How to Horde (2012)

Disclaimer:  I am not some sort of gaming god.  I am a guy who plays occasionally and does pretty darned well in the local scene, but I'm clinically opposed to driving more than about an hour to get a tournament in, and I for damned sure am not going to spend the night in a hotel to play.

Disclaimer the Second:  You will likely disagree with parts of this.  That's okay--hence why it's on a discussion forum.  Feel free to disagree, even vehemently.  F2C, I'm looking at you here. 

Disclaimer the Third:  Wall of text incoming!  Not for the short of attention span!

Okay, that said, let's get on to the meat.

An Ogre horde-based army is a scary prospect for a lot of players to face.  There is very, very little that can deal with a properly-supported horde, and frankly, it can be a lot of fun to play as well.  However, if you're trying to build a list like this, there's some things you have to keep in mind.  We'll be discussing them here.

Why go Horde?
To begin with, it's fun to have a huge unit that scares your opponent to see on the table.  It can go through your opponent's entire army without breaking a sweat.  Additionally, you have the element of points denial on your side.  An Ogre horde tends to be very, very expensive and has a lot of wounds to have to get through before it gives up any VPs.

Hordes also allow for efficiency of buffs and similar effects.  Casting Trollguts on a unit of 6 Ironguts is nice.  Casting it on a unit of 18 is just plain mean.  Also, items like the Ironcurse Icon or Rune Maw provide a more noticeable benefit to larger units.

Background-wise, it "makes sense" for Ogres to fight in a large, unruly mob, far more than having smaller groups working in tandem.  YMMV, obviously.

Why not to go Horde
Here's the big one:  redirectors can take most of your army out of the game.  You have to be very, very careful how you deal with these things, as they become a far bigger threat when you have more models and points invested in a single all-crushing horde.

Also, you may just like the MMU playstyle more.  Different things work better for different people.  Nothing wrong with that.

Building the Horde
You're going to need to choose between Ogres, Ironguts, or Maneaters.  Each of these have their own advantages, but I'm going to go ahead and recommend Ironguts.  My reasoning is thus:  Ironguts use up required Core percentages and are able to deal with just about anything that comes across their way, plus they can get a magic banner.

Bulls can work, but I find that S4 just doesn't have the same punch, and you'll likely be striking last anyway.  If you are in a very great weapon-heavy environment, though, they can really shine.  However, they are going to need some serious buffing to do the heavy lifting in your list.

Maneaters are just too expensive for me to recommend at all.  They are completely disgusting, but if you are using them properly, they'll have Scout or Vanguard and as such cannot really be supported by characters.

Support
This is the most important thing with hording up, in my opinion.  Your support units are the bread and butter of your army, and they have got to be able to shine.

Three Sabertusks are pretty much mandatory, as is a BSB with the Rune Maw.  The ability to deny a massive amount of enemy spells is too nice to give up, and likewise 'tusks are 'tusks.  Always take them.

As with all Ogre lists, unless you cannot take them, take two Ironblasters.  I guess they're mandatory too.  Sorry, this is sort of a rough draft.  You know them, you love them.  They're just plain great.

A Slaughtermaster is pretty much required in all Ogre lists.  Man, I'm really adding a lot of things to the mandatory list, but there's never a reason not to take an SM.  Use him to buff your troops, take on scary things, and pretty much always stick around.  Outside of that, I would recommend taking an additional caster or two and I really do have to give a bit of a nod to the Firebelly.  Fireball is great for dealing with redirectors and the flaming attacks can strip Regeneration off a unit before your horde tears into it.  A Beasts Butcher is always a good idea for giving your unit an additional point of S and T--even nastier if you go against my suggestion and take Maneaters.

Support 2:  Electric Boogaloo
When looking at supporting units, though, things get interesting.  You already have redirectors, artillery, and a big beefy unit.  Now what you need are units to support your horde directly.  These units need to be strong enough to take on opposing units directly while being resilient enough to not be easy VPs for your opponent.  As such, my recommendations are as follows:

Mournfang Cavalry:  Goodness, I love these things.  Able to take on enemy infantry head-on (well, most infantry) and difficult to get rid of.  Plus, I really love the models, and that always helps.  Give them Ironfists and a Dragonhide banner and there's very little these guys are going to fear.

Maneaters:  The Swiss Army Knife unit.  Properly geared up, they can snipe away annoying characters and still deal with pretty much anything that comes their way.  Vanguard and Stubborn makes for a somewhat interesting combination as well.

Leadbelchers:  Good for clearing off redirectors, but they become easy VPs a little too often for my taste.

Magic Items
With this sort of list, your magic items should be supporting your army rather than overpowering your characters.  My personal recommendations would be the following:

Rune Maw:  Mandatory.  Uber-spells are just that scary and you need to be able to ignore them as much as possible.

Dispel Scroll:  Goes without saying, really.

Hellheart:  Should be pretty obvious as well.

Ironcurse Icon:  Another really useful item for adding some protection to the horde and it's dirt cheap.

Standard of Discipline:  Your general is likely going to be Ld 8.  Making him Ld 9 is well worth 15 points.

Crown of Command:  Very useful, but I'm not going to call it mandatory.  Spinemarrow can duplicate the effect if you get in a bind, and you'll be taking at least one Maw caster.

Dragonhide:  Again, not as much mandatory as very, very good, particularly with the afore-mentioned Mournfang Cavalry.

Strategery
As mentioned before, the biggest threat to this sort of list is chaff/redirectors, so focus on them as much as possible.  Cast those fireballs or Bonecrunchers or whatever as often as you can and try to get rid of as much as you can.  If nothing else, an Ogre character can charge out from the horde to get a second chaff unit if positioned carefully.

Aside from that, your strategy is going to largely depend on your opponent.  The big goal, of course, is to use the horde to break your opponent's backbone and then suck their sweet, sweet spinal fluid.  If you're playing against a completely non-shooting army (some WoC/Beastmen, etc.), you can always hang back and let your Ironblasters do their job, then charge when your opponent has weathered a storm of cannonballs. 

You will take casualties inevitably.  The biggest and toughest thing you'll have to learn with this sort of list is when to reform into a mini-bus to preserve points and present three tough characters to your opponent.  It takes a bit of practice, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

So, with that said, happy crunching.  If you think I missed anything, please, let me know!

You pretty much summed up my prefered playstyle perfectly. Good advice imho, +1 gnoblar.

I dig it. I'll hand you a Gnoblar as soon as the forum allows me.

However, I think that we need to get our heads together and start thinking about that Maneater Horde. Striking at initiative order and getting free Stubborn and ItP as part of the deal can make for an incredibly reliable Horde that presents even fewer weaknesses than our average Horde. Of course, it does have some mitigating factors to it, namely that you have to figure out what the heck you're doing with your Core, and that Mournfangs are probably off the table. Still, I think there's potential to be had there, gents.

I dig it. I'll hand you a Gnoblar as soon as the forum allows me.

However, I think that we need to get our heads together and start thinking about that Maneater Horde. Striking at initiative order and getting free Stubborn and ItP as part of the deal can make for an incredibly reliable Horde that presents even fewer weaknesses than our average Horde. Of course, it does have some mitigating factors to it, namely that you have to figure out what the heck you're doing with your Core, and that Mournfangs are probably off the table. Still, I think there's potential to be had there, gents.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE PROBLEM WITH A MANEATER HORDE!  I'd love to do it, but geez, how the heck do you support it?

I mean, logically, you could have a front rank or two-pistol-shooting banderos and two ranks of great-weapon-slinging goons, but geez, the sheer cost involved scares me, and you're then looking at a unit that takes up even more points than the largely-equal Irongut horde.

I mean, 16 naked Maneaters costs 800 points.  Throw in the obligatory Level 4 Slaughtermaster and BSB and you're looking at (at minimum) 1275 points.  Add in two Ironblasters, 3 Sabertusks, and 625 points of Core and you're just over 2500 points and you don't really have much to show for it.  I just can't think of a way to make the Maneater horde work under 3k points, at which point you really should be taking 6 Sabertusks and 3 Ironblasters, so then we're looking at 3500 points, and so on...

I think the starting point has to be fielding them with just heavy armor, and maybe some AHW's for the front rank. Just maybe.

As far as how do you support it? I'm thinking about the Core units. You can make a couple of decent-sized units of Ironguts and regular Ogres to help out, or (dare I say it) you can go for broke and just double Horde that bad boy. Before you think I'm nuts, hear me out. I think you can squeeze in a unit of 17 Bulls with some command along with a Bruiser, provided you forgo the usual Firebelly, and then you have 2 monstrous threats. The question is, can we fit all the chaff we need?

I tried a 15 strong ME horde form with my characters in it, but it didn't do so well. In order to put plenty of points into the horde and my army I went light on Characters and upgrades(and therefore Magic) so I ended up with IGs as my core. If anything is gonna do well with minimal magical support it's them. Played 2 games with it, lost both games. I didn't lose by a huge amount it seemed close the whole game, but I felt so... outnumbered I guess.

Thinking of trying it out again with Moderate/lots of magic next time around. I do gotta note that I did NOT play with "Obligatory" choices such as Double IB and so forth. I think people need to start experimenting around more. Just my two cents...  :/

Thinking of trying it out again with Moderate/lots of magic next time around. I do gotta note that I did NOT play with "Obligatory" choices such as Double IB and so forth. I think people need to start experimenting around more. Just my two cents...  :/

There's a reason certain things are considered "mandatory."  In the case of the Ironblaster, it's because it gives us an option against things that otherwise would completely wreck an Ogre army, like just about any stupid flying monster. 

A Maneater horde would make for a very interesting army build, but to add characters you are either sacrificing their "Been there, done that" rules on Stubborn and Poison or trying to support them with Ironguts.  The problem with Ironguts is while they are great Core when supported, they have all kinds of weaknesses on their own, and going ME-heavy forces you to lose out on a lot of the decent support.

I actually think if you go ME Horde, you should consider Bulls your go-to Core unit. It really makes those bubble buffs from the Slaughtermaster devastating. 2 Hordes getting Trollguts at the same time?

I understand "why" they are considered mandatory, explaining that is pointless, my point is, and I honestly believe this, we need to try to find other solutions for the same problems. Finding a good "irregular"(not mandatory choices) list that covers the same weakness can be just as effective as the standard ones.

I'll give you an example I witnessed a while back, and for good measure it actually involves Ogres(although the previous book). When the 'Ardboyz came around after 8th came out, a Ogre player who used to play at my LGC took 1st place with a Ogre List. It involved just using a big block of Bulls, assisted by SLs, some Gnobs, and a few characters, the exact list I don't know but I digress. The only reason he won was no one knew what the hell to do against it, it was "new" and unusual. I mean his tactics were sound, and he played well, not taking anything from him.

Some time afterwards the same list would lose to the same people that he bashed aside, most notably the Chaos Warrior player who didn't even change his list after seeing what it could do.

My point is that sooner or later your local Gaming friends are going to find a way to beat these things, and while most people would look at that as a "I'll cross that bridge when I get there", I personally believe there is no harm in looking for a new road to begin with.

Anywho!, I'm done with that. This might possibly sound apathetic, or downright douchey,  but It doesn't matter "Wot you guieses does!" as it doesn't directly affect me, but don't take that the wrong way.

Feast On

That really depends on whether they've spent time thinking about the matchup that Ogres present. The element of surprise dries out quick in a regular gaming group, so you tend to stick to what performs the best no matter what is thrown at you. The reason the best choices are considered the best is because they can do stuff even when the enemy sees them coming.

The reason the best choices are considered the best is because they can do stuff even when the enemy sees them coming.

Once again I understand that, But I still am a believer in "alternative medicine" Not just in OK but any of my armies.

To my discredit, I probably lose way more than the conformist.
To my credit I win way more often that I would think, and the wins are far more enjoyable, least from my own standpoint.

On a side note is it odd that your avatar makes me want a steak...

Any time is a good time for steak, as far as I'm concerned.

It depends on what your goal is. It's all about the W's for me - I hate to lose, so I'm going to field the best list I possibly can. I study the matchup, make notes and mock up other armies, and constantly re-examine my own list in an effort to make it better. I compare notes with other folks to see what I can do to improve and get some fresh sets of eyeballs on the army. I'm never going to lose the war of preparation, not if I have anything to say in the matter.

i sooo need to visit Philly and kick your butt with MSU ogres   <looks for passport...>

Great and useful post Gralph, you have a gnoblar from me. You presented the advantages of the strategy, and also its drawbacks and counters. Good job.

I am a huge ogre horde fan, if only because it is so points efficient and for the point denial. I put my horde in a lot of lists and I follow a bunch of the advice posted above. Here are my lists:

1) I just call this my horde list.

Slaughtermaster- Grut's Sickle, Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Lvl. 4, Ironfist, Lore of the Great Maw (378 pts.)

Butcher- Hellheart, Ironfist, Lore of Beasts (188 pts.)

Bruiser- Bsb, Rune Maw, Heavy Armor, Ironfist

Ogres x5- Ironfists, Standard Bearer, Look-Out Gnoblar, Crusher, Bellower (195 pts.)

Ogres x18- Ironfists, Standard Bearer, Crusher, Bellower (606 pts.)

Leadbelchers x5- Bellower (225 pts.)

Leadbelchers x5- Bellower (225 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Total: 2,397 pts.

I just like how this list is able to fit in so much stuff like a decent shooting display at 2400 pts. because it uses an ogre horde and not an Irongut horde. I'm not so sure what to do with the small unit of ogres, though. I'm thinking of scrapping it and adding a horde of gnoblars with a single butcher hiding behind them possibly in a small unit of ogres or something. I especially love how, because ogres have 3 wounds each at 30 pts. each, it makes Grut's sickle, I think, very viable. I love how I can cast augment spells with 1 or 2 dice. The SM can get rid of redirectors with bonecrusher if needed, and the shooting I feel should take care of the rest.

2) This one was inspired by Sigmar's purple sun list, and I wanted to make a list with a tyrant in it.

Slaughtermaster- Lore of Death, Greedy Fist, Arabyan Carpet, Enchanted Shield, Lvl. 4 (380 pts.)

Tyrant- Heavy Armor, Sword of Bloodshed, Giantbreaker, The Other Trickster's Shard (315 pts.)

Butcher- Lvl. 2, Lore of the Great Maw, Ironfist, Grut's Sickle (188 pts.)

Bruiser- BSB, Rune Maw, Ironfist (198 pts.)

Ogres x18- Ironfists, Bellower, Crusher, Standard Bearer (606 pts.)

Ogres x9- Ironfists, Bellower, Crusher, Standard Bearer, Look-out Gnoblar (323 pts.)

Leadbelchers x6, Bellower (268 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Total: 3000 pts.

The idea of this list is to 1. Cast purple sun and 2. Aim 4 Ironblasters and some leadbelchers at a unit with -3 to leadership and make it take a panic test... Flee!!! The Tyrant can take care of any redirectors pretty easily

3) I call this my shooting list. It has a load of leadbelchers being supported by lore of heaven magic from a horde.

Slaughtermaster- Crown of Command, Grut's Sickle, Lore of Heaven, Warrior Bane

Butcher- Dispel Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Lvl. 2, Add. hand weapon

Bruiser- BSB, Heavy Armor, Ironfist, Rune Maw (198 pts.)

Ogres x18- Ironfists, Bellower, Standard Bearer, Crusher (606 pts.)

Leadbelchers x7- Bellower (311 pts.)

Leadbelchers x8- Bellower (354 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Sabretusk (21 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Ironblaster (170 pts.)

Total: 2396 pts.

15 D6 Shots+ Re-Rolling 1's= AWESOME 

Overall, I think the ogre horde serves me pretty well. Any thoughts on the lists?

Also- just to get it in- 18 ogres attacking==48 WS 3 S 4 attacks.

Also- just to get it in- 18 ogres attacking==54 WS 3 S 4 attacks.

Fixed for you.

not a big fan of Horde.

if you ever face WoC or DoC (or just about any player with a good knowledge of the game), you'll end up with killer units on all flank, and will lose models faster than you can count. and even with runemaw, you're far from protected from spells that will tear through your army like mindrazor, or that will make your unit deal little to no wound like flesh to stone.

When i see an ogre playing with a horde, i see it as an easy win, sorry. (obviously, unless you play very slowly, and i do not have time to kill your horde).

On the topic of the maneater horde, I have tried this once.  See here for the list --> http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=3811.msg306817#msg306817

The look on my opponents face with I vanguarded a stubborn horde of maneaters up to 12 inches away from him really was priceless.  I think I would certainly change the list in the future to include more magic/magic defense and switch the banner on the horde to the gleaming pennant.  But I think the real strength of a maneater horde is how badly it can wreck your opponent's battle plan ... after deployment.

- Snark

and even with runemaw, you're far from protected from spells that will tear through your army like mindrazor, or that will make your unit deal little to no wound like flesh to stone.

Why do you think a horde style ogre army would be any more vulnerable to an opponent using these augments than a MMU / MSU style ogre army?

Runemaw is not the only protection.  A horde army list should still include hellheart, a lvl 2 or greater caster, and a dispel scroll.  Runemaw is just an example of a good tool for MMU that becomes an amazing tool for Horde.

- Snark

Sorry, Snark! But 54 ogres attacking is kind of a sight to see. I was able to clear out a horde of dwarfs with a flank charge from some leadbelchers.

Sorry, Snark! But 18 ogres attacking is kind of a sight to see. I was able to clear out a horde of dwarfs with a flank charge from some leadbelchers.

Yes, hordes are impressive.  They are impressive when they kill.  Having seen a horde of 16x Ogres + SM + BSB evaporate from Infernal Gateway (opponent rolled an 11 for the strength, I rolled a 1 for Runemaw), I can tell you that they are impressive when they die as well.

- Snark

i sooo need to visit Philly and kick your butt with MSU ogres   <looks for passport...>

If you can swing the trip, my couch is open for hosting. However, my Beastmen will get first game.

Uhhh... What's wrong with me today!   

Sorry, I think the reason I said 48 attacks was because only 16 ogres get to attack with two characters in the unit.

Any more lists with hordes? If so, I would like to see them.

Tyrant, HA, IF, Giantbreaker, Sword of striking, TOTS, Greedy fist, E. shield

Firebelly, lvl 2, staff of sorcery

Bruiser, bsb, HA, IF, Runemaw

15 ogres, Sb, musc, IF, lookout gnoblar

34 gnoblars

4 Mournfang cavalry, IF, Sb, Dragonhide banner

1 sabretusk

1 sabretusk

1 Ironblaster

1 Ironblaster

2000 points exactly

It's a fighty list. Mainly because i want to try out a Tyrant, who's killy as can be. And second i want my horde kinda cheap with the ogres. The high strenght hits will come from my tyrant and the ironblasters if they are needed (and i have 9 ogres, and only 6 IG so its cheaper to get ogres :-P).

Greets

Why not to go Horde
Here's the big one:  redirectors can take most of your army out of the game.  You have to be very, very careful how you deal with these things, as they become a far bigger threat when you have more models and points invested in a single all-crushing horde.

Also, you may just like the MMU playstyle more.  Different things work better for different people.  Nothing wrong with that.

I will sometimes run a horde for fun, but I do not think it's the best strategy.

I'd like to add a few more drawbacks

3) Certain spells will be instant wins. For instance, if the opponent gets off purple sun, you will pretty much loose.
4) Its much easier to flank/rear charge a horde of of ogres. 
5) If you roll a 6 for terrain, then that means 10 peices. A smart opponent will then limit the battlefield by placing impassable terrain in such a way that you will be forced to move on their terms.
6) Huge frontage. This is important when facing hard hitting, high initiative armies (WoC)
7) And probably most important, and by alot in my opinion: they pretty much can only attack one thing at a time. So in a 6 turn game where they engage by turn 2 or 3, they are only going to have 4 rounds of combat or so.  If that horde was broken up into 3 units, that would be 12 rounds of combat. So if your opponent has a horde or an expensive deathstar, you can probably get away with only attacking one thing at a time. But if they are like Wildcard and have many small-medium sized units... good luck He is going to destroy your support and swarm the horde...

Seems like a cool list Grin Reaper. But:

Tyrant, HA, IF, Giantbreaker, Sword of striking, TOTS, Greedy fist, E. shield

You have to choose between enchanted shield and ironfist, though.

I'm not sure there are that many setbacks, though, nells. I understand that a bunch of people might have a bunch of units, though.

3) It's not an immediate loss if someone gets off purple sun as you can dispel it. Also, it's very unlikely that they will get it off unless they get irres. force, and even then, they take a miscast. Isn't It almost just as bad if it hits several small units?

4) I would argue that it's actually harder to flank or rear charge a horde of ogres. They have about the same size flank as a regular unit of 12 ogres or so. Also, it's harder to move around 6 ogres than 3 or 4 ogres, and with movement 6, it should be hard to get rear charged unless it's something like a redirector, and in that case, just send a character out to mop it up.

5) I suppose, but you can swift reform the unit if necessary to fit through small gaps and take your opponent by suprise, although terrain is indeed a problem with a ogre horde.

6) Even against WoC, you will still get a bunch of your ogres into combat and can reform in round 2 if necessary.

7) If you have smaller units, you are going to give up more points if several of the weaker units are destroyed. A horde is almost unbeatable by a single unit. Also, small units are not the best against hordes, either, they can destroy a bunch, and the support is pretty great, although a good horde player could beat a good weaker unit player, the same is true the other way around I think.

3) It's not an immediate loss if someone gets off purple sun as you can dispel it. Also, it's very unlikely that they will get it off unless they get irres. force, and even then, they take a miscast. Isn't It almost just as bad if it hits several small units?

There is nothing more devastating in the game than purple sun going through a horde of low initiative monstrous infantry. Rune maw doesn't help. And if I was the opponent, I'd take roll on the miscast table 3 times to get that off!

4) I would argue that it's actually harder to flank or rear charge a horde of ogres. They have about the same size flank as a regular unit of 12 ogres or so. Also, it's harder to move around 6 ogres than 3 or 4 ogres, and with movement 6, it should be hard to get rear charged unless it's something like a redirector, and in that case, just send a character out to mop it up.

Because the width of a horde is so wide, the range in which a unit can flank charge is wider. Take your typical mv 7 or 8 cavalry. Imagine the two flank circles of where that cavalry would be able to successfully charge from. Now reduce that unit to 3 or 4 ogres wide and redraw that circle. It would be substantially smaller. Never mind how much easier it would be to get a clip... 

5) I suppose, but you can swift reform the unit if necessary to fit through small gaps and take your opponent by suprise, although terrain is indeed a problem with a ogre horde.

One game, I had to shoot a building down with my ironblaster to let my horde with supporting units all go through. It sucked not shooting at the opponent.

6) Even against WoC, you will still get a bunch of your ogres into combat and can reform in round 2 if necessary.

If there is a round 2 They may not be able to cause enough wounds to wipe the horde, but they can win by 12 and throw all their dispell dice at stopping the signature spell.

7) If you have smaller units, you are going to give up more points if several of the weaker units are destroyed. A horde is almost unbeatable by a single unit. Also, small units are not the best against hordes, either, they can destroy a bunch, and the support is pretty great, although a good horde player could beat a good weaker unit player, the same is true the other way around I think.

It's a bit counter-intuitive at first, but being in horde formation where you can have a third row of three supporting attacks will in general mean you get less attacks throughout the game

More attacks = more victory points

3) I'm convinced that purple sun is bad now, and I guess it's a risk you have to take. You can dispel it if they don't irres. force it with a +6 bonus, though.

4) The monstrous calv. can be shot down or redirected, still. It would be hard for anything less than a movement 6 to get in, though.

5) Impassable terrain sucks most of the time, not only for you, but also for your opponent. I think it's just pretty much generally bad.

6) Crown of Command in a horde is kind of important for this reason.

7) Isn't 49 attacks at one time kind of  very very good, though?

7) Isn't 49 attacks at one time kind of  very very good, though?

I don't know where you got the number 49. A horde of naked ogres/guts has 18 x 3 = 54 attacks. And throw in a champion and characters, it would be even more. But generally 54 attacks on 3 units will often times be better than 54 attacks on a single unit.

just for the record, you'll rarely get all your attack, unless your opponent runs a horde too (which is kinda... stupid if he knows he's facing a horde).

anybody would run 5 large, 8 deep, and aim for steadfast while his buddy come and join the fun in flanks and rear.

All of a sudden, 36 attacks is alot less... Just for sakes of simplicity, lets consider its just 18 Ironguts, no characters.

hitting on 4s for the most part is 18, wounding on 2+ (with ironguts) is 15 wounds. If they carry shield, its down to roughly 12. A unit of 50 models could survive 2 round of cc easily before it lose its steadfast. thats a unit of DE spearman worth 350 pts.

While you're locked in cc with them, you have a unit of BlackGuard on one side, and a unit of Witch elves on the other.

To keep it equal, your 800 pts unit is facing 800 pts of dark elf,.

350 pts for 50 spearman.
260 pts for 20 blackguard (in rank of 8).
200 pts for 20 Witches (in rank of 8).

2nd round of combat, you still deal 12 wounds on the Spears.
9 attacks vs BG/WE, 5 hits, 4 wounds each.
3 Stomp on Spearman : 2 dead.
3 stomp on BG ; 2 dead.
3 stomp on WE ; 2 dead

you did 26 wounds.

30 Spearman attacks, hits on 3+, 20 hits, wounds on 5+, 13 wounds, 4 saved thanks to HA
20 BG, 24 attacks, hits on 3+ rerollable, 22 hits, wounds on 4+, 11 wounds. you save 2 thanks to HA.
20 WE, 32 attacks, hits on 3+ rerollable, 22 hits, (4 poison), wounds on 5+, 10 wounds total, you save 3 to HA.

9+9+7 = 25 wounds.

he just killed 8 Ogres, and lost half his spearman, 6 BG and 6 WE.

you can say that you have stuff to counter that, and that you have alot more behind than just this one unit. its true, but keep this in mind ; so does a DE.

Yes, I agree with the stats, but you haven't factored in if they have an augment on them or not, and also, ogres have the 6+ parry save from ironfists, and characters. Also, we should have weakened up the units before we get to them by  shooting them with leadbelchers and stuff.

Yes, I agree with the stats, but you haven't factored in if they have an augment on them or not, and also, ogres have the 6+ parry save from ironfists, and characters. Also, we should have weakened up the units before we get to them by  shooting them with leadbelchers and stuff.

I considered a unit of Ironguts. Note that it wouldnt be much better with bulls, since they wouldnt get a parry save from side charge.

And yes, shooting... they'd have (most likely) plenty of tools too, like 2 hydra, or a cauldron, or both, and many more units.

Augment is not something you can count on, so shouldnt be factored either.

I think it's fair to say that you should get at least 1 augment usually with a +6 to cast.

plenty of reason not to ;

rolled poorly nin the wind of magic, opponent using his dispel dice, your caster turned into a frog....

First of all, I should thank Gralph for an excellent analysis.

I'm very pro-horde myself. Part of this is just personal preference. I take great pleasure in simply bashing stuff into itty bitty pieces, and hordes definitely give you that ability. But part of it is I actually think it's good strategy. Wounds are the ultimate currency in WFB, if player A has done more wounds to player B, in general A is winning the game. Hordes allow you to get the most bang for the wounds you have on the table, as well as keeping wounds locked up in a unit that's difficult to milk VPs out of.

Obviously there are disadvantages which have been discussed above. But many of these can be alleviated with good generalship:

• Terrain goes both ways. A good tactican will use terrain to protect the flanks of his hordes.
• Magic can ruin any army's day, regardless of composition. It's that powerful. But hordes are in a position to absorb some casualties and still be combat effective. For example, dwellers will ruin roughly 1/3 of an Ogre unit. If it's a horde, that means you still have 12 IGs in the unit. That's scary. But cast on a unit of 9 and you're left with 6 bodies left that can't do much.
  
• Flank charges are not so valuable in 8th, where active combat res. rules the day. on top of that, an Ogre deathstar has 9 attacks going toward it's flank (plus stomps)! Unless you're getting flank charged by another deathstar, you can shrug off flankers.
  
• Either ignore re-directors, or shoot them
  

I honestly think a good general will beat a poor general regardless of army composition. But if two good generals are lining up against each other, I'm putting my money on the Tyrant who brought a horde.

I think it's now time to discuss what to horde, though. Ironguts vs. Ogres. I prefer ogres for several reasons:

1) They are very much points efficient.

2) They have a 6+ parry save if they don't get trollguts

3) They benefit from a ld. 8 general

4) They benefit from bullgorger

5) They don't always go last against all units, for example, dwarfs and some beastmen I think, and I'm pretty sure there are others. Also, we benefit against the people who are like: GW's cause they have initiative 2. Initiative 2 beats GW's.

P.S. Has anyone considered a gnoblar horde?

P.S.S. Great summary about hordes boarbiter.

I actually prefer Ironguts, for the following reasons:

1) More expensive, because they're more effective. Plus it's guaranteed to fill minimum Core, hands down.

2) Trollguts isn't as necessary when you swing at S6.

3) They make a Ld. 8 General a Ld. 9 General.

4) No need to cast Bullgorger in the first place; hooray for saved power dice!

5) Beastmen always have I3; O&G, Skeletons, Saurus, and fellow GW wielders would be the only guys you'd beat to the punch, and they're durable enough to tag you back anyway. It doesn't make much difference, and if you feel it does, use a Thundertusk.

6) Gnoblar Hordes can't kill anything.

1) But isn't it better to have more models to field? A horde of 18 ironguts costs a lot more than a horde of 18 ogres and 18 ogres with ironfists and full command fill up core about perfectly, over 6 points.

2) Why isn't trollguts as necessary? Dosen't anything get better with a little trollguts on em'? 

3) This is only if they have the standard of discipline, costing 15 more points, just making them less points efficient, although it's well worth the points. Wouldn't a built in general boost be better, though?

4) With Grut's sickle, you can cast bullgorger with 1 dice by dealing one wound to a 13 pt. less expensive model.

5) Striking first I feel makes a difference in a horde, especially I think. You have to be pretty darn durable to survive/not be pretty weakened by around 40 S4 or 5 WS 3 Attacks...

6) What if they had some buffs like from wildform? ...

1) No, the goal for the Guthorde is fill minimum Core by itself, and thus deny your opponent those points until they ALL die. You also get to kill stuff while you're at it, but that's not quite as relevant. Your Special, Rare, and character points are all reserved. If you didn't field the Guthorde, you'd field a Bullhorde with Gnoblars about to help plug the Core gap.

2) It does, but when you're expecting to win combat... not as necessary.

3) It would, but we don't have that. Instead, you have one unit that gives you the option for a Ld upgrade, and one that doesn't. Guess which one I'm picking?

4) Grut's Sickle means I can't field the Fencer's Blades + Glittering Scales + Greedy Fist combo of win on my SM, and that's not worth any casting bonus on an army that can't generate PD's anyway. Plus you have a (small) chance of straight dying.

5) Again, if you feel it does, use a T-Tusk. You can fit one into 2500 with a Horde and 2 Ironblasters, no sweat. I don't share that opinion - it's the sort of thing that only tends to matter when your opponent can rip half (or more) of a rank off you before you get to swing - most things just can't do that to Ogres, much less Ogres with buffs.

6) Even with Wildform, they're at S3. Can't kill anything.

Rothgar and I have very similar sentiments regarding this.  That said, here's a few little pointers:

1:  Keep the actual army lists over in the Army Lists subforum.  You'll get far more responses and the like there.

B:  Bulls can be effective as a horde, but they require much more support/buffs and they don't allow a Standard of Discipline.  Those two issues are huge.

III:  There is no point III.

Four:  I am not , by any stretch, saying that Horde is the One True Way to Play Ogres.  It will work very well if you know what you are doing, but it will fail spectacularly if you don't.  It's all on you there. 

B:  Bulls can be effective as a horde, but they require much more support/buffs and they don't allow a Standard of Discipline.  Those two issues are huge.

Though if you are planning on taking a Tyrant this can be a realistic option. As I have said in the Tyrant thread, taking him gives you a lot more options in your Core as you are not relying on Ironguts to have the Standard of Discipline.

Though if you are planning on taking a Tyrant this can be a realistic option. As I have said in the Tyrant thread, taking him gives you a lot more options in your Core as you are not relying on Ironguts to have the Standard of Discipline.

Certainly, but then you're looking at 5 decent-strength attacks and a whole lot of whiffing.

It boils down to this:  Bulls need buffs and Slaughtermasters are the best buffers we have.  So sure, a Tyrant doesn't need +1 Ld, but the bulls need something more than S/T 4 to not bounce off units.

I think I agree that the tyrant isn't usually the best option. Hmm... Has anybody considered a giant to help the bulls?

Although... Isn't ld. 8 good enough when you're going to win combat in a horde?

Not when that Horde isn't Immune to Psychology, and ours isn't. Even dead kitties will force a Panic test if you're close enough.

It boils down to this:  Bulls need buffs and Slaughtermasters are the best buffers we have.  So sure, a Tyrant doesn't need +1 Ld, but the bulls need something more than S/T 4 to not bounce off units.

I dont agree. A tyrant with stubborn crown and 4+ ward, a firebelly and 16+ bulls will run over nearly anything - buffs or not. They make a nice centerpiece with so many wounds and so much staying power that they will be nearly impossible to get points off. The tyrants S7 attacks will deal with the few things that S4 struggle against.

In my experience, the extra Str from the Ironguts really only comes into play if you are facing enemies with better then a 4+ save or T6+

otherwise, the bulls don't perform poorer considering their cheaper cost/increased staying power.

Basically, unless you are hitting Chaos Sword n board warriors I really don't see IGs having enough of an offensive advantage to justify the fewer wounds.

Bulls do fine against Str4/T4 enemies and rock Str3/T3 almost as good as IGs do.

Buffs aren't that hard to get if you play the magic phase right/get lucky. I can usually get at least 1 off, especially if I have another one my opponent really doesn't want me to have.

I agree with GT. Ogres are amazing in a horde. They can also fill core by themselves, too. 18 ogres+Ironfists+ FC=606 pts. Any thoughts on the giant with the ogre horde to help with leadership?

If you save points by going with a Bull Horde, the first thing I'd invest in with those points is a Tyrant, frankly. Otherwise, Ld becomes the elephant in the room. I have to say, though, going with Bulls will give you one major advantage, and that is that you have the option to pack a rank of "fat" on the unit - which is to say, 24 Ogres becomes rather feasible (not necessarily recommended, but feasible), points-wise. Bullgorger becomes your most important spell if you do this, though.

Any thoughts on the giant with the ogre horde to help with leadership?

What do you actually mean by this? Are you advocating joining a Giant to a unit of Bulls to give them Ld10? Because you can't do that.

Otherwise, a Giant is a Giant - he will do what he does no matter how you fill your Core. I don't think he brings anything special just because you have a Horde.

If you save points by going with a Bull Horde, the first thing I'd invest in with those points is a Tyrant, frankly. Otherwise, Ld becomes the elephant in the room. I have to say, though, going with Bulls will give you one major advantage, and that is that you have the option to pack a rank of "fat" on the unit - which is to say, 24 Ogres becomes rather feasible (not necessarily recommended, but feasible), points-wise. Bullgorger becomes your most important spell if you do this, though.

I always have a SM and BSB with Banner of Discipline. There, Ld8 rerollable.

Bulls do fine against Str4/T4 enemies and rock Str3/T3 almost as good as IGs do.

Thing is, you're not going to have to worry about S/T 3 models, and S/T 4 really isn't much of a concern either--remember, you're going to get a buff or two off unless you either have terrible luck or are plain careless.  Bulls get less benefit from Trollguts than Ironguts do, and either way you're likely striking last against anything but GW-armed units.

What you have to worry about, truthfully, is dealing with things like Chosen and Savage Orc Big'Uns and the like.  Warmachines are something of a lesser concern--a cannon has a slightly less than 50% chance of killing a single Ogre (unless my math is waaay off, which may be a possibility due to all the painting I've been doing this weekend).  Very few armies take enough ranged attacks to really matter, and you have the Rune Maw to deal with enemy spells.  You want to make sure that you hit your opponent hard enough to win combat, and Bulls just can't do that against the top-end units.

Having (even) more wounds really doesn't matter, either, since you're not looking to grind things out.  You want to hit hard, punch through units, and keep going.  Ironguts (and, of course, Maneaters) can do that, but Ogres will struggle unless they have the heck buffed out of them.

If you save points by going with a Bull Horde, the first thing I'd invest in with those points is a Tyrant, frankly. Otherwise, Ld becomes the elephant in the room. I have to say, though, going with Bulls will give you one major advantage, and that is that you have the option to pack a rank of "fat" on the unit - which is to say, 24 Ogres becomes rather feasible (not necessarily recommended, but feasible), points-wise. Bullgorger becomes your most important spell if you do this, though.

Thing is, you're never really saving points by getting Bulls over Ironguts--you want to fill up your 25% of Core and then move on to tastier things.  And yes, you'll get some ablative wounds, but not enough to truly matter.

I always have a SM and BSB with Banner of Discipline. There, Ld8 rerollable.

How's that working out?  I'd think that, without Rune Maw, a horde of Ogres is a massive liability due to Pit/Dwellers/etc.

But since Str4/T4 and Str3/T3 is the most numerous statline we will face and the fact that ironguts can't grind as effectivly as Bulls means that Bulls should be taken in the majority.

I still run a unit of Ironguts, but they are too few in number to carry the entire battle.

And Chosen really shouldn't be taken on directly anyway.


yes, technically Trollguts is worse when it takes away a save I already paid for, but the cost of that save is lessened by the fact I don't lose the assiciated armor save and I have more bodies for Trollguts to keep alive.

I prefer a 2-1 ratio of Bull to Gut units. The heavy hitting power the Guts give out isn't needed except against the relativly few enemy elites.

Well, I find that a horde of ogres works really well when you have a tyrant in there along with a butcher to give buffs and a BSB with a rune maw to deflect spells, i have played this many times againts high evles and it is devastaing. A horde of Ironguts would be best against WOC.

Sorry to dredge this up from the depths, but it didn't seem worth starting a new topic...

Does anyone have advice about running a horde at 2000pts? I've tried putting a list together, but there just don't seem to be the points for all the necessary components...

Ironically, I find that the lower the point range, the more effective a horde of ogres will be, primarilly based upon how people make lists for 1k games. I've played 1k games with an ogre horde and a naked slaughtermaster general and a naked bsb bruiser. The one unit was nearly ~900 of the 1k game. While you won't be able to take anything much in the form of support, my opponents didn't take much that would foil a horde of ogres.

At larger games, people tend to have lvl 4 wizards with purple sun, dwellers below, pit of shades etc. Or multiple cannons on the flanks.

But at 1k, opponents are in shock when I put down 18 ogres

PS

While I think it's fun to have an ogre horde, I think it's generally not a good strategy.

Nells, you need to have 3 units.  I know 2 sabretusks done but still.

But at 1k, opponents are in shock when I put down 18 ogres

PS

While I think it's fun to have an ogre horde, I think it's generally not a good strategy.

does your opponent ever accept to play against you after that?

But at 1k, opponents are in shock when I put down 18 ogres

PS

While I think it's fun to have an ogre horde, I think it's generally not a good strategy.

does your opponent ever accept to play against you after that?

Why wouldn't they?

Yeah, why wouldn't they? If they can't figure out how to deal with that, they need to read up on their tactics. You don't run at it headfirst, that's for sure.

About how to horde at 2k, I would do something like 15 ogres w/ full command and ironfists for core. Then, add in a lore of the great maw guy and you're pretty much set with a couple ironblasters and sabretusks.

P.S. Sorry sandals, thought giant was a hero, and not rare.... Ld. 10 general, wow...

About how to horde at 2k, I would do something like 15 ogres w/ full command and ironfists for core. Then, add in a lore of the great maw guy and you're pretty much set with a couple ironblasters and sabretusks.

Yeh that's pretty much what I had in mind. It's probably better in this case to go for bulls rather than guts to save points for support units (as you can still fill the 25% with bulls).

In terms of characters, are there any recommendations? I'd be inclined to go character light (well, ish), to share points around a bit. Probably just go with SM and BSB... I'd need 4 characters to push the BSB to the 2nd rank however, and if he's carrying the Rune Maw that leaves him rather vulnerable...

BSB with runemaw sound like a no brainer imho.

I think bsb w/ rune maw, lvl. 2 butcher or firebelly w/ grut's sickle or dispel scroll. That leaves you room for a bunch of support.

How I run my Guthorde is with a Slaughtermaster, Firebelly (maybe sometime soon Butcher instead) and Rune Maw BSB. Has always worked pretty well for me. Even though all my characters died today in a game, the rest of the horde still pulled out the win for me.

I very rarely play the same strategy twice against the same opponent. And not all my lists are "competitive". Variety is the spice of warhamming life!

How about something along these lines....

1 Lord: 385 Pts.   19.2%
2 Heroes: 390 Pts.   19.5%
1 Core Unit: 515 Pts.   25.7%
4 Special Units: 540 Pts.   27.0%
1 Rare Unit: 170 Pts.   8.5%

***************  1 Lord  *************** 

Slaughtermaster, General, Level 4 Upgrade
+  Fencer's Blades, Greedy Fist, Dispell Scroll
+  Lore of The Great Maw
- - - > 385 Points


***************  2 Heroes  *************** 

Bruiser
+  Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
+ Battlestandard Bearer, Rune Maw
- - - > 205 Points

Butcher, Level 2 Upgrade
+  Hellheart
+  Lore of The Great Maw
- - - > 185 Points


***************  1 Core Unit  *************** 

15 Ogres, Handweapon & Ironfist, Lookout Gnoblar, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 515 Points


***************  4 Special Units  *************** 

2 Sabretusks (single of course)
- - - > 42 Points

3 Leadbelchers, Musician
- - - > 139 Points

3 Leadbelchers, Musician
- - - > 139 Points

3 Mournfang Cavalry, Heavy Armour, Ironfist, Musician
- - - > 220 Points


***************  1 Rare Unit  *************** 

Ironblaster
- - - > 170 Points


Total Points: 2000

Ideally I'd prefer a Guthorde, but I reeeeally can't find the points at 2000.... thoughts?

Gee, at this point level at least you could get a proper horde(that is, a Horde thats a Horde without Characters)

18 ogres minimum in that Deathstar.

Gee, at this point level at least you could get a proper horde(that is, a Horde thats a Horde without Characters)

18 ogres minimum in that Deathstar.

Umm not really sure what you mean by that?

I mean you should never make a Horde unless you are going for the full 18 ogres(characters don't count)

The reason is so that you will be able to take casualities(and you WILL take them) and still pump out the maximum number of attacks.

18 Ogres plus 2-3 characters is bare minimum in my mind. 24 Ogres would be even better.

Actually that's a pretty good point, it only takes a few casualties to reduce the whole benefit of being a horde...

I agree. Drop some leadbelchers and fill in the space with 3 more ogres and some command / magic items.

Yep, a little "fat" is always appreciated in the world of Ogres.

I mean you should never make a Horde unless you are going for the full 18 ogres(characters don't count)

The reason is so that you will be able to take casualities(and you WILL take them) and still pump out the maximum number of attacks.  The other option would be to drop the Butcher altogether and upgrade the Bulls to Ironguts.  And, of course, you can swap out the Leadbelchers for more Mournfangs if you so desire.

Again, alternatively, drop the Leadies and the Butcher, take a second Ironblaster and a second unit of Mournfangs.

18 Ogres plus 2-3 characters is bare minimum in my mind. 24 Ogres would be even better.

Eh, it kind of depends.  Ablative wounds are nice if you have the points readily available, but they're secondary to everything else.  Remember, until they're done 18 wounds to the unit, you're still getting a benefit to going Horde.  And once they do said wounds, combat reform.

That said, if you're going to take two wizards at 2000 points, the Butcher really should be taking Beasts to make the Bulls worthwhile.

Once you start taking damage(1/2 the 3rd rank) you arn't getting as much benifit from the horde formation.

You might as well reform to be 4 wide and possably be Steadfast.


I think the way to do hordes is either go big or go home.

Not necesarrily, roll for butcer first and your chance of getting trollguts, etc. increases.

Also, I agree w/ GT.

a Lvl4 with Gutmagic has something like an 85% chance to get Trollguts just from his 4 spells(Doubles and any roll of a 5)

It's easier to count the ways you DON'T get Trollguts on a L4 than the ways you DO.

There's 5 (1,2,3,4,6) * 4 (1,2,3,4,6 - 5 result) * 3 (1,2,3,4,6 - 5,4 result) * 2 (1,2,3,4,6 - 5,4,3 result) possible permutations on four dice that does-not give you a five or double. That's 120.

The full set of dice permutations for 4d6 is 1296. So 1296 possibilities - 120 that do-not-have Trollguts gives you 1176/1296, or 90.74%.

You can apply this to any spell, BTW. You have a 90.74% chance of getting any specific spell with a L4. With a L2, it goes down to 44.44%.

Personally, I think that I'd give Bullgorger a bit higher priority on a Horde of Bulls. I have the ablative wounds in the back for a reason, after all. To be honest, I'm actually liking this "Bull-horde" idea. I'm going to have to play around with it a bit more.

The Bull horde really does live or die based on buffs.  If you can get them to S6 reliably, they'll do surprisingly well, but otherwise they'll wind up struggling against the tougher things in the game.

And that's a real issue at 2000 points because you do not have the wiggle room to throw high-strength support units into your list.  One bad magic phase and something like a Destroyer is doing terrible things to your army and there's nothing you can do about it.

Interesting points thanks fellas.

@Gralph: Given that this is your thread and I'm treating you as a gaming guru despite the disclaimer... How would you alter your excellent Guthorde list, if you had to play at 2000pts?

The Bull horde really does live or die based on buffs.  If you can get them to S6 reliably, they'll do surprisingly well, but otherwise they'll wind up struggling against the tougher things in the game.

It really depends on the characters you bring with the bulls. A few S7 characters and a firebelly in addition to those 50+ s4 attacks, and I think you are good to go against anything. The big advantage with a bull horde is the cheapness of it. 18 bulls with fc is only around 600 points. Thats a fair deal. And with a stubborn crown, I really cant see them dying... like ever!

Interesting points thanks fellas.

@Gralph: Given that this is your thread and I'm treating you as a gaming guru despite the disclaimer... How would you alter your excellent Guthorde list, if you had to play at 2000pts?

Put simply, I wouldn't. 

Honestly, I have no idea beyond "Um, well..."  Quite literally every game in my area is 2500 points and I wouldn't know where to begin otherwise.  I would say that you would likely need to turn the Mournfangs into 2-man units, but that really hurts, and the Firebellies would likely have to go as well.

Thing is, I don't really "modify" armies so much as rebuild them from the ground up.

...

Actually, after stepping away and thinking about it a little, I might actually remove the Mournfang Riders for Maneaters, as it may be more cost-effective at the lower points we'd have left.  But I don't know--I dislike the assymetry that Maneaters inherently bring to an army.

Oh man, that's just not what I wanted to hear 

My initial thoughts were something along the lines of a more character light build, with a SM and Rune Maw BSB, 16 IGs, 2 x 3 MFC, an IB and however many Sabres I have room for.... Sound good/bad/ugly?

I could go for a Bullhorde to save points for support units, but then Ld becomes a big problem, as does mediocre strength... Man this is harder than I thought it would be!!

It really depends on the characters you bring with the bulls. A few S7 characters and a firebelly in addition to those 50+ s4 attacks, and I think you are good to go against anything. The big advantage with a bull horde is the cheapness of it. 18 bulls with fc is only around 600 points. Thats a fair deal. And with a stubborn crown, I really cant see them dying... like ever!

Again, it depends on what you're going up against.  A handful of decent attacks really doesn't help against the Destroyer or Sphinx spam or those occasions when you run into a Stegadon.  It also doesn't help when you go up against a "better" horde like, say, Marauders or Chosen or (maybe, I haven't done the math, but they're still nice) Ghouls or something.

The issue I have with the Bullhorde is that it has a tendency to bounce off things, and you just plain cannot afford to have that happen.

The matchup against Marauders is better than what you're giving it credit for, Gralph. Remember that Marauders are T3 and naked, and that you go first. And besides, isn't that what Mournfangs were for?

You do bring up a strong point, though, with regards to stuff like Chosen and Destroyers. There are stuff that mass S4 attacks can't overwhelm, but mass S6 can. I think that a well-timed Bullgorger combined with some beefy characters nip that in the bud, though. I wouldn't bother with the Stubborn hat if I had a Maw Slaughtermaster, though. Your opponent has 2 options - either he stops Spinemarrow, lets Bullgorger through, and loses the ensuing fight; or he stops Bullgorger, lets Spinemarrow through, and you'll be Stubborn even if you lose that fight.

There is also the option of a Beast caster.

Wyssens does the job of Bullgorger and Toothcracker at the same time. Have a couple of these guys and your Bulls just got insanely tough.

There is also the option of a Beast caster.

Wyssens does the job of Bullgorger and Toothcracker at the same time. Have a couple of these guys and your Bulls just got insanely tough.

Yeah, if you decide to do a Bull horde, I'd suggest a Beasts caster to be mandatory. Problem is, a Level 4 Maw plus Level 1-2 Beasts plus BSB plus Horde starts eating points away too quickly at 2000 points. And even then, all it takes is a bad winds roll to leave you hanging out to dry.

Also, Marauders are one of those things you do not want your Mournfangs charging if you can possibly help it. 41 S5 attacks hurt.

I find it to be different. Just the sheer number of attacks that you get from the ogres is amazing. I find it not too bouncy, and even if you do bounce off, the sheer number of point denial that you have is great so if you just eventually destroy the unit, you're winning.

17+ ogres (fc) led by a tyrant with 4+ ward, gw and stubborn crown.

One way or the other, that unit is going to be a serious obstacle. I would position it directly opposite to the strongest enemy unit and get the dice rolling. What are the odds he is ever going to cut his way through that many wounds anyway? :-)