Ogre Kingdoms Vs Skaven

Post your tips for fighting Skaven here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

Playing against a 'wall to wall' skaven army leaves you with only one option ...hope to break through his lines...turn around...wash rinse repeat...

Unfortunately 'wall to wall' (Which means Bricks of troops from one end all the way to the other) skaven is not done as much as I would like to see it on the table top and any good player will make sure you do not get to this cycle on him...

You are more likely to see 4 caster shooting st5 2d6 magic misselse at you with 18 power dice his first turn...three units of jazzaels, the super fun cannon that I can hide behind trees and still hit you with...

Do not get discouraged ogre players, as yes he will shoot the everliving fun out of you, but once you get into combat it is all over...everything runs...it really is that simple...

Vs a 'wall to wall' army...there really is nothing much you can do...

A few skaven tips.

1.  Skaven tend to be very vulnerable to magic.  Your most powerful spell against them will be the braingobbler spell (panic checks).  Yes, their blocks of troops do have good leadership, but their support units don't.  Jezzails, night runners, gutter runners, globadiers, weapons teams, all excellent choices.

2. Characters are a big part of this army.  A fully ranked unit of clanrats is only leadership 8, with a character 9 or 10.  Suicide units that would normally flee are good to use to stay and try to assassinate the character, which shouldn't be too hard. 

I'll try to post more later.

Make sure to have units with at least 4 ogres next to eachother. This way you'll get the most impact hits.
Then make sure to bring your aditional handweapons (or ironfists). The aditional attack almost equals another dead skaven. After the charge, pray that you score enough points and break trough the line of the skaven army.

Another advise is flanking ! When you get in combat with skaven you automatically have 4 points in the combat resolution against you, 1 for outnumber, and 3 for the ranks. Charge them in the flank, and they only have 1 point left, which is nullified by the points you get for charging in the flank. Now you just need to kill 4-5 skaven (which can't be that hard) and they won't be able to strike back. You win the combat resolution, you cause fear, they don't. "Bye, Bye skaven"

i find gnoblars can go hand to hand with skaven, and often win. It all counts on you having extra ranks. It also helps to flank or throw stuff at 'em.
i saw my unit of ironguts get killed by nightrunners, only to have the gnoblars avenge them

You still have to outnumber the skaven to make them autobreak and since they start with 25-30 models you won't autobreak them early on.

I agree that gnoblars are a good use against skaven, but I'd only use them against the skaven slaves, otherwise they are indeed outmatched since they have a lower WS and they cannot get a standard.

More things to watch out for vs Skaven

They have a few multiwound things in their armory.
1.  Assassins with Warpstone stars which are str5 and do d3 wounds
2.  Character with the Weeping Blade, +1 str, d3 wounds
3.  Warp Lightning cannon, variable str, d6 wounds
4.  Fell blade, str10, d6 wounds

Now, you won't see the fell blade very often, its expensive and dangerous, but the other 3 are much more common.

there are several things a skaven army is capable of

ranks and high damage ratling guns are a given warpfire throwers will wound on 3 and have d3 wounds and should also be avoided,

warp lightning as earlier stated but its stregnth is random so is questionable use and it has to flee when charged and dont expect trees to cover you it see's through them

 jezzails can ruin your day if your not careful with their high stregnth hits however as powerful as they are they are expensive and only bs3

plague monks you will want to avoid as much as possible with additional hand weapons and frenzy they get 3 attacks each in a rank of 5 thats 15 attacks comming at you this is damageing against all fatal against most,

plague censer bearers are another one to avoid they cause toughness tests or take a wound as well as allready being flail frenzy

what you have to remember is with exception of plague monks the killing and the staying in skaven are at each polar, either the rank and file cant kill for crap and the untis that can kill are either skirmish or single model and therefore wotn last against anything substancial

skaven also have large numbers when you play as a msu theres two effective tricks for this, either funnel them or spearhead

funnel = cause them to get stuck between terrain and other things negating their high numbers allowing you to pick them off at your own pace while all he can do is queue up his guys to die

spearhead= focus everything you have into a certain area(normally a flank) this again causes you to only have to fight 30% of his army with your full army giving you the advantage by the time the rest of his untis come to reinforce that will be a sizeable chunk gone,

leadbelcher targets: screaming bell, stormvermin, plague monks, untis with characters in.

one thing you should also avoid are rat ogres there stronger than you but cost more points but come with a packmaster for extra attacks

grey seer's and assasins should be your character targets. grey seer is the level 4 caster of the skaven and at best will only have a 5+ armor save 4+ ward save (possibly 3 vs magic and shooting) and regeneration   but to get these will cost a sizable ammount of points since grey seers cost 200+ points as standard anyway ( mabey a extra 200 if their on a screaming bell)

assasins are lord stregnth heros with scout skirmish hidden commonly either with warpstone stars or weeping blades however it has 2 wounds and never armor if the assasin has a ward save then it wont have a effective weapon besides its additional poisoned hand weapons and costs more points than their warlord so killing it will give you a nice point boost

spells to avoid:
warp lightening- warlock engineers and grey seers and another bound spell in storm daemon gives another warp l;ightening to warlock engineers.  if he has no grey seer this will be their only spell

skitterleap: this spell will ruin your day if left unchecked it allows the skaven player to put a character anywhere on the board this includes those nasty assasins with multi wounds. (if SoC list then they can even be skitterleaped into combat and allmost allways it will be a master assasin with a fellblade) save at least 1-2 dispel dice if your going against a grey seer/eshin list chances are it can save you the game

plague: gorks warpath but with toughness tests enough said


if your able to play on skavens inept weaknesses of needing ranks to keep leadership and the diffrences between killer and staying units and keep those numbers tame it will be a  cakewalk


and one of the most improtant things

skaven can shoot into their combats the only way to be safe from their ranged weapons is to either kill them or make sure they cant see you

a favored tactic is to flee when charged remember they lose their leadership bonus through ranks when they do this so itll only relly do with cheap expendable slaves that dont cause tests for the rest of their army ignore these as much as possible its the clanrats your after

a sneaky act a skaven player will do is use death frenzy on his slaves.
They get a bunch of attacks, you actually don't want as an opponent.
They fear nothing anymore.
And they won't run, so they are just in the way.
And that for about 60 points and a spell

Here is an old Skaven Article I wrote a few years ago for a writing contest:


There has been lots of talk recently about the Skaven army being overpowered and in need of a revision.  The purpose of this article is to take a more specific, detailed inside look at one phase of the game and further examine and equip the reader to make a their own decision to whether these claims are applicable.  The phase is: The Magic Phase *lightning bolts and women screaming*.

Let’s first take a look at the three typical skaven magic users. 

First up is the Grey Seer, the chittering master spell caster of the Skaven under-empire.  He is favored by The Great Horned Rat *reverent pause* and granted the privilege to manipulate the winds of magic to form unique skaven spells.  Due to the unimaginable competition to become a Grey Seer, they are seen in battle in only one variety, level 4.  Twisted and bent on the will of The Great Horned Rat *reverent pause*, they carry with them 4 warpstone chunks.  These chunks can be consumed by the spell caster to grant them an additional power die when casting a spell, but with some drawbacks.  (They cannot exceed the number of power die they can throw, like you can with a power stone)  If the warpstone power die comes up as a 1, they take a wound with no armor saves (ward and regeneration apply).  A player can purchase additional warpstone tokens, but it will cost them a measly 10 points, therefore equating to the Grey Seer coming with 40 points worth of free magical items. 

One consideration all Skaven generals have to make is the fact that Grey Seers only have a leadership of 6, meaning your army will most likely have a leadership of 9 instead of the 10 that a Warlord can give you.  It’s a tough choice; I don’t know how we deal with it. *chitter*

The next caster to be examined is the Warlock Engineer.  Warlock engineers are initially purchased as a 0.5 caster.  These little buggars are the heads of the skyre machinery.  They are in charge of keeping them in working condition and in tip-top shape.  So when your warplightning cannon or ratling guns misfire they are the ones to blame.  Putting that aside though, this tech-caster has the option to buy many non-magical upgrades for his personage.  Each upgrade further enhances the Warlock Engineer’s abilities.  The three items are: warp-blades, supercharged warp-power accumulator, and an upgraded warp energy condenser.  The blades allow the warlock engineer to cast the warp lightning spell, the accumulator generates an additional power die for the casting pool, and the condenser allows him the ability to cast with 3 power dice.  The combination of these three items equates to a 1.5 level caster, which for all intents and purposes is a level 2 caster.  At 85 points this isn’t all that expensive.  Furthermore, the warp-blades give the Warlock Engineer the ability to cast the warplightning spell at either a 5+ (1d6) or a 9+ (2d6) power level.  All Warlock Engineers come with a single warpstone token.

Lastly, the third and most rare form of caster is the Plague Priest given the magical item Liber Bubonicus.  This magical item turns the Plague Priest hero into a level 1 caster that only knows the spell pestilence breath.  Since he is not a natural spell caster he does not come with a warpstone token.

Now from these 3 choices you can glean a few things right off the bat.  One argument could be made that the skaven get screwed with character choices for their magic.  They can only take a level 4 caster, quite an investment and their supporting casters can only ever know 1 spell that can only be cast once AND can kill the caster.  Therefore, if you want to use the popular and powerful skaven magic list you must take a Grey Seer.  Another thing to note is that Skaven only score an irresistible force when the total of their casting roll is a 13, the sacred number of The Great Horned Rat *reverent pause*.  Therefore, if you throw just 2 dice to cast a spell, you have 0 chance of an irresistible force.

In rebuttal to that, the Grey Seer is cheap.  He is 235 points, but that includes 40 points of magical items.  Furthermore, the option not to have a level 3 caster is not a big deal.  Level 3 casters are rarely seen in the Warhammer world to begin with, so the option not to have one is not missed.  Furthermore, the spell the Warlock Engineer receives is one of the most devastating spells in the game and the fact that the skaven who are unpredictable and unreliable can choose to take a caster where they know for a fact what they will be getting doesn’t seem to make much sense.  As a character the techno magic is unique and fun, but in the spirit of the skaven army it is probably too reliable.  Also, the majority of the skaven spells have the best chance at being cast using 3-4 dice, which is right in the range where the skaven irresistible force score of 13 is most effective.



Lets start to take a spell by spell look through the unique skaven spell list.  Grey Seers can only take this list.

Skitterleap (casting level : 3+ )  -  This spell will move any character (including the spell caster) with in 8” inches anywhere on the board.  This spell may seem like a poor default spell, but it can be worth its weight in gold.  It’s cheap and it allows you to do some of the following.

• Contest table quarters on the last round of the game
• Leave combat before that mage killer has a chance to whack you
• Move a character behind enemy lines on turn 1, preventing them from marching
• Place yourself in a tactical position for other skaven spells discussed below.

This spell is situational, but useful.

Warp Lightning (casting level 5+/9+) – The caster can choose which level he is going to cast this spell.  This spell does 1d6 (5+) or 2d6 (9+) strength 5 hits with a 24 inch range.  Let me repeat that, strength five hits.  When rolling for the number of hits, if a 1 is rolled the caster takes a wound with no armor saves.  This must be remembered for game balance, and you will loose characters to it, its especially depressing when you roll snake eyes killing the two wound engineer.

At strength 2d6 str 5 hits, this is one of the most powerful magic missile spells in the game.  Just imagine two non-scythed heavy chariots ramming you in the magic phase.  If I could choose one spell for any of my casters to know for every battle it would be this spell…fortunately I get my wish with my warlock engineers.

The beauty of this spell is if you take 2 fully tooled warlock engineers with no other casters.  I can cast this spell twice with 3 dice at power level 9 with since I generate 6 dice.  By throwing 3 dice I have given myself a 75% chance of casting the spell with an average result of an 11.  With an average of 4-5 dispel die chances are I will get one of the spells through.  Here comes 2d6 strength 5 hits,  that should make just about any opponent cringe.  Furthermore, if you recall, throwing 3 dice allows for the best possibility of rolling an irresistible force.

Lastly, the fact that skaven can cast magic missiles into combat makes this spell even more effective since you’ll never find yourself in a position where you have no targets.

Vermintide (casting level 7+) – I think the developers though this spell would be cooler than it is.  For me, it has never panned out.  When the caster casts this spell the large template is placed in front of him.  It them moves forward 4d6 inches.  Every unit it hits takes 3d6 strength 2 hits.  With the possibility of mass damage, the strength 2 usually is enough to keep the casualties down.  The fact that it can hit multiple units is very nice however.

Pestilence Breath (casting level 9+) – This spell is a short range spell.  You place the flame template anywhere on the caster and all models under the template are hit with a strength 3 attack allowing no armor save.  This spell is fantastic in combination with skitterleap. 

Death Frenzy (casting level 10+) – This spell can be cast on any of your skaven units within 24 inches, immediately stirring them into a frenzy.  If the unit is already frenzied, then they enter into a state known as death frenzy where they gain an additional attack, but every turn the unit takes d3 wounds.  This spell has 2 excellent applications.  First, it makes the unit immune to psychology, so no panic tests and no fear/terror tests.  Secondly, cast on rat ogres or clanrats with spears and you can achieve an awing amount of attacks, surely to overwhelm just about any foe.  The d3 wounds is usually not an issue with 30+ clanrats and, however frenzy is a tactical liability that should be taken into account.

Finally, the apex spell:

Plague (casting level 13 +)  - This spell is simply devastating.  Its very expensive and only has an 18 inch range, but when cast it requires every model (including characters) in the unit to take a toughness test.  If they score above their toughness, they take a wound with no armor saves allowed. If a single wound is scored there is a 1/3 chance the spell will spread to another unit of your choice. 


Tools for Magical Domination

Screaming Bell (upgrade for Grey Seer) – This nifty little upgrade has many upsides, but one major downside.  First the upsides, it provides the Grey Seer riding it two additional power dice for his disposal.  It gives the unit pushing it (Stormvermin or clanrats only) a magic resistance of two.  It has a 3+ ward save to both shooting and close combat.  It allows the Grey Seer 360 degree line of sight even when the unit is engaged in combat, and all spells can be measured from anywhere on the carriage.  When charging it causes impact hits, although just a d6 worth, and its US6 really helps beef up unit strength for outnumbering.  Finally, in the shooting phase the tolls from the bell are all pretty good, especially if you have a combat oriented skaven army.  The downside is that it is a large target and a chariot.  It is easy to hit and even easier to destroy with a single strength 7 blow…even with a 3+ ward save.  This sacred artifact should probably be brought out for special occasions and only in battles that are more than 2000 points.

Warpstone Tokens  – Extra power die, if you roll a one caster takes a wound

Eye of the Horned Rat – At the beginning o f the power phase roll a d6.  If you roll a 2-6 you gain an extra power die, if you roll a 1 you lose a power die.

Storm Daemon  -  Power level 4, this casts the warplightning spell at 1d6 strength 5 hits.  Wonderful for draining dispel dice or doing wounds before you can miscast.  This item exhausts on a roll of a one after it is used.  This is a must have item as it is cheap with a decent power level and boosts your magic phase significantly.

Warp Scroll - Power Level 5, every model in one unit within 24 inches takes a strength 3 hit.  One use only.

Warpstorm Scroll -  Power Level 5, all flying units within 24 inches take d6 strength 6 hits.  One use only.

Warpstone charm – Player may re-roll one die during the course of the game which may cancel miscasts or cause irresistible force.

You have probably noticed that almost all the quirks that the skaven have in their magic phase are for better offensive effect.  They have no items that give them more dispel dice, or take away opponents power dice.  They leave that to the timid elven magic users.  Skaven are a no-holds-barred offensively oriented magic army that can honesty go toe-to-claw with any army out there. 

The combination of cheap level 2, and level 4 magic users with warpstone tokens allows them to have enough power dice to cast as many spells as you want when you want.  Tactically when your opponent sees you have no more power dice and uses the rest of his dispel dice only to have you use 4 warpstone tokens on a plague spell is very powerful.  As well as placing 4 dice beside your power dice and counting them before you cast your final spell, allowing you to make your opponent rethink his dispel options.

I’ll leave the final decision up to you, the reader, to whether or not Skaven are over powered.  Personally, I think some things could be adjusted, but who am I to question the will of The Great Horned Rat. 

...he has a Grey Seer in a 1k game - ?? if so, call him a cheesey slimeball, pack up then go find anothe rplayer!

calling a Skaven player Cheesey is probably not going to have the impact you expect... 
than again i can imagine a few OK 1K lists that would easily make short work of any skaven list.

I have a friend who has started running a unit of about 30 stormvermin with queek headtaker and the assassin character, whats the best way to deal with this, it decemated my vampire counts, I would like some advice before I have to face it with my ogres.

That is one of the worst skaven builds I have ever heard about.  You just take it on without characters as both of those guys trash most folks in a challenge.  Mournfang would be ideal for it

If skaven are running alot of Engineers and a Plague Priest/Grey Seer the Hellheart will be good.

You only need to get a couple of the Engineers to shut down the magic phase and since their characters need to be in close you should easily get most of them.

Mournfangs are good against slaves, but you will need to neutralize their shooting before you stick the mournfangs into the slaves or ensure there are better targets. Ironblasters should take out WLCs and any nasty weapon teams ASAP.

A seer in 1k against ogre kingdoms really isn't that great.  It's not like he can dread 13th his way to a win and the seer can't take any equipment.  If I have a choice, I'd probably rather have a level 2 caster in 1000 as Skaven for a fight with Ogres.  The seer with his bunker is going to be about 40% of 1000.  Not sure what you're playing with, but a skitterleapt Grey Seer is fresh meat for leadbelchers.  And no general means an auto-loss for most Skaven.  Even if his seer survives after the leap, you can probably break some units that he's left behind, especially slaves.

Also, that Queek unit, I just wouldn't fight it head on with anything important to me until it's been whittled down (of course, a Mournfang charge will do a lot of damage to it, but if he still has 10+ models left after that with frenzy up, you're in for some pain).  Everything in it will normally go first in combat with Ogres, and death frenzied Strength 5 attacks will cut through any rank and file.  You usually want to block the death frenzy and burn his model count down as much as possible before it gets near you.  You also have the option to let death frenzy go off if you think you can play keep away from him with redirectors (and then death frenzy would be doing some work for you).

The unit costs him around 800 points if he always throws the assassin into it and takes a magic banner.  The major flaw of it is that it's such an easy target for its cost.  Queek's stormvermin still have mediocre toughness and their armor (4 or 5, dependent on if he splurged for shields which are only useful against ranged for that unit) won't really save them from high Strength damage.  You need to slow him down while the storm banner he probably took is still up.  Leadbelchers brutalize these guys once the banner's down and scraplaunchers will also be useful if you field them. 

Multi-hit direct damage magic (spells in Fire, Beasts, and Heavens) will also make quick work of this unit regardless of the storm banner and keep in mind that Queek's saves are really poor and can't be adjusted by the other player (snipers/death magic apply here).

Fulminating flame cage is probably what I'd choose as "most valuable spell" since it'll shut down the unit's movement completely (or if he moves, he'll lose half his models) wasting a precious round of storm banner protection or forcing him to stay in place while you deplete the unit.

Thanks for the advice ^_^

It is really easy to cause huge amounts of damage to skaven units with Ironblasters as the unit footprints are so big just put your shot 8" infront of the unit and you will hit lots of rnf. Also shoot at screaming bells if you hit the bell there is a good chance of damaging/destroying it and a 1/6 chance of sniping the Grey seer (i just did it today on turn 2 pretty much won me the game).

Considering shoot a cannonball at a greyseer has a 1/3rd chance of not hitting the bell at all (The way the skaven book is writen it overrides the cannon hits both rule) and he has a 4+ ward and you will still ring the bell.

Also do not waste cannon shots at 2 point slaves.  Wohoo you killed 10 slaves!...

(The way the skaven book is writen it overrides the cannon hits both rule)

It has never overriden anything and it will never do so.

Q: If a template hits a Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace being
ridden by a character, how is this resolved? (p42 & p48)
A: It is resolved as per the template rules in the Shooting at
Ridden Monsters section on page 105 in the Warhammer
rulebook.
For example: a Rock Lobber hits A Screaming Bell ridden by
a Grey Seer. The central hole is over the base. As such a D6 is
rolled to determine who takes the Strength 9 hit. A 4 is rolled
and so the Screaming Bell takes the Strength 9 hit while the
Grey Seer takes the Strength 3 hit.

The way it is writen it does negate the cannon shot but I guess GW saw it to FAQ that out.

I have a friend who has started running a unit of about 30 stormvermin with queek headtaker and the assassin character, whats the best way to deal with this, it decemated my vampire counts, I would like some advice before I have to face it with my ogres.

Queek is pretty fragile if you hit him, a Tyrant with the gold sigil sword or the sword of swift slaying should sort him out good and proper. Leading a unit of bulls for the 6+ fist ward with no other characters for the assassin to pick on should do the trick. A toughness buff (or regen if he's not got flaming attacks) will help no end. In my last game my Tyrant armed with the sword of swift slaying, greedyfist and giantbreaker beat down Queek and 20 stormvermin over a coouple of turns with only a sabretusk for support.

The assassin could prove problematic in the 2nd round of combat, however, Queek HAS to challenge, so if he reveals the assassin in the 1st round you can just pummel him with ogres, and if he pops up in the 2nd you can sacrifice the unit champion. Hopefully after a couple of rounds you should have squished enough rats for the unit to no longer be a problem.

Also do not waste cannon shots at 2 point slaves.  Wohoo you killed 10 slaves!...

Skaven will have more than just 1 big unit and not just of slaves

Most skaven I play against have slaves and monks as big units and since monks are run in horde with a tower you never really shoot them you just shoot the tower.

Stormvermin are to expensive to be decent and the only use for clannies is a bunker

How is 7 points to expensive to be good they have hvy armour and halbards with WS4 and can take a magic banner sounds pretty damn good to me a horde of 40 will only cost around 300+ banner. For that cost we get 8 Ogres with FC and IF the Stormvermin will walk all over us.

If your facing a horde of Plague monks with furnace shooting the furnace is a good idea it has no ward and once it is destroyed the unit is a lot easier to deal with.

The only use for stormvermin is to carry storm banner and even then they become a small unit just for that.  If you give me the option of 3 slaves or one storm vermin I will take 3 slaves every time. 

But this is a thread about ogres and not about Skaven and their stupidly good units

True but a good Skaven player will have Stormvermin and in large blocks pushing a bell so it is important to talk about how amazingly good they are. An unbreakable unit with heavy armour and better WS than our units hitting at S4 before we get to strike is a major problem.
If they get the charge they will wipe out most Ogre units with ease in 1 or 2 turns.

It is odd to see just how much the meta changes from place to place.  Out here if you even get lucky enough to see a bell it is pushed by clannies and never on the front lines.

Bell in the back with clanrats is "safer" but bell with stormvermin and a seer with fencer's blades is more fun.

I started off playing the first way but have found 150 slaves on the field to be a bit boring recently.  Neither is really good or bad, but I think a lot of skaven players don't regard the stormvermin/bell as a serious setup. 

The clanrats/bell setup is definitely more reliable and defensive and plays into the high attrition style that skaven are built towards.

On topic, large units of stormvermin can be solid against smaller groups of ogres, but horded ogres will usually survive the damage and the stormvermin's low price is due to their lack of defense.  Heavy armor alone really isn't anything special.  Ogres at 5 strength will wound on 2s and not allow any kind of armor save for the vermin. 

As I wrote above, regardless of Queek, stopping death frenzy is really a high priority in the magic phase if you're facing stormvermin in one of your combats.

Ironblasters' top targets should probably be Doomwheels, Warp Lightning Cannons, and Hellpits if you're able to land something flaming on them first (maneaters with a flaming banner or leadbelchers with a flaming bsb).  The seer/bell have ward saves and all that business.  If you only wound the seer, he'll heal with skalm.

Hi you guys,

just had a friendly 2000 points game last night against Skaven and suffered a minor loss, but it was a really fun game.

Some advice for my fellow tyrants :

- watch out for the doomwheel, its shooting attacks can really hurt.I nearly lost my stonehorn in turn 1 due to it, the doomwheel didn't make it to turn 3  .

- The Hell pit is hard as hell and causes real pain. Kill it as soon as possible.

- The combination Queek with stormvermin is hard even for us ogres, the combined love of the IB and leadbelchers should do the work.

But it was fun , and up until turn 5 their was no real winner but then i lost my tyrant and all hell broke lose 

cheers

I have a question on the bounce of e warp lightning cannon.

Does monstrous units like ogres block the shot if the model hit is not killed? Also if the shot is stopped then is the small template dropped on the surviving model?

I have a question on the bounce of e warp lightning cannon.

Does monstrous units like ogres block the shot if the model hit is not killed? Also if the shot is stopped then is the small template dropped on the surviving model?

Q: If a shot from a Warp Lightning Cannon does not kill a
Monstrous Infantry/Beast/Cavalry or Monster model does that shot
stop? (p68)
A: No. All models are still hit.

From the latest Skaven FAQ

Yeah - WLC's NEED to be your Ironblasters turn 1 priority - in fact they're a priority until they're no longer on the table!

Taking out Warp Lightning Cannons and Abominations with shooty units is priority number one.

Priority number two is to take out the grey seer with a hell heart/sniper Man Eaters.

Priority number 3, get your close combat units (Iron Guts for me) to bash their hordes. While fear isn't as useful as it would be against other armies due to strength in numbers, it can help sometimes. Combine that with heavy armor and unless they're running the Armor Piercing banner, most Skaven aren't going to deal damage to you. When it's your turn to attack, the sheer number of wounds you can cause (Impact hits, 2+ to wound due to Great Weapons, stomp) will more often than not lead you to taking out a rank a turn on average.

If you take out their magic and their devastating units, all that's left is a horde of rats for your own hordes to squash.

Whats the best way to deal with an Abomb at the 2000 points level? I'am not running a firebelly or flaming maneaters so I'am a bit worried that my army wont be able to deal with it. I'll have 1x5 and 1x4 of Mournfangs as well as 10 stubborn IG's with some chaff

just slam the Ironguts into it.

Its only T5 with regeneration, actually not that hard to put down. Of course it could just get back up, but it could also just spawn a few rat swarms.


The biggest issue is its random attacks. Some results just screw us, others are ludicriously ineffective.


I fear Hydras more to be honest, the Abom is random just like the rest of the Skaven army. WLCs and Doomwheels are a bigger threat.

Maneaters with pistols and the flaming banner pretty much spell the end of it, especially with poison.  Knock down regen and then follow up with an Ironblaster shot, if needed.  Personally, I ignore it in favor of dusting the Warp Lightning Cannons first, as an Irongut block with a firebelly in it pretty much destroys it and I run two of those.

I'm facing a skaven army real soon in my league.  Unfortunately, I don't know much about what he likes to run.  I think he goes with bell AND the plague whatever-the-hell it is.

I'm planning on running 2 ironblasters, 7 maneaters with BoP, sniper, poison, and the flaming banner, and 8 lead belchers.  My core is going to be 15 bulls (either in a horde, or a unit of 6 and a unit of 9 with my SM and BSB), and I'm running a BSB with the banner of discipline and a level 4 SM with crown and dispel scroll.
 
Obviously, I'm going for the shootie-method, with an emphasis on character sniping.  Opinions?  Would it be better to try and snipe the grey seer off the bell, and use the IBs to take out warp-lightning cannons?  WLCs before the bell for IB target priority?  Dump the lead belchers and take 4 mournfangs?

It should be a good list agaist skaven. Warp Cannons are really the top priority for your ironblasters!


One thing to note is, that a firebellys flame template can absolutely decimate big skaven units. I have experienced my firebelly doing more damage against empire and skaven with a single template than my 6-8 leadbelchers over the entire game!

If you're building a list to beat Skaven then you're on the right track.

Bulls will be better than Iguts since the S6 s largly redundant especially since you could buff the Bulls strength if needed with maw.

Make sure you take a cou-ple of tusks to hunt his weapon teams!

Make sure you take Rock Eye - if you're having sniping maneaters then use rock eye to hunt for the damn doomrocket/brass orb on turn one and snipe the bastard dead! Then double ironblaster the grey Seer. He can't get LoS rolls as he's sat on the bell and your IB will hit both parts (i believe!) He has a nasty good ward save but it's worth it!

You your leaddies to whittle down the oncoming plague monks/furnace!

Oh, and deploy your leaddies to protect your flanks as if he deploys gutter runners they play hell with us! Poison shots suck ass! Had a mate run 3 units of them - scouted them all and just decimated my main ironguts unit before i could even move them!

The only thing I would alter is to dump sniper off of the MEs for stubborn.  You don't need sniper to shoot at the bell or cauldron and the odds of getting any wounds on a bunkered wizard in an army with this much chaffe is minimal at best.  With Stubborn, the unit can double as a shock troop and kamakazee the center of the board.

Actually, reading this thread got me all nervous about the possiblity of the storm banner completely nerfing my shooting.  This issue with my league is that I have a number of challenges I have to meet over the course of my games, and I am restricted to the use of Maw or Beast magic (players can only use two lores for the duration of the league).  Since I'm in the finals, I have to use TWO challenges per game.  Initially I was going to take a 200 point penalty and use only common magic items.  Since it's single elimination, I'm thinking about putting off the 200 point penalty, and instead doing 'only one wizard' and the 'common magic items only.'  Granted, this means that, assuming I win this match, my next match will be against one of two OK players, and I'll probably have to take the '200 point penalty' and the 'only magic weapons' challenges 

Anyways, the alternative I was thinking of was two blocks of 9 bulls (FC, IF), 4 Mournfangs (SB, Mu, DHB), 5 maneaters (ST, Mu, BoP, poison, sniper, flaming banner), 2 Ironblasters, and my Thundertusk.  And of course my lvl 4 SM with CoC, DS and my BSB with discipline banner.

The storm banner will affect the IBlasters, but not the poison pistoleaters very much as they can still double tap for poison.  I consider Skaven a favorable matchup for Ogres, so I would save my easier challenges for enemies like WoC or DE.  Only one wizard is actually a pretty save manuever for this army, since most of the skaven magic is weaker against Ogres and the hellheart should be all the defense you need.  As scary as the Abombs are, you are better off focusing your early attention on Warp Lightning Cannons and/or Doomwheels, because even a basic Irongut block stands a pretty solid chance of crushing an Abomb.  A single Firebelly with the hellheart (or Scroll/Ruby Ring combo) is likely all you need, freeing up lots of points to put more boots on the ground.

remember, the storm banner is -2 to all shooting, and non-BS shooting is on a 4+ only.  Fortunately it affects both sides, so I'm not sure just how likely it will be, since it'll mess with his weapon teams and WLCs.  For the curious, here is the list of my league challenges.  You had to pick one per game initially, and the you had to use two in the finals.  Games are 2400 points, and you are only allowed access to two lores, chosen at the start of the league.
-100 points
-200 points
-300 points (not used during finals)
only common magic items (1 rune for dwarves)
only one wizard (1 rune lord/smith for dwarves)
only magic weapons (1 rune for dwarves)
no repeat specials or rares
may take a single SoM monster/unit as a rare choice; enemy wizards freely know the unbinding cantrip (not used during finals)

These have definitely been, well, challenging, and have really introduced some variety to the lists.

Surely the storm banner will cripple your sniping posion maneaters?
-2 from storm banner
-1 for sniping
-1 potential long range
-1 moving

taking you well over needing 6's to hit..

Poison doesn't come into play if you need greater than a 6 to hit

No minus for moving, pistols are Quick to Fire.

You just single tap and do not snipe the turn the banner gets popped (honestly, I do not bother with sniping anyhow) to go for poison wounds on war machines or monsters.

Ogres truimphed again, and I thought I'd go ahead an give a quick battle report.

My opponent surprised everyone and, instead of taking his more typical list of bell, furnace, abombs, and lots of rats and teams, he brought a queek headtaker list.  So, here are some of the things that had a huge impact on the game.

His stuff:

The brass orb: this thing is vulgar, especially against our big monsters.  One use only, small blast template, all touched pass an init test or die.  Now, it's range is extremely limited, but if combined with the Ruin spell skitter leap (place a character anywhere) allows for a uber-nasty surprise.  Lost my thundertusk first turn, and the engineer holding it was then a ridiculously effective charge blocker.

The storm banner: he popped it first turn, and it continued until turn 4.  Yes, this was a little atypical, but not horrifically so.  The penalty will completely shut down lead belchers, and severely hamper sniper maneaters.  Fortunately, it also affects his weapon teams, so the likelihood of it's appearance is questionable, and our ironblasters are still rock-solid chariots, even without the gun.

Assassins: Rock-eye to reveal them, then snipe the h*** out of them.  These guys are terrifying, with 6 rerolling attacks, wound on a 4+, and each unsaved wound becoming d3 wounds.  The only thing that saved me from this guy was him wiffing on the wound roll one turn, and me getting ridiculously lucky with my regen rolls the next turn.

Our stuff:
Impact Hits: sure, we all know they're great, but it's the application that makes a difference.  Mournfang impacts are perfect for dealing with abombs.  A unit of 4 with the flaming banner (or flaming from some other source), by the math, inflicts 4 unsaved wounds, before blows are struck.  Add in a strength buff, or a combi-charge with an ironblaster, and it'll die without ever swinging.
Sniper Maneaters: yes, I just mentioned how the storm banner can hurt these guys.  At close range, maneaters can still pull of a sniper attack.  Without the storm banner, and with poison, a unit of 6 maneaters kills a hero-level character a round.  Thats a BSB, an assassin, an engineer, etc.  A deciding point in my game was turn 5, once the banner failed, when I sniped out my opponent's BSB

I jjust played my first game against skaven and I just got my butt handed to me. Admittedly the dice gods had it in for me. First turn one ironblaster blows up the other gets a 1 to wound his warp lightning cannon. Said WLC kills 6 of the 9 ogres in a squad. Second turn the other ironblaster blows up and well it just goes on from there...

What units do you find effective against skaven? I took a unit of scouting maneaters and while they  managed to hold up 80 clanrats for three turns I didnt appreciate getting shot at with warpfire throwers(in shooting and while charging) or having some assassin guy come from the board edge and rear charge them with his d3 wounds sword. So I think having the scout special rule just doesnt work out for them against these huge mobs... Perhaps stubborn/poison with flaming banner?

Are MFC worth it against skaven? My biggest isssue is they are so cheap and drag you down with numbers(yes I know theyre skaven and ogres are their antithesis but still...). How can I even up the playing field?

So, I will be playing against my buddy's skaven army in the next few days. I was wondering if there are any solid 1000 point recommendations out there since it is tricky with ogres and their limited numbers.

Ironblasters to deal with WLCs and the possible A-bomb.  Leave the mournfangs at home; too expensive for too few models.  Similarly, forget the Ironguts.  Just stick with bulls.  A unit of leadbelchers, say 4-6, would be nice; they'll make short work of weapon teams.  Warp fire throwers get target priority.  As for magic (assuming you want any), a firebelly would be nice; you can get an awesome number of hits with his breath template against a rat-bus.

What about maneaters? My scout stubborn maneaters would've been destroyed by warp fire throwers except for some unlucky rolls on his part.

Just ogres and belchers and Blasters?

I love maneater; they're my favorite unit.  But at 1000 points, I'd still rather have the bodies.  At a higher point game, I recommend them over MFC any day, although against rats they're almost overkill.  I've seen a unit of 6 tear through a bus of 80 clanrats in 3 combat phases.

I had six scout stubborn maneaters in my las game with heavy armor and ahw. I even got them to charge and tie up a large block of rats for a couple turns but the. This assassin guy came in off the board edge with his six refillable attacks that did d3 wounds each... What the heck can I do against that?

Don't use scouts 

Seriously, the first part of the answer is the Rockeye.  He has to reveal hidden characters in units.  Just pick out the most likely hiding spots (the assassins usually are in units with characters to safeguard them) for the first 2 turns.

The second part is up to you, and involves a little debate.  A.) you can just avoid that unit.  Not very Ogrish, but there it is.  B.) You can leadbelcher the F*%^ out of it.  A big unit of leadies vaporizes rats.  C.)  Technically, when a hidden character is revealed, it must then actually be placed in the unit, in the front rank if possible.  This means that it is a legal target for Sniper/Poison Maneaters.  Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have the BRB handy), but this follows RAW.  I've had Rat players balk at it, but the local TO backed me up.  Just don't know if anyone else has tried it.

The guy who he likes to take is deathmaster snitch who comes in from reserves on a 4+ and starts at any table edge. I guess it's a matter of staying away from table edges.

Ah.

Deathmaster Snitch is a beast, and short of just taking my lumps and hoping the remaining bodies squish him, I haven't found a decent way (aside from staying away from the table edges  ) of dealing with him.

He can't charge the turn he comes on(can he?)

That gives you one turn to react to his presence.

Don't use scouts 

Seriously, the first part of the answer is the Rockeye.  He has to reveal hidden characters in units.  Just pick out the most likely hiding spots (the assassins usually are in units with characters to safeguard them) for the first 2 turns.

The second part is up to you, and involves a little debate.  A.) you can just avoid that unit.  Not very Ogrish, but there it is.  B.) You can leadbelcher the F*%^ out of it.  A big unit of leadies vaporizes rats.  C.)  Technically, when a hidden character is revealed, it must then actually be placed in the unit, in the front rank if possible.  This means that it is a legal target for Sniper/Poison Maneaters.  Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have the BRB handy), but this follows RAW.  I've had Rat players balk at it, but the local TO backed me up.  Just don't know if anyone else has tried it.

This is wrong.  It does not say reveal is says announce.  You use the eye and they tell you that they have a assassin in the unit.  He stays hidden though.

Ah.

as I said, I wasn't quite sure how it would work.  Just knowing he's there can be a big help though.  Is the assassin required to be revealed once the unit is in combat?  Throwing something cheap and easy into it would work to reveal him then.

Thats a lot of and, and and... if you don't get them all, you may be in for a surprise :-)
than still they may well destroy more of their army than you may... love my skaven!!

Make sure you keep an eye on Rat Ogres. Those guys tend to hurt Bulls pretty hard, and will also finish off a reasonably weakened Irongut unit. No save makes them bearable, but you're not looking at one either save for a Parry.

Just played a Shooty list: Which worked out really well:



Lords - 385
Slaughtermaster (385)
Greedy Fist; Fencers Blades; Glittering Scales; Level 4 Wizard.

Heroes - 190
Bruiser (190)
Rune Maw; battle standard.

Core - 647
14 Ironguts (647)
Gutlord; Bellower; standard bearer; Standard Of Discipline.

Special - 943
10 Leadbelchers (440)
Bellower.

1 Sabretusk (21)

1 Sabretusk (21)

1 Sabretusk (21)

10 Leadbelchers (440)
Bellower.

Rare - 340
Ironblaster (170)

Ironblaster (170)


A few takeaways:

Leadbelchers really made this list work. What I would change for next time is maybe break up the belchers into 3 units.  There was a lot of single model targets which feel like overkill having 10 belchers shooting at. Skaven weapons teams are a great target and need to be dealt with. They can also be good for warmachine duty, in a pinch.

I normally don't take/like ironblasters, but in this list they were priceless.  Keep them on warmachine duty.

Runemaw didn't do anything for me, so the next time I'll scrap it for a crown or maybe a down payment on a firebelly.

Bonecrusher is a way to deal with weapons teams/warmachines

Toothcracker was actually more helpful then trollguts. My opponent kept using skitterleap to have his weapons team plop next to my block and hit me with warpfire templates. Toothcracker made the S5 hits less painful.

After reading this thread I learned not to fear the rats as much, and made my opponent feel what Shooty Ogres can do.

Against Skaven, Braingobbler is actually quite useful as they are generally low Leadership. Strength in Numbers does reduce the impact but it isn't always the case.

Make sure you keep an eye on Rat Ogres. Those guys tend to hurt Bulls pretty hard, and will also finish off a reasonably weakened Irongut unit. No save makes them bearable, but you're not looking at one either save for a Parry.

Perfect targets for Leadbeltchers is what Ratogres are.

According to the Skaven book, Skitterleap can only be used on characters, so weapons teams can't be teleported.

According to the Skaven book, Skitterleap can only be used on characters, so weapons teams can't be teleported.

Huh... Good catch, I'll let my friend know.

@LawGnome

A cannon has been faq'd errata'd... It is now a warmachine with only 3 man = 3 wounds.
If you kill 2 man, only 1 can attack back.

Also note that taking a Fellblade also has its downside, every own turn ending, he needs to roll a D6. On a result of 1 & 2, It takes a wound with no save of any kind.
Also note, that the fellblade is also faq'd errata'd and it is now stating that No armour saves are allowed and every succesful wardsave need to be rerolled.

To all,

These are things, people might forgetting as it hurts themselves. And Skaven is full on hurting themselves.

Also with the Warptokens the Grey Seer is using. At the beginning of the battle they roll a D3 for the number of tokens. The grey Seer can eat a token and can add 1 Power Die extra in his casting. But when this die is rolling a 1, the wizzard suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed. So ask him to roll separate for this token, or have him using a different colordie for it.

Also a common one they regular forget, is the warpligthing spell. When casted and he rolls for the number of hits. If the number of hits rolled is a 1, then the caster suffers a stregth 5 hit instead of the target.

The doomwheel errata: it treats terrain in the same manner as a chariot.
But he cannot move like a chariot. still random movement, straight lines.

Also note... Loss of controll: At the end of any phase in which an unengaged Doomwheel takes a wound, the skavenplayer must take a loss of contol test. Roll a D6 for each wound suffered in that phase. On a roll of a 1, the doomwheel needs to roll on the Missfire chart.

If a triple is rolled for moving the Hell Pit Abomination (except when fleeing or pursuing), do not move it, instead roll immediately on the Beserk Abomination chart.

 
But don't forget your own forgetting, when after each succesful casted spell of the lore of Maw, a 1 is rolled you get a S6 hit. And do not forget to roll the 2D6 at the end of each magic phase where Grut's Sickle is used!!!.

Remembered all to well, when I had a battle against an Ogre player on a tourney, with my High Elves, I had to remind him on this, every time. Even in a later game, right next to my table he "sorry forgot" it each time.

So, be a good sport at all time and not be a "sorry forgot" person... Thanks