Hardest list you can think up

My friend really wants to try out some of the new stuff from the Khaine book (specifically Alarielle, Incarnate of Life).  However, he feels that it isn't fair if he is using new, potentially broken stuff when neither of my armies (ogres and lizards) have received anything.

So, the deal we have is this: he wants to pull out all of the stops with elves, but he wants me to bring the meanest list I possibly can to go against him.

So yes, this is going to be list tailoring, but that is the entire point of our game this weekend.

I am looking for all of your ideas as to what to bring to make the hardest list possible to fight against elves at 2500 points.  I'm expecting to see a bunch of wild riders, a big group of white lions with the banner of the world dragon and the new Alarielle, maybe a frost phoenix or something. 

I am currently thinking of 6 poison/sniper maneaters with the flaming banner (stopping regen) and 2 ironblasters.  I will probably run all of my core as an irongut bus, protected by the rune maw.  Obviously, all the characters will be hiding in there.  Definitely have the SM as the general, though I am not sure on lore (either death or beasts), and make sure that I have the hellheart on hand.

Any other ideas?  What would you bring if you were asked to be as nasty as possible?

Against elves you need leadies. I'm not sure the flaming maneaters get you anything, lots of flaming wards in the elf books and you can stop regen in the magic phase. Or take maw on the L4 and pack a firebelly with the hellheart to handle regen.

The idea with the maneaters is to take out Alarielle before she can use her regrowth field to generate too many losses.

Leadies are a good idea (minus the unit wide regen field that Alarielle provides).  If regen gets removed for the whole turn thanks to the firebelly, bringing 8 or 10 of them is a good idea.  I thought that regen only was removed for the phase that the flaming hit occurred (so a fireball wipes out regen for the magic phase, but its back up for the shooting phase).

Also, having the SM be a maw caster isn't a bad idea.  Regen and toughness should really help keep my units around.  I was thinking of having the crown of command on the SM, along with a dispel scroll and maybe a ward.

I thought that regen only was removed for the phase that the flaming hit occurred (so a fireball wipes out regen for the magic phase, but its back up for the shooting phase).

This is correct m8.

I thought that regen only was removed for the phase that the flaming hit occurred (so a fireball wipes out regen for the magic phase, but its back up for the shooting phase).

This is correct m8.

Just because it is another turn. If you hit something with flaming attacks in the shooting phase, regen is then dropped for the remaining shooting phase and subsequent phases.

I am not a big fan of leadies in a all round list but against elves i agree, they can be deadly. Lore of Heavens is great with them

Is there any reason you couldn't stick the Flaming Banner on the BSB and sit him in a large unit of Leadies? give him a couple of pistols so he can shoot too, and just aim the broadside at Alarielle's unit.

How about a nice big unit of Mournfang to charge in and squish some elves?

How about a nice big unit of Mournfang to charge in and squish some elves?

How big are you thinking?  4?  6?  gleaming pennant or dragonhide banner?

Ok, first list attempt.  What do you think?

SM: level 4 Maw, great weapon, crown of command, dispel scroll, talisman of endurance
Bruiser: great weapon, BSB, runemaw
Firebelly: level 2, great weapon, hellheart
1 unit ironguts (13 models): full command, lookout, standard of disc
1 unit gnoblars: (10 models)
1 unit mournfang (4 models): heavy armor, ironfists, bellower, standard
1 unit leadbelchers (4 models): bellower
1 unit leadbelchers (4 models): bellower
3x sabretusks
Ironblaster
Ironblaster

Will you be using Khaine magic?

Will you be using Khaine magic?

No, I think we are just doing regular magic.

I think a Heavens Slaughtermaster (If you insist on Leadbelchers) and a Maw Butcher over the Firebelly. Then split those Mournfang into 2 units of 2 and i think you have it

Elves suffer from template damage.  Their small bases and low T are their major weakness so templates hurt alot.

What kind of templates do we have:
Scraplaunchers, hellheart (miscast) and firebellies.

If he is taking all the broken items from the elves, then I suggest these.

Two level 2 firebellies with: one with hell heart and one with dispell scroll and ruby ring.
2 iron blasters.  1 scraplauncher (I know that these are a weakpoint, but their template is a major threat to elves).  6 maneaters with scout and switstride (or poision sniper -- really, this not that effective) and banner of swiftness.  You'll need to get into his artillery/bunkers.  Standard triple 'tusks.

But, if you really want play dirty/cheat a little, take a level 1 butcher with Hellheart and a lv 4 slaughtermaster of death with the greedy fist.  It has been errata'd but, given the circumstances, would be appropriate.  Because elves rely so much on their magic, having the ability to neutralize that aspect is crucial.  BSB rune maw.

But, if you really want play dirty/cheat a little, take a level 1 butcher with Hellheart and a lv 4 slaughtermaster of death with the greedy fist.  It has been errata'd but, given the circumstances, would be appropriate.  Because elves rely so much on their magic, having the ability to neutralize that aspect is crucial.  BSB rune maw.

Cheat as an option?  Wow that's a new one.

I wouldn't suggest this because of the logical answer the Elves will have in the form of the Banner of the World Dragon granting them a 2+ ward against any snipes.

I have no problem pulling out the dirtiest tricks I can think of, but seeing as this is my friend, I'm not really comfortable with outright cheating (I do want him to play with me again ).  That said, the look on his face when I announce the hellheart is one of the funniest things ever.

As far as the list is concerned, I could drop one of the units of leadbelchers to add a scraplauncher, but they have limited use against white lions.  3+ armor will stop a lot of shots, and only a few will get killing blow.  A solid hit on the white lions may only kill 4-5 of them.  Meanwhile, the leadbelchers would have -2 to their armor, so a decent broadside should do more damage.

I've been thinking about minigiant's suggestion of the heavens slaughtermaster, replacing the firebelly with a butcher.  On the plus side, it would really help the leadbelcher shooting.  On the other hand, it makes it harder to remove regen.  If I keep the firebelly, I should get rid of the great weapon to make sure that I can strip regen before the ironguts swing.  I was originally planning on just using the breathe weapon to do so, but I just remembered that regen is removed on hit, not on wound.

The game got moved back a week, so I still have time to theorycraft on this, so keep going with the ideas, everyone.  They are really appreciated.

But, if you really want play dirty/cheat a little, take a level 1 butcher with Hellheart and a lv 4 slaughtermaster of death with the greedy fist.  It has been errata'd but, given the circumstances, would be appropriate.  Because elves rely so much on their magic, having the ability to neutralize that aspect is crucial.  BSB rune maw.

Cheat as an option?  Wow that's a new one.

I wouldn't suggest this because of the logical answer the Elves will have in the form of the Banner of the World Dragon granting them a 2+ ward against any snipes.

Banner of the world dragon won't stop wizard level stripping from the greedy fist.  The erratta will.  But against the obscenity that the current elves can put together, a little plausible deniability is not innapropriate.

And please, I find a small amount of "cheating" goes on in this game all the time. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, sometimes you really can't tell.

If your opponent is going to cheese it up against a handicapped list onpurpose, then I think your "friend" should be cool with it.  But hey whatever you think is fair.  At one time deathfisting was legal.

Even if you somehow make it to combat against the Cav Bus the magic users won't be sitting in the front rank ready to cop hits from the Greedy Fist I wouldn't think.

Template wise, I'd be tempted to look at our lesser used monster. The thundertusk has a couple of things which make it dangerous to elves. Firstly, the stone thrower attack will hit roughly 20 models on a clean strike, wounding on 4's (and one 2). It can do a lot of damage, and won't destroy itself with a misfire. Secondly the ASL aura is vital vs those pointy eared re-rolls. Stop them re-rolling to hit and you will take considerably less damage in combat. Flank the TT with two solid combat units, and the elves lose one of their big advantages in the main fight. Lastly, which is more of a small nicety which may pay dividends, is the harpoon launcher. 36" S6 and D3 wounds means the launcher could snipe lone characters and even kill a bolt thrower in one shot.

He's a bit of a swiss army knife I guess, but one with a lot of potential, and a lot of applications vs elves.

Id probably go with

Lv4 on heavens with sickle
Lv2 butcher on maw with HH
Lv1 Firebelly with RRoR and dispel scroll
Runemaw BSB

10ish IG, FC, std of Dic, Lookout Gnob
8ish Ironfists Ogres, FC, Lookout Gnob

2 x 3 man units of Leadbelchers
8 scouting, ITP BoOP Maneaters
2 cats

2 scraplaunchers
Thundertusk if points allow

Even if you somehow make it to combat against the Cav Bus the magic users won't be sitting in the front rank ready to cop hits from the Greedy Fist I wouldn't think.

By deathfisting I am referring to the tactic of using the two deathsnipes spells that cause auto-hits, and thus stripping levels of magic from the users no matter where they are in the unit.  Which, as I stated has been errata'd. 

But remember, warlock and sister bus units don't have full command groups.  They only have a champion upgrade.  So to fill out a full rank of 5 fighty models, he would have to have 4 masters at around 100 pts min.  Then he would have to have his sorceress in the back ranks.  That is an awful lot of points in one unit.

Both warlocks and sisters are still only T3 (but with a 4++ ward).  They die to massed shooting very easily.  There is a reason why elves have an irrational fear of leadbelchers.

It's sound tactically, although as it has been errata'd....it is a somewhat redundant tactic.

I think you may be interested in reading my "hardest list" thread. It is for all round games but still, you might learn something

I think you may be interested in reading my "hardest list" thread. It is for all round games but still, you might learn something

I've read that.  Heck, I've commented in that.  Rereading it did remind me of the majesty of 2 units of 2 mournfang.  Good for chaff, and less likely to be a waste of points should you have an unlucky combat or bad charge.

Since I'm not running the dragonhide banner, it might be a good idea to go back to that and have 2 units of 2 with a standard in each.

I am still on the fence as to which lore to run on the SM.  I think that if I stick with firebelly and maw, then I want to keep the leadbelchers in two groups, as that lets me split my fire.  If I switch to heavens (with gruts), it might be better to run the leadbelchers in one group so that I can more effectively buff all of my shooting.

I am still on the fence as to which lore to run on the SM.  I think that if I stick with firebelly and maw, then I want to keep the leadbelchers in two groups, as that lets me split my fire.  If I switch to heavens (with gruts), it might be better to run the leadbelchers in one group so that I can more effectively buff all of my shooting.

I actually think you have this backward.

With Maw/Fire, the only ranged damage buff you have is flaming sword, which can only affect a single unit.  Leadbelchers with flaming sword will make your opponent cringe.  Thus a single larger unit of leadbelchers is better with those lores than two smaller ones.

Heavens magic is really easily bubbled, especially with Gruts.  Bubble Harmonic is a casting value of 12 ... with Grut's you need to roll a 6 ... which is about 75% success on two dice or 95% on 3 dice.  If the leadbelchers were a single unit, you would still roll two dice (to avoid lost concentration) or 3 dice if the spell was important.  It is just as easy to buff two smaller units of Leadbelchers with heavens magic (and the added benefit of bubbling harmonic on your other units as well ... mournfang love it).

Also consider the secondary options the Leadbelchers provide.

Having Maw is a way to turn Leadbelchers into a scary close combat unit.  For that option, you need them in a single unit (because regardless of +1 str or +1 toughness, they aren't scary in groups of 4).  Luckily, the firebelly provides an additional source of ranged output (yay for fireballs), so you don't need to split your shooting to deal with chaff.

Having Heavens magic means you out range most opponents you will face.  Having extra potential chaff units will give you extra turns to cast comet/thunderbolt/chain lightning.  Small units of 3-4 leadbelchers can serve as additional chaff in a pinch, large units cannot.

TL:DR - Run a single unit of 6-8 Leadbelchers with a level 4 of Maw.  Run two units of 3-4 Leadbelchers with a Level 4 of Heavens.

-Snark

We gave the list a run today.  I brought the same list you see above.  The only difference is that I split the mournfang into 2 units of 2, each with just a banner.

This is what I played against:

  (A) Alarielle

  (B) BSB

  (GG) 30 Glade Guard

  (W1) 5 Warlocks

  (W2) 5 Warlocks

  (MoP) Master on Pegasus

  (WR1) 7 Wild Riders

  (WR2) 7 Wild Riders

  (FP) Frost Phoenix

  (DR) 5 Dark Riders

For magic, I had fireball and fire cloak (not that it ever mattered.  I cast 1 fireball, it miscast, and did 3 hits), and the only 2 spells I ever tried to cast was bubbleguts and toothcracker.  He was using the banner of the broken dragon, so casting on the glade guard was pretty pointless.

As for the game:

Deployment
----------


I deployed centrally, with everything staying in range of bubble cast maw spells.

He put his glade guard central, and everything else is set to move around all of the flanks.  It is going to be a fast army with strong shooting.  The glade guard have poison shots, and the master has the sea dragon cloak on.

The terrain was all hills.  They didn't block movement, but did block line of sight.

Turn 1 - Alarielves
-------------------


Elves get the first turn.  He vanguards the units on the right, but leaves the units on the left back.  His dark riders shoot 3 of the gnoblars, who then panic and run through my entire line.  Good thing no one cares.  His only spell is throne of vines.  His poison shots deal 7 wounds to the irongut block, but no big deal, there are more where that came from.

Turn 1 - Ogres
--------------


On my turn, I get a long charge off on the wild riders on the right.  I move everything else forward, but keep everything within leadership and bubbleguts range.  The gnoblars keep running.  The two rightmost sabres move into chaffing position.

On magic I get bubbleguts off, and use my last 2 dice to dispel throne.

My first cannon explodes, so no more cannon on turn one.  My second one hits the frost phoenix for 4 wounds, so the lucky bastard lives. The leadbelchers kill 2 dark riders and a warlock.

The mournfang take off 4 wild riders and win by 1, so no more frenzy.  I did lose one in the process, though.

Turn 2 - Alarielves
-------------------


On his next turn, he moves the master up into flanking position.  The dark riders and the warlocks plow through their respective sabretusks, but thats fine.  The phoenix moves up to threaten the leadbelchers.  The free wild riders slam into my mournfang.

Nothing exciting happened on magic.  He casts throne, then both sets of warlocks try and fail to cast soul blight.

Shooting kills another irongut.  The pillowfight between the mournfang and the neutered wild riders on the right continues, with him doing 1 wound and me killing 2 (1 left).  The other wild riders completely demolish my mournfang (even with the 4+ regen) and overrun into my leadbelchers.

Turn 2 - Ogres
--------------


The ironguts charge the wild riders to help out the leadbelchers.  The gnoblars reform, and the other sabre moves to flank the warlocks.

Magic was much the same as last time: bubbleguts and dispel throne.

Alarielle had healed the phoenix, so it was back at 1 wound.  The cannon hits it again, and again misses killing it by 1 wound.  The leadbelchers panic the dark riders of the table.

The pillowfight continues between the mournfang and the wild rider.  No wounds made, but he makes his break test.  The leadbelcher/irongut combo takes out all of the wild riders but 2, and they are run down.  Here is where I lost the game.  I was worried about a master in the flank, so I reformed to face him.  Had I kept pressing forward toward the glade guard, I would be able to handle any flank charges with ease while getting closer and closer to hellheart range.

Turn 3 - Alarielves
-------------------


The warlocks charge the leadbelchers in the flank.  The master charges the ironblaster and the frost phoenix charges the leadbelchers.  Magic was pretty big.  He rolled double 6s, and was able to both get throne and regrowth on the wild riders.  I stopped flesh to stone, though.  Shooting kills another irongut.

The warlocks kill a leadbelcher, but they hit back surprisingly well, taking out 3 of them.  The phoenix doesn't do a single wound, but wins through the flank charge.  He doesn't over run into the cannon, though.  The master takes out the cannon easily.  The pillowfight continues.

Turn 3 - Ogres
--------------


The ironguts charge the warlocks, and take them out with impact hits.  Nothing happened for magic.  I reform to face the glade guard.

The pillowfight continues.

Turn 4 - Alarielves
-------------------


The frost phoenix moves back to get healed up.  Alarielle regrows more wild riders.  The master moves around to get ready for charges later.

The warlocks finally seal the deal on the last mournfang, though I am quite proud of him for how long he lasted.

Turn 4 - Ogres
--------------


I don't have much left.  I throw the sabre into the side of the glade guard, hoping I might get lucky and take out Alarielle or the BSB if they failed a fear check.  No such luck, but I really wasn't expecting much.  I move the ironguts forward toward the glade guard, which I should have been doing since turn 1.  I'm finally in hellheart range, though, so that's good.

Turn 5 - Alarielves
-------------------


Everything charges.  Firebelly gets taken out before he could breathe on them.  I have my slaughtermaster and 3 ironguts left at the end of it, and we call it there.


My thoughts at the end of it:

The elf list was irritating, but I don't think it was broken.  Alarielle's regen bubble is really annoying, but since she is infantry, she has to stay with the infantry.  It either cuts down on the army's maneuverability if they want to stay in the bubble, or it forces them to sit back, in which case their most deadly units are not doing anything for several rounds.  Also funny is that her healing bubble cannot work on cavalry units.  Elves that take her really are setting themselves up for just using infantry, which negates a lot of their strongest units (especially wild riders and warlocks)

Runemaw definitely helped against the warlocks.  No magic ever hit my ironguts.

I think that my biggest downfall was letting myself get distracted by the things on the flank.  Looking back at it, I think I should have treated my units as flank guards protecting a spear driven straight into the elven heart.  Without Alarielle, the whole army would have crumbled.  The wild rider only lived because of regen and regrowth.  There were many times that a unit would have failed a fear test without the reroll.

I think I should have done something more like this:



This lets my drive my ironguts forward quickly, while covering my flanks and still letting me address threats no matter where they are.  If he brings eagles, I can either halt my advance and take them out with the mournfang or the ironguts, then continue pressing forward.

Finally, I made a mistake in shooting the phoenix, rather than the master.  Even though the master has a 3+ ward vs shooting, I think that would have a better chance of taking him out.  One failed ward save gives me a 2/3 chance of killing him, rather than the 1/3 chance I kept barely missing on the bird.  Also, the master was WAY more disruptive to my strategy than the phoenix ever was, just due to positioning.