toughness 5?

Give us a Roc, 50mm flying just like a Great Eagle, and a pack of saber tusks fast cavalry single wound versions of the flesh hounds from Daemons.

That solves a lot of problems with out creating anything over powered like a T5 R&F core choice or excessive power creep to Yhetees (although I would still like to see either ItP or a limited 5+ ward save similar to the Forest Spirit ward save)

Because while the Treekin don't have a 7" move, they do have a 4+ armor save, a 5+ ward save, and ItP.

1" more move for the 3d6 Flee/Overrun is nice, but honestly, a 4+ armor, 5+ ward and ItP would be way more useful.

-Rick

Tree Kin only move 5.  The Tree kin are better on their own many times in hand to hand but Yhetees are amazing in an OK army.  Minus 1 to hit against WS 3 units is incredibly powerful.  On the to hit roll against, Treekin are only better against WS 4 units.  Yhetees have an advantage over WS 3- and 5+.  Yhetees move over more terrain than treekin.  ItP is a big deal and I wouldn't mind having it sometimes but then I wouldn't be able to flee and I'd be afraid of the ItP for them being frenzy which really reduces their flexibility.  The fact that I can flee with Yhetees is a bonus, forced to flee is of course a whole other thing.  Defense against shooting is a waste of points for them because they are so easily able to avoid being shot at thanks to terrain.

They feel like 65 points to me.  I don't think they would make any sense with new abilities or stat lines.  Worse comes to worse lower the point value.  The recent point reductions have been limited to Core choices mostly and to be more specific core infantry choices.

little bit off-topic here, but what does ltP mean?

Immune to Psychology.  It's one of the few acronyms that I end up using.  Quite a few letters in it.

What do you mean about Yhetees and frenzy?

-Rick

i like the idea of the roc and sabretusks, but how would it fit into the OK list? sabretusks and rocs wouldnt just fight out of their own will for the ogres, although they could be modified to make the hunter a more viable choice in an army (i.e. you have to take a hunter before you can have sabretusk packs or a roc). fast cav and a flyer would be a helpful addition to an ogre army.

I mean that I'm afraid that if they gave Yhetees ItP that they would give it to them by giving them Frenzy.  This would effectively make Yhetees more vulnerable to everything and I don't think I would use them anymore.

yhetees with frenzy - sign me up!!   an extra 3 attacks from the unit and ItP so no panic checks from a lucky stand and shoot sound great to me.

also, as they can move through terrain its easy enough to deploy and move them so that the "forced charge" bit of the frenzy rule is a minimal disruption to your plans.

I'd love the unit to be like that (drool) as I'd use them pretty much as I do now and I'd get more bang for my buck when they hit the opposing lines.

mind you - giving them additional hand weapons would also be good - and more in keeping with the models since 2 out of every 3 have them already.  Imagine for a moment yhetees with AHW and frenzy......mmmmmm lovely!!

what if they gave ogres a feel no pain rule that would basicly be a 6+ ward save, not great but it would make people feel better?

i like the idea of the roc and sabretusks, but how would it fit into the OK list? sabretusks and rocs wouldnt just fight out of their own will for the ogres, although they could be modified to make the hunter a more viable choice in an army (i.e. you have to take a hunter before you can have sabretusk packs or a roc). fast cav and a flyer would be a helpful addition to an ogre army.

You stick enough Gnoblars on somethings back and it'll do whatever we tell them to tell it to do.

I don't really want the rocs or sabretusks in the army. What I really want are options to make the tools we have better, not more tools. I like that ogres don't have access to all the units other armies have (artillery, fliers, fast cav etc), and giving it all to us would very quickly make the ogre army a stinking pile of limburger.

GW will not move ogres from the basic definition they have had for years.  None of the basic stats will change, nor would they give us a ward save.  Why would they? 

But in the vein of "every new army seems to get one major upgrade" (HE get ASF, DE get +1 attack on the charge, etc)...I wonder what ogre army-level upgrade we could expect.  It won't be +1 T for all ogres, I am sure of that.

they have given the new DE eternal hatred which means they hate everyone.

i think feel no pain is the kind of thing they would add to ogres.

1 unit of single wound fast calv and a single special slot flyer wouldn't exactly be 'giving us it all'.

And how can you make us better in combat?

Pop IG's up to WS 4?
Give all Ogres a 6+ 'tough hide' Sv?
Remove the charge limit on Bull Charge?

Those are nice little pick me ups, but nothing that is going to swing combat our way. If you "fix" us by increasing our combat presence by more than that we will be called "broken" by anyone who gets into combat with us, and our army will still lose 75% of the time because any half way skilled general is going to use march blocking, redirects, forced flanks and leadership tests to prevent us from getting into combat.

We are already one of the hardest hitting CC armies. Some minor tweaks to that will help us maintain our "most killy" status accounting for the power creep. But increasing our killing ability more will not do anything for our ability to put up a strategic fight or to win.

If you want an "I'm a newb" army that has a total strategy of "march straight forward" there are some great VC lists that can help people learn the basics and introduce them to the fundamental strategies of Warhammer.

If you want an army list that gives you strategic options (more than just Bait and Flee) and is a challenge to play, stick with Ogres and lobby GW for a few more tools to do our job with Those tools are things that need to help us control the board so that we can force combat. And if you've never been march blocked and avoided for 6 turns, you should come up to Wisconsin, there are some brutal Generals up here that will make you hate life for flyers and skirmishers.

If you want an army list that gives you almost every strategic option in the book, including the kitchen sink, pick up the WE book, they do in fact, have it all (or damn close to it). Their ability to work strategy is highly dynamic and they can alter roles mid fight to react to the changing status of the battle.

-Rick

I too think T5 is completely over the top, and it'll never happen.  I can imagine the moans from all the S3 armies now.

The army is a bit limited how it is, and an extra unit type in the core choice wouldn't go amiss.  Maybe a  pit fighter, (limited in number as gnoblar fighters are now);   frenzied, 2 hand weapons, HA, S5.  Something interesting and different, to give more variety.  If Rhinox come in as a rare choice, maybe Maneaters will become a special.??  Not that it makes them more viable of course.!!

The cries of lets have a flying monster, cavalry etc, just 'water down' the uniqueness of the army IMHO. Having said that, I'd go with the thick hide rule, and IG WS4. 

If they had some of the above, some added magic items to deal with monsters, flyers, and some banners REALLY worth taking, I'd be happy.

A copy of the Skaven 'No-Fly-Zone' banner would be nice. You could even fluff it in as 'Winds of the Maw' where the banner exudes a putrid sulfurous smoke that blankets the battle field preventing flyers from taking to the skys.

-Rick

An ogre storm banner (that grounds fliers and penalizes shooting) would indeed be a good banner to add.  We certainly need it more than skaven who can easily deal with missile attrition.

There was an earlier post about giving all Bulls light armour. I like that Idea.

There was an earlier post about giving all Bulls light armour. I like that Idea.

Since they already have light armor, I assume you mean a "thick hide" save of 6+, to which light armor could be added for 5+, etc?

I assume he means the +6 thick hide save for their base cost which I am a huge fan of.

Why don't Ogres have some kind of natural resistance to damage damnit!!!??

Why don't Ogres have some kind of natural resistance to damage damnit!!!??

T4 and W3. It's standard for 40mm units and that is why we have it. Trolls have regen, and treekin are made out of... well, trees. The best we are likely to get in this arena is a 6+ thick hide or feel no pain save.

The army is a bit limited how it is, and an extra unit type in the core choice wouldn't go amiss.  Maybe a  pit fighter, (limited in number as gnoblar fighters are now);   frenzied, 2 hand weapons, HA, S5.  Something interesting and different, to give more variety.  If Rhinox come in as a rare choice, maybe Maneaters will become a special.??  Not that it makes them more viable of course.!!

i agree that another core choice would be goo to flesh out the list a bit, but i dun think pit fighter would be a viable choice. if you stick to the fluff of the codex, all ogres are technically pitfighters. i did(along with a bunch of other people probably), however, have the idea of turning gnoblar scrappers into an actual unit. they're mentioned numerous times in the codex, and there is already a unit that shows their presence. they could take the role of the shooty RnF unit, as scrapper are always inventing badly functioning peices of equipment. they wouldn't be anything special, just gnobby's with light armor(from the scrap they wear) with missile weapons that could have special rules to show the weapons ever malfunctioning behavior(a 1 causes the weapon to explode dealing D2 S2 hits to the unit, and a 6 causes the weapon to become armor piercing. the weapons would be at S3) just a thought open for discussion

Bulls don't come with light armour they can upgrade to it. But I was talking about the artical that was talking about having tough skin = light armour then you could have light or heavy armour added to it. Sorry for the confustion I was on break at work and ran out of time.

That combo would lead to 2+ armor saves in close combat. Is that really the solution?

2+ for characters. The best our troops could get is a 3+, and that still means our bulls only get the 3 attacks each with no armor piercing.
And getting a 2+ save for characters still means they have to sacrifice hitting power.

True, but if you differentiate the Bulls and IG based on stats instead of gear (+1 WS, +1 Ld for IGs) and give them both all of the upgrade options, you could have a 2+ on R&F.

Gut Plate = 6+
HA = 4+
IF = 3+
Parry = 2+

Getting 1 unit of IG tooled up like that would make them a really good stick, not a full on mud pit, but they would be able to take a charge and at least have a chance of surviving.

-Rick

It'd certainly make for some very neat conversions, ogres wearing what amounts to a small house, or an entire horse and knight worth of armor.