Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Lizardmen

Well, in a recent game i had, their skinks tore me to pieces. You realy need some trappers to 'anti-scout' them, and tie them up.

Okay lizards are a very hard army to beat with their skinks and sauraus warriors and all but their are a few helpful hints to beat them down....

1.  Use butchers!!  These will be your scroll caddies and also will get rid of the enevitable skinks in his army on average you should take out a skink squad a turn..

2.  Gnoblars are fantastic for getting rid of those sauraus cavalry and krocigors so take units of them..  If they don't have any use them as screens in case they have a slann mage priest and also for the flee and counter attack strategy.(i use them to stear saruas cav and krocigors away from the main fight!!)

3.  Iron guts are worth a look too because even the basic sauraus unit has a 4+ save which is impressive so take iron guts to make their redundent.

4.  Leadbelchers are something against lizards i would always favour to take because they can get rid of their terradon riders or even their skinks(even in combat!!).  Also if you have the option shoot their slann with leadies as well because he's a large target you get 1+ to hit so making it more tempting.  If leadies don't shoot that well just  charge their skinks or even blocks in the flanks...

5.  If all this doesn't work out take MSU style ogres!!  That way his skinks will either have no where to hide or even get lots of charges on his saraus blocks!!

Hope this helps!!

One comment I can make about fighting lizardmen that I discovered while playing my lizardmen against ogres was do not be afraid to throw a unit of bulls with extra HW or ironguts into a unit of 20 saurus, as long as they have toothcracker or trollguts on them.  They will lose combat the first round or 2 but if they can hold, the saurus cannot win in the long run.  They will always lose most of the front rank since they go last (Init 1) and never have enough swings to do much damage.  Watch out for the scar-vet or Oldblood sitting in that front rank though.  bring a tyrant along to take care of him.

Also, get skinks to flee from charging units AWAY from their general and they will hardly ever recover with a Ld 5, even on 3 dice.  And do not take the bait of a skink screen in front of kroxigors.  You charge, they flee, you get slammed by kroxigor the next turn.

i just gave a lizardman player a bit of a beating, a solid victory in 2000 points, by getting rid of his manouverability first.  He used his skinks to protect the flanks of his general's unit, and while they managed to keep them unmolested for most of the game, by the end they got mass-charged and killed.  i stayed well clear of his stegadon, even backing away at points.  I drew his saurus cavalry into a trap with stubborn maneaters in the second turn, then killed them in my 3rd.  This meant i could isolate, surrond and destroy his 3 blocks of 20 saurus with the mark of Quetzl... destroy the support, and M6 on ogres should see you control the movement phase, and thus the game

I just played lizardmen yesterday 1000k and had a pretty solid victory. Those poisoned blowdarts were pretty effective though, especially with defensive fire. Fortunately it used up quite a few points. and i used quite a few of my butchers magic missles on the rest of his army.

easy one this. bulls on sarus, gnoblars on skinks, scraplauncher for surport and counter charges (mine charged an unharmed stegadon by its self and killed it in one turn), tyrant and ironguts (who should always be together) can take on the big lizard things (cant remember what their called) then have a game of free picks. butcher not always needed (i didnt have one) but can be usefull.

Being that I used to run Lizzies a lot (and will switch back soon enough), and that my 3 prep games _and_ Game 1 of last week's local RTT were against 4 different Lizard players (amazingly enough, I actually went 3:1...), a few quick thoughts.

What you will likely be facing.
Three types of armies, generally speaking. Note that I'm assuming a level of competence on the part of the opponent (i.e. not a 12-year old throwing random models together).

- Saurus Horde - built around 3+ large Saurus blocks (20+), at least 2/3 with HWs/Shields. Certainly with a BSB, almost certainly with the Jaguar Old Blood Of Doom. I have seen a version with a Slann BSB. Skinks will be fairly light, a Stegadon + 3 Sallies + Krox are more likely candidate for support. Or 6 Sallies + Krox (a particularly vicious combination). Good magic defense (2 Marks of Tepok + 1-2 caddies or a Slann), not incredibly fast but can grind down most opponents.

If the opponent knows his stuff, he'll basically make you come to him, blasting your troops along the way. The good news is that he actually needs to have his Saurus to engage if he wants to win, and if he's good he won't make the mistake of splitting the blocks along 2+ directions. [3 mutually supporting Saurus regiments with backup are a vicious nut to crack.]

Bringing Belchers and Scrappas can actually help here, as will Fear. Ideally you either want to engage his entire front and then try to flank, or pile all your Ogres into one of his units, Auto-break, Overrun/Pursue anAnd try to avoid getting counter-charged by the other blocks. Wildcards are Krox/Steggies and the Jaguar Oldblood.

- Balanced Lizards – the easiest build to manage, and one seen most frequently. Generally 1-3 medium-sized blocks, 30+ Skinks, 3 Krox, Sallies, a generous helping of Chameleons/Terradons. Steggies are optional, and this list doesn’t usually go Magehammer. [Priests and Marks of Tepok, again.] Jaguar Oldblood is an option, of course (the dude is _that_ useful), as are Swarms, but not a necessity. Sometimes you’ll see Saurus cav or some such.

He will try to shoot you/disrupt you, then use a Saurus/Krox or Saurus/Steggie combo. Expect him to split Saurus blocks among several directions of attack, each amply supported. [Sometimes the Krox/Steggy would be split off to threaten/guard a flank.] Probably will use Krox more aggressively as he’ll have more support units to play with (and to throw away).

Here you run into the problem of him not having to engage you at all to get a Major, since he’s only sunk a relatively few points into the infantry. [This is where Gorgers help to force him from his DZ – though if he kept some Skinks back, the Gorgers are better off following your main line.] Your best bet is to focus on wiping out his support troops before taking on the Saurus themselves. Unless your opponent is a greenhorn and throws his blocks towards you, in which case you’ll have a much easier time in breaking up his heavy infantry. [2 blocks of 15 go down much quicker than 3 blocks of 20.]

- Kroq Gar – I have seen/faced this army exactly once, though quite recently. Basically a Saurus on Carnosaur, some Saurus Cav, a Steggie, and the rest in Skinks/Sallies. Krox are usually a bit too slow for this army. It is designed to run at you and beat stuff up, with Skinks/Terradons/Chameleons sniping away from the flanks. Jaguar Saurus is optional, and the list can’t take a Slann, but magic defense should still be solid. Notably, unless Kroq Gar himself is used, the general will most likely _not_ be the guy riding the Carnosaur.

Fortunately, Ogres are pretty well positioned to take this army on, especially if the opponent makes the mistake of attacking too soon. [Conversely, if he is patient and spreads his “assault” units along 3 vectors about 13-14” away from you, you’re in a spot of trouble.] The Ogres _are_ vulnerable if charged, but on the bright side you can feed him your throw-away units and counter. His units tend to crumble when charged, especially if a Tyrant is involved. Watch for Terror.

One particular trick this army will almost surely resort to – Banner of Huanchi (a banner that allows one “free”, unstoppable move straight ahead in the Magic Phase, somewhat like the Undead movement spells or Waaagh) . A Saurus Cav unit facing Ogres will use its movement phase to march around and face the flank, probably only a few inches away – then use the banner in the Magic Phase to flank-charge. Also works if he has 2 “chargers” in echelon – the unit in front charges, you figure all is well and Hold, the unit in the back then marches around and uses the banner to flank you.

- Evil Slann Army From Hell – I have only seen _very_ experienced players use this, and to great effect. [I myself am transitioning my army from “balanced” to this type of build, though I had arrived at the idea independently of what others were doing with the list.]

The list is based around a Slann (typically second gen) by himself with the BSB upgrade and War Banner. The rest of the army is mostly Skinks, 2x3 Krox, Sallies, 2 units of Terradons (or Terradons + Chameleons), probably a Stegadon. [Alternatively – 2 Steggies and no Sallies. Given the rest of the army, you don’t _really_ need the extra shooting.] Very few Saurus – from none at all to 2 units of 10-12. At least 1 Priest for Magehammer, probably a Jaguar Scar Vet.

The army is relatively fast, uber-shooty, and doesn’t engage unless absolutely necessary. Also filled with cheap units that can be sacrificed. The Slann comes in to break up small units and on the flank (US5, standard, War Banner – that’s a ton of CR right there). Magic will likely be Heavens Reroll spell and then Life.

Not pretty.

To win, you have to kill the Krox/Steggies and get to the Slann – easier said than done, especially since the Krox/Steggies will probably be used semi-defensively. [I.e. he’ll let you enter his charge arc while shooting you up.] Frankly, the only way Ogres won’t have a tough time here is if they bring 100+ Gnoblars, 3 Butchers, 4 Scraplaunchers and a bunch of Ironguts to the party, then hang back and shoot until Turn 5 or so.

Unit specific counters/tactics
Listing those most frequently used/encountered:

Krox. They will likely charge you, since you’re the one who needs to engage. On the charge, 3 Krox will hit you 4.5 times, and wound you 3.75 times. By itself that’s not _too_ bad, unless you already have a couple of wounds on the unit (net 2 models dead), or they get you in the flank. Or they hit a unit with one of your characters (they’re a perfect way to take down an already weakened Tyrant).

Generally, Krox are not as scary as they look, but caution must be exercised nonetheless. And remember, they _will_ flee from your Tyrant with a Longstrider (Cold Blooded 7 means they’ll probably rally next turn, meanwhile your Tyrant is Skink bait).

Skinks. The bane of many people’s existence. These little blighters will generally run around outside your charge arc shooting the living daylights out of your poor Ogres.

Shoot them back.

Scraplaunchers are great at taking off Skink units. Belchers are less so, but then you only need to kill a few to force a Panic check.

Oh yes. Panic checks. Skinks run a lot. They also tend to operate outside of the Lizzie general’s Ld range. Thus, move-and-shoot (or, more accurately, turn-and-shoot) units like Scrappas and Belchers can actually do wonders against them. These shooters can be deployed in echelon as well (behind your main Ogre line), ensuring pesky Skinks/Terradons/whatever think twice before materializing behind your lines.

Also, remember that Butchers are immune to Poison. Splitting your Butchers off to hunt/threaten Skinks (after informing your opponent of their immunities) can do wonders for keeping your flanks clean. Chameleons are particularly vulnerable to one “roaming” Butcher deployed behind your main line.

Alternatively, use your Trappers. Not necessarily to shoot Skinks, but to form a skirmish line blocking fire to one of your flanks/units. [Counter-scouting is well and good, except they get eaten by the nearest Swarm and the Lizzies have more Scouts – and Chameleons – anyway.] A line of 8-10 Gnoblars around flank/rear of your Big Bad Irongut unit will do nicely. Regular Gnoblars can also be used in this – in a conga-line type formation (i.e. 1-rank 20-wide or 1-wide 20-ranked) – and they can shoot, too.

Finally, keep your focus. Killing Skinks is well and good, but you’ll only win by killing Saurus/Slann/etc. So long as you can keep Skinks off your back though the first 3-4 turns, and don’t make the mistake of stranding your non-Butcher characters (or your Gorgers) out in the open, you should do fine.

Jaguar Saurus – all armies have problems with this one, and not much can be done about it other than physically blocking him off with sacrifice units. Best thing to do is sometimes to just focus on the remainder of the Lizzie army, which the Ogres can actually afford to do. [Brets, on the other hand…] Alternatively, tempt the git into charging your Tyrant and/or a big unit with a BSB. Grind him to dust.

Salamanders – these boys will hurt you. True, they only wound on 5s, but a unit will put out an average of 15 auto-hits (5 wounds at -1 save) per turn with a 21” effective range (6” move + 15” shoot). They will _kill_ Belcher units. They will also devastate your main units unless neutralized.

In the last 2 of my 4 recent games against Lizards, I actually kept shooting enemy Sallies with the Scraplauncher, aiming to kill their Skink crew (and cause a Panic check). This is a plausible solution (in one of the games the unit was forced back for a turn, buying me time to crush the rest of the enemy army), but is not a full-proof solution by any means.

The key to shutting down Sallies with any army is to get them into combat. Unfortunately, I don’t recall whether they can Stand-and-Shoot (I do not believe so, but don’t have my book with me). In any case, _in_ combat, Sallies, as Skirmishers, must effectively put Sallies on the corners and fill in the “middle” of their line with WS2 T2 Skinks (see Skirmisher rules as to why they must do this). All an attacker would have to do is direct the attacks at the Skinks, and rack up easy CR.

Beyond that, take your lumps and try to offer them sacrificial targets to shoot at. Not much else you can do.

Bottom line - these are but a few quick thoughts, based in part on personal experiences. Lizzies were, are, and will continue to be an antithetical army to Ogres (i.e. one they were not built to fight), though they _are_ beatable. [Unless run by a top-knotch Jeff Leong type player, in which case you're aiming for a draw.]Conservative play focused on VP preservation is highly encouraged, though Lizards _are_ better at it.

As an avid lizardmen player, my advice on a magic-heavy lizard force would be to try and minimize as much as possible the big stuff (easier said than done).

scrolls and any magic items that would either shut down the magic phase entirely (similar to the lizardmen cube) would be crucial.

those gorgers seem crazy freaky, i still wonder why my opponent does not take one of those suckers.

Okay...well...Skinks are easy as long as they're away from the Slaan, I've found. Psychology can work against them. Otherwise they're just  t2, so bonecruncher can work quite well against them.

And if he uses them as bait, then just send expendable units against them.

The Slaan is a huge points sink. Take that out, you're in a pretty good position (easier said than done, but I've knocked a second gen down to just two wounds in one round of combat).

If you have a hunter, it'll be use against the Stegadon. But then again, you can always try to divert that bad boy until you're ready to deal with it.

Saurus are easy. You get the charge with some ironguts (and with a character), you're more than likely in good hands there. A flank charge makes it all the better, but I've beaten Saurus with just the frontal charge before (although toothcracker works well here, as a backup).

I play a southlands lizard army.  My army  is absolutely lethal vs OK. i have 2 main points to give:

never forget how deadly a poison swarm is. esp if they charge you through cover.

But a skink armies greatest fear is fear itself. javs have short range, and getting in close to fear causing creatures when you have only leadership 5 (on 3 dice) is a dangerous game to play.