Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Dwarfs

Summary from the old forum:

- Vorett the Fussy

Drawfs (especially now) tend to rely alot on thier cannons and organ guns. I think the best is to try to occupy or kill off the team controlling either (or both) the organ gun and cannons (or even stone throwers)

If they have relied heavily on them for army strength, you will find they will have an extremly limited army after this.

Basic stuff, but worth noting

The Siegebreaker is useful against Dwarfs, because their high WS of 4 is now reduced to a pitiful 2! Laugh at the Stunties as they attempt to scurry away from your huge hammer!
Dwarfs are also one of the few armies where you are practically guaranteed a Bull Charge.
Always take at least one Gorger. Slavegiants and Rhinox Riders will just be blown to smithereens.
When the Gorger does come on, bring him out close to some Thunderers/Quarrelers and move him to their flank, out of the LoS of any Organ Guns and the ranged unit.

I disagree i have to say that dwarfs are one of the hardest armies i've ever faced and i've only managed to get a draw as the best result after about 6 games against them.

What the player does is he takes the flame cannon and an organ gun (only now because they took the move and shoot away from the thunderers) and takes three unitsof thunderers. the rest are ironfist(or something like that) and slayers, and some realy effective magic items that caught me off gaurd. there is a stone that forces you to charge a unit into combat (against his general that unit fell apart FAST). and the save that he gets with heavy armour and shields and all that crap i found it incredibly hard to do any damage!
i still haven't figured out how to break that army down, as for the gorger he definitly does come in handy in taking out the war machines but it wasn't enough. One sneaky trick that does work (although only once!) is the first game i took a hunter with trappers and deployed the trappers behind a hill (shadow of the hill blocks line of sight, thats how we play at the store) and tie up the flame cannon or organ gun so he can't shoot (also very effective on skaven as charging their warp cannon causes it to run) but like i said that only ever works once. lol.

Yeh I think dwarves are the toughest for Ogres, (they used an ogre army to demonstrate how good the new dwarf list is in the Jan. white dwarf...always a bad omen!).  I got thumped last night even though I think my strategy was pretty sound. I aimed to get across the board quickly, focussing on taking out one flank. Unfortunately the board layout meant I had to go through the range of his war machines. Even with the first move, my core units got shot, failed leadership giving the initative back to the dwarves.  he slowed my flanking units with rangers, my scraplauncher misfired and destroyed itself, The hunters spangle shard was useless as he rolled 6's anyway.   I really think a fair degree of luck (ie first move, save leadership) is needed to get across the board with lightly armored units. He even had the luxury to turn a core unit to face my Gorgers in rounds 2 and 3.

I must admit that the dwarves are a hard army to beat but I have been playing against them and I massacred 4 games out of 5. Let's say I had my share of that anvil of doom !!  But I must admit the gorgers will rip that appart. For the other artillery like organ gun and cannon, I like to use terrain as a "block line of sight. If there are are 2 mountains available, place that hill in the midlle somewhere to protect your units. One thing I do if I field the hunter or leadbelchers, I try to place a forest on the the flank side about half way and keep my hunter out of shooting harm. Use terrain to your advantage. If I can do it, then you can as well.

Unfortunately we do random setups or get a friend to set the field. I wonder whether it is worth having larger bull units (say 6) to give less chance of missile fire forcing a leadership test.
I have never fielded 'naked' ogres assuming that light armour was worth it, but the dwarves rolls were so good it didn't matter anyway.

Use naked ogres against dwarves, the light armor will be discounted by the vast majority of their shooting, and many of their troops have great weapons, or strength 4. Besides, ogres with clubs subtract 2 from the dwarve's save.

thanks for that, I could use the extra points

yah definitly go with the naked ogres the light armour isn't worth the points. as for using terrain. unfortunatly we're playing the boarder princes campaign in the north bay hobby store. And well none of the terrain in that campaing blocks line of site unless you're in the forest and you can actually get forests onto the field. so dwarfs are tough especially when you have to take their war machines for the two turns it takes to get across the board.

Take a lone rhinox rider to use as cannon food, to make the yhetees get some charges. and WATCH OUT FOR THOSE SLAYERS!

My main dwarf opponent will be my bro, who takes only fighty units
I will charge his best unit with the trappers in his rear. I flee, he pursues because he hates all greenskins and volia! Instant rear charge with Ironguts

Check out the 2000 pt ogre army for dwarves, I'd appreciate any tips before I redraw the list.
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4185#4185

I actually gave some advice on this particular topic on the Games Workshop Warhammer Fantasy forums earlier. I'll copy and paste it into here:

>> I used to be a Dwarf player (I still collect the army, but I felt their playstyle was rather one-dimensional, so I switched to Ogres), and I never realized how frustrating they can truly be until I played against them for the first time.
>>
>> Anyway, do you guys have ANY advice on how to take down Dwarfs as Ogre Kingdoms.
>>
>> I'm really at a loss here, any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance - Turtle.

The key here is using hate to your advantage as an above poster said. Flee with your Gnoblars and lure out a couple units of Dwarfs, then crush them easily. The key here is doing this while minimizing shooting losses: Gorgers should be able to take care of that, and take Butchers! BUTCHERS! The fact is, Ogre magic is really great.

If you're worried about shooting losses, throw on a +1 Toughness spell, and never use more than one dice to cast a spell.

Just keep...casting..spells: General rule of thumb for Ogre armies.

Also, Gorgers and Trappers should be a mandatory choice in your army as well. Position the trappers 25" away from his Thunderers and set them up in a scattered line across the board, then when your main Ogre force starts getting closer, march in your trappers. Your Ogre force will take no losses from shooting, which basically equals Dwarven defeat (since most Dwarf generals tend to field a lot of shooty units).

Ok, Summary time:

1. Butcher magic Butcher magic Butcher magic. Keep casting spells constantly. Eventually one of your spells will go through, and after the first spell goes through, then it's much easier from there (as he'll either have to chose to dispell the ones that are in play or dispell the ones you'll decide to cast next)

2. Hate rules! Position trappers (Fighters should be protecting flanks) right outside the Dwarven infantry line and draw them out. It'll be easy for your Ogres to destroy them from there.

3. Gorgers! These guys are great, for a measly 75 points, you get a S 5, T 5 beast with 4 attacks and 4 wounds that can enter from the back of the board. Send these guys after the Thunderers if you're worried about shooting, or send 'em after cannons and Organ Guns if he's got a lot artillery.

If you neutralize artillery threats, the game is virtually over, as too many Dwarf generals rely way to heavily upon their shooting.

4. Flank (This goes with hate rules), lure the Dwarfs out...flank. Never take them head on (That's what the Gnoblars are for!). If you flank, you can probably "autobreak" them on the first round of combat.

I hope this helped.

thanks for that, I think I'll have to draw up an alternative list that actually includes butchers!, maybe I'll drop the hunter and a bruiser.

remember that even though a character has a 0+ or something stupid like that they still fail on a 1 (unless they changed the rule.)

 Gorgers are definately the way to go. I played my first game against the new dwarves last week and the Gorgers were awesome. They both came on in the second turn and after surviving 1 turn of dwarf shooting unscathed one charged and annihilated his bolt thrower crew and overran into the back of a warrior unit. And he stayed in combat with the warriors for the next three turns only taking one wound whilst steadily munching the unit.
 I was particularly worried about the dwarf shooting phase but have to say that it really didn't make much of a dent in my ogres before I got to combat.

The game ended in a draw (In my favour). Splatting his lord with my siegebreaker wielding tyrant helped somewhat!!

what I think you should do against the dwarves is you should split your army as evenly points wise as possible into 3 groups. have a ton of gnoblar fighters and trappers go on the right flank, your big guys(tyrant, butcher, hunter etc.) go down the middle, and have your bulls and iron gut go down the left. this will force your opponent into deciding what to do. he can either divide his shots and shoot all three groups which will lessen the amount of damage you take in each group, he can focus his fire power at one and do alot of damage, but then your other 2 groups can obliterate him at full strength, also he can divide his shots 2 ways, doing not all too much to either groups, and the third unharmed, meaning you can still get up there with all three groups at good unit strength, or he can wet himself and start yelling "I hate you, your not supposed to do that!" This is what I have done for every army I have ever played(even 40k armies) and it has done wonders.

I've posted 'bout this in the old forum, but my thoughts have evolved somewhat... I'm gonna be playin' my brother's slayer army soon, well.... whenever I finish my army. With the 'look snorri, trolls....' rule (which advances the whole slayer force 2D6 inches), I can throw a bunch of gnobbos to slow 'em down. The thought being, how good would is be to rain scrap death on the heads of those bearded fools. Now, they do have a master rune that grants a 5+ ward save against ranged weapons, other than that no armor save.

Hehe hi all im new here! and off (Splat) hehe Nice sig. No guts no glory is a good song from the band Bolthrower.


Anyways my main opponent plays dwarfs. And i have found out, the only thing that work wonders on those little stunties, is Iron guts. When they come along then...smash and those dwarfes die in droves.


Anyways i have a little rule question, Can gnobbos screen ogres? i aint sure about that- =/

Yes. Though gnobbos are considerably smaller, imagine an enemy trying to shoot at your ogres while a bunch of gnobbos are hoppin around and how hard it is to resist such a good target(shooting at a retarded gnobbo has to be a sport of some kind).

Ahh thx m8 =) good to know

Haha, that's the first time I've heard an explanation that actually makes it sound plausible

At the local GW store, their is a fellow gamer with a all-slayer force from SoC. Could anyone give me tips if I ever face this force?

Hey guys, i've got a week to get my ogres in condition to play a 1500 point dwarf army.  Unforunately i don't know what he's going to take, and i've never played against him before, he won't be taking a slayer army, and hopefully won't be taking a complete gun-line, i'll try to have my army list up for review tomorrow.

As for the Slayer army, Liz, i hate to say it, but i think we are screwed in terms of these guys.  If your opponent gets 10 victory points for every slayer that is killed in battle with an ogre, and the base slayer costs 10 points a peice, PLUS if all dwarfs hate greenskins...  It invalidates a lot of possibilities, the best i can think of though, is (depending on your points and what you actually have) take scraplaunchers!  Yes, i know they are finnicky, but a killing blow catapult (if you're good at guessing range) can really help thin down units before they get into combat.  Also: Leadbelchers!  That movement of three can really hurt them, they have to spend at least one turn in the range of a leadbelcher cannon before they can charge.  If you have the points allowed in the game, grab a unit of maneaters with braces of pistols, this will give you another shooting unit that can hold its own in close combat.  You want to thin them down, take out as many as possible BEFORE they hit your battle line.  I know ogres really weren't made for shooting, but its the best we can do against these guys i think.

About the slayers.

Indeed kill as many before you get in combat.

They get 10 points for every stunty killed by a S5+ or T5+ opponent.
I can't remember if it is base strength or with great weapons.
so lay low on your characters.

I'd say: use leadbelchas, scraplaunchas and some gnoblars for screening and baiting.
BTW scraplaunchas are just good for the shooting, killing blows don't really count with 1 wound no armour saves models.

It's base Strength/Toughness only.
I find Slayers my easiest opponents, as a unit of bulls will do for a unit of slayers of equal or lesser points cost, and Ironguts have an even easier time. As long as you don't waste points on magic you'll be fine.
Doomseekers, however, are nasty. Since my opponent uses them in clusters, I use two units of two leadbelchers and split my fire between two 'Seekers. If nothing goes horribly wrong I've taken out two big threats, and have a small unit of bulls I can charge with.
Also, kit out your Tyrant/Maneaters with a Brace of Handguns. It's the only weapon that won't give an Honourable Death, and you can use it to pick off 'Seekers as you advance.

The stone thrower is our worst enemy. Not the cannon really.

Gorgers cannot overrun.  They are too busy wolfing down chunks of prey.  Ooops.

They can chase though, must chase actually. I would say use the scraplaunchers, they are great against any dwarf army, you WILL kill something with them. Be it from teh 9 attack + impact or from teh big giant template tehy can land in teh midst of a turtled army. doomie.

About the slayers.

Indeed kill as many before you get in combat.

They get 10 points for every stunty killed by a S5+ or T5+ opponent.
I can't remember if it is base strength or with great weapons.
so lay low on your characters.

I'd say: use leadbelchas, scraplaunchas and some gnoblars for screening and baiting.
BTW scraplaunchas are just good for the shooting, killing blows don't really count with 1 wound no armour saves models.

It's base Strength/Toughness only.
I find Slayers my easiest opponents, as a unit of bulls will do for a unit of slayers of equal or lesser points cost, and Ironguts have an even easier time. As long as you don't waste points on magic you'll be fine.
Doomseekers, however, are nasty. Since my opponent uses them in clusters, I use two units of two leadbelchers and split my fire between two 'Seekers. If nothing goes horribly wrong I've taken out two big threats, and have a small unit of bulls I can charge with.
Also, kit out your Tyrant/Maneaters with a Brace of Handguns. It's the only weapon that won't give an Honourable Death, and you can use it to pick off 'Seekers as you advance.

The stone thrower is our worst enemy. Not the cannon really.

 Gorgers are definately the way to go. I played my first game against the new dwarves last week and the Gorgers were awesome. They both came on in the second turn and after surviving 1 turn of dwarf shooting unscathed one charged and annihilated his bolt thrower crew and overran into the back of a warrior unit. <more snipped>

Gorgers cannot overrun.  They are too busy wolfing down chunks of prey.  Ooops.

They can chase though, must chase actually. I would say use the scraplaunchers, they are great against any dwarf army, you WILL kill something with them. Be it from teh 9 attack + impact or from teh big giant template tehy can land in teh midst of a turtled army. doomie.

Actually, I've notice most dwarf player's use the deny flank setup. Basically, it's shoot alot, and keep the big unit chunks together.

I noticed, the players will place the terrain in the middle to cut the opponent's units in sections since there's not that much space for 3-4 units to go through. I usually place a piece in the deployment zone, 10" from each corner. This way, there's a piece that will for him to take the middle unless he want's to devide his units. Let me know what you think about this tactic.

I usally dont like it when people setup terrain for themselves.  Its better if a third party that isnt stupid does it.

I munched my dwarven opponent.  I avoided Thorgrim (why fight him?), my gorger decaptitated the special character runelord on the anvil, and my scraplaunchers (3 of 'em) rained death on their heads, including a lucky shot killing blow on his battle standard bearer!  Gotta love it.  :-)

I killed my dwarven opponent, i was lucky though in that he only took one cannon in a 2000 point battle and that cannon didn't manage to pull off any hits (always missed or bounced away into nothing).

With more cannons, i think i may have problems... he had one large unit of thunderers as well, which managed to kill a few ogres (with shooting and with close combat) Trollguts was a godsend in that game.

i recently played a small game against a dwarf army of 1000 pts in which he employed 20 thunderers and 2 bolt throwers we didnt have much terrain so i didnt have much to cover with whats the best way to counter these

My rather useful tactics against the Dwars is fielding as many Ironguts as possible. Forget the Scraplauncher. The Dwarfs are T4, the Scrappie is S3, not a good chance to wound, eventhough it has Killing Blow. If you want to shoot, bring Leadbelchers, as they are S4, armour piercing. Sprint across the field, using blocks of five ogres, so that you won't have to check for panic every time one ogre dies. Even with a strong shooting army, the Dwarfs are gonna have a hard time knocking out your ogres. Bring gorgers to kill his warmachine crews. Screen with trappers, if the terrain permits it. They must not hinder the march of your ogres. All in all...hit fast and hit hard. And of course, give your Tyrant the Siegebreaker and he will be King of the Battlefield. And make sure you protect him as well as possible.

i agree with elfstomper here... the more ogres you have on the field the better.
it means that you have more ogres, meaning that they hit harder and that they can still soak up damage.
gorgers are absolutely mad at taking out war machines, so y not try using multiple??

I think it's important to emphasize that scary Dwarf close combat units can (and should) be avoided.  Characters, hammerers, and ironbreakers (though they're less popular with the new book) are an unpleasant lot, and even combined charges can have trouble shifting them. 

Knowing what to hit for easy victory points and what not to hit is particularly important against Dwarves.  Though most of their regiments look similar, the difference between an easy combined charge and the loss of a combat depends on knowing which Dwarven regiment you can easily beat.

When playing dwarves, the warmachines are the main problem. I attack these with my Bangstick, 2D6 S2 Hits, and Auto Panic's with Skullmantle. You MUST kill their shooting phase, Troll Guts is very handy as it works wonders vs D6 wound weapons e.g. Cannons, If they have an oath stone, charge a hard unit, but not uber, e.g ironguts with a butcher, and he'll use his oath stone, when you flee(because you will lose combat most likely)he cant pursuse, and you just have a big mob of dwarves stuck in the middle of no where. Now ignore them. Have your Tyrants unit going down the battle line, getting ready for some flank charges and smash them good and proper. Hold back from combat until gnoblars reach the line, then make them chase you after you lose combat, thanks to hatred, and then flank them with a well positioned ogre unit(preferably ironguts) Im not sure about one thing, I havent tried it yet but im just wondering, if warmachine crew(dwarven) have o charge greenskins because of hatred, Im probably wrong and dont have the BRB with me but it would be funny.

and I do terrain like so;

   I             I              I

          I             I

   I             I              I



'I' being a peice of terrain and then scatter them from those positions, thats how the people at my club play anyway.

Hope this helps.

Im up against my brother in a 1k game soon and im seriuosly scared silly. He gets like 3-4 warmachines and a HUGE unit of at least 20 Thunderers!

My meatscreeningsbulls will last one round against that opposition not to mention the Gnoblars =/. A small unit of trappers can be useful to draw some crewmembers from one of the machines but what about the rest and those nasty NASTY thunderers!?

a lone gorger might have to come in to disrupt some fire.

jsut screen and chargfe however, it'll soon work for you!  a pity the game is too small to take a kineater name....

A lone Gorger would be an option but im very short on points to spend.

Cast trollguts on your units. Won me a game because i took a hard charge and healed 14 wounds over the  course of the combat and won.(Plus I was super lucky!)

Im not afraid of their melee, not one bit, but im terrified of all those cannonballs coming for my head,

Anyone know how the Organ Gun actually works? U have to throw artillerydice to decide how many shots u get away but after that do you have to roll to hit or is it auto-hitting like the old-fashioned Hellblaster?

it auto-hits

That is sooooo insane...

I just heard of my brothers setup (Dwarfplayer) and now im even more at loss of tactics.

Ill try to illustrate, the line below is the back edge of the table:

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thunderers--Lord--Cannon--Warriors--Cannon--IronBreak--Cannon--Thunderers

Thats the basic idea, he puts 2 large hardhitting units on each edge to stop flankers and then cannons/boltthrowers/Grudge or whatever in between. Try to charge down one flank and i get either gunned down bogged by a large unit. Down the middle and im facing the barrels of ALOT of Cannons and Boltthrowers. He puts his units ALL the way back to the tables edge so he can deal with any Gorgers and such coming in from the edge.

For the rest of the game he doesnt move if he doesnt have to, instead he relies completely on his supreme firepower and at one time or another i will be forced into LoS of his warmachines.

If one tries to bring in a Gorger or a unit like it he either gunns it down with thunderers or smashes it with a runelord. A head on charge is totally out of the question, and as I said earlier u cant hide forever.

so,

what you do is you play with 2 units of 3 bulls in teh front of the centre line and directly behind them you have to large units of IGs with characters in them.  These chrage forward and smash stuff.  The bull units will get killed by the crossfire, but your guts should reach the dwarves intact.

meanwhile you take a unit of trappers in some terrain in front of a cannon and jump out in front of it spoiling LoS - they can engage the crew if you want, but it's not necessary.

put 2 smaller units on your flanks (like pairs of leadbelchers) and have them distract the thunderers (which they will do as most people fear leadbelchers more than they should)

all this is just a ploy to get the IG units into combat asap and intact - these will then chomp through anything in their path and then work towards the flanks causing fear and carnage along the way.  The butchers are supposed to try and keep them trollgutted or toothcrackered up to assist them, so draw dispel dice with bonecrunchers and bangsticks and then go to town.

its worked for me so far, and against more artillery than your opponent is packing.

The dwarf line has weak flanks. You could throw a big hitter with a screen in front at the thunderers and roll his flank with ease.

Ill just have to pray that the Bulls will stand up to the fire long enough but the trapperscreen was a very good point, just spread them out in a long line taking up as much LoS as possible, sure they will run and hide (if there is anything left) after the first turn but thats 48pts sacrificed to get my IGs in range.

Maybe I am more intimidated than I have reason to be. Good feedback though so thanx a bunch!

The only problem with screening is those goddamn cannons (he has more warmachines than i drew up in my illustration, just wanted to give you guys a hint of how it looks) and their balls bouncing through my ranks. But by screening with bulls I hopefully rid my IGs of most of the fire.

Im not afraid of their melee, not one bit, but im terrified of all those cannonballs coming for my head,

Just take lookout gnoblars to keep your characters save. If you don't have ranked up stuff, cannons won't hurt that much.They will usually hit 1 or 2 ogres at most. Add in the inavoidable over-guessing, under-guessing and misfires, you should be fine. Just make sure you ALWAYS have a look-out sir roll.

Screening won't help you against cannons btw. In fact, it will only make for more atractive targets since now they can bounce through several units.

I was utterly defeated... my Bruiser managed to panic and run off the board =/. Did some real damage with the units that reached to Dwarven lines and if only my Bruiser could have been there too it would have been carnage. The cannons actually didnt hurt all that bad, at most they down one ogre/turn as you said. I think I lost a bit cause of my setup which made me end up with two ranks of ogre units but i must say my LBs did a heroic effort in killing Ironbreakers from afar...

But everything on the flanks. Have a couple good units run up the sides of the table (I'm talking very edge) so as to ruin war machine LoS and crush those flanks. Whether the thunderers turn to accept the charge or not, you will get (you will have enough units right?) a flank and frontal charge. Also, throw in a giant, that terror test might just cause something to flee off the board. And up the middle? Send gnoblars, lots and lots. Seriously, gnoblars are a nuisance to dwarves, and can be a real pain in the behind. The goal of this set up is to swamp his front with canon fodder, and attack his flanks where it'll be harder to shoot.

But everything on the flanks. Have a couple good units run up the sides of the table (I'm talking very edge) so as to ruin war machine LoS and crush those flanks. Whether the thunderers turn to accept the charge or not, you will get (you will have enough units right?) a flank and frontal charge. Also, throw in a giant, that terror test might just cause something to flee off the board. And up the middle? Send gnoblars, lots and lots. Seriously, gnoblars are a nuisance to dwarves, and can be a real pain in the behind. The goal of this set up is to swamp his front with canon fodder, and attack his flanks where it'll be harder to shoot.

If he puts his cannons more or less in the middle, I wouldn't go walking on the flanks too much. Before you know it you've got 3 or 4 dead ogres from a single cannonball. Th strategy against an artillery-heavy army with lots of shooting is easy. Take 3 units of 4 ogres with a standard+lookout and put a character in each. Put the tyrant in the middle unit and give him the kineater bigname. If you keep this group close together, they are extremely difficult to panic. And you really only need your characters plus 2 ogres each to make it across the board. Anything left of the unit beyond that only makes it difficult to manouvre.

Those thunderers on the sides sound like the perfect unit to use LB's as a ditraction against. Get a toothcracker or trollguts on them and they will soke up al those nasty missiles for you. As already entioned, people tend to over-estimate Leadbelchers and i've seen my opponent use all his firepower for 3 full turns just to kill/panic 2 units of 2 LB's, for a grand total of 220 vp's (if they keep running that is).

Running 3 large units up the front sounds mad at first but he just dont get to fire at you all that many turns and besides, that just might get my fighty butcher into CC where he can wreak havoc Ikim-style!

Hi im going up agianst 1000 points of dwarves for the warhammer campian that my gaming club is holding the player im up agianst, although ive never played seems to be more expearienced than me and i only have the ogre battalion + a butcher +a brusier to work with and i was wondering if any one had any tips on what i should do

I'd suggest the following (roughly):

Bruiser (tenderiser or wyrdstone necklace+siegebreaker)

Butcher + bangstick

2x3 naked bulls (bellowers)

4 IGs std, bellower, look out gnob, war banner

3 leadbelchers

That should be just about 1000 pts i think. (also im not totally sure whats in the battalion, but i guess thats it). Hopefully the list will work, just hope he doesnt shut down your magic completely. (if you didnt notice already, im not a big fan of gnoblars, they just seem to be left behind).

Hope it works & Happy Gaming!

The "KNOW YOUR ENEMY" section should be for knowledge only. It should be a reference table and questions should be asked in the "FEEDBACK".

Would it be possible to do something about this ?

Hi every one
against dwarves I use 4 maneaters with cathayan longswords, 4 ironguts with full command, 2 * 3 bulls with bellower, 2*20 gnoblars, 8 trappers, 2*2 leadbelchers, 1 gorger, tyrant with skullplucker + gut maw +wyrdnecklace + mawseeker, hunter with greyback pelt + mawseeker and a bruiser with battle standard with Dragonhide banner.

Seigebreaker would be a better weapon against dwarfs.

Yeah str 8. Hitting them with ws against Initative, ownage . Also str 8 neg 5 watch those dwarfies cry wen they have no save. Also what about giving him Giantbreaker and casting bullgorger on him. str 10 bit ova the top and would have to be a tyrant and army include slavegiant
Tri

Tyrant
Siegebreaker
Kineater
Jade Lion
Heavy Armour

BSB
Ragbanner
Lookout-Gnoblar

Bruiser
Fistful of Laurels
GW
Bullgut
Heavy Armour

Bruiser
Spangleshard
GW
Heavy Armour
Rock Eye

That should be about what characters would have use vs. Dwarfs.

As for core choices, tarpits of Bulls with Ironguts as usual. Rare Choices are Slavegiants/Gorgers, as you dont really need Maneaters against dwarfs. Youve got the Ironguts.

Special Choices would be Yheetes, Yheetes and more Yheetes.

Hi Everyone!
I am sorry to disagree with you, but Skullplucker is perfect vs dwarf lords and tough characters.
This is much better than tenderiser / siegebreaker, with the simple fact that you just need 1 * 6 to wound. My regular dwarf opponent uses a tooled up dwarf lord with 2 shieldbearers making him 1+ save. Also he gives him a rune which makes max strenght vs him 5 so it is useless to have a higher strenght you will only wound him on 4+ and he will save on 3+ or 4+ if using a club or cathayan longsword.
That said I find yhetees a real waist of points as they die like normal ogres while being more expensive and just die in vain...If you present your opponent with say 6 units of ogres, he will either concentrate fire on a couple of units or if you have yhetees he will obliterate them from the known world. With the same points you can get more ogres or a scraplauncher which as I said is really deadly vs Dwarves.
My opponent is really scarred of killing blows simply because I love the look in his face when I roll 6's in rows. My record stands at 8 consecutive 6's!
May you always roll 6's (except on Leaderships).
Cheers

With the two shieldbearers the lord becomes immune to killing blow, being US 3. A scraplauncher is hardly a threat against dwarves when they can take it out on the first turn with a cannon. GAH! Hate that rule. So stupid....so the Skullplucker is still a waste. Why would you get in combat with the lord if you can't kill him outside of killing blows? Against the dwarf army the seigebreaker is a very good weapon. It gives you a better chance to hit and crushes most armor.

I must give it you are right in all points.

But still siege breaker will be of no better use than a cathayan longsword. that is gives me better chance to hit only, but the longsword will give me also armour piercing. Just a thought.

Maybe the best thing to do is stay away from the lord and his stubborn unit after all and just bash all the other units to tiny little pieces.

My opponent is really scarred of killing blows simply because I love the look in his face when I roll 6's in rows. My record stands at 8 consecutive 6's!

Well, as was already explained, if your opponent is on shieldbearers, this has been done wrong and you need to tell him that his US3 lord is immune to such attacks.

Siegebreaker - Swinging at strength 8 versus a dwarf lord's initiative (which is 4) means you will hit on 3's and cause wounds on 2's with a negative 5 armor save modifier.  Dwarf lords can easily get a 1+ save so that leaves them with a 6 plus save and usually a 5+ ward save.  With Siegebreaker you will hit a bit over 3 times.  Out of those three you will wound almost 3 times versus toughness 5.  He will save a bit over once so two wounds caused give or take.

CLS - Swinging at strength 5 and against the dwarf lords weapon skill you (which is 7) you will hit on 4's and cause wounds on 4's with a negative 2 armor modifier.  You will hit 2.5 times per round.  Out of those hits you will wound once per round.   He will be saving on a 3+ this time with his 5+ ward save.  On average you will wound less then once per round of combat (give or take).

This isn't the actual stats, this is theoryhammer.  For the actual stats I refer to Avians calculator over on his site at http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php
Siege - 1.23 (he doesn't have strength 8 so that was at strength 7)
CLS - .028 wounds

Well. We can agree that one should not get into combat with the lord with his stubborn immune to panic/terror/fear unit and pummel the rest of his army to a bloody pulp. The weapon won't matter when your not in combat with him. Against the general dwarf warrior and ironbreaker the seigiebreaker would be more cost effective.

ill be playing my friend soon in a 3000pt game and he will be running a run lord and run smiths, so naturally he will have many despell dice.He will be despelling most or all of my spells  so my question is should i still bring butchers or only bruizers?

Personally?  If he is running a heavy dispel army, I would bring some extra Yhetee and Ironguts.  Bruisers are ok but you need mass wounds versus Dwarf's and Ironguts are just the thing

Don't bring the butchers against a heavy dispel army. Even if you took a slaughtermaster and alot of butchers you'd only be able to match his magic defense, not overcome it. And though I don't often support them, take leadbelchers. A fistful of armor piercing S4 shots is exactly the thing to take down those dwarves. Soften the blocks up with belchers, charge in the guts and support the ironguts next turn with the belchers.

With the two shieldbearers the lord becomes immune to killing blow, being US 3.

Is it US 3? because the dwarf itself is still US1 ( think of the dark elf beastmaster on a manticore)

It is considered "One model" as they are an upgrade and not a mount.  I don't have my army book with me but I am fairly sure it specifically states that in the description for the upgrade (will try and remember to get a quote for ya when I get home).

Hi every one
against dwarves I use 4 maneaters with cathayan longswords, 4 ironguts with full command, 2 * 3 bulls with bellower, 2*20 gnoblars, 8 trappers, 2*2 leadbelchers, 1 gorger, tyrant with skullplucker + gut maw +wyrdnecklace + mawseeker, hunter with greyback pelt + mawseeker and a bruiser with battle standard with Dragonhide banner.

Seigebreaker would be a better weapon against dwarfs.

Yeah str 8. Hitting them with ws against Initative, ownage . Also str 8 neg 5 watch those dwarfies cry wen they have no save. Also what about giving him Giantbreaker and casting bullgorger on him. str 10 bit ova the top and would have to be a tyrant and army include slavegiant
Tri

Tyrant
Siegebreaker
Kineater
Jade Lion
Heavy Armour

BSB
Ragbanner
Lookout-Gnoblar

Bruiser
Fistful of Laurels
GW
Bullgut
Heavy Armour

Bruiser
Spangleshard
GW
Heavy Armour
Rock Eye

That should be about what characters would have use vs. Dwarfs.

As for core choices, tarpits of Bulls with Ironguts as usual. Rare Choices are Slavegiants/Gorgers, as you dont really need Maneaters against dwarfs. Youve got the Ironguts.

Special Choices would be Yheetes, Yheetes and more Yheetes.

Hi Everyone!
I am sorry to disagree with you, but Skullplucker is perfect vs dwarf lords and tough characters.
This is much better than tenderiser / siegebreaker, with the simple fact that you just need 1 * 6 to wound. My regular dwarf opponent uses a tooled up dwarf lord with 2 shieldbearers making him 1+ save. Also he gives him a rune which makes max strenght vs him 5 so it is useless to have a higher strenght you will only wound him on 4+ and he will save on 3+ or 4+ if using a club or cathayan longsword.
That said I find yhetees a real waist of points as they die like normal ogres while being more expensive and just die in vain...If you present your opponent with say 6 units of ogres, he will either concentrate fire on a couple of units or if you have yhetees he will obliterate them from the known world. With the same points you can get more ogres or a scraplauncher which as I said is really deadly vs Dwarves.
My opponent is really scarred of killing blows simply because I love the look in his face when I roll 6's in rows. My record stands at 8 consecutive 6's!
May you always roll 6's (except on Leaderships).
Cheers

With the two shieldbearers the lord becomes immune to killing blow, being US 3. A scraplauncher is hardly a threat against dwarves when they can take it out on the first turn with a cannon. GAH! Hate that rule. So stupid....so the Skullplucker is still a waste. Why would you get in combat with the lord if you can't kill him outside of killing blows? Against the dwarf army the seigebreaker is a very good weapon. It gives you a better chance to hit and crushes most armor.

I must give it you are right in all points.

But still siege breaker will be of no better use than a cathayan longsword. that is gives me better chance to hit only, but the longsword will give me also armour piercing. Just a thought.

Maybe the best thing to do is stay away from the lord and his stubborn unit after all and just bash all the other units to tiny little pieces.

Well, as was already explained, if your opponent is on shieldbearers, this has been done wrong and you need to tell him that his US3 lord is immune to such attacks.

Siegebreaker - Swinging at strength 8 versus a dwarf lord's initiative (which is 4) means you will hit on 3's and cause wounds on 2's with a negative 5 armor save modifier.  Dwarf lords can easily get a 1+ save so that leaves them with a 6 plus save and usually a 5+ ward save.  With Siegebreaker you will hit a bit over 3 times.  Out of those three you will wound almost 3 times versus toughness 5.  He will save a bit over once so two wounds caused give or take.

CLS - Swinging at strength 5 and against the dwarf lords weapon skill you (which is 7) you will hit on 4's and cause wounds on 4's with a negative 2 armor modifier.  You will hit 2.5 times per round.  Out of those hits you will wound once per round.   He will be saving on a 3+ this time with his 5+ ward save.  On average you will wound less then once per round of combat (give or take).

This isn't the actual stats, this is theoryhammer.  For the actual stats I refer to Avians calculator over on his site at http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php
Siege - 1.23 (he doesn't have strength 8 so that was at strength 7)
CLS - .028 wounds

Well. We can agree that one should not get into combat with the lord with his stubborn immune to panic/terror/fear unit and pummel the rest of his army to a bloody pulp. The weapon won't matter when your not in combat with him. Against the general dwarf warrior and ironbreaker the seigiebreaker would be more cost effective.

ill be playing my friend soon in a 3000pt game and he will be running a run lord and run smiths, so naturally he will have many despell dice.He will be despelling most or all of my spells  so my question is should i still bring butchers or only bruizers?

Personally?  If he is running a heavy dispel army, I would bring some extra Yhetee and Ironguts.  Bruisers are ok but you need mass wounds versus Dwarf's and Ironguts are just the thing

Don't bring the butchers against a heavy dispel army. Even if you took a slaughtermaster and alot of butchers you'd only be able to match his magic defense, not overcome it. And though I don't often support them, take leadbelchers. A fistful of armor piercing S4 shots is exactly the thing to take down those dwarves. Soften the blocks up with belchers, charge in the guts and support the ironguts next turn with the belchers.

Is it US 3? because the dwarf itself is still US1 ( think of the dark elf beastmaster on a manticore)

It is considered "One model" as they are an upgrade and not a mount.  I don't have my army book with me but I am fairly sure it specifically states that in the description for the upgrade (will try and remember to get a quote for ya when I get home).

which might be better 2 giants and 1 gorger or 1 giant and 2 gorger

The shield bearers do in fact grant US3, as well as a good armor save and extra attacks.
At the point value that you'll be taking either 2 giants and a gorger or 2 gorgers and a giant, of those choices I'd suggest 2 giants. I know you need the gorgers to deal with artillery, but at 3000 points the dwarf player can take enough artillery, and some good units to guard them, and the gorgers will be wasted. The giants on the other hand, will act as fire magnets and if they get to the battle line will cause damage. Just remember to put the giant behind your ogres. Though I would suggest a third option; 3 gorgers. You are almost assured one each turn starting the second, and 3 might be too many to deal with.

Use as many butchers as you can legally fit in your list.
Bulls are purely for screening in this matchup; to do the damage (as allways), youve got the Ironguts. Units of 4+character should suffice, taking into account that one will eventually get lost to either CC/Shooting, as is most allways the case, ive begun to do so.

Naked units of 4 bulls each to screen 1 unit of Ironguts. Put Bellowers on them. Bullgorger until theyve all got +1 strength on them. S4 + Armor Piercing + 1S means -3 armor and a strength five hit, which means youll hit on 4s, wound on 3s and negate 3 armor points with each attack. And youve got 12 per bull unit if you take four. If you ask me, this is enough to cut down rank bonuses or even outnumber once the Ironguts get to grips with the units.

So why is it better to take 4 rather than 3 with this build?

'Cause you get 3 more attacks. Invaluable, and for only 35 points, whos complaining?

If youre having trouble with Dwarf Lords, great. A unit of 20 gnoblars fed at it each turn completely takes away its use, and unlike us Ogres, the dwarfs dont really have expendable units (except warriors since theyre so darn cheap). But if they dont isolate said unit, you can allways pursue and continue to get a rear charge. If your enemy turns, just charge from the former front of the unit with another unit.

And dont focus on killing the artillery, instead, focus on destroying the Dwarf army similarily to how youd eat a Baguette.  Bonecruncher really helps too,if you absolutely must take out that war machine, you can allways cast it on the crew and watch them die.

The + to wound and armor negation from the Bullgorger is the reason why you take as many butchers as you can (personally, I allways take 1 tyrant, 1 BSB and 2 butchers in my all-comers 2500 list). Make your IGs strength 8 and watch the Dwarf cry as his armor saves are virtually gone, as well as alot of his dwarfs. Your overall goal should allways be to feed the main part of his army with units, or partially wear them down with your Bulls if youre no fan of gnoblars but love ogres (like me), and destroy other parts piece meal. Force him to use part of his force to combat you. The Refused Flank is an ideal strategy for this matchup, seeing as hes too slow to re-deploy and you can really bring all that killing power to bear.

Also, this is a setup id use for a Tyrant specifically vs Dwarfs:

Tyrant
Siegebreaker (Shouldnt have to be described why)
Spangleshard ('Cause once those war machines start hitting you, youll effectively have a 3/4+ ward save and if your enemy has a great weapon then so much the better!)
Bullgut (Synergises well with the Spangleshard since youll be seeing quite a few cannon shots coming your way now, while regular missile fire should bounce off)

Aim to get a Trollguts off on him and flank or rear charge.
Flank/Rear charge, challenge, kill the character (dont challenge a Dwarf Lord if youre charging from the Rear), get a shipload of CR and run down the unit. Without ranks, and likely no wounds, the unit will get around 3 CR if it has standard and a musician. The other one is of course from outnumbering.

Against your regular trooper (or any dwarf for that matter), youll be hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and likely negating all armour. Combine with great protection from high strength attacks and the ability to ignore ranks, as well as Trollguts if you can cast it so that he can regenerate the few or only wound(s) made back on him if youre really unlucky, and youve got a monster.

i was wondering what to do against an unexpeienced dwarf player in a 750 point battle as im new?

Go for numbers, don't try anything special (like gorgers). And don't use magic items, or butchers. Take a cheap bruiser, a bunch of bulls and ironguts, and alot of gnoblars, as well as a unit of trappers. The idea is to slow his warmachines down with the trappers, and get as many flank charges as possible with your ironguts. Gnoblars are great for bogging down dwarves because dwarves (at 750 points) won't have enough men to get full ranks, and don't have enough attacks to obliterate your gnoblars.

Hi
I am soon going up against dwarfs, but as a newcommer to the the game, I would like to know more about their greenskin hatred rule. It seems like a good and fun way of playing his weakness.
So if anyone would explain the rule and some ideas of how best to take advantege of this, then rounds are on me  .

Just thought of something, and it's probably stretching the rules, but if you have a look out gnoblar in a unit, does the hate rule then aply?

Basically without giving too much away Dwarfs suffer hatred to all greenskins from the biggest Orc to the lowlest Gnoblar. The rules for hatred can be found in the rule book. Also I doubt that a look out gnoblar would cause them to hate the unit.

Cheers

Malg

Lookout gnoblars, sword gnoblars, tooth gnoblars and luck gnoblars do not cause hatred in dwarves because they do not count as actual models i.e they aren't really there. They are equipment. If hatred does what I think it does you can use it to force the dwarves to charge you, and the re-rolls they get in combat don't really matter because they'll be hitting you anyways.

It was only him and the bsb in hammerers or whichever the stubborn unit is the banner is what gave the unit the ward save if i remeber correctly.  He had a 3+ armor save.  Then he had a 5+ ward save, his strength was 5 his initiative was 6.  Dwarfs are incredibly good at dispelling ogre magic because they have nothing better to do in thier magic phase, so that only helped on the charge.  He didnt challenge , and i didnt challenge ethier because it was a horde of bulls with just a butcher in it.

you need to throw one of the famous hitty yet defensive tyrants(there is a couple of builds on here) at it and watch that dwarf fall.

i think the last thing a horde of bulls needs is a hitty tyrant, the bulls do great on thier own, i think he just had the perfect anti ogre weapon which caught me offguard.

Every Bull Horde needs a Hitty Tyrant!!!
Challenge him with the Tyrant. If he accepts with a Champ then pulp it and, if you survive the round , challenge again.
Fencers Blades and either the Greyback/Glitter combo or Tricksters Helm with the mandatory Mawseeker are golden. And the Tyrant gets 6 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s against the Lord whereas your Bulls would need 5s...
Gut Magic is highly situational versus Dwarfs. Try to get it off in your turn for that one combat phase because it's pretty much a guarantee that it's gone on his turn.
Of course, I would only take a Horde if I was facing a combat army...
Horde vs a gunline is just suicide lol. Take this with a grain of salt as my vast experience facing Dwarfs amounts to 2 games, one combat type and one pretty shooty...but I have won both of them
I also want to point out that I own 25 Gnoblars and a Trapper unit...That's it you say? How can you possibly win with just 25 Gnoblars?
I dunno lol. I just do

Dwarfs is my largest army and the one I have played the most out of all my armies in 7th and 8th ed, but not by much since I play a lot beastmen too.  I got into Ogres for two reasons, first I liked the models and had been collecting them slowly over the years, and second because both armies to make the move properly would require me to paint nearly a 100 models.  I have 10,000 of dwarfs, and as someone others have, said there are many ways to play them, but most of the time now days dwarfs use great weapons.  I am sadly short on great weapons.

I did a post in the Beastmen portion and I will do this one like wise talking about common units and why you will run into them, and then finish with common setup concepts.


Warriors and Long Beards (warrior type)
these guys should be the bulk  the force you fight, the many reason you will probably see less Long Beards than in the past is the extra cost for little gain per model.  A good reason you will see them, and something to keep in mind is that Long Beards can have Rune Standards with up to 3 magic runes that total less than 50 points.  I commonly put the Rune of Courage +30 and the Rune of Determination +20 (Immune to Fear and Terror and One use only make a leadership test on 1d6) on my Long Beards.  Another Rune I put on there is the Master Rune of Grungii +50 (5+ ward save vs ranged weapons and magic missiles)

BTW Dwarfs do not have volley, that is purely for bows only, so Crossbows, throwing axes, and guns need not apply as far as I know.

For ranged units there are basically thunders, which are awesome need 3s and 4s at long to hit, and are str4 armor piercing at 24 inch range.  They can have shields and I know some run them that way since they are the same stat line as warriors, just more costly and in light armor rather than heavy.  Quellers on the other hand have picked up some traction in 8th ed.  They can use great weapons, which is huge for dwarfs, but neither group can have magical banners.

Two more quick notes, Rangers are a single choice unless they have Bugman a named Hero, and because dwarfs only have a 3 inch movement base they tend to charge more often than shoot if you get too close to them and less likely charge you if you are just within short range for them.


Ironbreakers
 Were the only unit of dwarfs that got a 2+ armor save in 7th ed, but now the rules are different and they have a 3+.  They also can have a standard with up to 50 points of runes, and something to consider is that a dwarf can double up on non-master runes as long as the way the runes are, are different from other rune combos.  So with these guys I normally put a BSB in there with the rune that give +1 CR to the unit called the Rune of Battle +25, and the same rune plus the Rune of Determination +20 (the test leadership on 1d6 as before).   IB have a 4/4 s/t and are WS 5, so they are pretty elite troops, but they cost a lot too because of it.  Also if you are running WYSWYG they cost a lot of real life money to buy, so you tend to see them in smaller numbers.

Hammers
These almost always have a Dwarf Lord in them because he gives the unit bonuses for him being there.  While he is there the unit is fearless.  The unit is always Stubborn, so they are hard to move, they also come with Great Weapons, and can buy shields.   Someone said they have armor, that is partly true, they do have a 5+ armor save, but against even a str 4 bull with armor piercing the hammers will not get any saves.

 Slayers are harder to deal with imo, they can use 1 great weapon or 2 hand weapons, with the pair of weapons their strength raises to match the toughness of the person they are fighting maxing at 6.  This means that they can hurt your badasses.  They are also unbreakable, and have better initiative than other dwarfs.

War Machines are harder to deal with with dwarfs, but they can  start to cost a lot if people buy a lot of upgrades for them.  One thing to keep in mind is that an anvil is a war machine, so engineers can give bonuses to it so it count as defending terrain.  So it might take slightly more to kill than at first thought.   Also all war machines are stubborn.

Gyrocopters are more of an issue than many think at first in the new rules.  They use a low str flame template and fly around quickly. 


Oathstones are huge in 8th ed, but there are some rules to know about them.  There can not be any other hero or lord in the unit other than the oathstone bearer.  It gives him and the unit magic resist 1, he must challenge or accept challenges with the bearer.  Once it is placed the unit can never move unless it flees.  However, the unit can be flanked, hit in the rear, but they are not disrupted and they can make supporting attacks in any direction.  If the unit does flee for any reason the bearer gives up his vp as if he had died.   There is no limit to how many you can have, but you can not have it with shield bearers.

Shield Bearers are a general choice that must be a dwarf lord.  it gives him two extra attacks at WS5, S4, I2, and it gives him a 1+ armor save which can not be improved.  I personally ran this with the Master Rune of Steel +50 (all incoming attacks greater than strength 5 is treated as strength 5), and I think it is called the Rune of Resistance +25 which allows you (to reroll all failed armor saves). So at the very worst a Dwarf Lord with this combo could have a 4+ armor save with rerolls, and a 4+ talisman ward save for 45 more points out of their 125 allowed.  The last thing I would do is get the Rune of Speed +5 on my weapon so I had a magic weapon that gave me +1 Initiative.

Anvils are used only by Rune Lords, and can have up to 150 points in runes.  This means they can be quite offensive, or extremely defensive against magic or melee.  Common items now taken steal one power dice and give it to the dwarfs in your phase.  With a combination of items the dwarfs can get up to a +3 defense against spells, and due to the lag of how runes work they can have up to 6 normal dispel scrolls and  6 more special dispel scrolls that eats the spell as well on a 4+ if points allow that many hero and lord choices.

It is very common that a dwarf player will have more dispel dice than you have casting dice, and they have nothing to do in their turn but dispel any RiP spells in play on their turn.  I would never expect to have any spell last long even if it is not able to be dispelled.


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Most gun lines still have 2 blocks of melee 25 models or more with nearly max artillery with 30 to 50 ranged troops.  It is the same with all of them too, if it goes off in their favor, regardless of your army you will have more dead or fleeing than moving forward.  I have shot to a man a Warriors of Chaos army by end of turn 2 at 2250 with a tournament list.  That is not normal though, and I could not fail a roll...  my two Organ Guns wounded 34 out of 40 hits for example.  Also gun lines normally run an anvil so they can slow key units.

Large melee armies suffer from other armies because of greater mobility (While Ogres are faster, they are bulky and really do not count as being more mobile imo).  However, many or all of the units will have great weapons, and will probably rune dwarf lord or a rune lord with an anvil so they can get flank charges with greater ease.

Played a game today against a Dwarf Player representing Belgium at the next ETC...

Man, I've never felt hopeless like this. His list (approximatively) :

Runelord with anvil

Thane with BSB, 100 pts Magic Banner that auto-dispells RiP in 12" at the end of his magic phase
Master Engie

2* 25 Warriors, FC, HW

20 Hammerers : FC, Shiels
20 Miners, FC
2* Catapults

2* Organ Gun

The Banner will autodispell all the Gut Magic spells in 12" around his BSB. My 2 casters wer u-s-e-l-e-s-s.
His shooting kill half of my units before going to close combat.
Then in close combat these dudes are as hard as ogres, have better armor and all have S5 attacks, in units of 20+ infantry.

So, magic useless, fire is tearing me apart, and the guy is better than me when I get to close combat.

Holy sh- ?

Did you try do cast 2 Bonecrusher per turn ? I don't think it would have save your game but it's the only useful thing I can think of if the Gutmagic buffs are dispelled every turn.

I was not at the game, but a person who makes a list like this doesn't normally miss a chance to keep their general near the important part of their army. so with a BSB that is leadership 9 or 10 rerolled, and that is if the war machines are not immune to panic for 20 points they can be unbreakable.

Even if this was not picked to fight you, it is a very normal dwarf list.  It is also the reason why I am not playing dwarfs right now, in 7th the big thing was to have shields, now it is to have great weapons.  Organ Guns do 2-10 hits that are str 5 with AP, so no one is getting an armor save.  The catapults are often times flame attacks since it costs 5 pts. 


There are several tricks I can see just from a glance, so let me take a guess at a few other things.  He used the Anvil early on to slow certain units down to hinder you doing combo charges or to prevent your deathstar from moving as fast.  He used his Anvil later to either get a flank charge, or to get a charge in his shooting phase.  This last tactic is very common on the board edges with Miners.  He Probably had the Warriors on the outside of his Hammer unit, which might of had a 5+ ward save against missile attacks.  That unit is stubborn so it is not going anywhere fast, and the BSB probably was in that unit too.

He probably had the Master Engineer within 3 inches of both catapults, since you choose to use his ability once per turn after the dice are rolled, and he can effect more than unit at a time, but only 1 per turn or something of that wording.  If I was him I would either nullify a table edge by playing both units of Organ Guns together, knowing anyone who goes that was will pay 2 or 3 times the 240 points sitting there defending it with Ogres that is.

Warriors and Miners with Great weapons are Strength 5, the Hammers are base strength 4, and all dwarfs need 3s to hits Ogres.  Also that same BSB banner gives +2 to dispelling, making dwarfs a base +4 to each attempt... if they took the staff too that is another +1. which puts them about normal for most armies who run a level 4 wizard.


IMO Ironguts open the cans, so you can eat your dwarf without pause.  Gut Magic is limited, but negating armor saves is about the best you can hope for.  I would have kept the Butchers/Slaughtermasters out of a unit or moved them out once I saw that banner, and gone away from the Organ Gun toward the catapult or anvil and blown it up.  We move faster, and these Dwarfs have poor range outside of the Organ Guns.  Catapults are better at hitting single models, but they still miss a lot of the time, and I would have to reread the wording on the Anvil, but I do not believe it can now hit a single non-monster unit.   I would have put Bulls into his warriors, if you were running them with Ogre Clubs, which is the best way atm imo.  I would not even worry about the BSB, he is not going to be around long enough, Dwarfs kill people with CR 3 or 4 times more times than with their weapons.  Ogres can out CR any Dwarf unit out there, we just lose a lot too, so we get thinned out fast, it comes down to how much damage Dwarfs do in the shooting phase.

Gorgers are always a must, once your units are in combat the Anvil has less to do, but if it can move a unit into your flank it has done a lot, so engaging the Anvil is still important.  Another think to remember one bad roll, a 3 or lower followed by a 1 and that 500 model of the Anvil is gone.  It doesn't a wound, it just goes bye bye.  If you are playing it safe with an Anvil you only fail on a 1, but I have seen that a lot too... I personally would not take a Anvil into a tournament, if they have comp scores you get nailed for them, and they can blow themselves up so easy.  A more powerful leader is the Dwarf Lord on Shield Bearers who costs about 300 pts, but that is another story.

Also Scrappies and Trappers are always important in any lists for Ogres, for the reasons well known. heh



PS... sorry had an after thought... Dwarf BSB are painfully weak in combat, anyone can crush them, they have a 4+ Armor save and at best a 5+ ward save and 2 wounds.   They have the old rules, that say that they can not have any magic items at all even if not wielding a magic standard, and they often times can be nearly a 300 pt model...   

Dwarf bsb can have runes if the dont have a runic standard. And they don't cost 300 points.

65 + 25(bsb) + 75 runes + 2 shield = 167
 WS6 T5 A3 3+ save before runes
they're pretty good

Dwarf bsb can have runes if the dont have a runic standard. And they don't cost 300 points.

65 + 25(bsb) + 75 runes + 2 shield = 167
 WS6 T5 A3 3+ save before runes
they're pretty good

So I read this while I was at work and thought, wtf this person doesn't seem to know dwarfs at all.  I was about to post saying something just like that, not because I am rude, but because I know dwarfs very well and thought I was a 100% right.   However, I second thought my decision and waited to reply till I got home and could quote the rules properly.

I am glad I did, I saved an egg or two... however we are both partly wrong, so I do not feel totally bad.

Dwarf book Page 51 states, "One Thane in the army may carry the Battle Standard for +25 points.  This Thane cannot be the army's General.

The Thane carrying the Battle Standard cannot choose any extra weapons nor can he use a shield.  If a Thane is carrying the Battle Standard, he can have a runic standard (no points limit).  If he carries a runic standard he cannot carry any other runic item, but can have an Oath Stone".

So I was partly right and wrong...  If he does have a Runic Standard he can not have a shield, so he is a 4+ armor, and at best a 5+ ward save via the Rune of Guarding +30 pts.  He still only has 2 wounds though, but yes he is WS 6 and T5, however I have lost enough Dwarf BSBs to know they die like chumps.   Also if you were going for the runes with the most cost IE (Master Rune of Valaya +100) which is the rune that auto dispells all spells in 12 inches of the bearer and gives a +2 to dispell attempts, then like all dwarf items it can have a total of three runes on it...  You could have (Strollaz's Rune +55) which gives all dwarfs that are not gyrocopters a free move before the game, and then lastly (Rune of Slowness +50) which reduces the distance each unit that charges you moves.  Yes you could take that rune 3 times if you want, but you only take the highest of the 3 dice you roll, not all three dice added up.


So that could be a total of 205 pts in just Runes, plus 65 for the Thane, plus 25 for being a BSB, and if you wanted to just waste points imo you could have an Oath Stone on him for another +25 bringing an absolute max point total to 320 points.  I do not think saying that me saying Dwarf BSBs can cost nearly 300 points is far off, since I eluded to it being below 300 but above 200.

Now if you go with a normal Standard, you can be silly with defense.  Rune of Fire or Rune of Speed on your weapon so your weapon is either flaming or you have +1 initiative.  Master Rune of Gromril for a 1+ armor save that can not be modified better than that, and the Master Rune of Spite on the Talisman for +45 for a 4+ ward save.  Then the Dwarf BSB would be more moderate at 165 pts, or slightly more with an Oath Stone.  The reason why I would not want an Oath Stone is once it is placed you or your unit can never move, no other character can join your unit, and you must offer or accept with the character all challenges.  What it does is awesome, and I love Oath Stones, just not on my BSB.

Back in the day I ran the super high static CR combo with a unit of Ironbreakers and BSB.  It would give your unit a static CR of 9, and +1 CR to all friendly Dwarf units in 6 inches.  That is a discussion for what once was though, lol now that same unit combo is CR 8 and is not as cool.

I didn't think about the cost of one with runic standard  I never use them as it makes him too vunerable.

I always had the thane of pain as my bsb fury cleaving swiftness and stone.



I faced a gt style gunline wednesday the rune of slowness really slowed me down. makes a nice combined charge into a single charge or in my case a no charge.

our ogre clubs were vital though getting rid of HA saves when most dwarfs are now weilding GW really helped chop down the numbers.

rune of might is one to watch for made my toothcracker bulls get hit with S8 instead of S4

I'll try remember other things too and come back

The final point to remember is although he had  4 bolt throwers 2 grudge throwers 3 big locks of infantry and plenty of magic defence It was my ogres that won.  yay go me

The way I understand Runes of Slow is that if you take more than one, which can only be done on the BSB, you keep the highest result.  However, if you take it on the BSB X-number times, and once on the unit the BSB is in, you keep the highest result from the BSB, and add the units d6 as well to the number.


I am not sure anyone would do that, but it is not a horrible idea however it works with a gun line.  You can also take Bugman and his warrior or long beard rangers, which doesn't count toward the limit of Rangers, and a 2nd warrior or long beard unit.  If they are long beards, they can have a magic standard and are str 4 base.  With Thrown Axes that can be pretty nasty imo but it would cost a ton. heh