Ogre Kingdoms Vs Lizardmen

Give advice on battling Lizardmen here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

Skinks: They may be the size of gnoblers, but don't count them out, they have poison attacks and can swarm over you if your not careful.

Coldone charges: watch your flanks

Characters: can get pretty nasty, if their riding carnosaurs, pack a Hunter, the extra wound giving ability will save you later in the game.

Sarus: they can put up a really good fight, don't attack them with only one unit of ogres, if you've been saving lead belchers for something, here is a good target

Old one Magic: Dispell scrolls are god

Cold Blooded rule means they will more likely then not pass all their needed Ld checks, so be ready for that

a high-skink army is the pefect opportunity to let your butchers go solo and grab some grub for themselves (even if skinks do taste like chicken).  Their high toughness, immunity to poison, ability to thin the skinks out with bonecruncher and then to happily take several down in cc against a unit that will only have 1 static CR (outnumber), is true butcher territory!

get them stuck in!

have some trappers maybe hang about too - a butcher can still fire a bangstick through them and into the skinks without even risking return fire

Yeah, Bonecruncher brutalizes Skinks.

Yes, it may brutalise skinks, but your best bet will be to focus on saurus with braingobblers. As when they have been delt with, you can charge skinks with butchers(you should on average kill 2, winning combat by 1 because he has an outnumber.) with a measly LD5, -1 means he needs to roll reeeeally low.

its rare that a lizardman opponent I face takes more than 2 blocks of saurus.  In fact, taking 1 block seems most common.

my ogres can, therfore, double team his blocks, happily winning combats with the majority of his static res negated.

saurus are slow - I mean gnoblar slow - meaning you can get more time to set up to deal with them.

Why would you use braingobbler against saurus? They have alright leadership, and have the cold blooded rule. I wouldn't waste dice on them.

Well, I have to say a braingobbler on one dice is worth the chance of having one or the only saurus block in the opposing army flee.

Well considering I play the Lizards I could give you some advice on their ways.

Skinks: For 6pts they are much deadlier than 3 gnoblars. The blowpipe makes them a formidable unit and as they are aquatic, try not to include wet scenery. A Lizard player may upgrade them to Scouts for +1pt, so make sure your trappers get the good terrain. Watch out for these little guys!

Chameleon Skinks: If you've played Waywatchers, then you've only just started on these little buggers. They also have blowpipes and are cold blooded. I wouldn't recommend taking Leady Bs because they are too expensive to misfire while attempting to hit these. They also are Scouts and aquatic so watch out even more!

Saurus: Unlike most armies, a block of Saurus will cause you a challenge in combat. They have 2 attacks and for only 12pts they will be taken en masse. If you can, avoid a front charge. This will only cause major problems for CR and being Cold Blooded they are unlikely to run either. At S4 and T4 they are harder to wound than a normal warrior, although they have a maximum save of 5+ and ogres have a minimum decrease of 2, so don't take XHWs.

Temple Guard: These are basically Saurus, but they are so much better at CR. They are Stubborn and are so unlikely to flee at Ld8 and Cold Blooded. As with Saurus, always avoid the front charge. If the unit has a Slann in, then always go for it. Kill the toad! Temple Guard also have a maximum 4+ save, so again, no XHW.

Jungle Swarms: Never get a good unit like Maneaters or Ironguts caught up in these. They will hold you up for at least a turn, if not more. Never expect to overrun. It is very unlikely when they are LD10 and are swarms. I Lizard player will almost always take these against ogres because they are so good at holding up hammer units. Don't let them!

Saurus Cavalry: With a 3+ save, these guys are deadly. Their charge can be devastating and they will aim for the heart of your army. Try to combat them with trappers in the early turns by a sort of ambush. Remember they suffer from stupidity, but that doesn't stop the riders from attacking in combat. At S5 on the charge, they can easily kill an ogre. They will then outnumber, have a kill and maybe even have a rank bonus. Don't let these annoyances charge your best units.

Kroxigors: Now, this is where Lizards get sticky. Being S7 in combat and aquatic, never let them charge a scrappie. They have a 4+ save and are M6. Combat them with the Cannibal Standard. Arm an Irongut unit up and charge them. At 10pts more than an Irongut, you can affor to spend pts on standard and Cannibal Standard. They also have the option of a skirmish screen. Thsi is where the skinks can form up infront of the Kroxigors and charge through them. This is a tactic a Lizard player will use against you if you have Leady Bs. Kill them quickly.

Terradons: There isn't a lot you can do about these. You couldn't say kill them on the second turn of combat because of their Hit-And-Run rule. They will wound you and then run. Being a flying unit, they will be an annoyance from the start. They will fly round your rear and charge. By the time you've turned round to face them, they're gone. I can't think up much advice against them, except counter their flying. Flying units are always a pain against ogres.

Stegadons: Having used Stegadons in 1000pts, they are absalutely devastating. Firstly they will get ond your flank and fir their bow. When that has skewered you, they will charge. If they are out of range, they will throw their javalins at you. They will then charge causing D6+1 impact hits. A Steggy charge is a killing blow to an ogre army. This will make your unit flee most of the time. The Stegadon will survive multiple combats too with 5 wounds. Never underestimate the power of the dinosaur.

Salamanders: These will cause little problems to your army. To be quite honest, I think a Lizard player would rather take 2 Steggys than Salamanders. Keep out of their range but it is unlikely that their flames will cover all your unit. IMO, I wouldn't take salamaners against ogres at 65pts a piece.

Skink Priests: I know it sounds cheese, but I leave my Priesty in a little swamp at the very back of my army. They choose form The Lore Of Heavens and will contiue to zap you from long range. Watch out for Forked Lightening of Uranon's Thunderbolt. Also a Slann may cast spells through the LOS of a Skink Priest. This could mean that you have any spell hitting you!

Skink Chiefs: These may be Skinks, but they are deadly. They have the option of a blowpipe and are S4. They can also be Scouts and have a surprisingly high Initiative. Remember, all skinks have low Ld, so make sure you make them panic.

Scar Veterans: These are not as deadly as an Oldblood, but a Lizard player will choose at least one most of the time. Watch out for Charm Of The Jaguar Warrior. This increases the M4 to 9. They can ride Cold Ones and join the Cold One charge. This spells bad news for the unit on the other end of the charge. There is a combo of armour that makes a Scar Veteran have a 0+ save and even more. This is a large problem. There is also a magic item that increase the 4 S5 attacks to 6. That is one deadly Saurus.

Oldbloods: You may think that these are much like their younger brothers. Yet there is one HUGE difference: the option of the dreaded Carnosaur. Apart from the Stat Line change to Scar Veterans, they have 100pts of the deadly Lizardmen Magic Items list. This can be used to create evil combos that can devastate an ogre army.

Carnosaurs: For 210pts, these beasts don't come cheap to your opponent, yet they will still leap at the chance to use one. They have frenzy that they will never loose even if beaten in combat. Against Bull Rhinox (or infact any Large Target), they will cause D3 wounds. With 4 S6 attacks and 5 wounds, they are a challenge to kill in combat. With a well chosen Oldblood with a good selection of Magicm Items, these are game winners. Always take a Hunter with Beastkiller and take him down!

Slanns: The reknowned bloated toads that at 2nd Generation are 550pts (or there abouts). They can choose from any Lore and may have 8 wounds. Every spell this 2nd Generation Slann casts may add an extra D6 to his spell. If you are fighting an army with a Slann in, either go Magic Frenzy, or leave it out all together. You will only cast spells against them with a lot of persaverance from multiple butchers and slaughtermasters. Always remember that if killed, a 2nd Generation Slann will give you an extra 200 VP to your total. Now that's worth going toad hunting!

In general, make sure you are the one charging. Lizards have little in the way of shooting, which leaves that phase slightly out of the occasion, but always remember the blowpipes. Make the battle even by using hammer units on hammer units. Never underestimate anything. That is probably one of the main downfalls a Lizard's opponent faces. They forget that there's a Steggy, and they think that it won't do anything. Believe me, I have used Stegadons many times, and the look of horror on the opponents face is priceless when the realise they should have taken him down long before! For an all round army, Lizards are top of the list. They have good movement, alright shooting, excellent magic and excellent combat. It'll need a torny list to conquer these scaly opponents!

That'll do.

Thanks

If you don't use a Butcher (for 1000 points), what is the best way to deal with Skinks? I played Lizardmen yesterday, and Bulls really don't like poison at all. Same with IG's, although at least they have a save  It was devastating. It was a 750-point game, and all but two of my models were killed by poison. Mind you, he did roll insane amounts of 6's.  Is it best to send Gnoblar Fighters and Trappers to keep them away from your Ogres? Do you just have to try to avoid them? I need help. 

nasty dice do happen - and poison is something we hate as a race.  Ogres have to rely on their high toughness to not take wounds as we have little/no armour available to us - and poison bypasses our toughness altogether!

in 1000 point games against lots of skinks I'd be looking for a build that maximized the amount of armour in any particular unit.

so I'd

up the number of ironguts - fielding a minimal number of bulls
I'd pop a character in key units to spread the damage from shooting - and maybe have one of those heros have a wyrdstone necklace to help defect those poison wounds

but seriously, I'd play a butcher, not jsut for his ability to soak poison wounds from his unit by being in it and immune to posion, but for his ability to also cast trollguts and give my units a 4+ save against it!

If you can't have/don't want a butcher then trappers have a better chance of stopping skinks than fighters, as they start closer to the skinks, can deny them a scouting location and can jump out in front of the skinks to prevent them having LoS on the ogres for a while (hopefully long enough to get me within charge range).

Just had my first real concrete victory against Lizardmen in a 500 point game so going to add a few things that worked for me again:

Bone cruncher: Character killer, skink slaughter, stayer of cold ones... god I love this spell

Iron guts: give them regen, and go nuts! I got him on the bull charge, and rolled well, These guys stole a victory from Saurus on Coldones, and suffered only one casuality
9origional Unit size of 4)

I had a unit of 4 bulls (only ogre clubs and a bellower) that crushed a full unit of Sarus in a few turns and had enough power left to charge the remainder of the army.

all in all, the game was really won with the butcher, who I used to roll and take out units from the side with bone cruncher, as well as give the support magic to my troops.

Most people have problems in dealing with scouts but for chamelon skinks it is easy, they are going to be very close to you and therefore in range of a bonecruncher, normally these little blighters are in dnese terrain adding to their chamelionic abilities, but remeber magic negates cover saves so blast those little reptiles!

remember, however, that you still need LoS to target them - so 2" of woods will mean that you'll have to get closer first.

will the hellheart override the lizardman rule for not miscasting since they miscast as a butcher?

Well, no. The slann will miscast but will not suffer the effects.

The only way to reliably kill saurus is to use your ironguts. You also will want to attack units with little or no rank bonus thanks to their potential 3+ Armor save in the front. 4+ For most saurus. Unfortunetly, any lizardmen player worth their salt will have their flanks covered with support units. Stegadons are actually no trouble. 3 Bulls have a good chance if you attack the skinks with your ogre clubs. You should get about three kills and outnumber. So, unless the stegadon hits and wounds with all of its attacks you will probably win (Bar any lucky skinks)

The carnosaur is a monster and if it charges you your dead. If you charge it however, you should crush it, survive the lord, and run him down do to fear. (Since his carnosaur is missing...and I think that is right...) Remember to bring a tenderiser tyrant though.


Salamanders are nasty. Don't underestimate then just because they have S3. If your within 15" your auto hit. (Don't know what shavis was talking about when he talked about the flames not being able to cover your unit...it just auto hits if your in range.) Salamanders can usually kill a bull or irongut, and that will cause a panic that might make your flankers kick it and run. It really ruins your day if you lose three attacks right before your going to charge. Makes a difference. The salamanders arn't chumps in combat either, and a couple of bulls angry for revenge might trounced if actually in range. (tsk tsk for the lizardmen.)

You will hardly ever find skink priests a problem. They usually have trouble staying safe and having LOS for the heavens spells. Sacred Hosts can use different lores though, so stay on your toes. Can't have a lvl 2 drop the pit of shades on ya.

no it won't - but please save these questions for the rules forum.

I had real problems yesterday with a Lizardman general fleeing my charges. Twice I dodn't make the distance and the cold blooded rule mean he could almost guarantee his rally.

I was using one unit of 6 bulls, which was a trouble magent but it did leave my Iron Guts free to tidy up his saurus warriors.

All up it was my first full game against lizardmen and was a real challenge.

Use the Braingobbler spell on the skinks as they are often away from the general on the flanks. If you can cast at them from an angle then they will flee towards a table edge. I had 3 maneaters with a mix of CLW and GRWPNS destroy a unit of Kroxigers but Ironguts augamented with Gut magic will do it. Haven't faced a Slann lord yet, though due to soon and not too sure how to deal with them. Has anyone tried using a scraplauncher to thin the templeguards ranks, did it work?

Later

generally, the slann I face don't have temple guard with them - and 2 gorgers in the back works pretty well untl your other troops arrive.

My biggest threat have always been Skinks, my key Rival opponent is an avid player, and the first thing he does is send them it to some area, (like water) and use it as both a bunker and a means of swift escape.  The only thing I found that  works for these guys is either staying 11" away from the unit and hitting them with LB's  or just  start harassing them with my Bonecruncher spell

well i know this player who is a Lizardman player and a couple of games i see him play at 2000 he used Lord Krog or whatever his name is and he uses 3 skink preists always and the games i face with him I tried to bet him with my Dwarfs than the latest game i played him was with Chaos dwarfs in 1100 game and I'm getting the knolagde of Ogres which I like better than all my other races and I dont know how to defeat him becouse he uses magic too much and anytime i try to charge his skinks always get rapid fire.(also i lost becouse he did an Illegal move and we didnt know that until a expance player came and told us I havent played fantasy in a while but i like it maybe a bit more than 40k hehee. :p

Lord Kroak - the dead frog - is a point sink of vast proportions (well over 1000 points).  He's also nothing to worry about - just sic your gorgers on him and work a unit of yhetees around near him.  Although he's dead, he's NOT immune to psychology and suffers from fear - he can be made to take insane courage tests and run down pretty easily by ogres who will have the outnumber against him.

yea good idea thx i will the ogre speed to our advantage.

Had my first game with Ogres v Lizzies last night (two quick games).  The games went really well, with me cleaning up most of his army by around turn 2-3 - note: that this was mainly due to his inexperience with the Lizzie list, although it was only my third game with the Ogres as well.

Things that I found worked really well - Tactical wheeling when charging against the Skinks - This meant that I got a lot of useful overruns...   - With their 8/12" range - they are always going to be within charge range of your Ogres - so might as well send them in.  If they flee - fine, when you get counter-charged with Krox or something, just flee in response and hit the Krox with the second line rank of Iron Guts.

Siegebreaker - I didn't take this just to take on the Lizzies - but it worked out well, because most of the Lizzie characters have Low In and high WS - so with the Siegebreaker, I was hitting on 3's every time.

Kineater - I had to compact my army a lot to get the benefit from this - but it proved VERY Important.  With shooting from Sallies/Skinks/Steg - I was losing a couple of Ogres from squads per turn (all my Ogres are 4 or less models) - This meant a lot of panic tests from shooting...  Although the Tyrants Ld9 is nice - you WILL end up failing Psych tests at some stage -and with Ogres, the loss of any unit, or a broken battle line, can prove very deadly.

Do watch out for the Carnisaur. I played against it last night and underestimated its ability. It tore apart my Deathstar unit containing my 10 Ironguts, a Slaughtermaster, a Firebelly, and my BSB. It did have a dual charge with a unit of Cold ones which kinda helped. During the game I fire 4 cannon balls at it from my two iron blasters. Twice I failed to wound it (rolling 1's) and twice I scored a single wound. Same with the rider. 3 times I failed to wound him and once I wounded him. He was unkillable. I then tried to lock him up with a constant stream of challanges. First my Champion died, then my Firebelly, then my BSB, finally my Slaughter master.

I know statistically it should have died but it was a fun game.

yeah, but that's just bad luck.  Even average rolls would have killed him.  And don't forget: the cannonballs autohit the guy riding him too.  Still, double ironblasters is a must against lizardmen.  Some cheap gnoblar units to push back those chameleons is mandatory too.

Lol Fear the Carnosaur!! Hehe you can't be serious.

I play both ogres and lizardmen - you will not see the carnosaur except in friendly games.

Just make sure you hit the carnosaur - not the rider. And remember the basics, never accept challenges from someone riding a monster.....The carnosaur does d3 wounds but its dead before it goes - its even slower than you are at ini 1. It has ws3 and almost no armor save.

An even better tactic against carnosaur is to feed it 10 gnoblars - diverting it. Since it becomes frenzy when it does its first wound, it has to overrun.

Ironblaster kills both lord and carnosaur.

An oldblood on carnosaur is 355 points without items....probably the worst choice in the armybook.

lol.  As long as people keep believing that, I will keep winning tournaments with the Carno.

Hinge

Sorry Hinge, but I'm about as likely to underestimate the old carni' as I am to underestimate a Doombull.

I've never played against a Carnosaur - what are it's rules that allow it to be so fearsome instead of just Ironblaster fodder?

It has D3 multiple wounds. Aside from that its basically a flightless dragon on a 50mm base(IIRC)

In all honesty, the Slann is a much better choice for LM.  The Carno is indeed overpriced.  However, if you enjoy a game that emphasizes movement rather than magic, he is a blast to play and you can win plenty of tournament games with him. 

Indeed the Carno is St7 and d3 wounds, making him very effective at munching on ogres.  He is flightless, which limits his mobility but this also can be an advantage.  The need to charge around the skink screens rather than over makes it easier to contrive a clip.   

Ironblasters are the primary concern when I face off against Ogres.  I will use every trick in the book to mitigate their effectiveness.  Buildings and walls will stop cannon balls.  The Carno is not a large target and you can often hide behind a hill if need be.  Ironblasters are shorter ranged then cannons, so if the opponent sets it up on one flank, you can drop the monsters on the other.  Other ideas are the EoTG 5+ ward save shield, target Saturation (I take 2 stegs in addition to the Carno), cannonball catching Kroxigors.  With nothing else to cast, I can afford to pour dice into Ice Shard blizzard.  Finally, the natural toughness of the beastie in the form of 5 wounds provides some protection.  While it seems it would be certain that the Ironblasters will do the trick, you can actually make it very difficult for them to accomplish the goal. 

In the meantime, I am throwing everything at the IBs to kill them as quickly as possible.  Poison shots, terradon rocks, Uranon’s Thunder bolt, panic tests, etc.  Is there an opportunity to use skinks to limit the movement the IBs?  By throwing a screen in front of the IB, can I force him to stay out of range or at extreme range? Force him to move through woods to get a shot off on a monster? If he charges the skinks with the IB, that is turn he is not shooting at my important units.

In many ways it becomes a race, can I kill the IBs before they kill my monsters.  I find I am much better at stacking the odds in my favor then my opponent. 

Tactical quiz.  I have positioned a unit of cham skinks on a hill to shoot at your IB.  On your turn, the only way to get a shot off against a monster is to move past the skinks.  Are you going to give me a flank/charge/downhill for static rez 3 to skinks?  A reminder, the rhinox can not attack sideways.  There is a risk of me getting Ice shard blizzard off as well?  Did you keep the IB in IP/BSB range?  will you be embarassed when the skinks break the IB?  Will it throw your game off?

Hinge

Yes, followed by the firebelly exiting 12 inches from the character bunker's flank, freely reforming to send his breath template down the length of the cam skinks.  If they still charge, the ogre will further reduce their numbers, and the resultant flee (augmented by swift stride)should bring them across the IP and BSBs influence.

I still bring double IBs against LM, but given their propensity for target saturation (Stegadons and Salamanders being the prime example), as well as retardedly effective poisoned skirmishers (I might have a bit of a complex concerning camelleon skinks  ), getting the IBs to kill what they need to is by no means a certainty.

I would love for the firebelly to waste its flame breath against a 5 man unit of cham skinks.   

Actually the right answer is you take the shot against the monsters and accept that, at a minimum you will not be able to shoot next turn.  My point is that taking two IB and the other side has monsters is not an auto win for the Ogres.  A competent player will degrade the performance of the IBs.

The Achilles heel for my list is Death Magic.  Most of my losses have been to this lore.  Have yet to face a deathfister, but that (with the double IB), would be some bad ju-ju.

I find my sallies to be not that effective against Ogres.  I take two singles and they end up filling the roll of chaff rather than infantry toasters when I face Ogres.  Your experience different Nim?

Hinge

Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of both "massed-Salamander fire" and "massed-Salamanders-supported-by-a-Shadow-Slann."  The first by itself was enough to steer me away from hordes.  Even wounding on a 5, that many flamer templates will carve through a unit.  When you have a Slann repeatedly casting Withering on the unit before said templates go ripping through it, well... Some things just need therapy to fix. 

Hmm.  Maybe it is that I only take singletons.  How many Ogres fit under a perfect flame template hit?  6?  8?  That is only 2 wounds a flame template.  It is actually not much different than a unit of skinks, which cost about the same.  Obviously the auto panic is a bonus as well as the smaller foot print of a single salamander.  Then again skinks are better than salamanders against single model units. 

Yeah the Shadow Slann will make it worse, but that can be said for any match-up. 

Don't forget that the -3 to armor saves eliminates any saves from the vast majority of models in our army, unlike Skinks.

Death is a pretty nasty combo with salies too.

It. All depends on who your playing and if it is a fun or compative game. I have play LM sense they were first release. I put them on the self to bring my ogres back to life.

Look at this way at 2200 points you could face two Slann. Granted not tool up, but with a free fouce.
Ex, light with a free dice. Shadow eaitherale, now toss in a skin with cube of darkness.
Also shave points, skin BSB with mirro sheild, hide him in TG unit.

What u got is nasty list, small but deadly. The light spells buff TG and sur ( spears work well in this given combo) and use your shadow Slann to debuff and Sally's to roast everything. Dule LV 4 will shutdown a ogres magic phase, the cube is there as a game ending control usually late game.
IB don't work on solo eaitherale Slann, in fact there's no shooting it fears from orgres.

This is a hard battle for ogres, and that's a small game, go up two 2500, and it gets ugly.

LM are not unbearable but your opt can make life evey difficult for you. Well in fact most armies have a difficult time against them.
 
Part in reason why I shelf them. Some list can make the game not fun to play.

Sorry double post iPhone is acting up, can't go back and edit so not if it is edited or double post.

Things to look for, we know we can't battle there magic. No point in debating it. Tool up Slann will own magic phase, add more than one and ugly.
Hell hearts nice, but smart player won't let u get close.  dispell scroll needed. 

Must bring a BSB, panic is the best tool of LM skins dirt cheap has a very strong chance of panicking a huge chunk of army.  There not much to midagate this. If u bunch up for LD bubble u open your self to onslaught of template spells, chain light if havens is used.  Small units skins panic you IB or thunderstusk off the bord.

Becafull of redirectors cats, if the make contact them own skins, however if shot sent off on panic could spook flank
Gobos, no smart player will ever tgt these with with skins or chemo skins. They will just dart around them use them against you.  How either as a blocker or in the off chance a players takes the a groin bitter. It's free dice for death magic, yes I said tgt it death spell is really a waste? Going to ern a die, and some players try to dispell it, pleas wast your DD on saving a unit of gobos. I hope the players on this forum are smarter than that.

Now let's look at the humble sinks, cheep and master of a point denileal list.  Left uncheck will pelt you with posin all day, get mad and charge sure thanks, rank up and take it. There take it and die. Even if there 20 of them, there's no way ur making your points back. Left uncheck will be a big pain.  Dule charge with cats anything bigger is wast of points and over kill. Nothing makes LM player happier than having a skins take a charge from bulls/IG or man eaters, or stonehorn. I not going talk about MF charging them. Only seen that once.

Ok on skins and kroxs mix, LM either love them or hate them. With the right lores, they can hurt. I tend to see them do less damage to ogres IMO. But the big guys hit as hard as IG and with random hits tend to take less damage. If boosted with the right spells, these blocks hurt. One of there use is a tarpit, well a real deadly one. Cause magic boost the whole unit, so in effect u powering up two units in one. ( not going cover each lore and what they can do to make a nasty combo, but if any wants a indept write up on it let me know) also this can be used in the offense as well, but thats magic and or situation depend.

Saurus. yay we got higher I than some one, ooh snap they have a better save, 99% boosted by magic, and have natural stats high than most core troops. Seeing spears is tell tale your opt is defense player(s). Hw/S look be ready for ligh/shadow combo or life/shadow even light/life.  ( not talking about players who list teller for ogres, list tailoring with LM is pure dick move. LM can list tailor like no other army)
Saurus can be dule charge shoot width grapshots, or hit with a death start.  A stone horn will ruin there day. Thunderstusk help but be mind fully charging solo with one.

Swarms I going to cover in quick point. If used and used right will slow ogres down, and tie up your heavy hitters. Again point Denalily.  And mobile cover. I will go in to detail on this. 1) set up in front of Sally's use to stop them from getting charged, another use to do the same but with a eatheraile solo Slann. For less than the cost of 1 IG they can tie up a or wast a charge of unit 10x it's cost.  Oh there poisn attacks too, yeah 6s can happen.

Chemo skins, the bane of IB thunderstusk stone horn and well just about and thing. Manethers go ahead wast shots at them in there naturally -1 stacks. If the bord has water don't deploy anything close to it. They will call it a home and frustrate the piss out of you. Again same as skins go charge them. And wast a Killy unit, also because there always on the flank, u will have to face a flank charge if u get stuck in combat. ( have seen other LM swear by this and use agiasnt other armies, tie up flank charge in with cold ones or steg.
Grapshots are nice, LB too, dule charge cats.

Cold one clav.  I Don't use them.
Setgs both types.  I Don't use them
Tergdon, I don't use them.

Sally's mixed with shadow one of the most hated units in game. Kill them quickly charge at all cost, reason if your opt loads up on them, it's the back bone of his battle plan. Shooting at them will let them keep flaming your units. Bad panic is manntory, add shadow spells and run time.  There point cost is not high either. Two cost less than IB.
Smart players go straight for Your MF than bulls/IG. BSB units are often avoid in the first round of shooting reason why don't want to wast auto panic check. Stubborn helps a lot, great on maneaters. Can't count how many times I sent the scout version running on first turn. Good new death spells work, bad news lv4 babysitter and either a cube of darkness, DS, or fouce that's eats you'r 6s, if death is in range your also in range for that fouce. Plus a magical banner than can force you to stuipdy test on your caster. Bad for us low LD again toss in shadow and u got a dumb wizard.

The other shooty monster. Not as deadly I don't use them often. But can be down right nasty to ogres. If you LM players decied to list talor look for these. They must stand and shoot. With 2d10, S4 bs skill not high. If used with light magic, you just charge in to 2d10, now boosted to ws10 int10 with handlers who stack up front to take impact hits. Depending on might combos it gets worst.  There point cost is high but not high enough. Usually ran in pairs smaller games run solo next to TG block stops the charge.

We all know what the Slann dose. ( if any one wants a detail write up for anit-ogres Slann let me know)

Scar vets, put them on cold one, magic weapons cheap magic sheild = can kill any of CH there cheap 2 can be fielded with no problems. They used nail flank or rear charges. If the LM player is sacred of hellheart, expects to see one of this running for you. When used to support blocks of surus it gets ugly. Again light or life makes them even harder to kill.
If on foot in surus, look at two builds, if playing defense mirror sheild redirect your magic missile, offense support magic weapon and maming sheild, magic boost S extar high power attack.

Skin chiefs, have seen some nasty combos but I don't feild them.

Skin priest. In small games there a pain in high points games you'r going to want to punch your opt. 1) scroll caddy
2) cube of darkness 3) flying wizard that can be used to chanlfe a magic missle. So what's so special about that? Simple Slann is in the rear safe. Also no need to use more dice to cast the exstend range version. Less chance to miscast.  Cheap and can be spammed.

LM are top tier army, if playing friendly they can be fun, if your opt wants to win and Dosent care about your feelings the right list can be made, and ogres will have a up hill battle. Increasing the points helps the LM more than orgres.

In compative play I have only lost 3 to orgres. Friendly games the odds are better for OK.

If anyone is stuck facing a talor list let me know I might be able to help. Again LM are strong enough no need to list talor.

Hmm.  Maybe it is that I only take singletons.  How many Ogres fit under a perfect flame template hit?  6?  8?  That is only 2 wounds a flame template.  It is actually not much different than a unit of skinks, which cost about the same.  Obviously the auto panic is a bonus as well as the smaller foot print of a single salamander.  Then again skinks are better than salamanders against single model units. 

Yeah the Shadow Slann will make it worse, but that can be said for any match-up. 

IIRC the Flame Breath actually has to cause a casuality to cause a panic test. If it only causes 2 wounds there isn't going to be a casuality unless the unit was previously wounded.

Got slauightered when I ran an all combat army against lizardmen. we're on of their best match ups - low armour!

Would recommend:

1) double ironblaster for all the new monsters. - best hope your comp is kind!
2) at least one firebelly to get rid of the skirmishin skinks
3) maybe the gnuts sickle if you have any hoe of getting spells off reliably.
4) don't bother with a hellheart

Out of our available Lores of Magic, which combination is the most useful to run against a Lizardman army?

I am thinking of taking a Slaughtermaster (Lvl4), Butcher (Lvl2) and a Butcher (Lvl1) in a 2000pt battle next weekend. The rest of the list will be MMU style: BSB, 10 Bulls, 9 Guts, 2x 4 Leadbelchers, Ironblaster, 2 Mournfangs + characters.

My thinking is that with this set-up, I can choose any of the BRB lores available to Butchers, taking 6 spells of one lore, and one spell from another.

This would let me get all 6 Maw spells (for the guarantee of getting the buffs) + Wyssan's Wildform. Or I could get all spells from Beasts, Heavens or Death and still have the obligatory Maw caster as tax.

Which spell list do you find most useful against Lizardmen- or is it the case usually, that you can't cast spells because they have an overpowered magic phase/ magic defence?

I can trade the SM, dual Butcher set-up for a Tyrant and 2 Firebellies to get access to Lore of Fire, which, with Fireball for everyone, seems to be one of the most solid lores out there (especially because it can be consistent, which is a massive thing for me ).

I'll be facing High Elves and Tomb Kings at the same event, though event rules allow me to decide Magic lores at the start of every game, for extra flexibility- it's why I thought Butchers = more choice = what I should do, but the more I think about Tyrant and double Belly, the more I like it against all of those matchups.

Nothing says 'No' to Skinks like a bunch of auto-hitting S4 shots

TL; DR: What do you think, fellow Tyrants? Which Lore do you think has more power and utility against the new Lizardmen?

I would recommend Heavens against Lizardmen. Chain Lightning against the skirmishing skinks can prove extremely useful.

Iceshard is always useful but made better now that Skinks have gone down to Ld5

Comet will make sure he has to shift his skink chorot that will be usually guarding the Slann.

Death seems like a good idea until you realise that the Slann has a 2++ to magic.

I like the aggression of heavens.

I wouldn't touch Maw with a barge pole against lizzies running high magic as Drain magic will just delete all you buffs.

Played my first game against the new lizardmen, here are a few things I gleaned from my thrashing.
-- First, kill Gor-Rok.
     This guy is amazing.  For 185 points, you get stubborn, T6 with a 2+, rerolls to hit, and predatory attacks on a 5+.  And thats just the good stuff.  Expect him to account for at least an ogre per round of combat by himself.  If you get the chance to put a large number of attacks into him, do so.  I know, I know, you're saying that it ain't hard to push two wounds through, and that the vaunted ironguts drop his save to a 5+, but that brings me to my next caution...
--Beware the bastillodon/Slann combo.
     The bastillodons are fairly crap monsters (though with a good save) in close combat.  However, they will almost never be in combat because they're DINOSAURS WITH LASERS ON THEIR HEAD.  Their single-dice bound spell is designed to suck out your dispel dice.  Just letting them go off will result in your units being rapidly sanded down until they're no longer effective.  This means the Slann will be able to get more spells off per turn.
     The nastiest Slann I've seen is the High-loremaster who channels on a 5+ and rolls 3 dice to do so.  It means he'll almost always generate additional dice.  The first spell to be cast is usually replaced with Miasma.  This gives them two spells (Hand of Glory being the other) that mess with WS.  An average roll on Miasma will result in Ogres hitting on 5s against rank and file, while an average roll on Hand means that Ogres can only hit characters on a 5.  Remember Gor-Rok?  That means, statistically, it takes 18 attacks to push through 2 wounds.  Really hard to do against a character on the edge of a spear formation.  It only gets worse when you factor in the occasional Wyssans and Earthblood.

A friend of mine runs a similar Slann, but still with Light. Though High Magic has some nasty stuff, Light is still a fairly nasty lore - although they have the whole bunch, so they could just castle with Life, or cripple with Shadow... really whatever lore they run will be a problem.

I'm also wondering how effective Saurus cav are now. I don't know what they were like in the old book, but the current ones can put out 4 attacks a model at Strength 4, and still have a 2+ armour save. Perhaps nothing amazing, but it's a problem unit if we can't get high strength into it.


Also, Piranha Blade and Armour of Destiny makes for a very potent Oldblood Challenger/MI Killer. Be careful going near this guy, he might turn up at certain point levels alongside the Slann just to chop up anyone that gets cocky.

That's the issue with the Slann Loremaster: it may start out with High Magic, but those spells get swapped out for it's preferred lore, letting it cherry pick the best of High while still grabbing most of another lore.

currently I am running the skink cloud. 9x10 skink skirmishers plus 7 chameleon skinks plus 4 stegs and 2 bastiladons. Really puts the hurt on ogres.

I have found that trying to rely a bit on impact hits on the monsters can work wonders.

Also ogre hit before saurus warrior and buffed ogres kill saurus warriors - true story ; ). The same holds true for maneaters versus temple guards.

Firebellies are great against skinks - both the breathweapon and fireballs auto-hit. And an early medium fireball can cause lots of (cold blooded) panic tests. BUT if you face a lvl4 with super channel you are screwed.

Maw banner is a great way to screw the army.  You can bounce drain magic and keep your buffs, if that's your game.  A big Irongut or Maneater unit can barrel through their lines, as long as you have enough gnoblar type stuff to clear the way for it.  The one spell that you must stop is Hand of Glory and then only once you hit combat.  I have found that gnoblars are the ultimate answer to the skink cloud (and several other issues we have against more recent armies).