New WOC in February

So they are the next army after all. I have some pictures to share if that is ok with the mods.

That depends on the source of the pictures.

I thought daemons were first, but ow well, to me it is first come first serve 

Edit: it's fine, post it.
I'm guessing it's the white dwarf leak, that is all over the internet already

I want to see this

Dragon Ogres

Vilitch

Tzeentch big beastie

Throgg

Khorne big beastie

Forsaken

Chaos Lord

Chariot

Chariot


Some stuff I like, some I think looks bad (Forsaken...)

After just converting 3 juggernaught mournfang hybrids and 3 converted chaos monsters for my mournfang in my chaos ogre army, I'm a little annoyed at how cool those dragon ogres are.... Oh well, can never have too many mournfang!

Huzzah! Makes me excited! Excited to make miniatures to crush my non-existent opponents in non-existent games of WHFB!!! Most favorite - Dragon Ogres, the Tentacle hell thing (aka Mutalith Vortex Beast which is a much better name actually), Chariots, and Forsaken (even though the suck they will offer up lots of new modeling fun). Least favorite - Throgg. Why does he have a cape!? Totally not brutal enough. Looks like a dumb ass troll playing dress up. What do you think!?

I think Throgg looks like a dressed up River Troll. I like both big beasties. The dragon ogres aren't bad but I'll wait for better pictures to pass my final judgement. I really despises the Forsaken models. The rest looks good.

As the Troll King, Throgg needed something to set him apart from the rest of the Trolls, so clearly a cape is what makes a king a king...
on the other hand, that creature pulling the second chariot might be a suitable basis for a mournfang replacement

Crap... Those Dragon Ogres looks da bomb. Getting for conversions ASAP!

Love most stuff but was never fond of the bright blue for Tzeench.

Grrr... 

I have a full-on WOC monster army already converted up. I made my Throgg from a blood bowl troll (and he has an ogre standard for a cape). I also converted some really cool dragon ogres from DE cold ones. My issue is the bulky front legs of the new dragon ogre models. They look bigger than the shaggoth front legs. Does that mean the front legs atrophy as they age? These models look potentially bigger than the current shaggoth as well.

Oh my...

Those are all really awesome. Can't tell really whats going on with the forsaken though.  The dragon ogres are amazing...

Would have been nice for a Chaos War Mammoth.. Instead we got those weird monster things...

Would have been nice for a Chaos War Mammoth.. Instead we got those weird monster things...

I agree, I think think theyre cool but I am a but disapointed with how "Demony" and mutated everything looks.  6th Ed. Triple army book will always be my golden age though.

New Dragon Ogres at last!

Oh come on!  Throgg iz da troll o' trolls!  He'z in chargg, an da guy in chargg getz da cape!

Hell, if anything the rest of him looks too civilized.  That's not even a proper club; it's a hammer!  Trolls don't need hammers!

(although I AM thankful for the loin cloth  )

I can definitely see me getting some dragon ogres to convert into bull centaurs for my CD army.  And I really like the Tzeench monster; if there's one thing I always though WoC was short on, it's tentacles.  Seriously.

Can't wait for a new WHF book to chew through.  It's been...what?  Nine, ten months since the last?

Now THOSE monsters are proper Chaos! I never liked the curious amounts of rules and restrictions on what Demons should look like, particularly when they're, well, CHAOS. Tzeentchian stuff should look like a shimmering formless nightmare, and that Khornate beast looks like a proper embodiment of fury.

Not keen on Villich though. His artwork showed him looking a bit more twisted and insane, and less bulky and lordlike. Well, I get he's glued to a Chaos Lord, but the body he's glued to looked a lot less sentient.

Really liking the new Chaos models but I will agree it's a bit of a push towards lots of Daemons in the WoC army.  The big monsters are meant for Deamon armies IMHO.  Why not update the WoC core units instead of adding a bunch of monsters?  Oh well, I really like the way the models are looking, and am pretty excited to perhaps start a small army.  Nice.

Well, for every new update, you can expect at least one big monster-type model, and then one or two new chariot-sized units.  And maybe the forsaken will actually be worth taking.  Besides, there's nothing to say that WoC won't be getting new core choices, its just that core models aren't really the best way to drum up interest.  you want the big and flashy for your teasers.

I dig the idea of using the dragon ogres as mournfangs--I bet they will become quite popular with ogre players.

love throgg and my new mournfang i mean dragon ogres...

Wonder whether the Drogres will be Monstrous Infantry or Cavalry in this incarnation?

Cavalry - I think they give them swiftstride and other boosts just to sell more models.

Something that worked on me by just looking at them.

Well, for every new update, you can expect at least one big monster-type model, and then one or two new chariot-sized units.  And maybe the forsaken will actually be worth taking.  Besides, there's nothing to say that WoC won't be getting new core choices, its just that core models aren't really the best way to drum up interest.  you want the big and flashy for your teasers.

Googling around it seems Forsaken will now be core.

Well, for every new update, you can expect at least one big monster-type model, and then one or two new chariot-sized units.  And maybe the forsaken will actually be worth taking.  Besides, there's nothing to say that WoC won't be getting new core choices, its just that core models aren't really the best way to drum up interest.  you want the big and flashy for your teasers.

Googling around it seems Forsaken will now be core.

Still won't make me take them.

I wont either because my lists and their core are already built, painted, themed and fluffed.

But maybe they'll kick ass? I dunno...

(Unless Chaos Warriors get nerfed into the ground of course...)

You might be taking them when you find out that (again, according to rumors) Marauders won't be able to take marks.

Yeah I built both my WoC lists without any Marauders at all because of the upcoming book. I just don't see their epicness surviving...

I wont either because my lists and their core are already built, painted, themed and fluffed.

How can you know this without knowing the new book. My Ogre lists changed quite a bit when our new book came out for example.

D...

I've heard rumor that WoC will also get the Chimera as a Rare choice and possibly a lord mount as well... so long as they bump up the stats from the SoM version that could make for some interesting builds. Of course like any rumors this could be a load of tosh.

On the CotEC forum a guy posted the new stats for Skullcrushers

3 wounds
3 attacks str 5 (str 6 on the charge)
T4
deamonic attacks (magical probably?)

He posted a photo of the page also, but was too blurry to see

I wont either because my lists and their core are already built, painted, themed and fluffed.

How can you know this without knowing the new book. My Ogre lists changed quite a bit when our new book came out for example.

D...

Because regardless of whether Forsaken are good or bad, I won't be taking them. And regardless of what happen to Marauders, I won't be taking them either. My lists are full plate.

Unless they remove the Chaos Warrior....  My Chaos Warrior units will either get bigger or smaller depending on their changes.

The best thing I heard was that Ensorcelled Hand Weapons are now an upgrade that must be purchased for the Skullcrushers and Chaos Knights!  About friggin time!!

Some more info...

- Dragon Ogres now have access to Halberds
- Chaos Chariots can arm the passenger (I don't know if the guy in front is armed the same) with a Flail, and if it has the same options as the Gorebeast Chariot a Greatweapon (the Chariot shows Halberd and Flail, the Gorebeast shows GW)
- Characters can be mounted on either chariot, and the kit itself comes with an impressive cloak to represent them, and 4 god-specific heads
- Chaos Knight Champions, called Doom Knights, are S5 (so S6 with Ensorcelled Weapons, S7 with Lances) and have Eye of the Gods
- The Soul Feeder gift has, in the words of the person playing WoC in the battle report, 'gives him a chance of regaining lost wounds in combat' while the Chalice of Chaos gives a 'great, if random, benefit in one of his turns'
- The Chaos Lord in the battle report was got an Eye of the God roll for killing a unit champion. I know they did this when the 7th ed book came out before it was errata'd, but would they make the same mistake twice?
- Forsaken are M6, d3+1 attacks, and have a random special rule granted every turn. One rolled in the battle was 'Always Strikes First'
- The Vorptex Beast's bound spell wasn't really explained, but it seems the 'every model in the unit takes a T test and a spawn is made' is not its only effect. This only triggered in the battle report from rolling a 6 for the effect, so i don't know if the spell gets stronger the higher you roll, or if there's literally up to 6 different effects.
- The Slaughterbeast using the Chaos Lords WS is real, and doesn't say 'unmodified' like the Tomb King's rule does. The Chaos Lord gains 2 +1WS buffs during the game, and the Slaughterbeast got it too
- The Slaughterbeast seems to have an upgrade called 'extra claws'. Assume it means more attacks, which I always like on Monsters
- Gorebeast Chariot is T6, W5, and as stated KB on Impact Hits, and 'loads of attacks'
- Hellriders / whatever they are called are unchanged from November's update like people assumed it would
- Chaos Lords have BS5 now for no apparent reason? Maybe Death's Head thing is still in, or Throwing Axes / Spears?
- Throgg is twice as tall as the current metal Chaos Trolls, and yet still on the same base
- Dragon Ogres kind of make the Shaggoth look tiny by comparison (which is disappointing because I love the Shaggoth model)
- Nothing new about spells or spell lores that haven't already been mentioned (including the options for Lore of Metal for Tzeentch, Death for Nurgle, Shadow for Slaanesh)

Knights 4 5 3 4 4 1 5 2 8
Fear,champion with EotG

Lord/Hero 4 8 3 5 5 3 7 5 9 / 4 7 3 5 4 2 6 4 8
Both with EotG only

Sorc. lord/hero 4 5 3 4 4 3 5 3 8 / 4 5 3 4 4 2 5 2 8

Skullcrushers 4 5 3 4 4 1 5 2 8
Juggernaut 7 5 0 5 4 3 2 3 7

+2AS from the jugg/jugg gets +1str on the charge/demonic attacks

I can say, I am kind of excited by this release.

For evertything that happened in the battle report, I have one thing to say:
They usually don't know the freaking rules themselves for existing armies, let alone new armies!

So everything that seems true now, maybe a mistake they made in the battle report.

Still:
That mount for lord would mean I can have a combat lord again.
especially when we can use some other sort of magical protection.

I have a High Elf Caledor/double dragon army. I also (obviously) have an Ogre army. Logical extension of those two means my next army should be Dragon Ogre themed...

Yeah, I'm pretty excited for this one. Should be rocking.

On the CotEC forum a guy posted the new stats for Skullcrushers

3 wounds
3 attacks str 5 (str 6 on the charge)
T4
deamonic attacks (magical probably?)

He posted a photo of the page also, but was too blurry to see

If this is true, Skullcrushers will be the new Mournfangs... With their pervious rules, they were already the top Monstrous Cav in the game... Giving them +1 W, +1 A and +1S on the charge is stupid. Even taking into account that you remove 1 T... Unless their point cost went up, this unit if gonna be the new FoTM and will destroy anything thrown in their way. Hopefully, they still have Frenzy and can be baited...

Those Skullcrushers sound like GW crossbred Mournfangs with (Savage) Orc Boars to make the ultimate monstrous cavalry unit of choice, as said above. But where Mournfangs and Demi-Gryffs have their own areas of expertise, I 'm fine with their Chaos equivalent being an all-rounder - with one big (or rather BIG) caveat:
I hope this will be reflected in the unit's pricing.

Last,  T4 W3 currently vs T5 W2 previously is a fair trade-off in my book. Still think that Tyrants or at least Bruisers (and Empire Grandmasters) should have the option to ride a Mournfang (or Demi-Chicken in the Empire's case) to battle.

Had a play around with the 360 degree pics over GW's site, some stunning minis yet again! They never cease to amaze me with what they can do in plastic these days.

I saw then in my pad when I got the WD friday evening - and yes most of the models are stunning.

Never thought I would say this but the Dragon Ogres are some of the coolest models released so far.

Will get some for the bitz alone for my Ogre Kingdoms.

Throgg - I like
Forsaken - Have old school charm
Massive Beasties - Piss me off
But the thing I am most annoyed at is that I just finished converting/painting 4 chaos mornfangs ( all I will ever need) and those dragon ogres would have fit my army perfectly

Also I am ready to start a new army ( 2 years since I started my last new army) and I really wanted them to re-vamp wood elves or Brets.
also

Still not that into this Throgg. Not as cool as the image in the last book. Or this one that Warpy made:
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=8675.msg164816#msg164816

Looked at the stuff on GW's site over the weekend and almost choked on my cocoa! I knew the books would hit £30 because the 40k ones cost that, but £30 for 10 plastic Forsaken....damn and the new big kits are £50?!?!!? Expect the annual price rise to kick in and all the £25 plastic special sets will hit £30 and the other larger kits will all rise £14-15 to round them out to £50. This really is getting beyond a joke.

What are peoples thoughts on Dragon Ogres as Rhinox cav?  I've got Mournfang already but want a way to shoehorn the models into my list!!!


And they are big and beefy as hell so I reckon that could work....

Sounds a great idea. If you've got the old book, you might remember Ghuth Spawnchomper who used to enlist DOgres in his tribe.

What are peoples thoughts on Dragon Ogres as Rhinox cav?  I've got Mournfang already but want a way to shoehorn the models into my list!!!


And they are big and beefy as hell so I reckon that could work....

I'm loving that idea.
Anyone know if they come on the same base size as mournfangs?

Demigryph/Giant base so smaller.

Giants are on a 50x100 base, but demigryphs are on a 50x75 base.  No clue about rhinox riders.

Rhinox are on 50x100mm bases (chariot), Dragon Ogres on 50x75.  Upping the base size won't make much difference to the look of them though so that's cool.

And GW sell single Chariot bases so can grab some from there.

Giants are on a 50x100 base

No they aren't.

Just measured my giants base it is slightly shorter than 2x Ogres (40mm x2) so am assuming that it's a 50x75mm base.

Yeah, thats the one.

While the Drogres don't have the proper base to be counts as Mournfang you can buy the chariot bases from GW seperatly easily enough.

I wonder will they be the next best Monstrous Cavalry since sliced bread?
I feel Drogres should be revammped entirely, because needing a shaggoth for a small rule is pointless.
Still though, 1+ AS or not, they'l cost a ton

I wonder will they be the next best Monstrous Cavalry since sliced bread?

I have a feeling that title may well go to Skullcrushers if it turns out they're getting these new benefits (extra wounds and attacks mainly) without an increase in cost - in my opinion they're already pretty much on par with MFs. The only real advantanges the MFs can boast are impact hits and the Dragonhide.

Of course, that's if you're not bringing Grimhorns into the equation...

Grimhorns might have a chance. T5, Str5 all around, can get 1+ armor and Parry, along with Stubborn.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Grimhorns steamroller them. 10 S5 base attacks per model makes Khorne himself look on with envy, whilst that armour save/toughness is so good you could probably easily justify GWs for a bit of S7 love.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?362385-WoC-in-Feb&p=6613862&viewfull=1#post6613862

A bunch of new WoC information.

All chariot army here I come 

And DPs are unbreakable now. That nice. Shame the MoT is the lame kind it is in 40k for them.

MoN is still lame, hopefully its costed appropriately.

Yeah true hehe

I like all the changes so far, especially with the Shrines and Chosen (both my armies have both).

Chaos Lords and Sorcs can now get a 2+ wardsave with the EoTG roll that re rolls 1s (from third eye of tzeentch, probably only for a sorcerer though).

Very interesting changes. GW Marauders got killed.. double points

Heh, my prediction was that Daemon Princes have been so long a no-brainer in 40K and a no-no in WFB that they'd get the nerf stick in 40K and become the new cheese in WFB...

Looks to me that is exactly what's happening. I guess we'll see when the points costs appear.

Heh, my prediction was that Daemon Princes have been so long a no-brainer in 40K and a no-no in WFB that they'd get the nerf stick in 40K and become the new cheese in WFB...

Looks to me that is exactly what's happening. I guess we'll see when the points costs appear.

According to the comments, they are now cheaper than before and are Monsters (Thunderstomp).

Well, they were monsters before. Actually, that's one thing that really hurt the daemon prince. If he was monstrous infantry, people might have taken him because he could then join units and benefit from look out sir rolls when joining trolls or fiends of slaanesh.

A buff to Ld9 is going to make the DP a lot more attractive as a general too.

Yeah a look out sir would be nice. But a fat ward save usually kept my opponents from attempting to blast it off the table. They usually hit other targets that dont discount their shot 2/3 times.

The armor though will help with ballistic shooting and in combat. I'm excited for him but I am not sure if I'll be taking one in my Twin Swords list or not...

MoN is still lame, hopefully its costed appropriately.

MoN was never lame.  Point of fact, it's the most effective mark to take against Ogres, or any other WS3 army.  I don't care how strong you are; if you're hitting on 5s, you've probably lost.  Heck, even if the warriors manage to fail their fear test somehow, MoN means they still hit on 4s!  And it helps make leadies virtually impotent.

MoN is still lame, hopefully its costed appropriately.

MoN was never lame.  Point of fact, it's the most effective mark to take against Ogres, or any other WS3 army.  I don't care how strong you are; if you're hitting on 5s, you've probably lost.  Heck, even if the warriors manage to fail their fear test somehow, MoN means they still hit on 4s!  And it helps make leadies virtually impotent.

This is incorrect. MoN only applies to being hit, not when the bearer is hitting something else. So failing a fear check, Chaos Warriors would be hitting Ogres on a 5+.

**That is for the current MoN rules. Who knows what the new book will do.

He meant ogres hitting on 4s

He meant ogres hitting on 4s

Well if thats the case (and he did not word it that way, he said that they still hit on 4s immediately after referencing the Chaos Warriors), then he's still wrong according to the old MoN.

They would hit the Chaos Warriors on a 3+ provided they failed a Fear check. Its -1 to WS not to hit. WS 2 Ogres vs WS 1 Chaos Warriors.

According to that list, it's returning to a straight -1 to hit.

According to that list, it's returning to a straight -1 to hit.

That would be so much better.. MoN now is pretty crappy. It is 10% better than MoT against Ballistic skill shooting only and it only helps against WS3 troops and thats only defending against them in combat. Very marginal when you can get a 6+ wardsave from MoT or +1A from MoK.

I may make a MoN army yet

Yeah, its better. But we shall have to see what the price of the mark is before making a final judgement. If they keep the same cost it will remain overpriced.

Having just read the book I can confirm the MoN is -1 to hit in combat only.

DP have been reduced massively in price, can now be lv4 wizards (although you pay for each level) and have some nice mutations. They can also take 10 gnoblars worth of magic items, which means you may be able to combine MoN with Glittering Scales for a -2 to hit in CC. Combine this with poison attacks, scaly skin, deamonic ward save and unbreakable and you have a monster that most characters and units can only hit on a six, and still has a 4+/5++ save.

Which fits my Nurgle themed army quite nicely and I can still get a lv4 mage.

Or if you want to go more defensive (as the above is vulnerable to shooting) go with scaly skin, chaos armour, dawn stone and MoT for a 2+ rerollable/4++.

I read the book and it doesn't seem that strong.  Yes things got cheaper but marauders have been nerfed.  No 3 up ward for the chosen star.  Puppet is gone as far as I can see.

I read the book and it doesn't seem that strong.  Yes things got cheaper but marauders have been nerfed.  No 3 up ward for the chosen star.  Puppet is gone as far as I can see.

They really got rid of Infernal Puppet? Wasn't expecting that... 

I read the book and it doesn't seem that strong.  Yes things got cheaper but marauders have been nerfed.  No 3 up ward for the chosen star.  Puppet is gone as far as I can see.

The book is quite strong without being cheese, imo.

Chosen can still easily get a 5+ ward at the beginning of the game. Also, Marauders HAD to go.. I've seen people packing 4 units of 50 each with great weapons and MoK.. All for under 1k points? Pure filth.

Anyway, the book is great and will be for the next 4-5 years.

+1 Armour Save Chaos Warriors? YES PLEASE!

Also, as each 8th book is being released some earlier stuff like Empire soldiery will get more understandably point worthy.

A good trend.

My observations:

Daemon Prince buff is nice, but still not good enough.  Almost everything you can do with a DP can be accomplished with another lord choice for less points and to better effect.  The Glitter Nurgle guy can just as easily be a Lord with better weapons on a Daemonic Steed for less points.  A Tzeench Disk Lord with the Crown and 3+ Ward setup makes the DE guy look like a punk, in comparison, and may be the single most overpowered character build in the game, now.  Throgg is still the best hero choice in the entire game.

For troops, the Marauder nerf was too severe and ham fisted (like everything Cruddace does).  Great Weapon Khorne Marauders at 11 a guy are acceptable, even though they lose to equal points of Sea Guard or similar units.  Whats not acceptable is LArm + Shld unmarked guys costing more than Empire Swordsmen despite being essentially the exact same (Swordsmen have less Initiative, but a narrower base) in every way.  The powerful marauders are priced correctly, but the thinly geared ones are way overpriced.

Chariots as core is interesting, as 120 for a Khorne marked chariot is a retardedly good deal.  Dogs got a nice little boost, and Warriors got a good price adjustment, but they have the opposite issue of Marauders.  Which is to say, HWShld Warriors are spot on for cost, but marked GW guys are just stupidly overcosted, especially in light of things like the Banner of Rage and Ecstacy being yanked.  Forsaken are just too random to be considered a strong competitive option.  Competitive Warriors lists are now either going to spam warriors or trolls/chariots in core, in my view.

Specials are a mixed bag.  The Chimera is obviously strong, but four wounds for what is always going to be at least a 245 point model is vulnerable to gunline armies.  Trolls with AHW are stupifyingly good for the points, despite the loss of magical puke and mutant regen.  Dragon Ogres are solid, but no Musician makes manuevering difficult.  Chaos Ogres are better than our Ogres, even before marks are taken into account.  The Gorebeast Chariot is like the Pumbagore Chariot, only better for less points.  On the other end, Chosen, Shrines, and Hellstriders are pretty much useless, thanks to redundant options in the core section.  Knights may never be seen again, thanks to the Chimera being better for less points and Skullcrushers being a better version of the same thing in rare.

Rares are all over the place.  Hellcannon got a huge buff.  Shaggoths got even cheaper.  Skull Crushers are still strong if you can find a way to avoid being chaffed out of the game with them.  Spawn are actually good chaffe now, in an infantry based list, especially the Tzeench Breath weapon versions.  On the flipside, the two new rare monsters are total garbage with no practical use.  The giant is still largely pointless, moreso now with the Slaanesh version being laughably nerfed to plus one Ini.  Biggest problem I see here is that the Hellcannon is just so good that its hard to pass up.  As good as Skullcrushers are, they don't really add anything the army cannot get elsehwere, and its the same with the Shaggoth.  But the Hellcannon gives you a ranged threat in an army completely devoid of them.

The magic lores and items got gutted, except for Nurgle.  Based on some of the spell names I think the new Daemon book will share these.  I am interested to see how gifts that are also magic items are ruled when taken by a BSB with a magical banner and how the turn into a DP mechanic gets handled in FAQs.

The biggest problem I have with the book is that it has the usual Cruddace "here are a ton of redundant units but only some of them are good" issue.  Also, Mark of Nurgle is just stupidly powerful and at 10 points per character, there is literally no reason not to take it on a character, outside of the Tzeench cock blocker I described above. Even the Nurgle magic lore is amazingly good, with the only clunker being the default spell.  No love for Slaanesh, once again, of course....

My overall rating of the book puts it equal to the Ogre book in power, but with a lot more useless units clogging up the book and actually a lot more bland.  So B- from me, which is high praise from me to any book with Cruddace's name attached to it.

My observations:

Daemon Prince buff is nice, but still not good enough.  Almost everything you can do with a DP can be accomplished with another lord choice for less points and to better effect.  The Glitter Nurgle guy can just as easily be a Lord with better weapons on a Daemonic Steed for less points.  A Tzeench Disk Lord with the Crown and 3+ Ward setup makes the DE guy look like a punk, in comparison, and may be the single most overpowered character build in the game, now.  Throgg is still the best hero choice in the entire game.

Yeah, but you can take only one really powerful character and it IS warriors of chaos (where powerful characters belong)

For troops, the Marauder nerf was too severe and ham fisted (like everything Cruddace does).  Great Weapon Khorne Marauders at 11 a guy are acceptable, even though they lose to equal points of Sea Guard or similar units.  Whats not acceptable is LArm + Shld unmarked guys costing more than Empire Swordsmen despite being essentially the exact same (Swordsmen have less Initiative, but a narrower base) in every way.  The powerful marauders are priced correctly, but the thinly geared ones are way overpriced.

Yep, they are going to be a rare sight, well maybe when core choices is comped at max 3 per choice

Chariots as core is interesting, as 120 for a Khorne marked chariot is a retardedly good deal.  Dogs got a nice little boost, and Warriors got a good price adjustment, but they have the opposite issue of Marauders.  Which is to say, HWShld Warriors are spot on for cost, but marked GW guys are just stupidly overcosted, especially in light of things like the Banner of Rage and Ecstacy being yanked.  Forsaken are just too random to be considered a strong competitive option.  Competitive Warriors lists are now either going to spam warriors or trolls/chariots in core, in my view.

There are some issues, that will come to mind, when the army leaves the listbuilding and is put on the table, but yes, the chariot core spam will be seen alot (if people have the money to buy all those chariots 

Specials are a mixed bag.  The Chimera is obviously strong, but four wounds for what is always going to be at least a 245 point model is vulnerable to gunline armies.  Trolls with AHW are stupifyingly good for the points, despite the loss of magical puke and mutant regen.  Dragon Ogres are solid, but no Musician makes manuevering difficult.  Chaos Ogres are better than our Ogres, even before marks are taken into account.  The Gorebeast Chariot is like the Pumbagore Chariot, only better for less points.  On the other end, Chosen, Shrines, and Hellstriders are pretty much useless, thanks to redundant options in the core section.  Knights may never be seen again, thanks to the Chimera being better for less points and Skullcrushers being a better version of the same thing in rare.

About the knights: the chimera will cost you about 750-800 points, so 400 points for knights is doable.
Again especially when tournaments want to limit the same rare choices and even further when you can have only 2 of the same special choices.

The gore chariot is in my book comparing to the normal chariot and you already have alot of them.
You just can't do a battle of only impact hits

Rares are all over the place.  Hellcannon got a huge buff.  Shaggoths got even cheaper.  Skull Crushers are still strong if you can find a way to avoid being chaffed out of the game with them.  Spawn are actually good chaffe now, in an infantry based list, especially the Tzeench Breath weapon versions.  On the flipside, the two new rare monsters are total garbage with no practical use.  The giant is still largely pointless, moreso now with the Slaanesh version being laughably nerfed to plus one Ini.  Biggest problem I see here is that the Hellcannon is just so good that its hard to pass up.  As good as Skullcrushers are, they don't really add anything the army cannot get elsehwere, and its the same with the Shaggoth.  But the Hellcannon gives you a ranged threat in an army completely devoid of them.

I think a good assessment here

The magic lores and items got gutted, except for Nurgle.  Based on some of the spell names I think the new Daemon book will share these.  I am interested to see how gifts that are also magic items are ruled when taken by a BSB with a magical banner and how the turn into a DP mechanic gets handled in FAQs.

The biggest problem I have with the book is that it has the usual Cruddace "here are a ton of redundant units but only some of them are good" issue.  Also, Mark of Nurgle is just stupidly powerful and at 10 points per character, there is literally no reason not to take it on a character, outside of the Tzeench cock blocker I described above. Even the Nurgle magic lore is amazingly good, with the only clunker being the default spell.  No love for Slaanesh, once again, of course....

My overall rating of the book puts it equal to the Ogre book in power, but with a lot more useless units clogging up the book and actually a lot more bland.  So B- from me, which is high praise from me to any book with Cruddace's name attached to it.

I took your post as it has the most text in it (and actually I like it when people have thoughts and care to explain them, or share them with us)

The chimera has one liability extra nobody mentions: Ld5
So it has to stay close to the general.

I am not sure where you are getting all of these limitations from, unless you are talking about ETC which is a whole other game.  If we are talking about Warhammer, as opposed to ETCHammer, then most people can take three chimies and they run less per dude than a naked five pack of knights.  I don't think anyone thinks knights are better than chimerae.  And I think its LD is 7, but I admittedly do not have the book in front of me at the moment.  Still not especially good, but its not frenzied and it flies so its going to be really hard to put it in a position where it might lose a fight in the first place, but it is vulnerable to panic, so you can make it run by forcing panic tests.  So far in playtesting, I have yet to see this model lose combat to anything, but its been shot up a bunch.

And for battle on impact hits, speaking as someone who owns almost two dozen chariots of various types, it can be done if you attack in waves or one massed rush.  Its a lot more feasable on the khorne markes chariots, thanks to the frenzy attacks.  Many GTs involve some sort of scenario with banners and they are actually somewhat slow moving, so you go into a tourney knowing you will lose one game due to matchup or scenario, but it is a fun army to play.... until you come up against the guy with two cannons and a wall of greatweapons.

As for the killy characters, you can indead cram two of them into the same list, provided one is a hero and willing to live without the crown.  Here is what my friend is running in test games for his character setups:
Nurgle Lord on Daemonic Steed w Soulsteal Gift, Breath Weapon, Scaley Skin, Halberd, Dawnstone (or 5+ Ward), Glittering Scales, Other Tricksters Shard
Tzeench Hero on Disc w Tali of Preservation, Reroll 1 ward saves, BSB, Warrior Bane (this guy is amazingly cheap)
Then he either takes Throgg and lives without any magic, or tosses in a bare bones wizard/wizard lord

He hides the Nurgle guy behind trolls to avoid cannons and rams the Tzeench guy right at the enemy guns.  Both characters are beatsticks and the Disc dude is basically an invincible war machine hunter.  Flubbed panic tests are their only real weak point.

Come on! Quit the ETC bashing.
We know how you feel about it.
It's getting old.

I wasn't talking about ETC actually, In Holland there are some tournaments who still use a 7th style comp.
Those would use a max of 2 specials.

It IS ledaership 5. that one is burned onto my eyes.

Chaos Lords and Sorcs can now get a 2+ wardsave with the EoTG roll that re rolls 1s (from third eye of tzeentch, probably only for a sorcerer though).

In every instance of a ward save being increased, it mentions that it caps at 3+.  Of course, 3+ ward save is still friggin amazing.

DP have been reduced massively in price, can now be lv4 wizards (although you pay for each level) and have some nice mutations. They can also take 10 gnoblars worth of magic items, which means you may be able to combine MoN with Glittering Scales for a -2 to hit in CC. Combine this with poison attacks, scaly skin, deamonic ward save and unbreakable and you have a monster that most characters and units can only hit on a six, and still has a 4+/5++ save.
Which fits my Nurgle themed army quite nicely and I can still get a lv4 mage.

May I recommend Wings, Chaos Armor, Charmed Shield, Scaly Skin, and Mark of Nurgle?  1+ save, ignore the first wound on a 2+, and anything WS4 and lower still only hits you on a 6.

I love the fact that the Tzeentch Lore got nerfed.  Of course, Nurgle and Slannesh range from vicious to terrifying, especially when combined with some of the book lores and/or eachother.  Death and Slannesh work particularly well together.

You just can't do a battle of only impact hits

By my reading, the Mark of Khorn applies to the entire chariot, so a core chariot gets 6 S5 attacks, and 4 S4 attacks, while a Gorebeast chariot gets a whopping 10 S5 attacks.  Given that you're almost assured to win the first round of combat, those things can really dish it out.

Well, for practical purposes a 3+ ward rerolling 1s is almost the same as a 2+. Its a 77.7% chance of success vs an 83% chance. Pretty darn close.

Ah, I missed the mention of the reroll 1s ability

Come on! Quit the ETC bashing.
We know how you feel about it.
It's getting old.

I wasn't talking about ETC actually, In Holland there are some tournaments who still use a 7th style comp.
Those would use a max of 2 specials.

It IS ledaership 5. that one is burned onto my eyes.

I did not specifically bash ETC, I simply said in normal games you get three.  Also, if they are using regular 7th edition slot rules, then you still get to have three in games larger than 2k (3 specials, 2 rares).  Either way, three of them are going to be legal in uncomped formats and they are damn hard to pin down into a losing position.  They are indead LD5, so there are options there for LD bombing them or forcing panic tests, but I think nearly all Monster Mash armies are going to be packing either Throgg or a large target general for the extended LD bubble.  Their statline combined with regeneration makes Lore of Death or even screaming kind of dicey against them, too.  Lore of Metal rocks their world, however.

I wasn't specifically talking about this thread 

We were even more restricted in 7th: no more then double the same special choice.

The more I like at chimera's the less I am actually impressed by them.
When they are uncomped, other things are also (double ironblaster, all warmachines in a couple of armies) and then 70 points per wound is alot
Though I still think that three is the best way to go and one is more of a give away then anything else

With Regen, these things are amazingly resilient against double cannon builds, especially when the unkillable disk rider guy and a pack of chariots are chassing right behind them.

I wish they had of made dragon ogres worth taking. I love the models and have always loved the fluff for them but as they stand, I just cant see the point.
Ogres and trolls seem to do the job for alot less points.
2 trolls for 1  Droger with GW. I'll take the trolls.
1 ogre with MoN and GW is 15 points less!

Its a shame.

With Regen, these things are amazingly resilient against double cannon builds, especially when the unkillable disk rider guy and a pack of chariots are chassing right behind them.

The thing I didn't notice straight away is they only have 4 wounds and T5. For something that's clocking in at 245 base (the regen is mandatory at 15 points!) but closer to 300 with the flame breath and poison that are really worth it that's a lot hanging on just 4 wounds.

I don't think it's terrible but I don't think it's a particularly amazing buy either.

The best way to run them is probably dirt cheap with just Regen and have 3 of them.

"Dirt cheap" runs you nearly 750 points.

30 points to add a S4 breath weapon to a flying monster seems too good to pass up to me.

If you have the points, sure.  But 245 for a flying hydra is a solid deal and with three in play, its very hard to keep them from dictating the combats.  And if I may put some math hammer in the table here, your garden variety cannon needs 3-4 direct cannon hits, on average dice, to kill one of them.  Assuming you have four cannons (or get lucky with two), the other two and their Tzeench leader get to faceroll their way to victory from two onward.

As for the Dragon Ogres, you are paying for the fourth wound and swiftstride.   Unfortunately, the lack of musicians makes manuevering them around chaffe extremely challenging and its not worth dumping a chimera to make room for a workable unit of them, anyhow.  If they had access to command models, I might actually consider dropping a Chimie to work one unit in.  As it stands, Trolls are a better deal for massed S5 and Chaos Ogres bring more options to the table.  I could see taking a small unit with GW as a can opener unit, but said unit would be very prone to whiffage.

I still need to be sold on the chimera.  I2 is the reason. Any good unit is going to kill it first turn of combat, before it gets the breath. Please sell them to me because I might be missing something?

MoT Spawn is the new must have If you ask me!  I'd have 4 of these bad boys. Redirectors/chaff/and the bane of T3 horde armies. SO GOOD!

Chimeras are fantastic for what they do.

Of course if you charge it by itself into a unit its going to have trouble. Its not a Dragon (and even those still have trouble).

Its meant for support. Position it in the flank of a unit of swordmasters and flame them down. Warmachine hunt, bunkered mage hunt, flank or rear charge to support your troops, theres all kinds of stuff that this monster can do.

If it did not have a 4+ regen it would be garbage. But as it is, its a terrifc support unit.

The Breath would be best used in the shooting phase. More hits get generated that way.

Hopping next to a unit and flaming that big block of troops seems to be a good use for one.

Yes, they're relatively resistant to cannons thanks to regen, but they give up a whole heap of VPs if they die.

They're going to be a nuisance but Ld 5 (important for marching!), only 4W and a respectable price tag is going to keep them in line I think. Definitely a good cannon shield for daemon princes, not a bad "reponse" unit and that flame attack could total a unit of swordmasters or similarly expensive elite troops you don't want to let get into combat.

Anyone given any thought to what Lore of Metal can do for the Chaos boys?  I don't really fancy fighting 1+ armored core troops

On the Lore Of Metal: I find that, this lore is really only good AGAINST Chaos Warriors. The main spells do damage to high armoured targets, which was always Chaos. For Chaos playing Metal, I think it only comes in handy on cavalry, which is something they can take down quite easily.
On the Chimera: These guys can pack a punch once upgraded, but I don't feel safe with 4 wounds and +4. He can be popped first go, or he could be butchered by a flurry of attacks from a unit. HOWEVER, when a Chimera has it's upgrades, it is the perfect flanker. It blocks up charges, it has a flame template, it takes a while to die (or might not) and he is perfect for taking a chunk of models off the table. He's like the salamander of the Lizzards, only 4 times more.

There's a few spells in Metal worthwhile for chaos, especially since Tzeentch sorcerers on discs are as good if not better than ever but the Tzeentch lore is a bit meh.

Glittering Robe is a good buff for chaos warriors, pushing them up to a 2+ or 1+ armour.

Enchanted Blades gives warriors +1 to hit (which is good for them, since they're strong but no re-rolls to hit.)

Transmutation is situational and rather expensive, but good against WS3 troops.

Final transmutation isn't a bad spell for the casting value.

Its not that Lore of Metal is fantastic, Its that its not the Lore of Tzeentch.

But A+ for 1+ armour save warriors with +1 to hit!

You guys are missing the point on the Chimies.  Put them into the flank of nearly anything out there, especially with Tzeench Pony cockblocker lord holding the front, and they will just wreck stuff.  Their ability to fly, coupled with the rock hard guys comming in from the front to your battle lines, pretty much mean they get to pick their fights.  Not sure what troop units are chopping them down easily, either, since they have 4+/4++r saves.  These guys take down ten infantry models a turn, all things being equal, and I am not sure there are many infantry units out there that can whack one (let alone the swarm of them comming in) before getting ground out.  White Lions are about the only one I see having a descent chance, along with certain Maneater setups.

Understood. I think they're going to be a real glass cannon and people are going to have to weigh up. Regen or not, 4 T5 wounds isn't going to hold up to much. Nasty, sure, they have a really impressive damage output. And a flying flaming breath is always something to worry about. But clocking in at 275 points, that's a hefty number of points to lose to a boosted fireball or similar.

Understood. I think they're going to be a real glass cannon and people are going to have to weigh up. Regen or not, 4 T5 wounds isn't going to hold up to much. Nasty, sure, they have a really impressive damage output. And a flying flaming breath is always something to worry about. But clocking in at 275 points, that's a hefty number of points to lose to a boosted fireball or similar.

Agreed. They look great on paper but I cant help but see them as big 230+point bullseye.
Even if my head said yes, I dont think my hands would let me put them in to a list because they would be to busy putting in 2 gore chariots or 4 MoT spawn.

I would either fly a couple into the same enemy unit at the same time to support each other, or use them to flank an enemy unit while I engage them with a block of warriors.

Or sandwich a unit between 2 chimeras in their flanks. The enemy can't turn to face either of them and only gets 5-6 guys to attack them at best.

Also Spawn are not 2:1 anymore, so two spawn are all you are allowed.   Honestly, I have no clue why they are not either special or Core Doesn't Count as Core, because they do not merrit a rare slot.

Spawn are rare?????
Surely they should be made Special because of the loss of the 2 Spawn, 1 Slot rule.
How are spawn in 8th? Another redundant unit in a Crudace book or just a trick pony?

Am i missing something? surley you can have as many spawn as you want to 25% of you list? I didnt think slots mattered anymore?

You can have 2 or 4 in rare depending on if you play below 3K or not.

Slots still exist.

To be clear, it's not "slots" in the old sense - there is no number of maximum rare choices overall, per se; but the restriction is on duplicate units. You cannot have more that 2 duplicate rare choices, or 3 duplicate special choices under 3k points (double those over 3k). So while there is no set number imposed on "rare choices", this effectively imposes a limit, as you can only ever have a limited number of each rare choice.

You can therefore only have 2 spawn under 3k with the new book.

The ideal example for us ogre folks would be running two ironblasters and a stonehorn/thundertusk.  Three rare choices, but only 2 duplicates.