Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Skaven

Summary from the old forum:

- ikim


- slaughteredbull


- Hragged


- justanotherogre


- Nibbles

Siegebreaker. Don't use it. Your average Clanrat has an I of around 4, Stormvermin 5, Warlord 7 and Assassin 8.

*shudder*

I need a 2k list vs Slann for next monday, unfortunately I know nothing about them or what army list would best match them, ideas for a balanced list greatly appreciated!

Take a big, big, big unit of ogres to combat the temple guard with the slann, they're hard to kill but if you win combat and outnumber theres 800+ pts fleeing, maybe challenge with tenderiser?

You're in a spot of trouble here, I think, Splat, because of several reasons:

1. The Slann might have taken the Totem of Prophecy, and so, is immune to fear.

2. Temple Guard are stubborn when there's a Slann in their unit.

3. Temple Guard and Slann are cold-blooded.

4. Slann have Ld9.

Actually I think he's ld 10 just for kicks hehe..

it seems many people fear the skaven army of doom.
can anyone tell me what it whould contain?

I heard Ikim plays this army, right?

@Fah: SAD (Skaven/shooty/skryre army of doom) is very hard to beat, by any army.
It is a very cheesy army, that has all the things other armies fear.
Skaven, especially clan skryre units, have a lot of warmachines, that might be considered -just a tad -unbalanced.
In such armies you can see:
8-10 jezzails (36" range, st6, armor piercing shots);
2-4 ratling guns (that autohit, with a predictalble misfire. It is machine gun that shoots up to 21 st4, armor piercing shots; 15" range).
1-2 warplighthing cannon (that works like the cannon ball's rebound: hence, hits all that's under it, in a straight line, dealing d6 hits, at artillery dice strength, so, from st2 to st10).
2-4 warpfire throwers (the flame template moves the distace from the artillary dice, and deals st5 d3 hits).
5-6 globadiers (skirmishers that use thier BS to throw a ball that deals 1 wound, no armour save).
and, most of all:
3-4- warlock engineers. These are level 1 mages, that can be upgraded to lvl 2, and know the warp lighting spell, that deal d6 or 2d6 hits, at st5 hits at 24" range). Often these mages are equipped with the stormdeamon, that deals is a bound spell that casts the warp lighitng spell.

scared? Well, you should be.
cheers


P.S. I don't play SAD, I play skaven, and I try to keep it as balanced as possible, inclouding units like stormvermin and monks, that are not usually known for their cheesiness.

and I thought empire and dwarfs could make shooty armies....

do those globadiers really cause a wound per hit?

Globadiers are nasty, but easy to kill. The problem is more that they may not be the No. 1 priority (as you want to be killing the ratling guns...) until they start slapping you around.

The skaven army is ridiculous over-powered, which is a shame, because I think it is really one of the most characterful armies around.

Uh, and did I mention that all skaven warmachines are stand and shoot (apart the warp lighting warp cannon), and that they are all skirmishers?
cheers

Hey, I've been playing Skaven for about 4 1/2 years, and I just recently picked up the Ogre Kingdoms book.  I've never actually faced an OK army on the table, so anything I say is purely theoretical, but this is what jumps out at me:

On the magic item front, Skaven have access to some weapons and items that can be extremely nasty if used to effect against ogres:

The Fellblade.  The FB turns each of a skaven warlord (or Master Assassin, Plague Lord, Master Mutator in the variant armies) attacks into a cannon ball from a great cannon, essentially.  That is, they are str10, causing d6 wounds.  As you can imagine, these attacks will really hit home against units of ogres, particularly if the character is in a unit with the banner which gives him hatred.  It is not out of the realm of possibility for this  175 point lord to cleave down entire ranks of ogres.  The upside is that the warlord must start testing on his first turn to take damage from the weapon himself, which also reveals its presence.  With movement 6, ogre units shouldn't have much of a problem avoiding the warlord's unit, and instead engaging him with gnoblars to the front combined with a flank attack of some sort.  Be very cautious against Clan Eshin armies (from the SoC book).  An eshin army can use the skaven spell Skitterleap to throw a master assassin with a FB directly into combat.  Against such an army be very mindful of your dispel attempts, and be careful of what you leave to wander alone.  This master assassin can easilly eviscerate lone hunters, butchers, tyrants, scarplaunchers, and even small ogre units of ~3.

The Weeping Blade: Basically, a mini-fellblade that is safer, stealthier, and cheaper to use (meaning in this case that skaven heroes can afford to take it.) It will make most skaven characters strength 5, causing d3 wounds.  If you suspect a character may have this weapon, I might suggest feeling him out first with gnoblars or neutralizing him before he can attack with one of your own charging characters.

Warpstone Stars: A particularly nasty weapon favored by skaven assassins.  WS are essentially weeping blades that the character throws in the shooting phase.  strength 5, d3-wound causing throwing stars with increased range.  If you leave isolated units of ogres around, a skaven assassin can run rings around them, possibly killing several per turn without ever having to worry about your fear by avoiding combat.

Brass Orb: Most Skaven players confine this item to glorious tales of killing Lord Kroak in a single hit.  If you should run into a skaven player who actually uses it though, (and it can be taken by any of our heroes), be weary of a short-ranged small template attack that will force all affected models to take an initiative check or die outright, regardless of wounds, armor, or ward saves.  A good shot could potentially send your Tyrant and several Ironguts packing.

Units of note in the army list:

Warp-Lightning Cannon:  A very popular choice among skaven generals, myself included.  The WLC zaps anything in a straight line within 8d6 with a hit that causes d6 wounds.  I don't think I have to go into the dangers associated with this device, which can also march-move to get into position for enfilading fire and ignores all terrain bar-rocks, and needs no line of sight.  The greatest weakness of the WLC is that it must flee from any declared charge.  Barring gnoblar trappers, a fast-moving hunter with sabertusks can probably scare the cannon off in the second turn if he can manage a clear vector of approach.  Just be weary, the hunter can be easilly vaporized

Warp-fire thrower: Generally forgone for the cheaper and easier-to-control ratling gun, the WFT can really come into its own against OK armies.  This weapon team can dish out a template worth of hits that cause d3 wounds apiece and forces an immediate panic test to any unit which takes a casualty.  Sounds like a great multi-pupose ogre/gnoblar killer to me.  Short of sending a mission to deal with the WFT itself, which is notorious for misfiring horribly, be careful of how you position your units near it, don't tempt fate by lining up your ogres in such a way that the template can nail all of them, or more than one unit.

Poisoned-Wind Globadiers: Globadiers are one of our counters to anything with high toughness and/or armor save, as they wound consistently and ignore armor.  A full unt of these guys can easilly assassinate lone ogre characters and maneaters, and are sometimes used in pairs to screen the frontage of clanrat units, forcing you to charge them and fail (they flee) or charge and clip the clanrat units, forcing you to only get one ogre in contact and get thwomped at combat resolution time.  These units are rarely used by Skaven players today because of their horribly unreliable leadership, and this is exactly what you're best to exploit.  As ld5 skirmishers, these guys can never benefit from our Strength in Numbers™ rule.  A terror-causing tyrant will almost invariably send them running and, with no ranks and no option for a musician, they won't likely rally.

"The Clan Pestilens Special"
As nasty as plague monks might seem, they are generally fielded as part of a composite unit than can spell doom for many things in the warhammer world, not least of which are the OK.  Most Skaven players will take a unit of plague monks with extra hand weapons and the banner of hatred, led by a plague priest, and flanked/screened by a unit of plague censer bearers.  If the skaven knew beforehand they were facing OK and gave the plague priest a weeping blade, nothing will be able to stand up to this unit on its own.  Gnoblar and Ogre units alike will melt beneath a torrent of hate-fueled attacks, backed up by high strength flail-fanatics with a specialist gas attack.  Charge PCB's with high-tougness, multi-wound units to see them off, and make sure to execute a combined charge on the parent unit if you ever expect it to flee.

**

All right, there are just a few of the most obvious-looking things to be aware of in the Skaven army.  I hope that may prove insightful to someone

I just fought Skaven for the first time tonight and was soundly defeated.  He told me he didn't even have that much shooting (2 ratling guns, 8 jezzails) for a skaven army but it was certainly too much for me.  He just fled everytime I charged him and my ironguts and maneaters couldn't get into any fights.  On turn 6 he destroyed my 3 maneaters with full wounds with his jezzails, inflicting 7 wounds and then finishing them off with magic.  I pretty much handed him those victory points with a silly failed charge.  Next time I'm either going to go full tilt at those jezzails or stay completely out of their range (or at least at long range).

I can see where I made some dumb mistakes (I put my butchers right where they could be charged) but I really don't see what I could have done against all that shooting.  My 4 support units of bulls just got shredded.  My regular gnoblars were worthless.  I never get to deploy the trappers near the enemy since the terrain pieces in our club are too small to hide in.  He also took up the entire side of the board so even with decent terrain I wouldn't have been able to use them.  The only thing that fared well was my big unit of 7 ironguts.  My 2 butchers only got off only 1 meaningful spell (trollguts on the ironguts) and only then because he didn't know it was +1 toughness so he let it through.

The jezzails and ratling guns pulled in the lion's share of his victory points.  I really don't see how I could beat an army with so much shooting and which just flees from almost every charge.  But I really don't know the rules for Skaven at all.  Surely there is some way to deal with the jezzails and ratling guns?  He told me a warpfire cannon would have been even worse for me.  What do those do?

I'm not looking for advice on what kind of list beats Skaven, since we are starting a league and I'll need an 'all-comer's' list, but when I face him again, what tactics can I possibly use to stop his shooting and deal with the massive amounts of ranked units?

Check my post above for some info on the warpfire thrower, it would indeed be nasty against ogre armies.

My advice would be to try to achieve local superiority on the skaven.  I haven't had many battles with my ogre kingdoms army yet, but if I were facing someone playing my skaven and I was using my ogre kingdoms army, I'd set up to deny flank, and focus on bringing as much force to bear on one half of the skaven army as possible while keeping the other half distracted.  It sounds like he uses the bait and flee tactic a lot so be conscious of how your charges, particularly against his slaves, will leave you hanging afterward.  Don't be afraid not to charge his slaves, even if doing so would let them charge you.  The only thing you really need to worry about from slaves are flank charges and how they will force you to reposition if you charge.  If slaves charge you head on, just open your mouth and let them charge into your stomach.

Jezzail hits are nasty, but jezzail units are incredibly vulnerable to just about anything except light missile fire (do to skirmishing and their pavise).  They would be a good target for your trappers, since just about anything the opponent could do to stop them would work to your advantage.  Also, as you close in to short range, you could have a butcher braingobbler them.  The maximum leadership they can have is 7 (from the warlord), but as they tend to be behind or to the side of the battle line, they will more likely be taking that panic test on a 5.

I agree, the denied flank would have given me a better chance.  I think in the next battle, I will try to judge where he will set up his shooting (on a hill most likely) and then overload that side with everything I have.  Sure he can shoot me to bits for a couple of turns, but at least by then I can stop the bleeding.  If I protect my butchers, maneaters, and ironguts somewhat, I might be able to eek out a minor victory since that's where all my points are.

I also run a gorger in my army.  Last night he just held up a unit of clanrats for a couple of turns.  Any suggestions about how to use him to better effect.  I thought charging the jezzails would be suicidal so I opted for a softer target.

Also, are there any of the skaven ranged weapons that don't let him stand and shoot?

It's possible, but unlikely, for his jezzails to slay your gorger if he's only getting a single volley.  If he deploys his jezzails close enough to an edge such that you could deny him the 'stand and shoot' reaction after his one volley in the shooting phase, it's very unlikely he will stop your gorger (causing an average of 2-3 wounds) unless he uses something else, which is another resource diverted from your battle line.

The skaven can stand and shoot with everything except the warp lightning cannon, which can only flee from a charge (making it a good target for the gorger...which is however, also a good target for the cannon).

Remember, skaven leadership is 100% contingent on their rank bonus.  Units without rank bonuses, such as jezzails, are most vulnerable to leadership-based attacks.  Braingobbler, terror, and panic tests in general will get rid of them.

Hi new to this site and i have just started the game. I have had the models for some time but never had a chance to play. I have Skaven and Ogre kingdoms.

My sugestion is to watch out for the warp fire thrower. I almost lost a big unit of 9 ogres to panic from a tiny singe on one ogre! At the time I did not realize that it had to cause a casualty rather than a wound. So we fixed that and my unit was back in play! I would run something into these guys first to lock them up before trying to pass them. Keep in mind I have just started so I dont know much but I do know thoes are dangerous!!! These are the only 2 armies I have so next time ill be the skaven, so I hope my bud does not remember this, hehe.

Anywho see ya next time.

just take the brahmir statue and skullmantle and laugh at the skaven.

Heheh, I'd love to play a skaven SAD with my dark elves some day. I'll have 3/4 of his army running off the board by turn 3.

My Ogre Kingdoms army will probably have a lot of difficulties with skaven though unless I can use Skrag. 4-6 gorgers should be particularly devastating for an army with so many warmachines.

Skaven don't have that many warmachines (only really the Warplighting Cannon, although I guess a case could be made for Jezzails). Things like ratling guns and Warpfire throwers run with the units due to their limited range.

4-6 Gorgers would be very useful in 7th Edition, however, with the 'crossfire' rule...

Allow me to suggest using gnoblars versus skaven, most of their shootiness is much less deadly if your guys cost 2 pts per wound instead of 12 pts. Also those mighty weapons aren't so scary in a challenge vs a groinbiter.

Sure using hordes of gnobbos makes your army slow, but I'd rather have my gnobbos get shot at for 3 rounds than my bulls for one round and if you bring a scraplauncher or two the extra time won't be wasted.

about dark elves:
you'd be surprised, they still have big blocks and Ld 9

And with all those S5 and S4 armour piercing shots your T3 elves will panic sooner.
I know, I've tried.

your ogres should just be running forward to get in combat and overrun them as soon as possible

You watch out for the stupid screaming bell and it's almighty power of making everything in the army frenzied!!!!!!!

I played my first OK game vs skaven a few days ago (2000p) and gained a pretty easy victory. It was an all-shooty skaven army, including everything that can shoot as well as 4 wizards, and then a few large blocks of clan rats and slaves.

I played with lots of small bull units as well as gnoblars, and then a unit of IGs and some maneaters as my heavy units. I took the statue and a ward save for my tyrant and the bangstick for one of my butchers, otherwise no items. Trying to make everything as cheap as possible.

The first turn was of course very painful and I lost quite many ogres, but at turn two my first units charged into combat and at the third turn all of my  untits where fighting. As I see it the big trouble was to get there, but as soon as combat occured he had little chance.

I believe my strategy had worked quite well against a non-shooting skaven army as well, cause then I would have had two of my units against all of the enemys powerful units, and that should be enough me thinks...

Against Skaven, Gorgers are quite good at holding up his infantry blocks, giving your ogres time to deal with them at your leisure. Most rank and file skaven will struggle to even hurt a Gorger and if charged in the rear they are probably stuck there.

I have a quick question about rear attacks. Other than the +2 to combat res, is their any thing else that I might have missed? It just seams a bit funny to me that when fighting someone at their back, that they would be able to fight you with full ability. I am getting better at the rules now, but I still could be missing something. Thanx

I figured as a perspective OK player and a 'veteren' (5 yrs) Skaven player I would try and add my two cents to help everyone out maybe.  I use a horde army with 250+ models and no shooting usually but I have tried SAD lists and each of the major clans as well. 

Cause panic checks.  Read every panic check enducing rule in the book twice!  With Skaven the best strategy I have seen is to punch a hole in some part of their line.  This is what OK are made to do.  I know this sounds easier than it actually is but even if its slaves focus your fire on one unit!  Demolish them and overrun into the clanrats or whatever is there.  Once you have broken the line let the fear and impact hits do their work.  When Skaven run they tend to bring their buddies along and I cannot count the times that Ive had 2X the number of points fleeing the battlefield as I have had killed.  Cause a unit to run past others and you have them.  Ive been beating by a very sound OK player after I gave him this advise.  He denied his flank to me early and after destroying my slaves (which dont cause panic checks) he hit my clanrats and cause them to flee and I had to take panic tests down the entire line.  This has the added benefit that it blocked the LoS of my warp lightning cannon and jezzials as well. 

Ratling guns into combat is bad but if the unit breaks then remember to have him take a panic check with them as well and if you destroy them I believe that its causes a panic check.  With the new edition you can target them more easily as well.  Use anything you can to cause panic checks and you will have them. 

One last thing.  Im guilty of this also to some extent but Skaven armies tend to have a certain 'trick' that the general is planning to use, its in our nature and that of the army. Look at the composition and the way the army is laid out and you can usually see it right away.  Counter that and it will mess a newer or medicore player up pretty bad.  Good luck all.

As both an Ogre and Skaven player I feel I should put a few suggestions down.

1. Scraplauncher! It's a must have vs Skaven. Their large units make great targets for it and with the exception of the Warp Lightning Cannon they can't destroy it in one shot (even the they need to roll for the range then get strength 8 or 10).

2. Butchers! Take a at least 2 (depending on what points you play) and give them Skullmantle and Brahmir Statue then Braingobbler to your hearts content. You'll also need your Butchers to dispel any Gray Seer sneakyness.

3. Trappers! Great for stopping marches, shooting Jezzails, Globardiers, Weapon Teams etc, destroying fleeing enemies, even charging warp lightning cannons (they have to flee).

4. Gnoblars! Great as a screen for your ogres (watch for bickering thou), drawing Plauge Monks from battle (frenzy so they have to charge), stopping slaves from tying up your ogres, holding up Plauge Rat Swarms (ogres dont like poisen attacks).

5. Gorgers! Again good at eating Skaven shooty stuff and eating fleeing units.

6. Leadbelchers! Fed up of Ratling guns and Warpfirethrowers...then shoot them back!

7. Hunter! His harpoon can cut through Skaven ranks like nothing and his sabertusks can "sic 'em" weapon teams

8. Yhettes! Whip round the flank, steal rank bonus, eat Jezzails, run down Warp Lightnin Cannon etc etc

9. Deamon Killer Scars! Combine it with the Brahmir Statue and watch those rats run.

10. Hand Weapons! Against Skaven those extra attacks will be damn helpful!

Hi guys, I'm pretty new to OK and I've had just one practice match with a friend who is fairly good at skaven, but he's definitely a nasty player. I believe that Hragged said at the begining of this forum who'd take two warp lightning cannons..... yeah, I know somone. Those things shredded me, they obliterated all my units, he has a tactic that he learned from the underkingdom: a skaven forum who is most certainly spying on us right now. He has taken to putting his warp lightining guns into forrests, were they can still fire, but cannot be charged until you are in the woods too. This means that whatever you use to attach the WLC will be exposed to shooting from it while crossing the field, and then when it enters the woods, before it can finnaly charge. And he has two, remember that they do d6 wounds, and that even counts when its str2 which he did roll once, and it still killed a bull and an irongut.

Aside from that he uses bait and flee with poison wind globadiers, leaving you with the option of charging them into his trap, or ignoring them and being shot. He doesnt really use weapons teams, thanks to 7th edition targeting rules, and he sets up the rest of his army checkerboard, with slaves out front. I'm thinking the best way to go is minimum unit size ogres, maybe use trappers, gorger, or yhetees to hunt his WLC, or use the trappers to knock out his globadiers. Anyway I'll post again with the results of the next battle, I'd appretiate any advice offered.

If he can see you and shoot, you can see him and charge him.
I don't know what you mean when you say that you can only charge him once hes in the forest. You can charge your ogres through open ground and the forest taking penalties for the difficult terrain when you enter it. If he can see you which is 2 inches out of terrain you can still effectively charge at least 11 inches
Tri

I have a quick question about rear attacks. Other than the +2 to combat res, is their any thing else that I might have missed? It just seams a bit funny to me that when fighting someone at their back, that they would be able to fight you with full ability. I am getting better at the rules now, but I still could be missing something. Thanx

I figured as a perspective OK player and a 'veteren' (5 yrs) Skaven player I would try and add my two cents to help everyone out maybe.  I use a horde army with 250+ models and no shooting usually but I have tried SAD lists and each of the major clans as well. 

Cause panic checks.  Read every panic check enducing rule in the book twice!  With Skaven the best strategy I have seen is to punch a hole in some part of their line.  This is what OK are made to do.  I know this sounds easier than it actually is but even if its slaves focus your fire on one unit!  Demolish them and overrun into the clanrats or whatever is there.  Once you have broken the line let the fear and impact hits do their work.  When Skaven run they tend to bring their buddies along and I cannot count the times that Ive had 2X the number of points fleeing the battlefield as I have had killed.  Cause a unit to run past others and you have them.  Ive been beating by a very sound OK player after I gave him this advise.  He denied his flank to me early and after destroying my slaves (which dont cause panic checks) he hit my clanrats and cause them to flee and I had to take panic tests down the entire line.  This has the added benefit that it blocked the LoS of my warp lightning cannon and jezzials as well. 

Ratling guns into combat is bad but if the unit breaks then remember to have him take a panic check with them as well and if you destroy them I believe that its causes a panic check.  With the new edition you can target them more easily as well.  Use anything you can to cause panic checks and you will have them. 

One last thing.  Im guilty of this also to some extent but Skaven armies tend to have a certain 'trick' that the general is planning to use, its in our nature and that of the army. Look at the composition and the way the army is laid out and you can usually see it right away.  Counter that and it will mess a newer or medicore player up pretty bad.  Good luck all.

As both an Ogre and Skaven player I feel I should put a few suggestions down.

1. Scraplauncher! It's a must have vs Skaven. Their large units make great targets for it and with the exception of the Warp Lightning Cannon they can't destroy it in one shot (even the they need to roll for the range then get strength 8 or 10).

2. Butchers! Take a at least 2 (depending on what points you play) and give them Skullmantle and Brahmir Statue then Braingobbler to your hearts content. You'll also need your Butchers to dispel any Gray Seer sneakyness.

3. Trappers! Great for stopping marches, shooting Jezzails, Globardiers, Weapon Teams etc, destroying fleeing enemies, even charging warp lightning cannons (they have to flee).

4. Gnoblars! Great as a screen for your ogres (watch for bickering thou), drawing Plauge Monks from battle (frenzy so they have to charge), stopping slaves from tying up your ogres, holding up Plauge Rat Swarms (ogres dont like poisen attacks).

5. Gorgers! Again good at eating Skaven shooty stuff and eating fleeing units.

6. Leadbelchers! Fed up of Ratling guns and Warpfirethrowers...then shoot them back!

7. Hunter! His harpoon can cut through Skaven ranks like nothing and his sabertusks can "sic 'em" weapon teams

8. Yhettes! Whip round the flank, steal rank bonus, eat Jezzails, run down Warp Lightnin Cannon etc etc

9. Deamon Killer Scars! Combine it with the Brahmir Statue and watch those rats run.

10. Hand Weapons! Against Skaven those extra attacks will be damn helpful!

Hi guys, I'm pretty new to OK and I've had just one practice match with a friend who is fairly good at skaven, but he's definitely a nasty player. I believe that Hragged said at the begining of this forum who'd take two warp lightning cannons..... yeah, I know somone. Those things shredded me, they obliterated all my units, he has a tactic that he learned from the underkingdom: a skaven forum who is most certainly spying on us right now. He has taken to putting his warp lightining guns into forrests, were they can still fire, but cannot be charged until you are in the woods too. This means that whatever you use to attach the WLC will be exposed to shooting from it while crossing the field, and then when it enters the woods, before it can finnaly charge. And he has two, remember that they do d6 wounds, and that even counts when its str2 which he did roll once, and it still killed a bull and an irongut.

Aside from that he uses bait and flee with poison wind globadiers, leaving you with the option of charging them into his trap, or ignoring them and being shot. He doesnt really use weapons teams, thanks to 7th edition targeting rules, and he sets up the rest of his army checkerboard, with slaves out front. I'm thinking the best way to go is minimum unit size ogres, maybe use trappers, gorger, or yhetees to hunt his WLC, or use the trappers to knock out his globadiers. Anyway I'll post again with the results of the next battle, I'd appretiate any advice offered.

If he can see you and shoot, you can see him and charge him.
I don't know what you mean when you say that you can only charge him once hes in the forest. You can charge your ogres through open ground and the forest taking penalties for the difficult terrain when you enter it. If he can see you which is 2 inches out of terrain you can still effectively charge at least 11 inches
Tri

The warp lightning cannon is deep in the woods, not on the edge. The gun itself can see and fire through woods thanks to its special rules. I have to enter the forrest first, then next turn I can see him and charge (after taking another blast from the thing).

Oh i didn't know you could do that with the warp lightning cannon.
Dosn't it need LOS to shoot.

No, it just draws a line and everything under it gets hit.

The beauty of the warplightning cannon is that although it can do horrendous damage (particularly to ogres with its d6 wounds), and it can see through anything except truly solid obsticles like hills or buildings, it does have a very bad misfire chart which almost always results in the weapon being damaged, or having the potential to blast your own troops.

The rule that it has to flee as a charge reaction doesnt really help when its vurtualy impossible to charge it without getting blasted at least twice. Anyway, he has stopped using two of them for now due to their rather self destructive nature.

Yeah, one on each flank can make even the best general have doubts about how the battle can go. If they are in the forest they dont need line of sight. They simply draw a line until they contact something like a hill or building.
I play Eshin, and I just want to say that if you let me skitterleap my master assassin you will be losing one of your HQ's. Probably a butcher first. Then Ill run around behind with my 14" charge hitting bull units in the no no.
My other assassin will run up to one of your flanks and try to warpstone star some of your leadbelchers. (who you can also kiss good bye) The sorcorers have 2 dislep scrolls so no brain gobbler for you and just expect the other one to release a good ole warp scroll on the most "threatening" (haha!) gnoblar unit. ( 2d6 s3 hits)
From there the jezzails will concentrate on some ironguts/maneaters while my triad goes to combat some 3 ogre bull squads...

warpscroll isnt 2D6, but every model in the unit takes a S3 hit

as for eshin, it is now an alternative list, and not universally legal (the skitterleaping assassin lords with fellblades into combat might be one of the causes :/)

as for WLCs ... 2 of them can and will wreck havoc, their misfire chart is better than a cannon's actually. they have 1/3 chances of destroying themselves, the blast template will not do much to them (and they shouldnt be too near units, if anything its 5 skaven) and the S10 random direction I have seen take down DPs and black coaches (there too no skavne player cares about loosing 10 models).

So even if it has 1/3 chances of dying, it still has 1/3 chances of shooting hard (though random direction ... still good) and will always shoot on the next turn

2 of them are very reliable, as only hills/buildings will cut LOS, and against ogres they rule

gorger should do well, as the WLC has random strength and D6 wounds the gorger has fair chances of surviving one shot

terror causers are beautiful against it, so are trappers (if it is in a wood but ungarded, which can happen ... if anything 8 trappers have decent chances against 5 night runners)

as for the basic skaven units, 2 ogres on the flanc of his battleline mean game over (but it will be hard to do against a good skaven player) and using the outnumbering far causers should work (very few skaven units are immune to fear, namely the BSB's unit can be, the pestilens if they havent lost combat, and the unit with the bell if there is one)

Hmmm Eshin, well I've had mixed results against them. The first time I played I got beaten quite badly, and the second I walked all over his ratty corpse. After skitterleaping the master into my tyrrant the yhetee cloak and wierdstone amulet saved him, and the tenderiser gave the assasin a birds eye view of the battlefield, the second assasin had even less luck when he failed to get off his bands of power and the butcher smeared him with the siegebreaker. Eshin are good for attempting to outmaneuver the ogres, but in some cases they can suffer from fear, and the fact that skirmishers are now march blocked is a bit of a kick in the pills to the whole army. The pro of eshin is their ability to swamp units one at a time, knock off characters, and units like jezzails can cause a bit of a fuss (wounding easily, but armour saves are non existant in most cases, and they still only cause one wound each I think?). The counter argument is that ogre units can really plow through the no armour save eshin as long as they get decent rolls to hit, and with fear, terror and panic it can get a little nasty.

I don't think either side is really advantaged, but the warplightning gun is one of the only things that really scares me in any of the skaven lists, because I will have to sacrifice something to get it (except maybe trappers, but its funny when they die).

Playing against a 'wall to wall' skaven army leaves you with only one option ...hope to break through his lines...turn around...wash rinse repeat...

Unfortunately 'wall to wall' (Which means Bricks of troops from one end all the way to the other) skaven is not done as much as I would like to see it on the table top and any good player will make sure you do not get to this cycle on him...

You are more likely to see 4 caster shooting st5 2d6 magic misselse at you with 18 power dice his first turn...three units of jazzaels, the super fun cannon that I can hide behind trees and still hit you with...

Do not get discouraged ogre players, as yes he will shoot the everliving fun out of you, but once you get into combat it is all over...everything runs...it really is that simple...

Vs a 'wall to wall' army...there really is nothing much you can do...

A few skaven tips.

1.  Skaven tend to be very vulnerable to magic.  Your most powerful spell against them will be the braingobbler spell (panic checks).  Yes, their blocks of troops do have good leadership, but their support units don't.  Jezzails, night runners, gutter runners, globadiers, weapons teams, all excellent choices.

2. Characters are a big part of this army.  A fully ranked unit of clanrats is only leadership 8, with a character 9 or 10.  Suicide units that would normally flee are good to use to stay and try to assassinate the character, which shouldn't be too hard. 

I'll try to post more later.

Make sure to have units with at least 4 ogres next to eachother. This way you'll get the most impact hits.
Then make sure to bring your aditional handweapons (or ironfists). The aditional attack almost equals another dead skaven. After the charge, pray that you score enough points and break trough the line of the skaven army.

Another advise is flanking ! When you get in combat with skaven you automatically have 4 points in the combat resolution against you, 1 for outnumber, and 3 for the ranks. Charge them in the flank, and they only have 1 point left, which is nullified by the points you get for charging in the flank. Now you just need to kill 4-5 skaven (which can't be that hard) and they won't be able to strike back. You win the combat resolution, you cause fear, they don't. "Bye, Bye skaven"

i find gnoblars can go hand to hand with skaven, and often win. It all counts on you having extra ranks. It also helps to flank or throw stuff at 'em.
i saw my unit of ironguts get killed by nightrunners, only to have the gnoblars avenge them

You win the combat resolution, you cause fear, they don't. "Bye, Bye skaven"

You still have to outnumber the skaven to make them autobreak and since they start with 25-30 models you won't autobreak them early on.

I agree that gnoblars are a good use against skaven, but I'd only use them against the skaven slaves, otherwise they are indeed outmatched since they have a lower WS and they cannot get a standard.

More things to watch out for vs Skaven

They have a few multiwound things in their armory.
1.  Assassins with Warpstone stars which are str5 and do d3 wounds
2.  Character with the Weeping Blade, +1 str, d3 wounds
3.  Warp Lightning cannon, variable str, d6 wounds
4.  Fell blade, str10, d6 wounds

Now, you won't see the fell blade very often, its expensive and dangerous, but the other 3 are much more common.

there are several things a skaven army is capable of

ranks and high damage ratling guns are a given warpfire throwers will wound on 3 and have d3 wounds and should also be avoided,

warp lightning as earlier stated but its stregnth is random so is questionable use and it has to flee when charged and dont expect trees to cover you it see's through them

 jezzails can ruin your day if your not careful with their high stregnth hits however as powerful as they are they are expensive and only bs3

plague monks you will want to avoid as much as possible with additional hand weapons and frenzy they get 3 attacks each in a rank of 5 thats 15 attacks comming at you this is damageing against all fatal against most,

plague censer bearers are another one to avoid they cause toughness tests or take a wound as well as allready being flail frenzy

what you have to remember is with exception of plague monks the killing and the staying in skaven are at each polar, either the rank and file cant kill for crap and the untis that can kill are either skirmish or single model and therefore wotn last against anything substancial

skaven also have large numbers when you play as a msu theres two effective tricks for this, either funnel them or spearhead

funnel = cause them to get stuck between terrain and other things negating their high numbers allowing you to pick them off at your own pace while all he can do is queue up his guys to die

spearhead= focus everything you have into a certain area(normally a flank) this again causes you to only have to fight 30% of his army with your full army giving you the advantage by the time the rest of his untis come to reinforce that will be a sizeable chunk gone,

leadbelcher targets: screaming bell, stormvermin, plague monks, untis with characters in.

one thing you should also avoid are rat ogres there stronger than you but cost more points but come with a packmaster for extra attacks

grey seer's and assasins should be your character targets. grey seer is the level 4 caster of the skaven and at best will only have a 5+ armor save 4+ ward save (possibly 3 vs magic and shooting) and regeneration   but to get these will cost a sizable ammount of points since grey seers cost 200+ points as standard anyway ( mabey a extra 200 if their on a screaming bell)

assasins are lord stregnth heros with scout skirmish hidden commonly either with warpstone stars or weeping blades however it has 2 wounds and never armor if the assasin has a ward save then it wont have a effective weapon besides its additional poisoned hand weapons and costs more points than their warlord so killing it will give you a nice point boost

spells to avoid:
warp lightening- warlock engineers and grey seers and another bound spell in storm daemon gives another warp l;ightening to warlock engineers.  if he has no grey seer this will be their only spell

skitterleap: this spell will ruin your day if left unchecked it allows the skaven player to put a character anywhere on the board this includes those nasty assasins with multi wounds. (if SoC list then they can even be skitterleaped into combat and allmost allways it will be a master assasin with a fellblade) save at least 1-2 dispel dice if your going against a grey seer/eshin list chances are it can save you the game

plague: gorks warpath but with toughness tests enough said


if your able to play on skavens inept weaknesses of needing ranks to keep leadership and the diffrences between killer and staying units and keep those numbers tame it will be a  cakewalk


and one of the most improtant things

skaven can shoot into their combats the only way to be safe from their ranged weapons is to either kill them or make sure they cant see you

a favored tactic is to flee when charged remember they lose their leadership bonus through ranks when they do this so itll only relly do with cheap expendable slaves that dont cause tests for the rest of their army ignore these as much as possible its the clanrats your after

a sneaky act a skaven player will do is use death frenzy on his slaves.
They get a bunch of attacks, you actually don't want as an opponent.
They fear nothing anymore.
And they won't run, so they are just in the way.
And that for about 60 points and a spell

Here is an old Skaven Article I wrote a few years ago for a writing contest:


There has been lots of talk recently about the Skaven army being overpowered and in need of a revision.  The purpose of this article is to take a more specific, detailed inside look at one phase of the game and further examine and equip the reader to make a their own decision to whether these claims are applicable.  The phase is: The Magic Phase *lightning bolts and women screaming*.

Let’s first take a look at the three typical skaven magic users. 

First up is the Grey Seer, the chittering master spell caster of the Skaven under-empire.  He is favored by The Great Horned Rat  *reverent pause* and granted the privilege to manipulate the winds of magic to form unique skaven spells.  Due to the unimaginable competition to become a Grey Seer, they are seen in battle in only one variety, level 4.  Twisted and bent on the will of The Great Horned Rat *reverent pause*, they carry with them 4 warpstone chunks.  These chunks can be consumed by the spell caster to grant them an additional power die when casting a spell, but with some drawbacks.  (They cannot exceed the number of power die they can throw, like you can with a power stone)  If the warpstone power die comes up as a 1, they take a wound with no armor saves (ward and regeneration apply).  A player can purchase additional warpstone tokens, but it will cost them a measly 10 points, therefore equating to the Grey Seer coming with 40 points worth of free magical items. 

One consideration all Skaven generals have to make is the fact that Grey Seers only have a leadership of 6, meaning your army will most likely have a leadership of 9 instead of the 10 that a Warlord can give you.  It’s a tough choice; I don’t know how we deal with it. *chitter*

The next caster to be examined is the Warlock Engineer.  Warlock engineers are initially purchased as a 0.5 caster.  These little buggars are the heads of the skyre machinery.  They are in charge of keeping them in working condition and in tip-top shape.  So when your warplightning cannon or ratling guns misfire they are the ones to blame.  Putting that aside though, this tech-caster has the option to buy many non-magical upgrades for his personage.  Each upgrade further enhances the Warlock Engineer’s abilities.  The three items are: warp-blades, supercharged warp-power accumulator, and an upgraded warp energy condenser.  The blades allow the warlock engineer to cast the warp lightning spell, the accumulator generates an additional power die for the casting pool, and the condenser allows him the ability to cast with 3 power dice.  The combination of these three items equates to a 1.5 level caster, which for all intents and purposes is a level 2 caster.  At 85 points this isn’t all that expensive.  Furthermore, the warp-blades give the Warlock Engineer the ability to cast the warplightning spell at either a 5+ (1d6) or a 9+ (2d6) power level.  All Warlock Engineers come with a single warpstone token.

Lastly, the third and most rare form of caster is the Plague Priest given the magical item Liber Bubonicus.  This magical item turns the Plague Priest hero into a level 1 caster that only knows the spell pestilence breath.  Since he is not a natural spell caster he does not come with a warpstone token.

Now from these 3 choices you can glean a few things right off the bat.  One argument could be made that the skaven get screwed with character choices for their magic.  They can only take a level 4 caster, quite an investment and their supporting casters can only ever know 1 spell that can only be cast once AND can kill the caster.  Therefore, if you want to use the popular and powerful skaven magic list you must take a Grey Seer.  Another thing to note is that Skaven only score an irresistible force when the total of their casting roll is a 13, the sacred number of The Great Horned Rat *reverent pause*.  Therefore, if you throw just 2 dice to cast a spell, you have 0 chance of an irresistible force.

In rebuttal to that, the Grey Seer is cheap.  He is 235 points, but that includes 40 points of magical items.  Furthermore, the option not to have a level 3 caster is not a big deal.  Level 3 casters are rarely seen in the Warhammer world to begin with, so the option not to have one is not missed.  Furthermore, the spell the Warlock Engineer receives is one of the most devastating spells in the game and the fact that the skaven who are unpredictable and unreliable can choose to take a caster where they know for a fact what they will be getting doesn’t seem to make much sense.  As a character the techno magic is unique and fun, but in the spirit of the skaven army it is probably too reliable.  Also, the majority of the skaven spells have the best chance at being cast using 3-4 dice, which is right in the range where the skaven irresistible force score of 13 is most effective.

# of Die – Skaven IF Chance : Normal IF Chance
     1      –               0%         :         0%
     2      –               0%         :        2.78%
     3      –            9.73%       :        7.41%
     4      –            6.47%       :       13.2%

Lets start to take a spell by spell look through the unique skaven spell list.  Grey Seers can only take this list.

Skitterleap (casting level : 3+ )  -  This spell will move any character (including the spell caster) with in 8” inches anywhere on the board.  This spell may seem like a poor default spell, but it can be worth its weight in gold.  It’s cheap and it allows you to do some of the following.

• Contest table quarters on the last round of the game
• Leave combat before that mage killer has a chance to whack you
• Move a character behind enemy lines on turn 1, preventing them from marching
• Place yourself in a tactical position for other skaven spells discussed below.

This spell is situational, but useful.

Warp Lightning (casting level 5+/9+) – The caster can choose which level he is going to cast this spell.  This spell does 1d6 (5+) or 2d6 (9+) strength 5 hits with a 24 inch range.  Let me repeat that, strength five hits.  When rolling for the number of hits, if a 1 is rolled the caster takes a wound with no armor saves.  This must be remembered for game balance, and you will loose characters to it, its especially depressing when you roll snake eyes killing the two wound engineer.

At strength 2d6 str 5 hits, this is one of the most powerful magic missile spells in the game.  Just imagine two non-scythed heavy chariots ramming you in the magic phase.  If I could choose one spell for any of my casters to know for every battle it would be this spell…fortunately I get my wish with my warlock engineers.

The beauty of this spell is if you take 2 fully tooled warlock engineers with no other casters.  I can cast this spell twice with 3 dice at power level 9 with since I generate 6 dice.  By throwing 3 dice I have given myself a 75% chance of casting the spell with an average result of an 11.  With an average of 4-5 dispel die chances are I will get one of the spells through.  Here comes 2d6 strength 5 hits,  that should make just about any opponent cringe.  Furthermore, if you recall, throwing 3 dice allows for the best possibility of rolling an irresistible force.

Lastly, the fact that skaven can cast magic missiles into combat makes this spell even more effective since you’ll never find yourself in a position where you have no targets.

Vermintide (casting level 7+) – I think the developers though this spell would be cooler than it is.  For me, it has never panned out.  When the caster casts this spell the large template is placed in front of him.  It them moves forward 4d6 inches.  Every unit it hits takes 3d6 strength 2 hits.  With the possibility of mass damage, the strength 2 usually is enough to keep the casualties down.  The fact that it can hit multiple units is very nice however.

Pestilence Breath (casting level 9+) – This spell is a short range spell.  You place the flame template anywhere on the caster and all models under the template are hit with a strength 3 attack allowing no armor save.  This spell is fantastic in combination with skitterleap. 

Death Frenzy (casting level 10+) – This spell can be cast on any of your skaven units within 24 inches, immediately stirring them into a frenzy.  If the unit is already frenzied, then they enter into a state known as death frenzy where they gain an additional attack, but every turn the unit takes d3 wounds.  This spell has 2 excellent applications.  First, it makes the unit immune to psychology, so no panic tests and no fear/terror tests.  Secondly, cast on rat ogres or clanrats with spears and you can achieve an awing amount of attacks, surely to overwhelm just about any foe.  The d3 wounds is usually not an issue with 30+ clanrats and, however frenzy is a tactical liability that should be taken into account.

Finally, the apex spell:

Plague (casting level 13 +)  - This spell is simply devastating.  Its very expensive and only has an 18 inch range, but when cast it requires every model (including characters) in the unit to take a toughness test.  If they score above their toughness, they take a wound with no armor saves allowed. If a single wound is scored there is a 1/3 chance the spell will spread to another unit of your choice. 


Tools for Magical Domination

Screaming Bell (upgrade for Grey Seer) – This nifty little upgrade has many upsides, but one major downside.  First the upsides, it provides the Grey Seer riding it two additional power dice for his disposal.  It gives the unit pushing it (Stormvermin or clanrats only) a magic resistance of two.  It has a 3+ ward save to both shooting and close combat.  It allows the Grey Seer 360 degree line of sight even when the unit is engaged in combat, and all spells can be measured from anywhere on the carriage.  When charging it causes impact hits, although just a d6 worth, and its US6 really helps beef up unit strength for outnumbering.  Finally, in the shooting phase the tolls from the bell are all pretty good, especially if you have a combat oriented skaven army.  The downside is that it is a large target and a chariot.  It is easy to hit and even easier to destroy with a single strength 7 blow…even with a 3+ ward save.  This sacred artifact should probably be brought out for special occasions and only in battles that are more than 2000 points.

Warpstone Tokens  – Extra power die, if you roll a one caster takes a wound

Eye of the Horned Rat – At the beginning o f the power phase roll a d6.  If you roll a 2-6 you gain an extra power die, if you roll a 1 you lose a power die.

Storm Daemon  -  Power level 4, this casts the warplightning spell at 1d6 strength 5 hits.  Wonderful for draining dispel dice or doing wounds before you can miscast.  This item exhausts on a roll of a one after it is used.  This is a must have item as it is cheap with a decent power level and boosts your magic phase significantly.

Warp Scroll - Power Level 5, every model in one unit within 24 inches takes a strength 3 hit.  One use only.

Warpstorm Scroll -  Power Level 5, all flying units within 24 inches take d6 strength 6 hits.  One use only.

Warpstone charm – Player may re-roll one die during the course of the game which may cancel miscasts or cause irresistible force.

You have probably noticed that almost all the quirks that the skaven have in their magic phase are for better offensive effect.  They have no items that give them more dispel dice, or take away opponents power dice.  They leave that to the timid elven magic users.  Skaven are a no-holds-barred offensively oriented magic army that can honesty go toe-to-claw with any army out there. 

The combination of cheap level 2, and level 4 magic users with warpstone tokens allows them to have enough power dice to cast as many spells as you want when you want.  Tactically when your opponent sees you have no more power dice and uses the rest of his dispel dice only to have you use 4 warpstone tokens on a plague spell is very powerful.  As well as placing 4 dice beside your power dice and counting them before you cast your final spell, allowing you to make your opponent rethink his dispel options.

I’ll leave the final decision up to you, the reader, to whether or not Skaven are over powered.  Personally, I think some things could be adjusted, but who am I to question the will of The Great Horned Rat. 

Put a butcher with the Brahmir Statue in a unit of Iron Guts along with your Tyrant equipped with Daemon-Killer scars. Terror at -3Ld = game over Vs Eshin.

The Ratling gun has a 14" or15" range and Ld 5 or 6 and is move or shoot. Your Braingobbler strikes down with great vengeance at -3Ld from 18" from the above unit so there is no excuse for getting shot by it. 1 or 2 ratling guns could erase any ogre unit (don't forget they are auto-hit S4 armour piercing I fought a guy who fired 14 shots from one ratling gun 2 turns in a row).

Don't forget your standard and lookout gnoblar because of the warp-lightning.

Against all those large blocks of T3 rats the Scraplauncher must be worth considering.

I'm yet to take my ogres onto the battlefield, but with two+ years of playing Skaven I think lets me add my thoughts here...

-Leadbelchers look like gold. The most common flanking unit in a Skaven army is night runners, followed by giant rats. A big unit of giant rats, a master moulder and skavenbrew might be able to challenge a unit of leadbelchers, as might a sufficiently large unit of rat ogres, but neither of them is terribly common outside themed moulder-heavy lists and leadbelcher cannons will be able to cause a serious dent in both. Three leadbelchers are also quite a lot cheaper than either of the above two units.

Against straight up giant rats or night runners, your charge range is sufficient to stop them fleeing (as they probably will) and the cannons will be able to pepper them if they do.

-Gorgers, two if possible. Any holes in the Skaven battle line are a huge problem, and a pair of gorgers can get an easy flank of rear charge. Remember that if Skaven ranks are broken, they lose their shiney Ld bonus and clanrats have a base Ld of 5. Also, Leadership batteries like warlords tend to hide in rear ranks so as to avoid harm. A nasty S5 killing blow monster attacking (and likely killing. characters hiding in rear ranks aren't often the most heavily equipped) removes its leadership, as well as the rank and leadership bonus. Also, in one word, unbreakable (see maneaters' entry).

-Yhetees. Better flankers than anything in the Skaven army? Check. Very good at getting flank charges and removing Strength in Numbers? Check. Rank negation=good. Controlling flank=good. Got it?

-Maneaters. Most Skaven armies rely on combat resolution, not casualties, to win combats. As a Skaven player, I avoid tough, stubborn units like the plague. The same applies to gorgers, especially since they can charge in areas not regularly frequented by combat characters.

-Leadership. As has been said, poor leadership is the skaven army's bane. So you've removed their ranks and characters, what further can you do? Braingobbler, Skullmantle, Brahmir Statue, Daemon-Killer Scars...

Keep them rolling those Ld checks and eventually something's gotta give. Also, try to isolate units away from the general. Picking Skaven units off one-by-one isn't exactly a terribly efficient way of doing things, but, just to ram the point home...GET THEIR LEADERSHIP.

Thank you. I'm here 'til Wednesday.

Poly
Out

-Leadbelchers look like gold....

-Gorgers, two if possible. Any holes in the Skaven battle line are a huge problem, and a pair of gorgers can get an easy flank of rear charge. Remember that if Skaven ranks are broken, they lose their shiney Ld bonus and clanrats have a base Ld of 5...

-Yhetees. Better flankers than anything in the Skaven army? Check. Very good at getting flank charges and removing Strength in Numbers? Check. Rank negation=good. Controlling flank=good. Got it?

-Maneaters. Most Skaven armies rely on combat resolution, not casualties, to win combats. As a Skaven player, I avoid tough, stubborn units like the plague. The same applies to gorgers, especially since they can charge in areas not regularly frequented by combat characters.

-Leadership. As has been said, poor leadership is the skaven army's bane. So you've removed their ranks and characters, what further can you do? Braingobbler, Skullmantle, Brahmir Statue, Daemon-Killer Scars...

Leadbelchers look like gold but they are not.  They can be very effective but 1 or 2 misfires just when you need them the most will put paid to a very expensive ogre unit.  As mentioned earlier tho', Scrappies are legendary.  2 Scrappies firing into densely packed troops with a Tgh 3 is what the Gnoblars dream about after late night cheese-eating contests.

Gorgers will not give you a flank or rear charge.  They are US4, cannot form units and do not negate ranks.  Having said that, take a minimum of two and conduct pairs fire and manoeuvre against the jezzails, warp lightning cannon, etc.  They must be used very carefully because Ogres are a very small army.  The Skaven general will think nothing of turning 2 or 3 warmachines (jezzails, ratling guns, plague censer bearers, poison wind globadiers, etc) on the gorgers for a turn and letting 3 or 4 warp lightning spells rape your ogre units! 

On that subject, be prepared to lose a big unit or 2 small units a turn to warp lightning. The Rune Maw banner with your heaviest hitting unit is essential.  Get a large unit of Gnoblar fighters running/bickering alongside to take the hits.  It's the best banner we have.

I rarely use Yhetees so I cannot really comment, but I would use them against night runners, frenzied monk rats and the like.  It is highly unlikely that you will get the flanks of any of the main force.  My regular (weekly) Skaven opponent usually fields between 220 and 270 rats on the battlefield in a 2000pt game!  Personally, I think that Yhetees and Maneaters are way way too expensive for a 2000pt game and just attract jezzail and warp lightning fire like warpstone magnets.

Leadership is key and of course the brahmir statue and daemon killer scars are invaluable. With them on a Tyrant fielded with a Butcher in the same unit firing Bone Cruncha and Brain Gobbla to force -3 Ld Panic checks, the unit may never see combat.  BSB with the RuneMaw banner and a look out gnoblar to provide magical survivability is good enough to see a lot of failed Terror tests.

However, earlier someone poohpoohed Skaven Leadership.  Don't.  The Skaven warlord and their ranks can give a lot a units Ld 9 or 10.  That is considerably higher than most of the Ogre units.  A good Skaven general will rarely have units of less than 21-27 and it can take time to whittle those ranks down.  Given that it is exceptionally difficult to get a flank/rear and negate the charge, they may well start with a static CR of 5 (SB, ranks, outnumber).  A lone unit of 3-4 bulls is going to find that hard to compete with.  Even 3-4 Ironguts will struggle.  Don't laugh. 

Our main downfall is WS3. 4 IG have 12 attks needing 4s.  That is an average of 6 hits wounding on 2's.  Want to bet you won't roll at least one 1?  The odds are that you will, resulting in 5 dead rats.  Did you buy a bellower? Because if you didn't, I guarantee that Skaven did and that is the IG beaten by 1 on Combat Res!  The odds of being beaten in combat rise dramatically for bulls. 

You absolutely must support your attacks.  If you know you are going against rats then these are a must:

Brahmir statue (and if you can give the skullmantle to someone, that too for an extra -1 Ld)
Daemonkiller scars
Standards and bellowers (and I'm usually a massive believer that these are a waste of points)
Larger than usual MSU
Scraplaunchers

But if you really want a laugh, take Skrag.

Skrag with a Butcher (Brahmir Statue, Thiefstone, 2 TGnoblars) in a unit of 4 Ironguts with the Rune Maw, LoGnoblar and bellower

3 Bulls (XHW and Bellower) (The XHW to maximise attacks when they go in to support)
3 Bulls (XHW and Bellower)
3 Bulls (XHW and Bellower) (the bulls are for 2 reasons - support and to get the GnobFighters and Scrappies)

2 Scraplaunchers

25 Gnoblar Fighters
25 Gnoblar Fighters
25 Gnoblar Fighters (These guys give you +3 or 4 to CR - ranks & outnumber - we don't care if they run away, they block holes in our battleline, they can take hits from the Rune Maw banner and they can contest/claim quarters for 50pts. What's not to like?)

4 Gorgers (you should get 2 on a turn - if you are lucky they may all turn up or none of them - remember, they work best as a team, splitting the enemy's fire. If only one comes on the table then try and position him to survive until others arrive.  I would risk one hunting down a warp lightning cannon though. It stands a good chance of surviving a hit from one.)

(I make that 2000pts)

Remember,  This is a smallish army but it has 8 PD, 5 DD and 108 models. You are going to need some luck and tactics to win this. Starting from the terrain set up.

Make sure (if you can) that 1 or none of the deployment areas will have hills.  If he puts his jezzails on a hill you are screwed.) If you win the roll for sides take the hill.
Deploy your army as far onto the table as you can.  If he gets the first turn, some of your army is going to be running. Pray they stay on.

Only charge if you have support - or if you think that Skrag and his unit will carry the day.  They usually will.  Don't forget that Scraplaunchers have impact hits and an angry rhinox.  Against rats, it is capable of 15 wounds! Average of 6 or 7.

You are not going to win the magic phase - you just have to survive it.  Using Braingobbla on a night runner unit or similar to run through jezzails and panic them off the board is hilarious at -3 Ld.

Concentrate Scrappies on these units in order: Jezzails; densely-packed large units outside the general's leadership range; the general's unit.

Kill them. Kill them all.  Rarely gonna happen.  There are just too many of them. 
The sooner Skrag is in combat the better. For him and the gorgers!

Enjoy. It's a game!

Ugg

They are US4, cannot form units and do not negate ranks.

Really? At my club we've always played it that two seperate understrength units can combine to break ranks. i.e. a US4 unit and a US2 unit both charge the same flank, which breaks it. Mayhap we've misread something...

I agree with most of your comments, although it seems that your main Skaven opponent is rather magic/shooting heavy yes? My 2000 army has about 320 models, but no jezzails or weapon teams, and only one warlock engineer (full kit, storm daemon, dispell scroll) and most of my comments were geared in the general direction of a more hord-ey Skaven army. However yours are entirely more relevant in the context of a more shooting based. I'm done.

...

*flees*

Also, another thing I've remembered, is (against a horde) try to choose the side with the least terrain. The more terrain on the horde player's side, the less space they have to deploy which tends to them not deploying terribly well. Not a huge tip, but handy if the situation arises.

Poly
Out

That list you got is great. You should add some more yettes in there. In case if you get into a field. That slows your other units down not the yette.

The warp lightning cannon is deep in the woods, not on the edge. The gun itself can see and fire through woods thanks to its special rules. I have to enter the forrest first, then next turn I can see him and charge (after taking another blast from the thing).

Oh i didn't know you could do that with the warp lightning cannon.
Dosn't it need LOS to shoot.

No, it just draws a line and everything under it gets hit.

The beauty of the warplightning cannon is that although it can do horrendous damage (particularly to ogres with its d6 wounds), and it can see through anything except truly solid obsticles like hills or buildings, it does have a very bad misfire chart which almost always results in the weapon being damaged, or having the potential to blast your own troops.

The rule that it has to flee as a charge reaction doesnt really help when its vurtualy impossible to charge it without getting blasted at least twice. Anyway, he has stopped using two of them for now due to their rather self destructive nature.

Yeah, one on each flank can make even the best general have doubts about how the battle can go. If they are in the forest they dont need line of sight. They simply draw a line until they contact something like a hill or building.
I play Eshin, and I just want to say that if you let me skitterleap my master assassin you will be losing one of your HQ's. Probably a butcher first. Then Ill run around behind with my 14" charge hitting bull units in the no no.
My other assassin will run up to one of your flanks and try to warpstone star some of your leadbelchers. (who you can also kiss good bye) The sorcorers have 2 dislep scrolls so no brain gobbler for you and just expect the other one to release a good ole warp scroll on the most "threatening" (haha!) gnoblar unit. ( 2d6 s3 hits)
From there the jezzails will concentrate on some ironguts/maneaters while my triad goes to combat some 3 ogre bull squads...

warpscroll isnt 2D6, but every model in the unit takes a S3 hit

as for eshin, it is now an alternative list, and not universally legal (the skitterleaping assassin lords with fellblades into combat might be one of the causes :/)

as for WLCs ... 2 of them can and will wreck havoc, their misfire chart is better than a cannon's actually. they have 1/3 chances of destroying themselves, the blast template will not do much to them (and they shouldnt be too near units, if anything its 5 skaven) and the S10 random direction I have seen take down DPs and black coaches (there too no skavne player cares about loosing 10 models).

So even if it has 1/3 chances of dying, it still has 1/3 chances of shooting hard (though random direction ... still good) and will always shoot on the next turn

2 of them are very reliable, as only hills/buildings will cut LOS, and against ogres they rule

gorger should do well, as the WLC has random strength and D6 wounds the gorger has fair chances of surviving one shot

terror causers are beautiful against it, so are trappers (if it is in a wood but ungarded, which can happen ... if anything 8 trappers have decent chances against 5 night runners)

as for the basic skaven units, 2 ogres on the flanc of his battleline mean game over (but it will be hard to do against a good skaven player) and using the outnumbering far causers should work (very few skaven units are immune to fear, namely the BSB's unit can be, the pestilens if they havent lost combat, and the unit with the bell if there is one)

Hmmm Eshin, well I've had mixed results against them. The first time I played I got beaten quite badly, and the second I walked all over his ratty corpse. After skitterleaping the master into my tyrrant the yhetee cloak and wierdstone amulet saved him, and the tenderiser gave the assasin a birds eye view of the battlefield, the second assasin had even less luck when he failed to get off his bands of power and the butcher smeared him with the siegebreaker. Eshin are good for attempting to outmaneuver the ogres, but in some cases they can suffer from fear, and the fact that skirmishers are now march blocked is a bit of a kick in the pills to the whole army. The pro of eshin is their ability to swamp units one at a time, knock off characters, and units like jezzails can cause a bit of a fuss (wounding easily, but armour saves are non existant in most cases, and they still only cause one wound each I think?). The counter argument is that ogre units can really plow through the no armour save eshin as long as they get decent rolls to hit, and with fear, terror and panic it can get a little nasty.

I don't think either side is really advantaged, but the warplightning gun is one of the only things that really scares me in any of the skaven lists, because I will have to sacrifice something to get it (except maybe trappers, but its funny when they die).

First:
Gorgers are US3
Second:
You need a unit of US5 to break ranks, so not to units of 3 or some other calculation.

Skrag and a butcher are too little magic if you play against a Skaven army ( even with moderate magic)
And for the rest of the list:
Rattling guns get shots at your bulls and Skrag ( or gorgers.)
Jezzails shoot Skrag to pieces
Magic will kill your bulls and eventually gorgers.
plague and other spells will get rid of the gnoblars and 13 on the bell will have half of your army running.
Sent slaves frenzied into you gnoblars and they will win the battle.
Scrappies might do the trick, but a warp lightning cannon can kill both of them in one go ( when lucky)
The bell unit is ItP and can even cause terror (let's see if you make your fear test)
The problem with a Skaven magic army is that they still have Ld 9 for most units and that is as good as any army with a lord choice wizard.

I'd like the bring the point up again, but can we take into consideration that not every Skaven army on the planet is over the top SAD? Hell, if a SAD list gets posted over on the Underempire the membership tends to get up in arms to convince the player to change it. Most Skaven players will have two warlock engineers and a storm daemon, but from experience it seems that most also choose a warlord instead of a seer and ratling guns are really quite a rare sight, especially in the 7th edition.

Just saying, that if you go to tackle a Skaven army thinking of it in this way, 9 times out of 10 you will be disappointed.

Just saying, that if you go to tackle a Skaven army thinking of it in this way, 9 times out of 10 you will be disappointed.

I think the Underempire may be a little disingenuous. 9 times in 10 a successful Skaven general will field horde or SAD.  SAD was far and away the most popular Skaven runout at the Notts GTs this year.

Ugg

And the Unerempire's tendency to persuade players against SADs is probably due to the bad rep skaven players have for taking SADs, and they want to change that.

Now i'm sad, because I don't know what a SAD is!
and say what you like, a rattling gun will plow through almost everything in range
So...  you need to make THEM panic!of course they can use the Ld of their parent unit....

Its a good shot, if you use that -3 ld thingy-mabob. Ogres are almost built for killing skaven. I mean, they cause fear, have spells to make you panic, -3 ld! (its not even funny....    for them, anyway). Just Field a Beast Killer , to make sure him and the 'Guts charge in! and not run off (again!)

I'm a skaven player myself, and I wouldn't even think before fielding 16-20 Jazzails, 2 warp lightning cannons, as many globadiers as you can shake a club at, 2 units of AT LEAST 30 clanrats, with rattling guns, 35 plague monks for charging head on in and stealing yer d3 impact hits, 2-3 engineers, a hand full of Gutter Runners for flanking or taking table edges, a Grey seer with alot of evil trinkets, and about 25 storm vermin with a warp lightning thrower to boot!
It really does spell doom for the bulls, but when the remaining bulls get there, (with no rat ogres) they'll kill soooo much before getting gunned down. Yes, IN combat (you can't hide anywhere!)

Think you could take it on? I couldn't... (poor Ironguts, or whats left of them)

SAD = Skyre Army of Doom, Shooty Army of Doom.

It usually means rolling a lot of dice and just shooting/magicking the hell out of the opponent. I thank the dice Gods I haven't faced one yet.

against skaven: hellheart, hunter, and wyrdstone necklace, gnoblar thiefstones...

I tend to kill rattling guns with spells.

Charge the warp lightning cannons ASAP with bulls or Gnoblars even.

Gnoblar trappers to get in the face of the Jezzails even to screen other troops while shooting at them.

Well I just got wooped by a Skaven shooty Gun line and must say didn't enjoy the game at all.

My opponent had 3 mages, 3 rattling guns, 2X 10 jezzails, 2 warp fire cannons, 3 units clan rats and all this at 1500pts.

The 2 units that actually made it to combat did ok, but I lost badly.

Scrap launcher was hit by a Str 8 hit on turn 1.

i play against skaven on a reg basis but we both use our tournament lists (so we cant build just to kill each other) he used to massacre me way way bad every time we played what he brings is 3 units of slaves 3 units of clan rats 3 ratling guns a cannon, 2 warplock engineers, and a fighter lord, and a bsb(with the storm banner) he does extremely well with his skaven oh and then he also brings gutter runners 1 block of plague monks and then a cuple of the other skirmish units last time we played i figured out that if u leave one flank completly open then sometimes it can be a god thing especially against them i field an msu army with only 1 butcher (i wont he last rogue trader im so proud of myself first time i did so good) i learned that my yettees r way frieken awesome they did a great job getting flanks and then my gorgers did a great job at killing his characters (except his lord i couldnt get to him in time) but he got a solid on me because of his magic and shooty(his cannon took out almost 3 full units 2 bulls and one irongut) it sucked way bad he got real lucky rolls but yeah skaven fall preay if u make them have to tunnel in at u so they cant get the better flanks and if u avoid a flank its great

if you play a 3000k game against them dont overlook the possability of a slaughtermaster/skullmantle/brahmir statue and a tyrant with daemon killer scars in the same unit. Also you can combine both the mantle and the statue for - 4 Ld with Braingobler as well which would bring skaven units down to Ld 2 or 3 Ld on there panic test!

Anyone played the new Skaven?

I'm only running a 500pt list so what I say is only including what I've used at that point level.

My current list is:

Chieftain
Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Foul Pendant, and Portents of Verminous Doom
99pts

Warlock Engineer
Warpmusket, Warlock Optics
50pts

24 Clanrats
Standard, Musician, Shields
108pts

20 Slaves
40pts

2 Rat Ogres
Master-Bred, Skweel Gnawtooth
203pts

Total: 500pts

My thoughts are that Skweel in a unit of Rat Ogres is just plain nasty. Automatically, they will have either:
a) Regen (Regen Rat Ogres = Disgustingly Awesome)
b) Poison Attacks (Meh)
c) +1 Attack (5 attacks per Ogre and an extra for Champ)
Not to mention he has a magic weapon that causes double wounds and ignores Armour Saves. And only 100pt upgrade! I'm taking him 80% of my lists, that's how good he is.

40pt exploding slaves are lots of fun, especially against small units. MSU is screwed there.

Engineer can take some wounds off you, seeing as he is BS4 and can shoot through obsticles with no penalty (take that DE camping sorceroress!).

If you lose by one to my Chieftain's unit, you are taking a break test at -2. If you lose by more, well, it gets worse.

The scary thing is that Doomwheels and Aboms are easily takable in 500pt fights, the Doomwheel more so, which is scarier for you Ogres. Aboms are meant for taking out units of knights and infantry, but not ogres really... Doomwheels will turn your units into swiss cheese with its Zzzzap! shots, as they inflict D6 wounds per shot!

All in all, things that are good against most enemies, lose effectiveness against Ogres. Weird huh?

-Evii

D6 wounds per shot? As in, say, 5 hits, then 3 wounds, and then 3D6 wounds?

Doomwheels get 3 shots at Artillery Strength. For each unsaved wound, it is multiplied into D6.

ie. Doomwheel fires off 3 shots at 3 Maneaters. I roll Artillery and get a 10. I roll the dice and get 2 wounds. I roll a D6 for each wound. I get a 2 and a 6. One of your Maneaters die and another is on 1 wound.

-Evii

that sounds like 2 maneaters would die, and one would be at one wound

Nope because only got "two" wounds, which are multiplied. One Maneater isn't going to die because the guy next to him exploded particularly messily.

-Evii

Following this thrad is just plain confusing. Evii, you and your ratsies are just talking rubbish-rubbish

JJ

Ah! your right, I forget that you can't cause more wounds that way! Then your quite right

But the tenderizer causes more wounds that way?

Well, the tenderizer does d3 wounds, while the lightning does d6, and so is also capped at d3 wounds against 3 wound models.

well, yeah - but when scoring 2 wounds with one dice, and 1 wound with another dice using the tenderizer, one model goes away if fighting ogres?

Yeah, the wounds carry through multi-wound models, you just can't do more wounds with a single hit then the models have max. of course a 1d6 wound weapon has more chance of causing the maximum 3 wounds obviously.

So, say i am fighting flesh hounds, get 2 hits, both hits gets 3 wounds, i dont kill 3 dogs? Only the 2 i actually hit?

You would cause a maximum of 2 wounds with each hit in that case.

The Thundermace is STILL 4(, the 1d6 is only on the Str8 hit under the hole, and they now get armor saves. Even so on average you will kill about 10 rats if you hit. That strips a rank off a horde or two off a 5 wide formation. That helps get them away from steadfast and maybe even Strength in Numbers.

I am liking that!

remember disrupted units don't get ranks = no strength in numbers.

K

my friend runs a fluffy plague army.
40 plaguemonks plaguefurnace
x2 10 censer bearers
A Spell that makes me t3

i have played and lost twice

i got flogged at 2000pts with a 3 char and 15 bull deathstar + a 12 irongut unit
i got beaten running mmu at 1500 but by less.

what do i do

ps people playing skaven for the 1st time DONT UNDERESTIMATE THEIR LD
i didnt think slaves would be ld 9 w reroll

IMO there is no such thing as a fluffy rat list.  That is has frenzy everywhere, and is either unbreakable until the furnace  dies, or is a glass cannon that will shatter a unit when it gets there. 

If I remember right the Censer Bearers require every model in the arch touching the unit to make a toughness check or take a wound, the Censer Bearers also take a test with only 6s failing though.  Against Ogres not bad...  They are frenzied and do a D3 attacks, at WS4 or 5.  They are Str +2 for flails the first turn making them str 5 I believe, and are pretty low investment i points.  At least now in 8th ed, they are not allowed to snake through their own units and have to maintain a formation even though they are skirmishers.   If they get a head of their main unit, and crash into the most deadly unit, at that point cost... you are sunk with Ogres. 

Your friend is pulling the wool over your eyes imo, or trying to justify why rats are not  cheesy.



Look at it from any angle you want, you can change up styles and tactics to fit a new way to play rats.  They have some of the best bunker units, spells, and siege in the game.  It is hard for any army to outnumber them, and their super cheap troops are equal stat wise to many other armies....  I will stop before I start to compare Beastmen to them lol



The best way I see to beat them though is what someone else said, and here is the math hammer on it...

Thundermace +55 points so only a Tyrant can use sadly.  1 swing you drop a Stonethrower's template on the unit, it can be placed anywhere as long as it is touching the tyrant.  If it touches a friendly model it will not wound them, but every enemy model is hit with a 4/8 strength hit, and I believe the d6 wounds still apply.  The str might be 3/9 now, but it does state in the ogre book the attack is, "like a direct hit from a 4/8 Stonethrower."

So against hordes/bunker units, which is the largest concern for being mobile in early rounds for sure, being able to have the ability to cut them in half is huge.   A tyrant has 5 attacks and the stonethrower template can hit up to 20, that sounds like a lot, but it is not quite as awesome as it sounds.

Str 5 or 7 with a great weapon the tyrant has 5 attacks hits 3 times on average against WS 3 or 4 troops types, and should would 2 to 3 times on average.  So the Tyrant with a normal weapon of great weapon will add on normal 2 to 3 CR to the fight.  However, his absolute max is 5 without a 2nd hand weapon.

With the Thundermace 1 attack at str 3 basically you still have to hit, and you have to use the highest value in the unit that you are in contact with.  This means you normally need a 4 to hit, due to a BSB or other melee, and you only 50% of the time, which can be critical at times but if you are knocking them into steadfast anyways....  If you hit though you are normally hitting 20 (20mm) bases and something like 13 (25mm) bases, and wounds 66% or 50% of the time against t3 models.  Most Hordes are t3, so it is safe to use that as a general rule.  So I will cut in half the number you hit, so the wounds equal an average.  10, and 7, if you are wounding 66 or 50% that is 7 to 5 on (20mm) bases and 4 to 3 on (25mm) bases.   

That means on average you are doing the same as if you played it safe and went with a normal attack.  The point I am making is, that normally you are knocking them into steadfast, so why not have the chance to take a rank or two out with this attack rather than limit yourself to never being able to do so.

I am not being exact on the percents, but I think the point is the same in this simple English.  I love a tyrant causing fear in the opponent with a 4+ ward save, and a Thundermace.

nope no wool on these eyes...
hes had that army theme scince late 6th ed
he plays them for theme, but yes i do get owned.
ps cencer bearers are ws 3.

I would agree with theme'd, but I still do not see fluffly heh....



Anyways, I played against a Skaven list at the GT I went to  a week or so ago, it was not the super hard one that everyone was griping about, but it was a ton of models.   One everyone was griping about was 2 doomwheels, and 2 A-Bombs, with 4 large 50+ units of clanrats, and 2 50+ units of slaves.  He would lock you in place and flank charge you with one of his 4 hammers.  He won all 5 games with a massacre.

The army I played against was 2 units of 50 slaves, 2 units of 50 clanrats, 1 unit of monks 50, and a unit of 30 monks with a furnace.  He also have a catapult that was plague of some sort, and one unit upgrade plague catapult type thing too, he had an A-Bomb, 9 censer bearers, and 8 gutter runners.  He did the typical thing of launching into his slaves, and weakening those units so that slaves could hold better or even win.  He clanrats were there to wear you down and kill you once your numbers got low.  His furnace unit and his A-Bomb was his hammer units, but they suffer they got sucked out early and were out of position.


So I was outnumbered more than 6 to 1 with my 47 model army. lol

I had some bad luck in this fight, but I am ok with it, yes it cost me over all, but I ran pretty good prior to that so I am cool.  Bad luck I had was a misfire on my scrappy which died first turn, and my general suffered badly... I missed with the Thundermace my first attack had to run, got away and rallied, then I hit him the 2nd time and rolled a 1 on the already wounded Furnace which ended up being what took me out in the end.  So his priest was dead, the furnace was down to like 2 wounds, and he had 5 monks left in the unit.  The only thing I had to do to get a ton of points was kill 5 monks and 2 wounds on the furnace.

Clanrats and slaves have real issues hurting us in any sort of way, they do it with bunches and bunches, if you have a bruiser or a tyrant there, do not worry you will come out a head more times than not.  However, you must take out their BSB and any hero type in the units if you can.  I found it wise to not offer a challenge and to just split, my attacks into them while they stand in the front rank.

Butchers can be dragged down by them and should avoid spending the many rounds you will probably be locked in combat and stay out of the units when possible since there little difference in needing 5s or 6s to wound. 

The A-Bomb died in a single round to my Ironguts, and because I charged him I overran into two of his units the slaves and larger unit of monks.  My Ironguts with two Butchers in it, since I figured he would run more than not, killed the slaves quickly and killed but like 5 or 6 of the monks in by the 3rd turn.  I did lose 9 models one being my butcher due to these rats.  Sadly fleeing units do not count until they flee off the board for VP, or that monk unit would have been a ton of points.

Tactics I used to disrupt his tactics were to not charge with my outer units.  I kept them at odd angles so that when he charged they would be so long that it cut off paths for him to move around with in his back field.  I also sent my scouts out to draw out his mobile units like his censer bearers, so they never hit a unit worth anything.  If those would have hit a unit of bulls in the flank, while I was fighting other things I would have ben crumpled up into a ball I am sure.  I also made sure that his Furnace could not flank me, there was one piece of impassible terrain, and it was on my flank.  If can use terrain like that I recommend it.

Skaven have a huge foot print, anything you can do to try and make them change their mind and strategy is worth doing normally.  Many times players have match ups in mind when they are placing units, if that changes because we do not give them the match ups they want by holding back with a unit.  It can mess up their paths to charge and flee if they are trying to bait you.  The guy I was facing had right at 300 models, and  was trying to get them all in on me, which was going to be nearly impossible.  Part of the reason I did as well as I did was I fought his army piece mail.  I hit his A-Bomb because it stuck out 3 inches farther than the rest of his units, I was then overrunning into close combat with two units.  I sat at a long charge range for his furnace monks, which he sadly reached, but if he had not rolled a 9 to reach me he would be at a weird angle giving me a flank charge if I won that fight.  As it turns out when I lost it sent him way away from the rest of the fight, and he was slowed to the point to never being able to reach before the game ended.  lastly the angle his most left unit of slaves was at after the charge meant that his other unit of 50 clanrats could not get in anywhere, and was forced to loop behind the others and try and make it to flank of another unit.   As it turned out they never reached before the game ended in the 3rd turn.

In tournaments in general Skaven all suffer the same issue, which is Time, they can not deal with it.  The only way a skaven is not stopped by time is because everything is dead or the person they are playing quits.  I am not suggesting to slow down your play, but I am saying that because they have to hurry and they know it, mistakes are made on their part fairly often.

I squeeked out a draw on my skaven opponent and I was pretty happy with it.

Oh and by the way - just charge the bloody doomwheel - it sucks in CC (2d6 str2 attacks and a d3 str 6 hits- the d3 hits only happens in a round of combat where the doomwheel hasn't charged!) It might - just might, make 2-3 wounds on naked bulls. You'll beat it, and it'll run.

The problem with this is that if the unit that charged it, the Doomwheel still gets to Zzzap the unit it's in close combat with. I'd also point out that the the Grind attack rules doesn't say it doesn't get it in the first round of combat, but IN A COMBAT WHERE THE DOOMWHEEL HASN'T CHARGED

So, to sum up, assuming the Ogre's charged, before Ogre's even get to hit the Doomwheel, it gets D3Str6 hits, the 2d6 Str2.

If it's still in combat in a second round in the Skaven players shooting phase it gets 3 bolts which multiply into d6 wounds into the unit it's in combat with, if it misfires it gets to ignore it's 3-5 result on the misfire chart, then it gets its next d3 Str6 Grind Down attacks then another 2d6 str 2 attack.

As I said, you pretty much HAVE to break it on the first round.

As for general tip against Skaven:
- Flank charges mess us up
- If a player tries to Skitterleap a Warlock Engineer, he's about to fire a Doomrocket, or even worse, a Brass Orb at you (Brass Orb is small blast, scatters like a stone thrower, Initiative test or die)
- Smart players will use Skitterleap to remove their Grey Seer from imminent combat
- Screaming Bell's aren't very scary. If you don't issue a challenge, you allocate wounds to to the Grey Seer on it and kill him quickly, and he can't Skitterleap away due to the Bell's rules.

Big thing to watch when playing Skaven is the spell "Cracks Call" it can really ruin your day. Initiative Test or die.

Ruby Ring on an Ogre character will help sort out the Aboms as they can't come back to life once Flamed.

Can the Dreaded 13th still work against ogres in 8th edition or what?

It has no effect on MI, so it would only work on gnoblars.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

It has no effect on MI, so it would only work on gnoblars.