Ogre Kingdoms Vs Dwarfs

Share your tips on how to deal with Dwarf armies here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

If there is still any lingering doubt,Lord/shieldbearers are definitely US3 and thus immune to killing blow.(Dwarf book p.29)

I am wondering what this Thorek Gunline army is that I've heard so much about.  I was planning on going to at least one tourney in the next couple months and want to have at least some idea of the cheesiest armies I'm going to face.

Well, the Thorek gunline is very evil. Mainly because of the anvil. The anvil's strength does not come from the hits it causes or making dwarves move, but by it's ability to slow down movement. This gives the dwarven guns more time to shoot you to death. If the anvil dies, you have a good chance...maybe. But if your opponent is smart then he will slow down your hammer units to the speed of a dwarf. And speed/dwarf is a paradox.

At Bolg, Yes, the Lord with Shieldbearers is Immune to Killingblow. Just like ogres.

I played a 1000 point game the other day against a dwarf player, I found that his unit of slayers were more or less helpless against my bruiser. While they did hit and wound on fours, I had given him the gut maw and heavy armour making a 4+ save which, with modifiers became a 6+ save. His wardsave of 5+ from the wyrdstone necklace and the 4+ regeneration from gut magic; they took six combat rounds before they eventually took him down (3 giant slayers suck), but the greatest part was watching my opponent when my sword-gnoblars killed a total of five of these expensive guys.

I was wondering though if anyone had any advice as to how to get their gorger into combat. I charged through his cannon (which fortunately couldn's shoot it due to a misfire) and then charged the flank of one unit of his gunners. When he finally overran them, he was placed right in front of his second unit of them and shot to bits.

Cheers

so you took out a cannon and a unit of thunderers with a 75 point model and you think he's not doing enough?!?!?!
- I guess there's no pleasing some people

seriously, gorgers are disruption tools only - and cheap as chips for what you get.  It sounds liek your doing the right kind of things with it also.  One note though - gorgers can't overrun (too busy eating) but must always pursue (they don't let food get away).

Playing the ogre army for the first time in a few days.  Don't have time to plan and assemble an army myself and so I am going to use one of the four recommended 1500 pt ogre armies from the Army Reference.  I am going to be facing artillery heavy dwarfs.  Which of these armies -- http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=2413b9f0e2b30e23ca37463144a13fa0&topic=2956.0 --
is best suited to take on dwarfs? 
1. Grob Skullbiter
2. Superarchimegalon
3. Wildcard
or,
4. Ikim?
Any feeback, including advice on tatics for any of these armies when facing the dwarfs, would be very much appreciated.
cheers
Elfivore

Sorry about that, I meant pursue you're quite right Wildcard. I'm still getting used to all of the terminology of fantasy.

Hey this came up in a game vs. dwarves last night.  I blew through his bolt thrower crew with my yhetees and he used the rune of immolation to inflict 4 wounds on them.  Since the hits are "allocated as shooting" we played it that they had to take a panic test (which of course they failed).  But under the psychology rules it says not to take panic tests in the combat phase (which I looked up after the game).  Did we play this right?

Well If you follow the rule by the letter then you shouldn´t have taken the test, scince, like you said, it was in the close combat phase. But the rules text on page 49 also states; that the 25% casualties tules is intended as a "catch-all" rule when it comes to different circumstances where a unit take heavy losses (the exception is made becouse in the CC phase you take breaktest instead and this exception is rather silly though becouse your not affcted by panic when in CC).

My freind plays a heavy shooting dwarf army, other than gnoblar screens and traper distractions whats a good way of getting down the feild safe?

He also seems to have a stupid amount of luck on his armour saves, irongut weapons seem to bounce off of him, (hehehe, except his ironbrakes always roll 1s and 2s)

Hi Members,
    Here's some tips I'd like to share with you if you know you are to face a Dwarves' gunline army:

1.a) Always set up terrain. But never ever use hills. Go with forests. Skip swamps too.
  b)  Set the terrain more toward the middle of the board in "no-mans-lands" rather than the deployment zone.
   c) Choose the side (if you can) that is best for the Dwarf rather than best for you. Deny him. For example: The Dwarf sets up 3 hills, 2 hills on one side of the board and one hill on the other. The Ogre should choose the side with two hills as his own.

2. Skip the butchers and go with Bruisers and Hunter/Sabertusks. Give them all the Longstrider. Use Yheetees and a Rhinox. Why? Because on a standard 48 inch wide board with 12 inch deployment zones there is 24 inches between armies. A March and a Charge move for most of your troops will only be 24 inches. Not enough to reach the shooters in two turns. But with 7 inch movements (8 inches for the cats) a march and a charge will be 28 inches. That's enough to reach their guns and prevent an additional round of ugly firing.

3. Blocks (20) of Dwarf troops with full command (or any army's) will need combination (one frontal and one flank) charges to break. They already have a +5 advantage in CR.

4. Keep you General in the best area to use his Leadership in break tests.

Sandy

I just tried out a gorger against my friend. I was kinda hazy on using one, but it did awsome.then again it was also lucky. Came in on turn two, ate an organ gun, scared of a gunline, scared off another gunline, and hlped my tyrant take down his Thane. I still lost but the gorger made up for alot, almost tied the game with him!!!

yhetees are good against dwarf armies as they easily out manovre everything in the army (except the gyrocopter of course)

a good unit of gnoblar trappers (usually 10 for me) can hold down or even take out those gyrocopters

Gnoblar trappers are great for all the normal reasons as well as the fact that Dwarfs hate greenskins so must pursue, this is great for opening up a hole in the line or exposing a units flanks.  I deployed my trappers in a game a few weeks ago and Dwarf player managed to shoot twice with his Thunderers in the whole six turns.  An invaluable unit that I never leave without.

So true: gnoblars are my biggest problem with ogres.  I run multiple oathstones which, when working together, are almost inpenetrable.  Alas, my ogre opponet has learned to charge me with gnoblar units.  I won't set an oathstone for gnoblars - too small a threat to lock in my expensive unit over.  Unfortunately, by not doing so I am forced to pursue when the gnobs break . . . and they always break.  This draws my oathstone unit away from the other units that support it (bsb, longbeards, countercharge units, etc) allowing my opponent to tackle it on his terms, not mine.  I've found my best defence against this tactic is to blow the snot out of the gnobs, keeping them from getting to my lines, but that is retarded as well: firepower is for ogres and for those flippin' yhettees and shouldn't be wasted on the little twerps.

- Wheggi

i dont know how well block gnoblars will be at screening, seeing that they are going to slow you down and eventually just pop anyway.

i think maneaters would be an expensive, albeit better option. also, if you do properly place terrain and have forests in the middle, you can easily bounce between them to avoid cannon fire. also, if you employ trappers, they will be ahead of your army and can properly set up a skirmisher screen, making dwarves hit on 4s or 5s gives you a better chance at surviving.

gorgers will be a solid bet though as they can statistically get 1 kill and probably get dealt none back by a standard crewman. then you will outnumber and he will autobreak i believe, unless the auto break thing is minimum unit str 5, which i dont think it is. he'll auto break, and you can pursue into another gun if hes on a hill, or into a runesmith, or lord/thane, thorek, thunderers or quarrelers.

if 1 gorger manages to kill of any piece of artillery, he has gotten his points back. a bolt thrower usually has 2 runes of penetrating on it, so itll be even cost. stone throwers are low hundreds,, the others are middle hundreds.

that would be a good plan for the terrain thats what i did until they changed the deployment rules. we can only set up terrain 12 inch radius from the center of the table if i read correctly.

Stick a big wood somewhere in the middle of the table but to one side that way you can safely move your trappers through it out of harms way as soon as any off his troops are near the wood put them within 2" of the edge that way they are in sight but still in cover, dwarfs have to charge gnobblers flee, dwarfs stuck in the wood and out of the game for atleast two turns. Additionally, if you have a hunter and his cats well placed, you should be able to rally the trappers no problem and maybe, with luck, charge the stunties too! Haven't played dwarves yet but, this is a tactic that I am planning to use when I do.

The last 2 games I played vs. dwarves I had the trappers in some woods as close as I could get them to the dwarf lines and on my left flank.  In both games the trappers jumped out of the wood, threw sharp stuff at the stunties (to little/no effect) - got charged by a unit of dwarf warriors (longbeards in one case) and promptly fled through the woods miring said warrior unit for the rest of the game.

trappers might not kill much, but they earn their points back in lots of ways

And another point, many dwarf players will take master rune of grungi and put many of his war machines within its range.  So not only are you facing war machines that are more accurate than yours, but they also have a 5+ ward save.

I normally do this with a Unit of Longbeards so that I have rerolls on failed panic tests, and a last line of Defense since the Longbeards can take up to 50 points in runes on their standard.

Also depending on how many war machines you take some times you can't help giving up 2 for 1... hehe  I personally can max everything number wise at 2500 points though the point wise I run out of space with my rares if you count Gyros which are sort of a flying war machine.

Also be aware of combat listed Dwarfs. Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at and with good WS and T they are tough little troops, with the only disadvantages being slow speed and lack of multiple attacks on their units (excluding Slayers).

Combat oriented Dwarf players with low costing war machines are a tough match to tackle. A 160 point cannon will do the same damage as a 105 point cannon, with only a artillery reroll dividing the two in reliability. With that cost, they could run 3 for the price of 2, which is far better deal. This allows them to focus on running more combat blocks; with Miner units providing outflanking support (especially with the use of AoD).

In order to counter this, we apply the same tactics, using cheap artillery hunters (such as Sabertusks) and counter battering with Ironblasters. Ironblasters are great at this, but also don't discount the use of Stonehorns. Although expensive, they can absorb alot of cannon ball shots, protecting your Ogre blocks from harm, and if he decides to ignore them, he will have two unhurt monsters rampaging into his troops, which he still won't have tons of. He can't play the 500 man skaven list with dwarfs, so he will suffer far more with 7-10 Dwarfs dying a turn in H2H.

Also be aware of combat listed Dwarfs. Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at and with good WS and T they are tough little troops, with the only disadvantages being slow speed and lack of multiple attacks on their units (excluding Slayers).

Combat oriented Dwarf players with low costing war machines are a tough match to tackle. A 160 point cannon will do the same damage as a 105 point cannon, with only a artillery reroll dividing the two in reliability. With that cost, they could run 3 for the price of 2, which is far better deal. This allows them to focus on running more combat blocks; with Miner units providing outflanking support (especially with the use of AoD).

In order to counter this, we apply the same tactics, using cheap artillery hunters (such as Sabertusks) and counter battering with Ironblasters. Ironblasters are great at this, but also don't discount the use of Stonehorns. Although expensive, they can absorb alot of cannon ball shots, protecting your Ogre blocks from harm, and if he decides to ignore them, he will have two unhurt monsters rampaging into his troops, which he still won't have tons of. He can't play the 500 man skaven list with dwarfs, so he will suffer far more with 7-10 Dwarfs dying a turn in H2H.

I believe the phrase I am looking for is, "Off the Cuff", this I mean it sounds like you are speaking off the cuff.  I say this because a lot of what you wrote has either been said already but with a different result, or doesn't pass the smell test at all.  Let me give a few examples  below...


To find a way to sort of match up Ogres to Dwarfs, you can either make Dwarfs cost three times as much so you have the same number of attacks, or you can divide Ogres by 3 so you h 1 Wound and in most cases 1 Attack.  Then you can compare point costs and stat lines easier.  In this case I want to divide Ogres by 3 thirds which will not be painful as it sounds.  Look below some....


There are many more Ogre units we could divide into amounts to get them to a single wound and compare them, but none of the rest are really going after units with the CR that Dwarfs are normally throwing around.  I also want to go over the few points I would agree on, those are; we still need units with scout, ambush, or crazy speed at worse to in any fight to pop unit reactions, or go after war machines.  The other thing I agree with is that Stonehorns are perfect cannon ball bait, and as  Dwarf player myself I would not shoot them with a cannon ball unless I had too.   I would run a Slayer Hero out into its charge range and watch it fail it's leadership and charge it.  I would turn the model slightly so that the Stonehorn adjusted to meet my front arc and left a flank charge on the next turn.  I would trade 50 points to occupy 250+ Hunter if any for a turn, and with luck I would mess up future charges the Ogre player had with blocked LoS due to the Stonehorn's new position.   Stonehorns are good imo when used right, and that is about turn 3 + after things are locked in combat.

You also made the commit that Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at, and I would agree, but at what cost is the question.  The difference of WS 4 or 5 is nothing to an Ogre player, if you are a 3+ for the most part we don't care we need a 4 to hit you if you are a normal troop.   Very rare is a unit WS 7... the only time that comes to mind is against VC.   As far as the rest of the Dwarf stat line, a S3 or S4 is fairly average, a T4 is nice, but many armies have that, and S6 doesn't care if you are T1 or T4. Also 1 attack is average, a I2 is lower than average, and LD9 well that is pretty nice.   However, when you pick up handfuls of models unless you are stubborn your LD doesn't matter.

Ogres do not have a S3 Ogre model, we are all S4 +.  I am not counting Gnoblars since they are in another case by themselves, and I would match them up point to point, and I bet Dwarfs would lose every time either by running away or being stuck in combat for 6+ sides of combat.  If you are stuck in combat for 6+ sides of combat and nothing else hits you, you are super lucky imo.


Lets get to those comparisons now. hehe


Working off the base costs

Ogres are 10 points each they have Light Armor
Ironguts are 14.33 points each they have Heavy Armor and Great Weapon.
Leadbeltchers are 14.33 points each they have Light Armor, and shoot an average of 1.17 shots each.
Maneaters are 16.67 points each they have Light Armor, they have 1.34 attacks, and have a ton of special rules and ways to be equipped.


Warriors are 9 points each, they have Heavy Armor
Longbeards are 12 points each, they have Heavy Armor and are S4
Crossbowmen are 11 points each (if I remember right the book is not next to me atm), they have Light Armor, shoot once per turn, and have Greatweapon upgrades.
Once per army you can take one of the three units above and make them Rangers for 1 point more per model giving them scout
Thunders are 14 points each, they have Light Armor, and shoot once per turn.
Hammers are 12 points each, they have Heavy Armor, Great Weapons, they are S4, and Stubborn and maybe immune to fear if with a Dwarf Lord.
Ironbreakers are 13 points each with a 3+ armor and are S4
Miners are 11 points each they have Light Armor, sadly only are S3, but they have Great Weapons.
Slayers are 11 points each they have no armor, but they are Unbreakable, their Strength equals your Toughness up to 6, and they choose to use their weapons as Hand Weapon and Off Hand, or as a Great Weapon add +2 Strength to their swing.  So they are always wounding you on a 4+ or a 2+ basically.

So when you look at the differences between Dwarfs and Ogres, you can see that they are slightly more survivable than Ogres, because more units have Heavy Armor, and they are slightly cheaper, but what you do not see they are no where as Kill as Ogres are.  None of those units get Monstrous Infantry  Stomp attacks, and Dwarfs they can be hit by these attack, and they do not get Impact hits.  Also because we have more than one wound, when they take a wound they lose a model if we take a wound we do not lose a model, we have to lose three wounds than we lose three attacks.  How often do you find yourself near the end of combat with two wounds on a model, that is huge against anyone else who does not have that.

So basically by the time you make Dwarfs slightly more killy, they cost +2 points per model, making them all but Warriors and Hammers cost more than all but the Maneaters which pays a lot of points for special abilities.  Even then they still are not as killy as an Ogre is, and we have spells that more than make up whether you get the charge off due to the AoD.  Also the AoD still has some punch with the Rune of Wrath, the one that does either a d6 or d3 units take 2d6 S4 attacks.  The sad part is, if you role below the score of 2+ or 4+ you are now putting this 325 to nearly 500 point model at risk of exploding.  So if you are rolling for an ancient rune of power so you can rock those coming at you and cutting their movement in half or knocking them out of the sky you need a 4+.  If you roll only a 3, now you have a 1 in 6 chance of losing your anvil, or another words if you pushed it hard each game you have 8% chance per round to lose it, which works out to be a 48% per game of losing it because the Dwarf player rolled bad.  I think my odds are higher than that btw. hehe




Also an after thought, I would never run a Stonehorn into a unit of anything unless it was less than 14 models, without some sort of support.  Logic Hammer A Stonehorn has 3d3 impact hits, and if it lives it gets d6 thunderstomp attacks, and if it rolls above 10 inches it can get +3 impact hits.   Lets say it has a lot of luck and gets the +3 impact hits, and gets it's Thunderstomp when I figure this math out.  3d3+3 d6 on average that is 11.75 attacks at S6, so probably needs 2s to wound, so 9.87 wounds.   Lets round that to 10 wounds, but consider it could be less, if you have 14 or less models than on average you should have less than 5 models left alive, if you have more than 5 models they are steadfast.  I personally side on the side of caution on this, as being held in place is a horrible place to be.  That is why I expect the Rider to pick up the extra 1 or 2 rolled by the mount, and I do not go for 13 or less.  On average he is going to kill 1 to 2 on his own.

I personally would take the rider with a Harpoon Launcher for free, and let him spend the first three turns shooting targets at a far, than move in and crash into something (S6 at 36 inch range doing d3 wounds is nothing to sneeze at)


In short I would put any equal point Ogre unit against any equal point Dwarf unit, and expect to win or in certain match ups like against Hammers and Crossbowmen weaken them to the point that they are no longer effective against us.  Those are the two strong units that Dwarfs have, everything else is not as cool as their points are expensive.

Also Dwarfs greatest ability is their diversity in war machines, as they get more out there for less than all of the other armies, however in 8th ed many games require you to move, terrain has negative effects, and there is more of it.   So play 8th the way it was intended and Dwarfs have some major issues until they get their new book imo.

I do not fear Dwarf blocks, I do fear their total shooting lists, as they still can do a lot.

See, but people already explained why shooty Dwarfs have a disadvantage against us, via gorgers, scouting man eaters, Ironblasters etc.

I have played Dwarfs for quite a few years and I see where total shooty and total combat Dwarf armies have their advantages and disadvantages, so by playing both extremes along side more balanced lists I can see where Dwarfs have the most advantages and disadvantages, so don't disregard me as in terms as to how Dwarfs work. You can spam Dwarf hero slayers if you like, I see too many of them as easy points, and with sniper eaters they are hardly going to be good redirects as you say.

Now I do understand that heavy shooting lists are brutal to tackle, but fundamentally they will be weaker model count wise compared to a more rounded list, and can suffer from AOE spells if allowed to get off. Now you can theory hammer all you want, but be aware in either scenario, it will be important to see who goes first. First turn can define whether or not a couple of his warmachines or your troops/monsters stay around for your go. The one advantage Ogre players have that Dwarfs lack is moble cannons, so the risk of losing them decreases depending on terrain deployment. You also have to factor the terrain itself when determining how fights and outcomes may resolve (unless open ground with a couple normal hills with normal trees with one normal building is how the games are run, which is boring and lacks the fundamental use that magical terrain is suppose to provide). I played many games in which dictation of terrain turned a losing game into a victory on my behalf. So factors like this cannot be ignored when playing either side of the table.

See, but people already explained why shooty Dwarfs have a disadvantage against us, via gorgers, scouting man eaters, Ironblasters etc.

I have played Dwarfs for quite a few years and I see where total shooty and total combat Dwarf armies have their advantages and disadvantages, so by playing both extremes along side more balanced lists I can see where Dwarfs have the most advantages and disadvantages, so don't disregard me as in terms as to how Dwarfs work. You can spam Dwarf hero slayers if you like, I see too many of them as easy points, and with sniper eaters they are hardly going to be good redirects as you say.

Now I do understand that heavy shooting lists are brutal to tackle, but fundamentally they will be weaker model count wise compared to a more rounded list, and can suffer from AOE spells if allowed to get off. Now you can theory hammer all you want, but be aware in either scenario, it will be important to see who goes first. First turn can define whether or not a couple of his warmachines or your troops/monsters stay around for your go. The one advantage Ogre players have that Dwarfs lack is moble cannons, so the risk of losing them decreases depending on terrain deployment. You also have to factor the terrain itself when determining how fights and outcomes may resolve (unless open ground with a couple normal hills with normal trees with one normal building is how the games are run, which is boring and lacks the fundamental use that magical terrain is suppose to provide). I played many games in which dictation of terrain turned a losing game into a victory on my behalf. So factors like this cannot be ignored when playing either side of the table.

No offense mate. The issue I am seeing is the main difference between my post and yours, in mine I showed where I agreed and did not agree, but then I further went to explain my position.  I am not sure where you are coming down on any subject.  In general, "Generalities", are not as helpful as detailed explanations.

You picked out the fact that I like using Slayer Heroes, I normally play with 1 to 3 that is only 50 to 150 points, and if I can trade 50 points to stop a charge for a turn that is perfect.  Do they have an affect against a unit by themselves, I would say unless it is an extremely weak unit no, but they are toughness 5 with two wounds with a high WS.  So they have to hit and wound twice, or you are stuck there even if I lose combat.  That is the value I see with them.  Also if a unit or a sniper wishes to shoot them, I'd say go for it, that is something else they are not shooting.   My point about taking a ton of them, was to combat certain issues and is not something I would do in a GT or friendly game, 99% of the time I would not do that.


Anyways, best of luck to you, and kill another Dwarf for me.

Ironblasters will nearly always get the first shot off against another gunline because of their ability to fire on the move, letting them hide behind things in case you do not get first turn.  Most Dwarves around here who go full frontal male nudity gunline typically run two cannons, two grudge throwers, and two organ guns.  They then back this up with two semi-unbreakable combat blocks, a block of shooters of some sort, and maybe one unit of miners.  They also bring enough magic defense to choke a rhino to death, which is largely irrelevant when you can just 6 dice chuck it and f--- it when you want to push a spell through.  Snipereaters, if you actually run them, really dork this list over even worse.  Popping 6 war machines with two IBlasters and Poison Pistoleaters over the course of the game is easily done, with even average rolls, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of god rolls.

I mean, really, I play good people and do well when I do.  Facing gunline armies with double IBlaster is just plain comically easy, but maybe the normally good people I face do not know how to cope with a moving cannon thats immune to normal war machine hunters?

Ironblasters will nearly always get the first shot off against another gunline because of their ability to fire on the move, letting them hide behind things in case you do not get first turn.  Most Dwarves around here who go full frontal male nudity gunline typically run two cannons, two grudge throwers, and two organ guns.  They then back this up with two semi-unbreakable combat blocks, a block of shooters of some sort, and maybe one unit of miners.  They also bring enough magic defense to choke a rhino to death, which is largely irrelevant when you can just 6 dice chuck it and f--- it when you want to push a spell through.  Snipereaters, if you actually run them, really dork this list over even worse.  Popping 6 war machines with two IBlasters and Poison Pistoleaters over the course of the game is easily done, with even average rolls, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of god rolls.

I mean, really, I play good people and do well when I do.  Facing gunline armies with double IBlaster is just plain comically easy, but maybe the normally good people I face do not know how to cope with a moving cannon thats immune to normal war machine hunters?

Here is what I mean about godly roles.

Ignoring Organ Guns, since they won't be in the artillery exchange fight.

Using your example, Dwarf Army has 2 cannons and 2 Grudge Throwers.  If they are going full gunline most of the time they will have engineers for 4 wounds.  Most of them will be within the range of 5+ ward save.  They will all be more accurate with rerolling of the artillery dice. 

Ogre Army has 2 Ironblasters.  They will have a greater chance to misfire.  Bounce is accurate of course.  Their one main advantage is 5 wounds instead of 4.  But hey don't have a ward save and there is less of them.

The only way they can hide the first turn is if you have a piece of terrain helping you out (namely, building or a hill as with TLOS most forests don't do enough to block a shot).  Even if you do have this, and get the first shot, on average you will maybe kill one war machine.  You will then have three shooting back at you, which will kill at least one.  Then you are 1 vs. 3, which on average won't even kill one of theirs, so you will then be 0 vs. 3.  And this is IF you get the right terrain to get the first shot.  If you don't, you might not kill any.  I don't feel like doing the hard math right now but a cursory look will get you there.

Sure, you might get lucky/godly rolls and kill two war machines before they fire, have them do nothing to you, and then kill two more on the next turn.  But it's not likely.

I didn't say Ironblasters are useless.  They are good support as you move up.  What I thought was a bad move was to sit back and try to do an artillery exchange before moving forward.  Use ironblasters in conjunction with an assault, not in lieu of one.

I want to agree with Datalink7, but I also want to add another point to that that is slightly different.  By Datalink7's math which I agree with that is the 3rd turn, but then our melee troops are in combat.  Even if both Ironblasters die, I would gladly trade 340 points of my team to get me into melee.

The problem with Dwarfs which is mostly hinted at here, is it is hard to balance them in a way that allows you to have enough shooting to make it worth it while having enough melee to survive what reaches you.  That is why you hear about total shooting or total melee armies doing better.  So a shooting army that only takes 6 war machines is doomed to have a rough time while playing Dwarfs.

Thunders and Crowssbowmen are core, so no need to skip those points toward shooting, and Crossbowmen can use Great Weapons so they are normally seen over Thunders which have stronger guns though shorter range.  You can max out your points with Special and Rares if you wish to continue being total shooting, so everything has a gun.  AoD are popular with them to slow enemies down, and do some damage, but they are a huge risk too.   However, effective lists like this will be rarely seen out side of an Ard' Boyz and few people have 6 cannons, 6 grudge throwers, 6 bolt throwers, 4 organ guns and 4 flame cannons, or basically enough to max out your slots.  I come close with having everything but the grudge thowers, I have 4 of them, and flame cannons which I have 2 of. heh

Xoan gets it. 

Of course, the Dwarf player is the one who needs the godlike rolls, because stone throwers basically only hit center on 1 in 3 shots, which is why as the Ogre player I always focus on the cannons first.  You are also ignoring that the Ironblasters can actually hide behind walls (stops one shot) or even ogre units.  The Ironblasters also only misfire 1 in 6, but are stupidly accurate when they don't.  Meanwhile the poison pistol maneaters are also knocking off a war machine a turn until you engage them in combat, which is not the most desirable fight for the dwarves.

But lets say the dice gods are with you and you drop both Ironblasters by the end of turn two.  At this point, you have been dumping bullets into war machines, leaving the combat units intact.  Meanwhile, you have likely lost anywhere from 3-6 war machines yourself.  If you take the ward save BSB, its actually even worse because now you are huddling stuff together and giving the Ogre player two for one shots, while putting your entire army in one tight spot to be bum rushed.  Meanwhile, that Mournfang cav unit you ignored is probably mowing down a block a turn.  In the most ideal situations, the gunline dwarves are still at a huge disadvantage.

Combat Dwarves, on the other hand, are a totally different animal and on very even footing with Ogres, especially when backed by an Anvil and some Miners.  But there is something about that army that makes people who play it run it like they are playing 40k.....

Good lord Bulls and Mournfangs are so awesome in CC against Dwarves.

Yesterday, my 11 Bulls + BSB (4 wide) were charged by 25 Rangers with Great Weapons. I killed 7 before they attacked, 4 more with stomps while he put only 5 wounds on my unit (18A, 10 hits, 8W, saved 2 with parries and one with the armour save of my BSB). Even with the charge, he was at snake eyes, and lost his 447 pts unit.

My 4 Mournfangs (+ Dragonhide) trashed a unit of 20 Hammerers (5 wide) in one round before the Stomps (pretty good rolls from Bulls though).

This is really a matchup where I don't see any use for Ironguts. Bulls strike first, do tons of damage, and take Dwarves' shooting way better than Ironguts as they simply have more bodies. You don't need any Magic Standard in a unit as you shouldn't even play a Slaughtermaster anyway.

I havent had much trouble with dwarves in 8th but the one peice of advice i can impart is watch out for those charges!  Having not played a ton of dwarves for a while i got charged an embarrasing amount of times in my first few games against them in 8th.

3+2d6 is not that much different than 6+2d6 so dont get greedy!  I was shocked at the new somewhat speedy dwarves!

You're right, I got caught out like that once. However, the extra 3 inches is significant when it comes to aligning your distance. If we assume people are happy to try a 7+ charge as it happens over 50% of the time, then Dwarfs want to be 10" from you at the start of their turn. However, Ogres by the same logic wouldn't mind being within 13". This makes the Dwarf charge a 10+ - a much more unlikely prospect.

Ogres should still dictate the charges against Dwarfs.

You're right, I got caught out like that once. However, the extra 3 inches is significant when it comes to aligning your distance. If we assume people are happy to try a 7+ charge as it happens over 50% of the time, then Dwarfs want to be 10" from you at the start of their turn. However, Ogres by the same logic wouldn't mind being within 13". This makes the Dwarf charge a 10+ - a much more unlikely prospect.

Ogres should still dictate the charges against Dwarfs.

Absolutely, my opponent really just got some nasty rolls one turn and surged forward 16" on one unit and 14" on the other.

Absolutely, my opponent really just got some nasty rolls one turn and surged forward 16" on one unit

How?  Dwarves are rolling 13's on 2d6 now?

Hah 15", bad fingers...

I've banged my head against my friend's Dwarves a couple of times, so coming here to post thoughts and ask for more advice. I've seen two main list variations.

'Furgil's List', which comes from our friends-in-gaming enemies-in-army-choice over at Bugmans. Basicly, a horde of hammerers, two hordes of great weapon warriors, 2 cannons, a grudge thrower, 2 organ guns. Some dwarf 'Hahaha, you invested in magic' runelords and some annoying unkillable character. I'll dig out the link to the army post on Bugman's if someone wants to see it.

The Anvil of Doom. A similar list to the above, but the runelord is now hanging out with an Anvil of Doom. Only two real hordes and some other shooty dwarves hanging out with 2 cannons, 2 organ guns and a grude thrower. At least one of my core groups/characters gets slowed by the anvil on the first couple of turns and then get some random dwarves charges on the later turns.


Magic is worthless, I've only had success in one magic phase total. Otherwise, between Miscasts and dwarven dispelling the magic phase has largely been worthless. Heavens did perform well, though.


In both cases, I've no success if my ironblasters don't perform well. If I can get his grudgethrower (his perpetual mvp, I hate that damned thing-it just chips away too many models on the way in) or maybe one or more other war machines I'm okay and generally win. Without winning the shooting phase I'm toast before I get into close combat. I don't have any mournfang but I'm not sure they'd be anything other than a higher priority target for his war machine barrage.

I tried a few variations on Maneaters, had a decent amount of success with scouts + brace of pistols. Staying out of range of his Organ Guns helped, but Maneaters vs Hammerers didn't work that great, and the shooting was rather mediocre. My Gorger tends to get a face full of organ gun when he shows up deploying him further away just gets him a horde of Great weapons in the face.



I certainly need my ironblasters to earn their points against these lists. Mournfangs might help but I can't imagine they'll do anything other than get shot at before they get into combat. My Sabertusks can't redirect units that don't want to move and lose against dwarf war machine crews, gnoblars are really just wasted points against dwarves who hate them and won't charge trappers.

Any advice here?

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins, although my thought on gnoblars is that they provide excellent cover for the troops trailing behind. They would theoretically be providing hard cover vs. all of their guns and crossbows. No help against cannons or stone throwers of course... I would not even bother making them trappers. Just small units of 10, provinding simple screens to trailing leadbelchers/IGs/Bulls.

I am getting ready to play a dwarf gunline in my campaign and this was a tactic I was planning on implementing.

Thoughts?

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins

The Dwarf book specifically lists gnoblars as a type of Greenskin. The iffy bit is whether things that contain gnoblars, such as our two chariots, also count as greenskins.

It's one for the Dwarf FAQ really

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins

The Dwarf book specifically lists gnoblars as a type of Greenskin. The iffy bit is whether things that contain gnoblars, such as our two chariots, also count as greenskins.

It's one for the Dwarf FAQ really

Either way, I'm not too concerned with my gnoblars getting into combat & dying. That's why they were created! 

i just learned that i'll be facing a dwarf gunline on my first game in a tournament... my first though about beating his cannon is deploying as large as the terrain allows me, negating any chance he has to kill 2 or more ogres.

i think its a pretty viable strategy. It also work against catapult, bolt thrower, basically, anything they have that can annoy us to no end.

Keep in mind cannons do not need to see you to shoot you.  Also stonethrowers can be fired blind if you wish

Keep in mind cannons do not need to see you to shoot you.  Also stonethrowers can be fired blind if you wish

yeah, but its alot harder to catch 4-5 ogres that way. Cannon can shoot you, but if you are, for example, 9x1, he'll only be able to kill 1, instead of the standard 3x3.... obviously, when cc comes, crown of command will be very important to be able to stay there and reform for some more attacks, but i think its a pretty viable strategy.

Yah but that footprint is kind of painful

If the game is 2k or more, I usually make two warmachine "croups" each consisting: cannon with runes, grudge thrower with runes, organ gun, 10 - 20 quarrels and master engineer. Organ gun and quarrels (with gw's) protect from abushing units and scouts. Cannon can re-roll one missfire and do D6 wounds if grudge thrower does not roll missfire. Then master engineer will re-roll that one. Grudge thrower also has +1S and ability to re-roll scatter. To be even more reliable, I also take basic engineers. These "croups" may have also bolt throwers with engineers and runes. Also other "group" has runesmith or runelord with em. Getting in cc with ambushers or scouts is hard and if u manage to do so, you face war machine croups of 4, master engineer (with good armour and 2 S6 attacks), quarrels with gw's and the runelord/runesmith (with good armour and 2 S6 attacks). I deploy them on hills I possible.

This gunline does a lot of damage on anything and if the enemy gets in cc, there are horde of gw warriors and longbeards waiting for em. I also like to run a unit of 20-25 miners with a very angry thane

Haven't lost a game. Not going to

My own experience supports the MMU Ogre style.  The footprint of 6 Ogres is actually short enough that a cannon shot from the other side of the table has a decent chance of overshooting.  Artillery is hideously effective against our massive beasts (though the Stonehorn can take a hit and keep coming) and I expect it would be equally hideous against *-Star units.

Cannons are actually surprisingly poor against MI units because they MUST kill a model to continue bouncing.

The chance of a cannonball killing your typical RnF ogre is as follows.

(5/6)(2/3)=55.5%

That is a 44% chance of a cannonball just bouncing off the Ogres gut, and that is per ogre too.

If the Ogres have any type of save(trollguts, ironcurse icon) the chance of the cannonball doing major damage drops considerably.

Cannons objectivly suck against ranked MI.

I think that a 55% mortality rate does not exactly equal "objectively suck," but YMMV.

When you think about it, it basically boils down to a 50/50 toss up weather or not the cannonball can do any meaningful damage.

The chance of the cannon actually killing multiple ogres is poor, hence why it "objectivly sucks"

Compare it to say, Chaos Warriors. The cannonball kills on 2s and it still bounces through even if it fails to wound one of them.

It certaintly isn't the ideal weapon to use against ogres. Standard BS based shooting will average more damage.

This is very well talking about dwarf costs and rules but people seem to be forgetting that the dawi have yet to be updated and when they do the majority of what has been said on here will have to be scrapped as the dwarfs get new rules new points and new units the last part of new units is the scary part as if the people at GW decide to give the stunties more warmachines then we might be in danger  Oh and also dont forget all those runes that warmachines and heros can take

The best plan for dealing with dwarves is to hold back with the bulk of your melee forces (bulls,iron guts and the like) while raining magic, cannonballs and thinling  weapons upon the war machines and ranged units while charging in with any mourn fang,stone horns or thunder tusks  you might have. Then lead the rest of your forces in an assault (with your tyrant and bruisers of course) and finish off the remaining dwarves.

The best plan for dealing with dwarves is to hold back with the bulk of your melee forces (bulls,iron guts and the like) while raining magic, cannonballs and thinling  weapons upon the war machines and ranged units while charging in with any mourn fang,stone horns or thunder tusks  you might have. Then lead the rest of your forces in an assault (with your tyrant and bruisers of course) and finish off the remaining dwarves.

Against any Dwarf with half a beard, there will be no "raining" of magic my friend. 

I play Dwarfs and typically run the 'Furgil' list.  What you described would be my dream match.  Ogres not charging across the board; hoping their range will out range a ranged army.  Ducks in a barrel.

WARNING:  Do not attempt this tactic against any army with more firepower than yourself, Dwarfs or otherwise.

Indeed, my last game against Dwarves I got 1 spell off all game. An Iceshard Blizzard he flubbed his dispell roll on. The spell did cost him his massive unit of Longbeard rangers that were in melee with a unit of Bulls.

The best plan for dealing with dwarves is to hold back with the bulk of your melee forces (bulls,iron guts and the like) while raining magic, cannonballs and thinling  weapons upon the war machines and ranged units while charging in with any mourn fang,stone horns or thunder tusks  you might have. Then lead the rest of your forces in an assault (with your tyrant and bruisers of course) and finish off the remaining dwarves.

Against any Dwarf with half a beard, there will be no "raining" of magic my friend. 

I play Dwarfs and typically run the 'Furgil' list.  What you described would be my dream match.  Ogres not charging across the board; hoping their range will out range a ranged army.  Ducks in a barrel.

WARNING:  Do not attempt this tactic against any army with more firepower than yourself, Dwarfs or otherwise. 

It depends on your setup.  In my cutthroat list (2xIBlaster, Poison Pistoleaters), I can reliably gank his war machines before he can clear mine out.  You pretty much have to gank any Organ guns before you even remotely consider closing with the Dwarf player anyhow.  Cannons can suck, but most Dwarf players go counterbattery, which plays right into the Ogre's hands.  Big shooting blocks of Quarrellers and Thunderers are a very rare sight these days, so once you come out ahead of the artillery war, the Dwarf player is in a very uncomfortable position.  Of course, this will not work with a mele centric Ogre list....

It depends on your setup.  In my cutthroat list (2xIBlaster, Poison Pistoleaters), I can reliably gank his war machines before he can clear mine out.

I read this from you before.  I find it totally incredible that you somehow beat up your area's Dwarf warmachines in a fire fight.  Your results (I'm not denying them) are not typical or average.  I would not rely on my Iblasters doing this regularly. 

There's no need to rehash an old discussion just suffice to say; don't hold back against a Dwarf with even half a beard.

I feel the opposite, actually.  Most dwarf infantry armies I have faced rescently have been comprised of large blocks of WS5 great weapon guys, which just tear through Ogres like crazy if they get to dictate the combats.  Most dwarf players are of the "shoot 300 points off the table and wait in my table half for time to run out" mentality and putting them in the hole while taking away their shooting phase completely puts them out of their game.

Ironblasters take twice as many wounds to take down as any dwarven war machine and are mobile, allowing them to hide and line up perfect shots.  Poison Pistoleaters are solid war machine killers, as well.  My guess is if you are winning artillery duels against Ogres, then they are either not picking the right targets to shoot at or are not bringing the amount of firepower I am describing.

The Ironblaster has just under a 70% hit rate assuming 10" out and a small target (less than 2").  Rolling to wound and rolling for the number you find an average number of wounds inflicted per turn is almost exactly 2.  Keep in mind you have a 1/6 chance of misfire with an unfriendly chart. 

8 poison pistol eaters at full strength will trump that, assuming they move/long range/maybe cover they probably need 6's and will inflict about 2.7 wounds per turn.  It wouldn't change much if they needed 5s or even 4s. 

Now, the Dwarf warmachines can't be all under the Grungni banner so lets assume half of the wounds caused are.  After the ward, you get about 5.6 wounds per turn equating to a machine and a half.  Impressive.  This also assumes the player isn't silly and allows you to make "2 for 1" shots.  I know I wouldn't.

Currently I'm mathing out the Dwarf return volley although rerolling misfires complicates the calculations.  I know Grudgethrowers in LoS with Accuracy hit 46% but the cannons I'm not sure on, probably not too much worse than the Iblaster.  Typically the least you'll see is 2 cannons and a Grudge plus 1 or 2 Organ Guns.

I think Dwarves are the perfect counter to ogres. As a dwarf set, the only things that make me worry at all in an ogre army are gorgers and MF cav. Both of which have cheaper easy counters. A couple organ gun is pretty standard in my list and results in either a destroyed mf unit in one turn or a fleeing mf unit, either way problem solved. Gut magic is not at all terrifying to dwarves save for the Maw, but unless its irresistibly cast I can dispell it easily as I typically tun a runelord (no anvil). Dealing with gorgers is also fairly easy, my back lines consist of a master engineer with a brace of pistols, a dragonslayer or two and 10 quarrelers with greatweapons. My cannons will destroy monsters and irong guts in droves as well as my str 5 grudge thrower. You wil be taking panic checks in turn 2. Then whatever makes my  infantry lines is easily chewed through with 30 ws4-5 str 4-5 gw attacks. Also don't rely on breaking dwarves with panic checks ld 9 across the board with alot of stubborn options. As mentioned before tons of flaming attacks so forget trollguts and try casting the maw and bullhorger. That toughness five is still only going to bring dwarves down to a four plus to wound. Don't forget too dwarves have toughness 4 across the board like ogres. Best bet is going to be maneuvering for heavy dlank charges quickly and using a stonehorn or the likes to draw cannonball fire while bringing at least two gorgers. You can use sabres to eat a cannon blast from organ gun fire to make way for mournfang too but that's a bit of a gambi

correction str5-6 attacks. Also to touch on a previous post. If you sit back and shoot against my list with ogres I will live playing you as I will massacre you and likely cause many of your units to flee off the board. Pistoleaters are a solid bet if you field more than three but again, 24" range puts them in range of organ gun fire and you better bet that organ guns will be positioned on flanks. Don't even bother with a thundertusk, that's 250 free points to a standard dwarf list. Try giving the cannons targets and rely on characters/ironguts to do the rest of the work for you. If you play your cards tight a flank charge from MF cav will greatly increase success chances. Magic, don't bother its cheap and easy to shut down ogre magic. At least two to three spellbreaking runes, rune of balance and 2 dd from rune lord alone. Add a secondary runes.ith which is cheap and your only getting if through. Ironblasters will also provide two more distractions for dwarf firepower. Keep in mind too, dwarf generals build blocks with the idea in mind that troops will be dying in droves so there will be some surprises and lookout for master tune of challenge. Just when you think you have the ideal charge they will force your key unit into an elite block of hammerers and crush them.

Also with the mentality that you'll be okay losing one or two ogres to cannon fire each round of shooting, don't forget 1 ogre dying is a rank bonus lost unless horded then it's three attacks lost, up to 6 in many cases so horde quickly becomes unappealing as you make your way across the board. Don't forget, you still have around 60-90 ws4-5 and str 5-6 ld9-10 rerollable horde blocks to deal with 7-8 ogres in a unit ain't gonna cut it. That's assuming the organ guns misfire or already shot at something else. A smart player would see to the latter.

You'll certainly tie it up, but before you charge he'll likely eliminate it with the organ gun nearby. I always used to keep the organ gun near the anvil to drive away warmachine hunters so it's a long shot.

PS Im taking

Tyrant
Firebelly
Firebelly...mainly for the 2 breath attacks and potentially IF Fireball
Bruiser BSB

12 Ironguts
4 Mournfang
Ironblaster
Ironblaster
Sabretusks x 2

Im up against my buddy's dwarves again this weekend and Im looking to try something a wee bit different from the list above that I won with last time.

Any suggestions for some fun craziness?
Im still thinking very little magic but Im open to suggestions 

So the new book is out!

WOuld it makes sense to reboot the thread or start a new one?

All of these threads should be rebooted with new books, but it hasn't happened yet so I guess we just keep going. To start the ball rolling I'll just say that my strategy against dwarfs has not changed too much since I'm the only dwarf player in my area currently However the assistant manager at the GW is starting his own dawi collection and is including 7 war machines and two coptors in it, I fear very little in that army, M6 gets to charging fast enough + 3 kitties can divert quite a bit of fire.

Well, there have not been a lot of MAJOR changes to the new book and a lot of times you can gain some ideas by examining the old tactics, so I say keep it.

On the topic of the book, the main concerns for Ogres I see are:
1)  Copter Rush-
The templates will not inflict tons of damage, but the copters themselves basically render sabres completely neutralized.  And there will always be more copters than Ironblasters, no matter your environment.

2) Hammerers-
The new Savage Orks, really.  Avoid these guys or engage only with Maneaters w AHW.  There is no other unit that can handle them at equal points.

3) Flame Cannon-
Effective reach of 29 inches, S6 d3 MW, and for the low cost of 140 you can basically be immune to misfires.  Frankly, these things are Magma cannons on steroids and I will be shocked not to see two in every army.  Screened by copters or flanked by an Organ Gun, you basically are not going to be able to get rid of these before combat.

Outside these specific things, I don't see dwarves being played drastically different.

Honestly, I dont think hammerers are all that hot. Yes, 2A, S6 is painful with vanguard but they only pack a 5+ AS and T4 (similar to our man eaters if tooled) and lead belchers WILL tear them up or even the flaming breath of the firebelly or even-even a medium fireball.
Remember the cost of the unit too - you will most likely not see any deep hordes of hammerers so they can effectively be worn down before getting finished off by regular ogres with I2 striking before great weapons 6 ogres (3x2 formation) will kill 6,5 hammerers on the charge (assuming 3 stomps and no ahw).

I recall a flame template can in best case (1" from the flank) hit 30-31 models on 20mm bases in a horde, so the firebelly can kill about 13 hammerers in one go and greatly make up for his prices if you suicide-run him out to do so.

A horde of hammerers can cost 500+pt with runes'n'stuff and the above ogres will cost 300 pt making the cost in our favor for sure as the hammerers will be a main dwarf force whereas the firebelly and 6-pack ogres are only support units IMO. you could even feed the hammerers gnoblars due to their M3 until they are shot to death.

I think we will see lots of hammerers but later maybe more ironbreaker that can withstand some of the horde spells/shooting out there (auto-death spells excluded!). S3 shooty elfs will take down hammerers(!).

Posion man-eaters might be viable considering the fewer but more expensive warmachine coming now. However skip sniping at all characters come with 3+ AS at least.

Honestly, the only time you're going to see Hammerers over Ironbreakers is if the player is doing massed-vanguard. 

Two units of 20+ longbeards can both take vanguard AND neatly fill out core points, while the Hammerers allow you to get a third (or even a fourth) vanguarding unit without sacrificing your BSB. 

I haven't had the opportunity to test this build yet, but I'll let you folks know once I do.

Also, the Anvil is WAY more useful that most people originally though.  A bit expensive when properly kitted out, but all the bonuses and spells have made up for it so far.

...and as for the Unkillable Dwarf Lords with re-rollable 1+armour save and 4+ward...

Tyrant: Heavy Armour, Ironfist
Obsidian Blade (for his armour saves)
Other Tricksters Shard (for his ward saves)
Dragonhelm + Dawnstone (gives you 3+re-rollable AS, 2+ward vs fire, 6+ parry)

All true but the last part. You can't parry whilst using a magic weapon/shield.

The six wound I double my STR against T5 and get d6 MW dwarf lord with the 1+ AS is going to be a huge issue for Ogres (and many other armies).

Yeah, but he's still M3.  We'll just need more shooting in order to take out their choppers and we should be able to avoid him for awhile.

A unit of ironguts will still hurt dwarfs and even the lord - just pick your battles and you should be fine.

Remember that like ogres, dwarfs most likely wont field many units (if they want to retrain a punch in combat)

That being said, their new +1 strength on the charge has a huge effect.  I had a unit of ironguts fail the charge (runes of slowness), then get counter charged by Ironbreakers (ironic name) who slaughtered an entire rank, broke the 'guts, and then ran them down.

I was at my GW today to pick up the new Runesmith model and the person working there remarked that according to the person above his manager (so I'd suppose like a regional director? not sure how GW organizes themselves) had let it slip that at least as far as Canada was concerned, Dwarfs have been the best selling Fantasy update since 8th came out, every store is selling out and needing restock its mayhem at the warehouses.

I was at my GW today to pick up the new Runesmith model and the person working there remarked that according to the person above his manager (so I'd suppose like a regional director? not sure how GW organizes themselves) had let it slip that at least as far as Canada was concerned, Dwarfs have been the best selling Fantasy update since 8th came out, every store is selling out and needing restock its mayhem at the warehouses.

My GW solf out of everything except the Slayer character on day 1 of the release, so there's definitely truth to that. New hope for.yhr future of fantasy

people seem to be worried about the dwarf lords being tanky yet over at bugmans brewery  (as im also a dawi player/collector) the general consensus is that the dwarf lords/heros are much more squishy than they used to be. so I guess opinions differ on both sides and the only way to find out is to go against a dwarf army , anyone played against the new book yet ?

Only dwarf players could complain that a 6 wound 1+/3++ vs S5 attacks is squishy.  They should try playing a tyrant or greater daemon sometime, let alone a wood elf or empire lord choice.

How does the dwarf get a 3++? I must have missed something.

Dwarf players are used to complain, so it is hard to stop : )

Is a dual tank7combat lord build viable? Or is the model count so low that bulk troops are needed?

Armour of Borek Beetlebrow (60 pts). It gives the user a 2+ modifiable armour save and a 3++ vs all attacks of S6 or more. Its one of two Ancestral Heirlooms I see as being useful in the book, though I've yet to run it. What I've seen as grinding the dawi gears is the loss of any form of re-rollable armour saves outside of a 15 pt runic item which allows one re-roll of pretty much anything throughout the game. For the loss of that we (read: they) gained easy access to toughness and wound boosts along with more ward saves, so in the end I think the complaining is just    I don't like change  I certainly did not complain, I'm enjoying the book a lot.

I'm surprised they didn't get a centerpiece model.  I'm disappointing that they didn't get mechanical golems or bear cavalry 

I'm surprised they didn't get a centerpiece model.  I'm disappointing that they didn't get mechanical golems or bear cavalry 

Seconded! Steam Powered Golems would have been epic! 

A death roller would have been nice, think a tougher version of the skaven hamster ball thing with compulsory movement.  Instead, the only real new wrinkle the army got was Copter rush.

I've played Mass-Vanguard twice now and won both times.  Two big bricks of Longbeards and a big brick of Hammerers that starts twelve inches away is pretty awesome.  I have them supported by a big brick of Bugman's Rangers (who put out retarded amounts of damage, btw).  It's a 4-drop army, so it tends to go first, and the scouts help nerf counter-vanguard.  Lots of fun, and a huge change.  Haven't tried it against Ogres though.

Had 3 games now vs the new dwarfs and heres what I have taken away from them.

Flame Cannons got a big boost (Deservedly, they've been terribad for years) and can next to guarantee killing at least 3-4 ogres a shot if you don't prepare.

Dwarf Lords, they were always a pain in the bum and this remains true, double strength, d3 wounds on a 1up 4++ 6 wound boyo is decent. I would say to more or less just avoid the Lord, unles you have some awesome combat combo in mind.

Hammerers. Waste of points still. Don't do anything regular dwarfs cant do, as a character bunker I'd prefer ironbreakers. As soon as you put the shieldbearer Lord and maybe a runsemith and/or BSB in there you are really starting to not get any real benefit from their 2 attacks each.

Gyrocopters. The dwarfs new spammable expensive shooty sabretusks. Watch out for doubleflee and movement blocking shenanigans.

All the other artillery is still as lethal as it was. The organ gun has somehow gotten better (against us anyway). (and it was pretty much broken before)

Kill the runesmiths as soon as possible. As with any buff character, you want them dead. Anti-magic items, channelling, armour piercing, magic resistance. And they are usually pretty easy VP's.