units can regenerate after getting hit by a cannon ball at strength 10 then all the better.
Protect your flank depending what the side you took on the table because his cavalry will hurt. At least you have only one side to worry about.

As an Empire player, I know I really dont like any tunnelling/ambushing units. So Gorgers are a good choice.
If I were to face any of the tactics above, I'd shoot the flanking units first. You Ogres really dont want to be charging my front because of the detachments.

and on a final note: MSU units panic easily

As an Empire player-turned-Ogre I have never versed a full OK army before. Just mercs but in general there are several things that all Empire generals fear.

#1: Get something tough and fast in front of the artillery. In fact get anything nasty near the artillery and I start to panic and usually end up using grapeshot. It seems that hunter and his kitties could be very handy in these cirumstances (16" charge)

#2:Big units of bulls. Ip ersonally would be far more scared of six bulls with full command than four units of three. They're easier to get into place and I hate that 12" charge. Which leads onto...

#3:High movement. The fastest unit in my army has a move of 7. Your standard troops have a movement of 6. Stuff like yhetees or hutners with longstrider could really put a crimp in an Empire player's day.

#4: Scraplauncha. As mentionned before. I've never had to face one but that thing gets straight off target priority for my cannons.

#5: Gnoblar trappers. Unorthodox I know but use these dudes to take out artillery crew. They're cheaper than gorgers (who should be near the front line, attacking detachments) but just as effective. A cannonball doesn't go through them quite as easily either.

#6:Maneaters. The Empire gets by in combat pretty much on static CR alone. Stubborn troops can be a real pain. If they can fight back they're all the nastier.

Hope this stuff helps in your games versus the mighty Empire.
Cheers
Poly

The problem with this is that the Ogre unit won't be doing enough wounds to negate your +6 CR (standard, outnumber, ranks, flanking detachment). The idea of multiple small units is that one is hitting you in the side   .
Additionally, the unit of six is presumably deployed in two ranks. This means that the bull charge is of higher strength (but you can avoid the bull charge anyway), but doesn't get any more attacks on your opponent.

A unit of 25 Swordsmen with full command costs less than a unit of six bulls with no command or upgrades at all, and my money is frankly on the swords, even if the bulls get the charge. If they were two separate bull units of three, however, the flank charge negates ranks and balances the potential flank from a detachment.

With regard to panic, it is true that small units panic faster. But you have more of them, so this is not such a bad thing.

I am completely convinced that the best way to defeat Empire (or Skaven, or Gobbos, for that matter) is to make the ratio of enemy units to your units as low as possible. If you can have more units on the board than your opponent, the game is already half won.

25 Swordsmen with full command and two ten man free company detachments'll set you back 300pts.

6 Bulls with Full Command cost 308pts.

And...I appear to have proved your point    The swordsmen will probably win in this situation. I'd just be a lot more intimidated by them. Detachments can prevent flank charges pretty effectively. Only viable way to take one out while still having ogres in a position to flank is to use the every-handy trappers to hold up the detachment while the big guys move in.

I have played empire 3 times.  In each battle my small units have done little or nothing.  I primarily use them to flee from charges so I can set up my bigger units.  It is my big units (I usually run 6 in a unit) that prove unstoppable.  4 wide in the front is best.  Empire usually holds a tight line so its just too hard to get more than one unit in on the charge (though yhetees can sometimes manage this on one of the flanks).  Of course a combined charge would work if he gives you an opening.  But since that's usually not an option until later in the game when the lines get all out of whack, you need a "wedge-buster" hammer-type unit for the initial clash.  For these, ironguts or maneaters are the way to go.

I always challenge with the Tenderizer for the overkill.  Ironguts and Tyrant w/Tenderizer produce so many wounds that they never get to fight back and I am usually able to makeup the static CR of the large Empire units.  I also make sure to have standard bearer with the warbanner and I usually come out on top.  Detatchments can also fail their fear tests to counter charge.  The only thing to really avoid is the griffon standard.  If you're not stubborn (w/toothcracker) you might lose a battle with a unit that has that standard.

Of course knights or greatswords would be harder.  For greatswords, I'd prefer maneaters.  3-4 maneaters with longswords should kill enough greatswords on the charge that none will be able to strike back.  The next round, the maneaters will go first and again none should be able to strike back (repeat until unit dies).  You can bring in support charges to speed up the process.

For knights, you probably will only lose one maneater when they charge.  You'll probably need some support to come in and win the battle, a unit of gnoblars would be ideal for this.  They can come in on the second round and add enough bonuses that you'll be able to take out the knights on turn 2.  Gorgers would be even better to just hold up knights for a couple of turns while you mop up the rest of his army.

Having said this, I agree that 6 Bulls aren't that tough and aren't great as a hammer unit.  Even though 6 Ironguts are way more points, I have found that they are worth it.  You only need 2 big units like this in an army (mine has 5 Ironguts + Tyrant and 3 maneaters + BSB).  And you only need one of them to get across the battlefield in tact.

I've only played 3 games against Empire, but this is what's worked for me so far.

I agree completely, wildHunter. My point about small units was restricted to Bulls. You DO need a hammer unit. Bulls just aren't strong enough to provide this.

Anyone ever faced a steam tank?  I don't even know what the rules for them are but I was wondering what an ogre list would do against such a unit.  I have heard they are a pretty tough nut to crack.

You can find the rules on the GW website.

I am categorically against the use of steam tanks, purely because I firmly believe that NO unit should have a rule set that requires SIX FREAKIN' PAGES!!!

Basically, in a game setting, you have to rely on your opponent telling the truth about what it does, so it may be worth reading the rules before facing an empire player.

A charge from three ironguts can trim 10+ hullpoints off of a steamtank, that is enough to cripple it for the game.

The rules for a steamtank are a bit blurry but if you cause impact hits then you have to take impact hits on EACH model that causes impact hits.

So a unit of 4 bulls with its 4 str 4 hits will first have to take 4D6 S6 impact hits. I dont like the odds myself. Now a gTyrant with the siege breaker will be doing 5D6 worth of auto hits on a steam tank. As a single ogre he doesnt cause impact hits so therefore doesnt get any back. You should be able to FUBAR a steamtank in one turn. I mean the odds are 15 - 30wounds and I like those odds.

Hey, all! I have a tactic that I have used successfully vs empire (and if it's a cheat please tell me so):

I line up my 3 - 4 bull units so that when they charge they each hit several empire units, preferably detachments first, main units on the aligning wheel in and so, instead of having say two separate fights I have one big rumble!

The reason, of course, is that while all my casualty CR stacks, his ranks and outnumber only count once, so if my 2 units of bulls cause 3 casualties per unit they would individually lose against a ranked up unit each, but if I get them into a combined fight vs 2 ranked up units they might win.

This only works if his units are standing close to each other, but is my alternative to flank charging if he's all scrunched up tight.

Also, technically you're not allowed to wheel in a charge if it means less models are included in b2b, so that's an issue to consider.

Against Empire, always get gorgers, trappers, a hunter, and yhettees to take out the artilary and shooting.  Then you can just run around and kill his detachments before ganging up and hitting his best unit from all sides  Once you get rid of the empires guns, its just man vs. ogre, and my moneys on the ogre everytime

I would personally take MSU and run around him.  Speed and the ability to pick your fights is what wins you the games against the Empire.  Remember in a fair fight the empire should win, so do everything you can to stack hte final combat in your favor 

my last game was versus a men-and-cavalry-only empire army. no war machine. it was a kind of relief but i was a little worried when i saw the quantity of parent units and detachements he had.

what worked well for me:

+ogres in second ranks: when the detachements were counter-charging, i had more attacks on them
+he couldn't do nothing versus the +1 TO given by toothcracker (except dispel it )
+gorger coming from the back is sw33t

not so well:
-the handgunners killed my maneaters from far away
-the butcher caused 3 wounds on himself while casting trollguts...even with the halfling cookbook 

A good way to do this is to use four bulls, with three in the front rank, and one in the second. This means that, no matter which flank you get hit on, you have six attacks, while not having to shell out for the extra two bulls to get a full rank of three.

Against the empire list just mentioned (no artillery) the 4 bull solution is great, but I have never faced an empire list with no artillery and almost always there are at least two cannons, anybody on the back rank is just asking for a cannon shot.  2d6 wounds on a unit of ogres is no fun. 

Last night I actually played against 3 cannons and even with my characters in units and lookout gnoblars, one of my butchers died on turn 1 and I only managed to save my tyrant getting killed by making the +5 ward save.  I spent the rest of the game hiding from the cannons and my gorgers did little more than disctract the cannons for a shot (and die).  Anyone got a good solution for facing cannon heavy armies?

you could load up on yhetees, trappers and gorgersd and throw all your fast moving stuff a tthem. That or even consider taking a couple of giants. They're bound to expend a couple of turns shooting at the big guys whilst the gangerous part of your army gets within range.

Thanks
Corai

I did have a unit of yhetees last night but I didn't not use them for war machine hunting.  I'll have to try that next time.  My trappers were positioned to charge his cannon in turn 2 but they bickered, got shot by his crossbowmen and panicked.  That might have made things tolerable.  My biggest problem is that its so hard to protect my characters from cannon sniping.  I guess the giant could make for a decent decoy but I don't think its a very decently effective unit in combat due to the lack of stubborness so I currently don't own one (though I like the new model).  Gorgers are hit or miss.  Sometimes they just don't come in early enough and the damage has already been done.  I wish we could take more than 2 gorgers or that they could come in on turn one with a 5+ so that we'd have a better chance of getting them in early.

why are you finding it so hard to keep your characters from cannon sniping? Can they not hide in a unit with a look out gnoblar and weather the storm till combat?

Thanks
Corai

WildHunter just make sure you have some look out gnoblars and you should be fine.. unless you unlucky. Also only the empire great cannon does d6 wounds so you should be able to survive the smaller cannons. Great warmachine killers are trappers. You will be able to charge on turn 2 with there scout ability and trust me 3 empire crewman onto 8 trappers charging is going the trappers way easily. 5 would get in 2.5 would hit and about 1 wound. Plus you get outnumber. So you would probaly win by one .
You must of just been unlucky how they bickered in that game. Another great war machine hunter is a hunter give him longstrider and you should be able to charge on turn 2 depending how far he started away
Tri

I actually did have my characters all in units with lookout gnoblars, but here was the problem:  I had the general and a butcher in with a unit of 3 ironguts.  I mistakenly didn't leave enough space to go five wide, so one irongut got stuck in the back rank.  His first shot thus killed 2 ironguts.  His second shot was at my general but I made the 5+ ward save.  On the third shot he killed the butcher.  Anyway, even if I had not made this mistake, he just needs to kill one irongut for the lookout gnoblar to become useless unless I take a bigger unit.  But since I was trying MSU that would change my whole army. 

I think with three cannons it may just be impossible to avoid quick character deaths.  Even with a big unit, you will probably have to go with 2 ranks meaning he can kill 2 ogres per turn until he gets you down to under three regular ogre troops and so at best even a big unit will just mean character sniping happens on turn 2 instead of turn 1.  This seems to me to be why the hunter is ineffective.  He can be sniped easily if he goes after the cannon.  And if I take him, I have to lose a butcher and my magic phase suffers as well.

Just take a hunter and have 2 units of trappers. On turn two get 1 to charge rear of cannon and other to charge rear of another cannon. 2 cannons elimated 1 to go
Although it depends how much terrain the store has

based on how far away from the enemy scouts have to deploy there's no physical way that the trappers could be within 1st turn charge range of the cannons

Thanks
Corai

I meant second .
If there is some terrain there consider yourself lucky though.
That and they might bicker.
I have bickered at the worst of time, about to charge the rear of some wood elf bowmen 
Tri

My first game against Empire last night and only my second ever game of Fantasy. I have only been playing for 3 years and thats been 40k. Very slow to get into the hobby alas.

Anyway i faced an old sparring partner with his Empire.

He had two blocks of men swords and spears i think with 2 canon and a hell blaster. Then had an 800pt unit of 15 horse with 2 big characters. These guys had a +1 save. I thought that was impossible!!

The stars of the show for me were my 2 Gorgers ripped the heads off the two big guys in the Horse squad. A single Leadbelcher taking out 2 canons and hell blaster single handed, very funny, and Gnoblars from scraplaunchers taking out two of the horse men.

Downside my butcher rolled a 1 on the miscast on turn 1!!!! And my Irongut unit with Tyrant rundown by lots of horses.

I lost but made a good game of it.

Empire dont have to roll for spells or prayers so they get the effect without worring about miscast sounds too powerful. Seems unblanced to me.

Well the priests don't have to do that for prayers, but a wizard still has to roll for his spells to get through.

The prayers works the same way as the bangstick

He had a 800 pt unit of 15 horsmen with two fighty characters?
What type of horses were they too cost so much points. Inner Circle knights?
Tri

Lexy, yes they were priests.

Tri, yes they were innercircle dudes i think.

One other funny was when my Scraplauncher hit a unit in the flank and stole the war banner. They rock in close combat with charge, Rhinox and Gnoblar hits

If there's a Grandmaster and a Warrior Priest, that's 245 points + equipment (potentially 150 points) right there, so IC Knights should add up to about that. That's a monster unit, and will roll up most units in the game if they get the charge, but is idiotically expensive from an Empire player. If he's got a unit that size, it means he is incredibly weak elsewhere in the field.

You can:

(a) Ignore his hammer unit, attempt to outmanoeuvre it (15 knights is, well, almost unmanoeuvrable) and slaughter the rest of his army piecemeal. Difficult when you path of approach is being governed by three cannons, but doable.

(b) Trap his unit. March a unit of gnoblars or naked Bulls right up in front of them (like, an inch), so they can't really move, while placing a unit of IGs and a unit of gnoblars to either side. He will either charge you, in which case you flee the hell out of there. You may get run down, but you will be waiting to hit him in both flanks with your Ironguts (S6 to carve through their 1+ AS) and a unit of gnoblars (+3 rank bonus). This should see you strolling into combat with a healthy +4 static CR (taking a banner will ensure the nullification of his own). Not too shabby for the gutted ones. Statistically, your Ironguts will put ~3 unsaved wounds on the knights, meaning they won't get to swing back (perhaps with one, doing an average of much less than 1 wound). Your gnobs will put max 1 wound on, and will probably lose 2 in return, but you are still 6 ahead. See that 800 point unit fail its Break test against Ld 3 will make you all warm and fuzzy inside.
If he decides not to charge you, he is going to be stuck in basically the same position when it gets to your turn, and you can charge him with all three units (note - depending on what he has in his front line - characters and such-, it may be a really silly idea to charge him in the front - you don't want to give his hard-hitting characters too much of a change to swing at you and add to his CR).

Playing Empire is all about the movement phase. If you can nullify his ability to call the shots, the battle is half won. Empire troops are lousy. Even their knights are lousy. Empire relies on static CR to bring the day home. If you can limit his ability to claim ANY static CR, the other half of the battle is won.
This may seem weird, but a lot of this will rely on forcing him to make the first move. Forgo the bull charge in favour of the best possible position. Baiting and fleeing is your friend.

Ogre Tyrants are some of the baddest fighters in the Warhammer world. Empire characters aren't. No Empire player is going to let you slap his general down with a Tenderiser, so don't bother. Skimp totally on characters. Against Empire, an extra unit of three bulls is going to do you more good than full warrior kit for your Tyrant.

My first game against Empire last night and only my second ever game of Fantasy. I have only been playing for 3 years and thats been 40k. Very slow to get into the hobby alas.

Anyway i faced an old sparring partner with his Empire.

He had two blocks of men swords and spears i think with 2 canon and a hell blaster. Then had an 800pt unit of 15 horse with 2 big characters. These guys had a +1 save. I thought that was impossible!!

The stars of the show for me were my 2 Gorgers ripped the heads off the two big guys in the Horse squad. A single Leadbelcher taking out 2 canons and hell blaster single handed, very funny, and Gnoblars from scraplaunchers taking out two of the horse men.

Downside my butcher rolled a 1 on the miscast on turn 1!!!! And my Irongut unit with Tyrant rundown by lots of horses.

I lost but made a good game of it.

Empire dont have to roll for spells or prayers so they get the effect without worring about miscast sounds too powerful. Seems unblanced to me.

Empire dont have to roll for spells or prayers so they get the effect without worring about miscast sounds too powerful. Seems unblanced to me.

Well the priests don't have to do that for prayers, but a wizard still has to roll for his spells to get through.

The prayers works the same way as the bangstick

He had a 800 pt unit of 15 horsmen with two fighty characters?
What type of horses were they too cost so much points. Inner Circle knights?
Tri

Lexy, yes they were priests.

Tri, yes they were innercircle dudes i think.

One other funny was when my Scraplauncher hit a unit in the flank and stole the war banner. They rock in close combat with charge, Rhinox and Gnoblar hits

If there's a Grandmaster and a Warrior Priest, that's 245 points + equipment (potentially 150 points) right there, so IC Knights should add up to about that. That's a monster unit, and will roll up most units in the game if they get the charge, but is idiotically expensive from an Empire player. If he's got a unit that size, it means he is incredibly weak elsewhere in the field.

You can:

(a) Ignore his hammer unit, attempt to outmanoeuvre it (15 knights is, well, almost unmanoeuvrable) and slaughter the rest of his army piecemeal. Difficult when you path of approach is being governed by three cannons, but doable.

(b) Trap his unit. March a unit of gnoblars or naked Bulls right up in front of them (like, an inch), so they can't really move, while placing a unit of IGs and a unit of gnoblars to either side. He will either charge you, in which case you flee the hell out of there. You may get run down, but you will be waiting to hit him in both flanks with your Ironguts (S6 to carve through their 1+ AS) and a unit of gnoblars (+3 rank bonus). This should see you strolling into combat with a healthy +4 static CR (taking a banner will ensure the nullification of his own). Not too shabby for the gutted ones. Statistically, your Ironguts will put ~3 unsaved wounds on the knights, meaning they won't get to swing back (perhaps with one, doing an average of much less than 1 wound). Your gnobs will put max 1 wound on, and will probably lose 2 in return, but you are still 6 ahead. See that 800 point unit fail its Break test against Ld 3 will make you all warm and fuzzy inside.
If he decides not to charge you, he is going to be stuck in basically the same position when it gets to your turn, and you can charge him with all three units (note - depending on what he has in his front line - characters and such-, it may be a really silly idea to charge him in the front - you don't want to give his hard-hitting characters too much of a change to swing at you and add to his CR).

Playing Empire is all about the movement phase. If you can nullify his ability to call the shots, the battle is half won. Empire troops are lousy. Even their knights are lousy. Empire relies on static CR to bring the day home. If you can limit his ability to claim ANY static CR, the other half of the battle is won.
This may seem weird, but a lot of this will rely on forcing him to make the first move. Forgo the bull charge in favour of the best possible position. Baiting and fleeing is your friend.

Ogre Tyrants are some of the baddest fighters in the Warhammer world. Empire characters aren't. No Empire player is going to let you slap his general down with a Tenderiser, so don't bother. Skimp totally on characters. Against Empire, an extra unit of three bulls is going to do you more good than full warrior kit for your Tyrant.

A charge from three ironguts can trim 10+ hullpoints off of a steamtank, that is enough to cripple it for the game.

Well, I think that clears up that six freakin page waste of time...

BTW, I am going to use a Tyrant with a tenderiser but I have a question. My Tyrant gets five attacks but the Big T is a twohanded weapon. Does a tyrant get five attacks with it, making it possible to inflict 15 wounds?!


But basically, the core of the units against Empire should be:

Hunter (Longstrider) w/ Kitties
Gorgers
Trappers
Yhetees

If more Knight Heavy than Artillery: Scarplauncher but take out their cannons as fast possible so they dont nuke it first

A charge from three ironguts can trim 10+ hullpoints off of a steamtank, that is enough to cripple it for the game.

Well, I think that clears up that six freakin page waste of time...

BTW, I am going to use a Tyrant with a tenderiser but I have a question. My Tyrant gets five attacks but the Big T is a twohanded weapon. Does a tyrant get five attacks with it, making it possible to inflict 15 wounds?!

yup. All 5 Atatcks are with the tenderizer. It'sd unlikely you'll get 15 wounds but it is entirely possible!

thanks
Corai

The average wounds would be ten, although that means that you have to hit with all the attacks. The worst thing to have happen is Von Horstmans Speculum but I dont know if it is still in the book. I will be playing my first game against the new Empire today. I am not looking forward to facing the flaggelants. They seem to have been boosted.

Yup its in the new book and is even better! Because it now also swaps WS.

Can someone tell me what MSU is.  Sorry I'm new here and haven't heard of it before.

MSU = multiple small units

basically the tactic is about fielding as many minimum size units as possible and going for flee/bait set-ups and combination charges (front and flank).

the flagellents are cool - but their toughness is now 3 too.

Thanks Wildcard.

Anyone ever faced a steam tank?  I don't even know what the rules for them are but I was wondering what an ogre list would do against such a unit.  I have heard they are a pretty tough nut to crack.

The rules for a steamtank are a bit blurry but if you cause impact hits then you have to take impact hits on EACH model that causes impact hits.

So a unit of 4 bulls with its 4 str 4 hits will first have to take 4D6 S6 impact hits. I dont like the odds myself. Now a gTyrant with the siege breaker will be doing 5D6 worth of auto hits on a steam tank. As a single ogre he doesnt cause impact hits so therefore doesnt get any back. You should be able to FUBAR a steamtank in one turn. I mean the odds are 15 - 30wounds and I like those odds.

Has anybody tried this because I'd be keen to know how it turned out.  Definately don't send basic ogres up against as you won't do enough damage and probably just crushed if he decides to grind.  I played against a steam tank last night with my ogres for the first time and didn't make a dent in it.  So I'm really interested in a way to deal to it. Combined with a couple of great cannons and volleygun they are a real pain.

@numbknuts: walk away.
If someone has 2 cannons a volleygun and a steamtank, they don't want to play a game, but want to roll dice.
At the end, you'll be packing anyway.

The rules for a steamtank are a bit blurry but if you cause impact hits then you have to take impact hits on EACH model that causes impact hits.

This rule is also blurry what you are saying, because now you actually say, that if you don't cause impact hits, the steamtank can't harm you

youc an't upgrade/change the weaponary on steam tanks nowerdays - they come with 1 main cannon (forward facing) and a steam gun (360 degree arc).  both of which can fire in combat!  When not in combat the engineer inside can shoot his repeater handgun.

I've not had the pleasure yet - most of the times I've faced empire I've been up against gunlines - but a lone character with a tenderiser or seigebreaker shouldn't have a problem with one.

The steamtank:
charge it from within 6" because anyone if you cause impact hits, you'll get impact hits back (and those, you don't want)

A bruiser with greatweapon or magical high strength weapon is good enough to stop the steamtank or let it get wounds every turn it does anything.

You'll probably have to sacrifice a unit, though atenderizer might do the trick in one go, but you are very lucky then
siegebreaker would be nice too because you don't need to roll for to hit.

you don't need to roll to hit anyway - everyone automatically hits a steamtank nowerdays, no matter what they're using

you just have to get past the T6, W10, 1+ armour save.

remember, charging it with a pair of leadbelchers or a lone character won't cause impact hits anyway as you need 3 ogres to bull charge - making these a good choice to deal with the rustbucket.

remember, charging it with a pair of leadbelchers or a lone character won't cause impact hits anyway as you need 3 ogres to bull charge - making these a good choice to deal with the rustbucket.

What? What do you mean, two wont cause impact hits?

Ogres need to be units of 3+ to cause impact hits.

Anyway, I think the steam tank is one thing ogres are reasonably well equipped to deal with.

Anyone played against the outriders? I don't like the looks of their stand and shoot reaction, not even a little bit.

I apparently overlooked that little stipend to the rule. Thanks for the clarification.

Those outriders are really nasty looking; 21 points for fast cavalry that has a move or fire 3x handgun.

at least it is move-OR-fire - that's a small benefit, but a welcome one for us.  I guess I'll be putting yhetees near them - in soft cover for the extra -1 to hit but peeking out, and keeping my fingers crossed.

I've played against a unit of 8 outriders. They were annoying, deployed far back and behind a pond. Once I got close enough to threaten, the little buggers just move rather quickly as fast cav to a different position and do it again or are in position to flank charge. A much better unit than I thought.

ok, well having only fought empire at 500pts this wont be too indepth... i was using the wildcard pattern list....

i've found that empire can be a pain, as it's the only list i've played against that's given me a lot of trouble, to the point i cant beat it.

the list is

hero (captain?) on foot
1+ save sword of might

10 handgunners

20 spearmen

10 swordsmen detachment

5 knights (str 4(5) GW)


quite a nice list... with toothcracker i can take down the knights, thats no problem, what i've found destroys me in this list is the flank charge from the detachment after my ogres his his main unit (or vice versa), it makes combat res very hard to come by... well, enough to win at least... not sure if charging both units at once would work, not sure on the exact rules...

anyone else got any ideas on how to beat this?  i know it's a small game, but it's a problem that i think might comeup in bigger games too...

apart from that, dealing with heavy armour? knights etc? any good ideas?

Well, I think that clears up that six freakin page waste of time...

BTW, I am going to use a Tyrant with a tenderiser but I have a question. My Tyrant gets five attacks but the Big T is a twohanded weapon. Does a tyrant get five attacks with it, making it possible to inflict 15 wounds?!


But basically, the core of the units against Empire should be:

Hunter (Longstrider) w/ Kitties
Gorgers
Trappers
Yhetees

If more Knight Heavy than Artillery: Scarplauncher but take out their cannons as fast possible so they dont nuke it first

yup. All 5 Atatcks are with the tenderizer. It'sd unlikely you'll get 15 wounds but it is entirely possible!

thanks
Corai

Yup its in the new book and is even better! Because it now also swaps WS.

Can someone tell me what MSU is.  Sorry I'm new here and haven't heard of it before.

MSU = multiple small units

basically the tactic is about fielding as many minimum size units as possible and going for flee/bait set-ups and combination charges (front and flank).

the flagellents are cool - but their toughness is now 3 too.

Thanks Wildcard.

Has anybody tried this because I'd be keen to know how it turned out.  Definately don't send basic ogres up against as you won't do enough damage and probably just crushed if he decides to grind.  I played against a steam tank last night with my ogres for the first time and didn't make a dent in it.  So I'm really interested in a way to deal to it. Combined with a couple of great cannons and volleygun they are a real pain.

@numbknuts: walk away.
If someone has 2 cannons a volleygun and a steamtank, they don't want to play a game, but want to roll dice.
At the end, you'll be packing anyway.

This rule is also blurry what you are saying, because now you actually say, that if you don't cause impact hits, the steamtank can't harm you

youc an't upgrade/change the weaponary on steam tanks nowerdays - they come with 1 main cannon (forward facing) and a steam gun (360 degree arc).  both of which can fire in combat!  When not in combat the engineer inside can shoot his repeater handgun.

I've not had the pleasure yet - most of the times I've faced empire I've been up against gunlines - but a lone character with a tenderiser or seigebreaker shouldn't have a problem with one.

The steamtank:
charge it from within 6" because anyone if you cause impact hits, you'll get impact hits back (and those, you don't want)

A bruiser with greatweapon or magical high strength weapon is good enough to stop the steamtank or let it get wounds every turn it does anything.

You'll probably have to sacrifice a unit, though atenderizer might do the trick in one go, but you are very lucky then
siegebreaker would be nice too because you don't need to roll for to hit.

you don't need to roll to hit anyway - everyone automatically hits a steamtank nowerdays, no matter what they're using

you just have to get past the T6, W10, 1+ armour save.

remember, charging it with a pair of leadbelchers or a lone character won't cause impact hits anyway as you need 3 ogres to bull charge - making these a good choice to deal with the rustbucket.

What? What do you mean, two wont cause impact hits?

Ogres need to be units of 3+ to cause impact hits.

Anyway, I think the steam tank is one thing ogres are reasonably well equipped to deal with.

Anyone played against the outriders? I don't like the looks of their stand and shoot reaction, not even a little bit.

I apparently overlooked that little stipend to the rule. Thanks for the clarification.

Those outriders are really nasty looking; 21 points for fast cavalry that has a move or fire 3x handgun.

at least it is move-OR-fire - that's a small benefit, but a welcome one for us.  I guess I'll be putting yhetees near them - in soft cover for the extra -1 to hit but peeking out, and keeping my fingers crossed.

I've played against a unit of 8 outriders. They were annoying, deployed far back and behind a pond. Once I got close enough to threaten, the little buggers just move rather quickly as fast cav to a different position and do it again or are in position to flank charge. A much better unit than I thought.

Charge the detachments. The main unit doesn't get to flank charge you if you charge the detachments, and since the detachments are always small, and usually not very combat worthy you can easily charge, defeat and break them. Then you'll have a unit behind his lines, and his new nifty special rule does nothing for him.

under the new rules, the detachments can charge you if you charge the main, or vice versa... so there's no picking off the detachments anymore

under the new rules, the detachments can charge you if you charge the main, or vice versa... so there's no picking off the detachments anymore

Sorry,but wrong. "parent units" do NOT have the detachments special rules like counter-charge,etc.
If the parent unit fails its charge (due tio fear,etc.) the detachment can NOT charge/move/shoot that turn either.(p39)
So if you charge the parent unit,the detachment must still make a fear test to counter-charge you.
I got the New Empire book.

i know the parent unit has to take fear checks, i know the detachment does... i meant that if you charge the detachment the parent unit can counter charge, assuming all fear checks are passed (i am only going on what i was told by the guy i was playing against)

Well then ask him to read the rules again.
Detachments can counter charge in the turn the parent is charged.
You can't do it vice versa.

Then your opponent has been cheating reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly badly dude. What is your list? Maybe it will be easier to help then.

Cheers,
Grog.

no no no it's all cool, we sat and down and read the rules again... you guys were right, but it wasnt him cheating, in thw white dwarf it said you can do it both ways, so he assumed that it was in the rules

he's now maybe changing to high elves... lol

either way, my list was the basic Wildcard pattern list, although i'm starting to become against the use of gnoblars...

no no no it's all cool, we sat and down and read the rules again... you guys were right, but it wasnt him cheating, in thw white dwarf it said you can do it both ways, so he assumed that it was in the rules

he's now maybe changing to high elves... lol

either way, my list was the basic Wildcard pattern list, although i'm starting to become against the use of gnoblars...

Never trust anything thats in WD. Its apalling...

haha, the other funny thing is the preview pack that the store's got sent ALSO had this in it it was supposed to be a selling point of the army

GW's full of screwups

As for Empire, I would warn people to beware of outriders.  They can lay down a tremendous amount of shooting damage and with the str4 armor piercing they will be taking out ogres left and right.  I'd put them perhaps the highest on my priority list vs Empire.

try fighting this:

warrior priest
armor of meteoric iron
great wepon
119

19 swordsmen           detachment:5 hadgunners
musican                   detachment:5 halberdier
standard bearier
186

great cannon
100

5 pistoliers
95


Thats my border patrol list who has a 75% score ratio.And here is the deployment

s:swordsmen
d:detachent
c:cannon
p:pistoliers



ddddd   sssss                     ppppp
        c sssss  ddddd
           sssss
           sssss
           sssss

looks like a solid list - what beat you?

A VC WITH 6 POWER DICE IN A 500 GAME

Well, there are 5 extra sowrdsmen...maybe that's why you couldn't beat 6 PD.

But seriously, the steam tank is evil! It hits like a ton of bricks, then like an asteroid the size of Asia! Sadly, there nothing you can do to stop it but survive.

I'd say a steamtank can be baitand flee'ed as well as any other unit (unless I'm missing something key in it's rules). All you need is to get a tyrant with a tenderizer i nthere and you'll reduce it to rubble as you hit automatically and wound pretty easily. But I'd wager the two ways to do this are outmaneuver (bait and flee etc) the tank until you get the charge or put the Tyrant in a big unit of ogres and hope when he chagres it the big man is left standing

Thanks
Corai

I just played Empire yesterday in a 1000-point war. I got massacred horribly, partly due to the worst rolling I have ever done.  Taking nothing away from my opponent, it wasn't only my rolling that lost me the game. But as I rolled poorly in combat against the high CR Empire troops, I realized how much Ogres can rely on dice rolling to give them a chance (especially against troops with a static +5/6), since their combt res is pretty much based on number of wounds alone. Is this realization a sad truth against an army like Empire, or are there ways to combat this?

Reading through this thread and the archived thread, doesn't really shed any light on this. The only thing I can think of to win a combat like that is getting either gnoblars (whic in my experience are too slow to get on an opponent's flank) or another Ogre unit on their flank to deny ranks and have a flank. You have to try to take them on 2-on-1, break them, and move on to the next combat (ideally). It's not an easy thing to do.

Along these lines, I just want to know how other Ogres attempt to combat this problem Ogres have against Empire and what works for them. Thanks,

sardO

agaisnt any high CR unit ogres have to go 2 on 1. This is just good advice for any opponent really. Relying on a single unit to break on the charge without somethng to either inflict more wounds or negate their ranks is far too dependent on luck

Thanks
Corai

agaisnt any high CR unit ogres have to go 2 on 1. This is just good advice for any opponent really. Relying on a single unit to break on the charge without somethng to either inflict more wounds or negate their ranks is far too dependent on luck

Thanks
Corai

I agree with Corai on this one you really have to go 2 on one against high CR armies, and especialy against empire with their detachments supporting charges. I guess a tenderiser tyrant that get´s to challenge might swing CR in your favor but that´s sort of a one trick thing so not really a solution.

cheers

With the detachments, it is hard to get an Ogre unit on the flank, especially if they play defensive (both main infantry parent units deployed very close to each other, and the other flank denied by the detachment). So do you just charge two units of Ogres on their front and maximize the amount of Ogres you can get in, or is their a better way? When you can't get on their flank it's still very difficult to beat their static CR. It's not like they don't have any other threats (you still have to worry about knights coming over to help). Or perhaps do you to try to get rid of the knights first?

well I tend to save some dice for a bonecruncher spell. Agaisnt empire knights I make sure to attempt trollguts towards the end of the magic phase, as most players either know if it,, or hear it's results and pin it as our best spell. If I can get them to pour some dice or spells into stopping it then I ca get bonecruncher off once or twice. and with only toughness 3 and great armour the bonecruncher can really make short work of them.

With detachments, If there's no way to get an ogre unit on the flank (e.g. detachment is so close to parent unit you would have to charge detachment instead) the charge the detachment in the flank. A unit of ogres will rip right through 10 free company, and if you break them or wipe them out, just fopllow up into the flank of the parent unit. as long as you do the flank chrage first you can ensure you still get both ogres to fight agaisnt the high CR unit.

Thanks
Corai

With detachments, If there's no way to get an ogre unit on the flank (e.g. detachment is so close to parent unit you would have to charge detachment instead) the charge the detachment in the flank. A unit of ogres will rip right through 10 free company, and if you break them or wipe them out, just fopllow up into the flank of the parent unit. as long as you do the flank chrage first you can ensure you still get both ogres to fight agaisnt the high CR unit.

Thanks
Corai

Sounds excellent, but I think it's easier said then done. Let me show you roughly how he deployed:
k-knights (5 knights)
o-outriders (5)
d-detachment (10 halberdiers in each unit)
s-swordsmen (23 in each parent unit --each one had a captain -one being a BSB, other being his general)
-he also took a cannon (not relevant in this discusion)

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd 

So, following your advice, it sounds like it would work great, but how can I get on his detachments flank with Fast Cav Outriders and Knights right there? Bonecrucher can only do so much... I can't just ignore his cavalry...

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd

in the above example you obviously want to be coming in front the right flank. A unit of bulls, guts or yhetees are all great for this, but yhetees may prove espescailly useful as they can negotiate the terrain often found along the flanks of boards. Realistically, the five knights should have a hard time surving two bonecruncher spells, but the outriders also pose a problem (as do the knights who could just as easily survive). I'd throw a cheap unit of gnoblars in their way to act as both a screen for the outriders guns and a roadblock. But then I usua;lly advance slower than regular ogre movemtn to facilitate staggerin units and omcbined charges so gnoblars can ususally keep up. A unit of sacrifical bulls placed either in the way of the knights path to your guts or right in fron of them to to weather the storm for a round, or bait and flee away should solve your problems

As, I understand, the outriders havbe some pretty nasty ranged power, you would probabley want both a block of fighters and some bulls in there to make sure you still have your bait/roadblock in place. Trappers can slo take up a lrage amount of board

Thanks
Corai

How exactly does that allow me to charge the detachment's flank as you explained earlier?  The way you explained it, I would have 2 units of IG's, 2 Leadbelchers and a unit of Bulls (w/ Bruiser) heading towards his parent units (other Bulls being used to tie up knights). And I don't run a Butcher. Since you seem to be assuming a Butcher is in my army, if I put one in that takes out a unit of IG's. Now I only have a unit of IG's (w/ Butcher), 2 Leadbelchers, and a unit of Bulls (w/ Bruiser) heading for his parent units. Now it's back to the main problem again. It's (basically -- 2 Leadblechers aren't going to do much in combat) 1-on-1 again.  This isn't even factoring in the Cannon and Outriders weaking my units...

well first of all, you didn't tell me what was in your list, you asked how I would achieve the flanking maneuver I suggested. I thought I had explained how I would counter the threat of the knights (obviously not ) so I'll try and be clearer. I am going to endeavour to continue to give general advice pertainign to this situation rather than specific advice regarding your army build as it is not one /i would field myself so am not qualified to comment:

The battle line looks like this.
kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss dddd

As I understand it, you are having trouble with the two large blocks of swordsmen who have better saves than the average trooper (do they still have better Ws?) and will have, presumably a static combat res of at least 4 (3 ranks + standard). As already established, 1 hammer unit of ogres (I favour ironguts and don't really consider bulls, even fully tooled up to be a hammer unit). To outweigh this you need to endeavour to get a 2-on-1 unit ratio with the high static combat res swordsmen. To do this safely you will need 3 units. a Hammer unit (H) a sacrifical unit (S) and a flanking Unit (F). I personally favour Iron Guts for hammers, naked bulls or gnoblars for sacrifical and either naked (or tooled to your tastes) bulls or, better yet, yhetees as flankers.

You want to position these units to get a charge off allowing the following finishing positions

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss ddddF
                                                     HHH                     
                                          SSS                               

In this set up, your hammer unit is protected from a flank charge from the other block of spearmen by the sacrifical unit. The desired outcome (obviosuly it's always up to the whim of the dice gods! ) is that the yhetees will fight first (your turn so you choose the combat order) and either slaughter (impossible without a greyback and the luck of the Irish) or kill even a few of the militia. If you only manage to kill 2, they are denied any attacks back and will loose combat, being beaten by a fear casuing enemy which outnumbers them. It's unlikely they'll pass their insanse courage test and break.(unless detachments have some stubborn rule I am unaware of, in which case you'll just have to kill them all!) The flee will take them into the unit s and H's cmobat, destroying them. Meanwhile, your unit F can pursue (or overrun) the relatively small distance into combat s and H. If everything goes according to plan, the line should now look like this:

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss F
                                                     HHH        
                                          SSS                  

Suddenly you've got 2 units of ogres in combat (so after fighting are now likely to get the outnumber bonus) you've denied them any rank bonus and get a flank bonus. If you have your own standard you should now be ahead on static combat res, and ogres do do a good job of killing thinlings.

There are of course variations on this. If you have no other uits to deal with unit s thenthey will become a problem. You can't flank them in the same way so would need a differant approach needing at least 2 units. You cannot get to the flanks of the detachment d becasue of the knghts and outriders, so instead of cancelling their ranks, you need to aim for outright slaughter to net you combat res. Try for something like this:

kkkkk     ooooo     ddddd  ssssssss  ssssssss ddddF
                               FFF HHH         HHH                
                   SSS                                                       

In the above example, the sacrifical unit is again protecting the left flank form a countercharge from the outriders and knights. the unit H is in combat with the big combat res unit and unit F is in combat with both units. the flankers are typically less 'hitty' than your hammers units so they can deal with killing some militia for easy combat res. This isn't as sure thing (if anything really is) than the previous maneavour and relies a lot more on dice and you racking up kils, but there is little alternative I can see within the limits of my own tactical knowledge and experience.

This is all somewhat acadmeic as you will still have to ctach and kill the knights at some point. Bonecruncher is probably our best way of doing this, but I would run a sacrifical unit up as a bait and flee and prepare a countercharge with another hammer unit. when Empuire knights don't get the charge they aren't that good, and even full plate armour will only get them a 5+ save against the coutner charge of the ironguts.

This isn't even factoring in the Cannon and Outriders weaking my units...

That's what units like trappers, or even the bangstick are there for. I know not everyone fields butchers at this points level but I do personally. either way, trappes can mae a nusiance of themselves, hunt warmahcine crew and outriders, or successful screenining of your units will lesson the effect of the outriders and cannons

I hope this has been a bit clearer and more useful, I think this is what you were asking

Thanks
Corai

EDIT NOTE: the units F in all above examples should be 3 wide, but the formatting was cuasing all sorts of troubles and was more confusing than anything else. If unclear, the intention is that F is as wide as any other ogre uinit (in these examples therefor FFF) but arranged vertically rather than horizontally

Yes, this helps me a lot. The only problem is (I failed to mention) that the detachment on the right flank was right on the board edge, which means that flank is not an option to get to. I'm sure that changes things a lot. Although your second variation may work though. I'll try it next time I play Empire. 

Better than two smaller blocks of ogres or IGs, to be sure.  That extra rank of attacks is absolutely crucial to keeping up with the damage output of a unit of a horde of halberdiers, especially if they have hatred from a priest or get off unbreakable.  Deploying in horde allows you better coverage from runemaw, which is good for keeping pesky battlemage spells off your unit so they can do what they do best.  My only thought is that a horde can easily get pegged by a steamtank and held up almost indefinitely, so appropriate chaff needs to be in place to speedbump stanks until you're ready to handle them (then again, this applies to every army you face if you've gone w/ horde formation, so this isnt anything new or groundbreaking).

A horde of Halberdiers only has 30 attacks at Str4.

15 attacks hit, 7.5 wounds(round up to and roughly 6 wounds are caused after 6+/6+ saves. So the Halberdiers kill 2 ogres.

18 Ogres attack back(I assume you had at least 20 models or 2 characters to give you some ablative wounds)

54 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds and no saves. 6 Stomps, 4 wounds and no saves

40 halberdiers are down to 18 and not steadfast. Even 50 Halberdiers wouldn't have been steadfast(28 models left and both units have 3 ranks)

This doesn't even include impact hits or characters.

THE way to deal with horde infantry is flame templates. Seriously!! You can march your firebelly 12 inches ahead and kill 20-30 models before you engage in combat. Thats pretty damn effective - much more so than puny scraplauncher shots.

Are you using Apocalypse Flame Templates with S6 hits or what ? 

If you are up against 50 halberdiers and move your firebelly to the flank of them it is quite easy to get 30-40 models covered! All you need to do from there is roll alot of 3+.

30-40....are you taking the ****? Seriously what size template are you using? The template is gonna get about 25 at best...

besides...if you're in a position to flank a unit fo 50 halberdiers, then flame breathing them is the icing on the cake - they're pretty screwed either way!

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85880

30 hits at most (you have to be 1" away), meaning ~20 dead.

Yes, I think I hit something like 30 models. Anyway I rolled about 25 wounds... alot of 3+s!

But I have had success with flaming infantry hordes. Killing 15+ models really makes your life so much easier. I am doing the same thing to men-at-arms.

I faced Empire a couple of times now and, while I defeated them every time, I 'm wondering if there's a couple of nasty tricks to play upon a Steamtank to cripple it enogugh before it gets stuck in combat with your main unit.

The obvious ones:
- Ironblaster: Put a decent dent in it once and the thing is a lot less effective.
- Gnoblar steadfast horde dropped right in front of it, preferably with a Trapper upgrade (1 in 6 chance to deal d6 wounds...)

Other ideas:
- I tried the Bonecrusher Spell once, but rolled too few hits to damage it (Most of our lads wound it only on 6s, but this little beauty denies the beast an armoursave).
- Any more?

Bonecruncher and the Iblaster really are the only reliable ways to deal with a Stank.

The good news is that you don't need to kill it to render it fairly useless. Once its down 4ish wounds it becomes very risky to generate enough Steam Points to do something useful.

of course this is why Empire often runs Life, so they can heal the Stank.

Thanks I figured as much, after having faced it every time I fought against Empire. However, even a badly damaged stank is one huge speedbump once it is in melee. Regardin' the lore of life: As always, that means kill the mage first!

___________

One more thing that irks me far more than the 'stank is Van Horstmann's Speculum, but I found it easy to counter to with disposable unit champions or letting a Butcher do the dueling. However, any model geared to fight the VHS-carrier should be equipped with a greatweapon in order to beat our own swapped thoughness scores.

The Speculum is a problematic item, fortunantly I can almost garuntee it will either go away or become a useless 100 point magic item in the new Empire book which will come out soon.

the fact its so damn cheap is the main problem with it. the character can be quite well kitted out and still have it.

Sometimes the best thing to do is refuse the challange and beat the guy to death with rank and file.

That and the now undercosted Armour of Meteoric Iron in combination with the VHS and a simple greatweapon made me drop the Giantbreaker Big Name against Empire, until it gets ammended in the new book. On the other hand, a slaughtermaster wouldn't loose out that much in duel, unless using the Fencing Blades.

PS: Is there any consensus on how the Fencers Blades and the Van Horstmann's interact? All I found was a rather inconclusive debate here.

The Speculum transfers base stats. So the Wizard gets the SMs WS4 and the SM still has the Fencers Blades for WS10

Items NEVER transfer things for the Speculum.

Hello there guys!
I'm a new player here ( greetings from Poland! ).
Could you help me to make decision?
My miniatures: Tyrant, 2 Butchers, 3 Yhetee, 9 Bulls, 6 Ironguts, 8 Leadbelchers, Ironblaster, 2 ( for now ) Mournfangs, 24 Gnoblar Fighters, 1 Gorger, Bruiser BSB ( of course - there are optional models ).

And now....Thundertusk or Stonehorn against the Empire ( balanced, some shooting - crossbows, bows, Pistoliers, some CC, 2-3 cannons/throwers, some cavalry, Militia, Flagellants, 1-2 wizards )? No money for BOTH at the moment.

If Stonehorn - with Hunter on it? Buy some Sabretusks? Can they run with him mounted on Stonehorn?
Or maybe Thundertusk between 2 Leadbelchers squads?

I think Stonehorn could be better, but...

Plz help...

Definitly a Stonehorn. It will survive the artillery much better and there is very little in the Empire that can take him on in combat.

If you get Regeneration off on him then Cannons will simply bounce off him and even if he takes a couple wounds he can still devestate empire units.

Use him to support your ogres by being in the same combat. It will keep him safer while he wails on them.

Don't put the Hunter on the Stonehorn. Its not worth it unless you are just spamming Stonehorns and want to fit another in. No, he cannot join sabres as Characters that are/are mounted on monsters are forbidden from joining units.

Your ogres really don't need the boost of the Thundertusk to beat empire units in combat.

So, thanks a lot It's the same I thought but I wanted opinion of more experienced:D Beware, Empire dogs!!

But...Really NOT to put Hunter on Stonehorn's back? OK, understood - no Sabretusks WITH him as a companion. But...better movement, dealing wounds with Stonehorn, and Sabretusks still could be just a Sabretusk PACK, with no Hunter. What do you think??

Sabretusks really only should be run singley.

If there are multiple Sabretusks then they are worth more Victory points and very easy to panic. Once they have taken a panic test they are good as gone with Ld4.

Whelp, it looks like yet another know your enemy thread is coming to a close.  Old empire book, we hardly knew ye'... new empire book with lazerz and griffindor here we come!