New highelf FAQ 7/11/2008

The rules are clear, and obviously the alchemical reason for this is that the armour repels both the element of fire and the vessel that is imbued with it

Your magic makes the sword/cannon ball/goo flaming.

My magic repels flaming.

Your sword/cannonball/whatever is flaming, so my magic repels it.

Imagine it like two magnets. You are shooting a chunk of ferrous metal at me. Your 'flaming' magic has applied a strong positive charged on it. I have a very strong positive charge as well due to my 'anti-flaming' magic. When your positively charged chunk of metal get's close to me, my positive charge will force it to slow down, redirect, and stop, preventing me from taking any damage.

There ya go, fluff, RAW, FAQ'd and logic.

-Rick

Actually, that new spin of Rick's has almost made me change my mind! It makes a lot more sense that way

JJ

Hmmmm, nice explanation there Rick I can also see the though train in Mercules'.

However, it still seems a little OTT to me that the armour can repel something moving as fast with such a weight as a cannonball in a magnet like manner, just because it has an element of fire attached to it.

But meh, It's in the rules and something that I have to live with, not the end of the world, just annoying

That is my opinion on the general consensus that the Greedy Fist can't destroy 20+ horrors in a single phase of combat. Annoying, but a rule I can live with (But I'm still guessing 50/50 GW will FAQ the GF to be of some use against them!)

-Rick

Yes, and we all know it will be number 4 and not 5.

You guys are late aren't you? those 2 answers have been there since April and it doesn't change the Remains in Play part of Ogres isn't a normal one, the +3 applies to the cast value, not to the 'remains in play value'.

I don't see any reason for you to be rude about when we choose to discuss this information.

So +3 the Power Level of 7 for the new dispel cost of the Gut Magic RIP spell?

Has anyone from the Stronghold attempted to get clarification on this from GW?

Because you're all ignoring the spell itself: Drain Magic adds +3 to the CAST VALUE.
Ogre spells cast value becomes 6+, however, an Ogre RIP spell is dispelled on a 7+ while in play, regardless of the cast value at the moment of casting it. You do not add +3 to RIP values, you add +3 to the cast value.

Turn 1, I cast Flames of the Phoenix on your 25 gnoblars and then Drain Magic (2 different mages), both get through your dispels, Turn 2, you try to dispel it before they burn again - you need a 14+ because that is its current Cast Value and thus its RIP Value.

You cast Trollguts on your Tyrant's unit, the spell goes through, I attempt to dispel it during my own Magic Phase after Drain Magic has been cast by myself: Your cast value has gone from 3 to 6, but your special Ogre Rules state that your RIP are treated as Power Level 7. As you know, Cast Value and Power Levels ARE two different terms in the Magic of Warhammer - Drain MAgic does not affect bound items that have a Power Level and so your Ogre spells are dispelled on a 7+ regardless of how many Drain Magics are stacked.



Next up, Dragon Armour.
Hey, we play with miniature figurines made of metal and plastic, and greenstuff and glue.
We play those minis in a fantasy context with rules surrounding that game and world.

How is it unthinkable that something is Immune to a certain thing?
We see it all the time in video games, we see it in animated series, we read it in stories.

Dragon Armour makes the model and its mount Immune to Flaming Attacks - by the rules, a model with 'Flaming Attacks' has all its attacks with that modifier - the Dragon Armour models are thus Immune to the attack.

Sure someone with a 5+ ward save can fail his ward and be hit by the flaming cannon ball but even if it has a chance to fail, when it succeeds, you don't complain how its ridiculous that a gobin somehow blocked an entire cannon ball and stands tall and proud.


O:


And last topic, Immune to Poison is now Immune to anything that is a poison - dark venom, manbane, black lotus in the Dark Elf book (new one) says very clearly that models immune to poisons are immune to these as well.

And last topic, Immune to Poison is now Immune to anything that is a poison - dark venom, manbane, black lotus in the Dark Elf book (new one) says very clearly that models immune to poisons are immune to these as well.

Really?!?

JJ

Because you're all ignoring the spell itself: Drain Magic adds +3 to the CAST VALUE.
Ogre spells cast value becomes 6+, however, an Ogre RIP spell is dispelled on a 7+ while in play, regardless of the cast value at the moment of casting it. You do not add +3 to RIP values, you add +3 to the cast value.

That's getting a bit deep isn't it? I mean, the intent of the rule is pretty dang clear, dispelling RIP spells should be harder when Drain Magic is up. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That is the intent of the rule.

Gut Magic can be dispelled in your casting phase, as if it were a RIP spell. So you treat it identical to how you would treat at RIP spell, and that means that the effective cast value on it is 7.

Yes, the wording is slightly blurry on it due to an odd choice of words in the OK book. But the intent is patently obvious. If I had a HE player claim as you do, that it is not effected, I would ask one of our local league reps. If they didn't want to make the call, I would 4+ it each time it came up. If that isn't good enough for you, that's okay, there are plenty of other people to play against and I'm here for fun and to learn, not lawyer-ing my way to a victory.

-Rick

For once Rick and I agree 

It does say "as if cast with a power level of 7" for the RIP Gut Magic dispel. I would agree that the wording isn't clear, but yes ... the intent is there. Sorry.

I believe what Silver is pointing out is that Drain Magic specifically does not affect "Power Level" at all which is clarified in the FAQ. It affects "Casting Value". Gut Magic's Casting Value depends on if this spell has been cast successfully earlier in the phase, 3+, 6+, 9+, 12+, and so on. RIP Gut Magic spells are not dispelled by that value at all, ever. They are dispelled as if they had a power level of 7 even if their casting value when they were cast was 18+. So... raising the Casting Value, which Drain Magic does, does not in any way affect how you dispel RIP Gut Magic. It ONLY affects the other Lores because they use Casting Value to dispel RIP spells in later turns.

In following turns spells that are RIP use their casting value listed in the book for their power level don't they?

I believe what Silver is pointing out is that Drain Magic specifically does not affect "Power Level" at all which is clarified in the FAQ. It affects "Casting Value". Gut Magic's Casting Value depends on if this spell has been cast successfully earlier in the phase, 3+, 6+, 9+, 12+, and so on. RIP Gut Magic spells are not dispelled by that value at all, ever. They are dispelled as if they had a power level of 7 even if their casting value when they were cast was 18+. So... raising the Casting Value, which Drain Magic does, does not in any way affect how you dispel RIP Gut Magic. It ONLY affects the other Lores because they use Casting Value to dispel RIP spells in later turns.

True, but no RIP spell uses it's PL to determine dispel, they use the casting value. The only problem is that in the OK book, they phrased the rule oddly. The intent of the rule is clear though. Gut Magic can be dispelled as if it were a RIP spell, and RIP spells are more difficult to dispel due to Drain Magic.

-Rick

In following turns spells that are RIP use their casting value listed in the book for their power level don't they?

All except Ogre Gut Magic spells. They are just a flat 7+ as if it was cast at that POWER LEVEL not Casting Value. That is the crux of the issue, the poor choice of wording in the Ogre Kingdoms book. It should have said as if it had a casting value of  7+.

I believe what Silver is pointing out is that Drain Magic specifically does not affect "Power Level" at all which is clarified in the FAQ. It affects "Casting Value". Gut Magic's Casting Value depends on if this spell has been cast successfully earlier in the phase, 3+, 6+, 9+, 12+, and so on. RIP Gut Magic spells are not dispelled by that value at all, ever. They are dispelled as if they had a power level of 7 even if their casting value when they were cast was 18+. So... raising the Casting Value, which Drain Magic does, does not in any way affect how you dispel RIP Gut Magic. It ONLY affects the other Lores because they use Casting Value to dispel RIP spells in later turns.

True, but no RIP spell uses it's PL to determine dispel, they use the casting value. The only problem is that in the OK book, they phrased the rule oddly. The intent of the rule is clear though. Gut Magic can be dispelled as if it were a RIP spell, and RIP spells are more difficult to dispel due to Drain Magic.

-Rick

That rule also states they are only more difficult as a side effect of the spell. I'm not sure the intent was there, although that would point to a rather large oversight on GWs part, but we all know they never over look simple things the rest of us pick up on in the first pass through a new books, right? 

What I've been saying is that, the Drain Magic spell does not make all 'remains in play' spells automatically harder to dispel - they become harder BECAUSE their Cast Value increases, not because they are 'Remains in play' spell.

For ogres, you don't use the cast value to dispel their 'Remains in play' spells, you use the special army rule, so Drain Magic is doubly effective against Ogres until GWShop decides otherwise.

Also, of the games I've played with my High Elves (which I don't play anymore) against Ogres, it was never an issue, I either didn't have enough power dice to spend on dispelling or Drain Magic didn't get through - and I played a Lv 4 + a Lv 2 against Scrag + 1 Butcher.

Q. If Drain Magic has been successfully cast, does it make it more difficult to dispel Remains in Play spells? For example, if a High Elf Archmage successfully casts Flames of the Phoenix upon the enemy and a High Elf Mage subsequently successfully casts Drain Magic, would the enemy need to roll a 14 to dispel it in his turn? Or would the enemy only need to roll an 11 to dispel it in his turn?

A. The enemy would need a 14 – Drain Magic does make Remains in play spells more difficult to dispel, as it raises their casting value (a freak consequence of playing around with the Winds of Magic, perhaps?). When Drain Magic stops working, however, the Remains in play spells revert to their original casting value.

Q. Similarly, does Drain Magic have an affect on spells that are cast at the power level of their casting cost? For  example, if a spell is cast due a result of 6 on the Miscast table when Drain Magic is in play, would it be cast at its listed casting value or its listed casting value +3?

A. +3, following the answer above. Such a spell would be more difficult to dispel, as it would have a higher casting value.


From the "ogre friendly" side (wich i'm on)the FAQ say this:
Drain Magic does make Remains in play spells more difficult to dispel,.....

Simple as that!


Counter argument:the second part of the sentence:
... , as it raises their casting value (a freak consequence of playing around with the Winds of Magic, perhaps?).


The second part of the line is how they explain why it is that way. That is not the rule stated there, just the explanation. It doesn't say anywhere that RIP that are cast any other way don't get this, they make no exeptions. Since they didn't bother to add gut magic exceptions they must have thought that the rule they stated covered it all. Our spells are dispelled like RIP. The rule states that they are harder to dispel.
Use the fireball logic here too then:
-Immune to fire: flaming cannonball dissapears (explanation not good at all), but it goes. Who cares about what the explenation behind the rule is. The rule is stated.
-+3 to all RIP dispel: Same as above. The rule is stated. Rest is just trying to explain the logic behind it. Wich does or does not makes sence.


So:
+3 to all RIP dispel: Rule with drain magic
because the casting value, bla bla bla= explenation


Do i make sence?

Great... now quote the rules for Dispelling Gut Magic spells that stick around.

An opponent may dispel any Gut Magic spell in his own Magic phase as though it was a Remains in Play spell cast with a Power level of 7.

It is not dispelled using casting value. Look at the reasoning they give for the answer.

A. +3, following the answer above. Such a spell would be more difficult to dispel, as it would have a higher casting value.

Casting value goes to 6+ on a Gut Magic spell but determining if you can dispel it isn't based on Casting value, but Power level.

You are right, Drain Magic does make Remains in play spells more difficult... but it is not as simple as that because of another part of the Ogre rules for Gut Magic.

Unlike remains in play spells, a Butcher may have more than one Gut Magic...

Gut Magic spells are NOT remains in play spells or that line would state, "Unlike -OTHER- remains in play spells..." Gut Magic spells are never referred to as Remains in Play spells.

Once a Gut Magic spell with a lasting effect has been successfully cast, place...

Not Remains in Play spells.

This argument is pointless. It could go easily either way. I declare a moratorium on this subject until someone actually attempts to get a more "official" answer from GW!

Re: The fire immunity bit. There is a precedent for such a rule. The Dwarf book states that any Cannon imbued with a rune becomes a magic weapon, it doesn't matter what the rune is. Say for instance it is the suicide bomber rune which you can use to blow up the warmachine ... it still shoots magic cannonballs.

Similar logic used in a slightly different situation.

Great... now quote the rules for Dispelling Gut Magic spells that stick around.

An opponent may dispel any Gut Magic spell in his own Magic phase as though it was a Remains in Play spell cast with a Power level of 7.

Great, now find me the rule that applies "Power Level" to "Remains in play" spells. You may have a hard time though, because there is no such rule. "Power Level" applies only to bound spells. This was an editing mistake, pure and simple. The words "Power Level" were used by someone who was intending to use the words "Casting Value".

If we were to read it the way you are insisting, then the dispell RIP rule would mean that it would only ever take a 3 to dispell a gut magic buff as it's "Casting Value" (the value that the Dispelling RIP rule is written for) is only 3. The "Power Level" of 7 does not apply to dispelling RIP and so it has no effect on anything.

There for, using your reading of the rules, dispelling Gut Magic would alway occur on a 3/6/9... applying drain magic would make it 6/9/12... and the "power level of 7" rule would be ignored because power level has no bearing what so ever on dispelling RIP spells.

-Rick

I am thinking that would fall under the

Note that there may be exceptions to the above rules, and they will be specified in the spell description or other special rules.

You know... like how you can dispel Gut Magic in later turns which states it uses Power level 7 and not Casting Value. Power level is not affected by Drain Magic but Casting Value is.

I think the issue is you want it to have the affect you think it should have and I want it to have the affect you think it should have but I am reading the rules.

Why would they not state Gut Magic spells are Remains in Play spells? To avoid confusion. They don't work like Remains in Play AT ALL.
1. RiP spells can be ended at will by the caster, GM spells can't.
2. RiP spells only last until the caster attempts to cast another spell, GM spells allow the caster to cast whatever he wants.
3. RiP spells use the Casting Value for dispelling in later magic phases, GM spells use a set value because their Casting Value is variable.

Yes, as you state, it would be nice if they had used "As a RiP spell with a Casting Value of 7." instead of power level. The fact(and not Ogre biased judgement of intent) is that the book does not say Casting Value it states Power Level which is uneffected. This means that until GW does FAQ it(if that ever happens) it remains that Drain Magic has no effect on the number needed to dispel GM spells in later turns.

They don't work like Remains in Play AT ALL.

Other than being dispelled "as though it were a remains in play spell"

As we are in agreement on, dispelling a RIP spell is based on Casting Value as per the RIP rules. The Ogre book does not say that it can be dispelled on a power level of 7. It says it can be dispelled as though it were a RIP spell with a power level of 7. But Power Level has no effect on RIP spells. There for, if we assume the use of the words "power level" where intentional in the OK GM Dispell rule, then that line was superflous and the GM is dispelled on a Casting Value of 3.

So once again, find me a rule that says "power level" has anything to do with RIP magic.

If you can't find anything that says RIP spells can be dispelled base on their power level, there are only 2 possible meanings:

1) Gut Magic is intended to be dispelled on it's casting value (3/6/9...) and can be effect by drain magic (6/9/12...)

2) The use of power level was an editing mistake and should be casting value. Meaning that Gut Magic is intended to be dispelled on a casting value of 7, and can be effected by drain magic (at a 10).

You can't claim Power Level works both ways, it either applies absolutely, or it doesn't at all. Either way, Drain Magic effects gut magic dispells.

-Rick

nice argument.
i should defenatly print out some of these in case i play a serious tourney and someone makes a point out of this

Hmmmm.... Right! RAW sucks so much!

JJ

the problem is, without the clearest of rules, Rules as Intended as so  hard to determine. How do you know if aren't the rules writer.

when playtesting, we would have 6 or 7 of us and we would have 4 or 5 interpretations of the rule.  It's better to have the rules written clearly, so that Rules as Written is the best way.  Otherwise, it's just a bunch of monkeys in a barrel trying to pull each other down to get to the top.. and usually none of the monkeys are right.