Big Monstrosity of a Unit

Disclaimer: This isn't an army list thread, its a theory one so I'm guessing it belongs here in the feeding grounds.


People told me to totally give up on the idea of large units - MSU is the only way to go apparently. And while I guess they're probably right, does really no one ever try big monster units of ogres? I'm still building my army so my points are low, but take a look at this:

275 - 7x bulls, standard, bellower

199 - Bruiser, Tenderiser, HA, Luck gnoblar, 2x Sword gnoblars

190 - Butcher - Bangstick, Cookbook, 2x tooth gnoblars

190 - Butcher - wyrdstone necklace, Siegebreaker, 2x tooth gnoblars

All of the above in one unit, giving you: 1 rank, 1 standard, US 30, most of the front rank has T5

105 - 3 x bulls

40 - 20 gnoblars

999 pts - the 3 extra bulls are to go after lone warmachines and the like. The gnoblars maybe plug up a hole somewhere and grab table quarters. (sub-question, can one unit sit on the dividing line and grab 2 quarters? After all, theres over US 5 in each side).

Now, I reckon most people are dribbling with disgust and muttering to themselves right now as they shake their heads at their computer screens, but just think about it. With only 1 real main unit, troll guts becomes very viable. You only have to suffer 1 wound (maybe not even that with a cookbook) in order to give 85% of your army regeneration and MR 2. Thats massive, surely? Then you can use the rest of your dice offensively. A standard also is not a waste considering the size of the unit youre giving it to. With SCR of 3 and the usual tenderiser overkill of 6, not to mention other kills, you'll be finding yourself winning, outnumbering and autobreaking enemies. So in other words, you'll be rocking in combat and you get real nice defense against magic AND shooting, making sure you get there in the first place and minimising the chance of panic.

Well, I haven't played this yet but I'll probably try it out tomorrow and see what happens. What do you all think?

I'll not say this list will do poorly. It may do well. Actually I imagine it will either do well or horribly. If your opponent won't or can`t get out of the way, your super big unit will roll over him.
On the other hand consider this: If you blow a panic test, its over. If you get charged in the flank, by say a unit of dryads or squiq hoppaz, or blood hounds of Khorne, its also probably over. If I was playing Brettonians I would bait your big unit with a unit of knights errant (whould you let them charge your unit?) and if you took the bait, I`d be threatening your flank with 2 other units.
What I am trying to say is that this is an all of nothing approach. That`s why tournament players don`t play it. They play with an army that can afford to lose a unit or two. They plan to win every game, not every other one.

It will outnumber any single unit it comes across. It will outkill most units. It will still loose to Static CR much of the time. Basically it will depend on your dice. Either you will steamroll that unit, or you will miss a bunch of to hit rolls or wounding rolls and be run down by that unit.

The other issue keeping things off your flanks. 5 wide Ogres do not wheel very quick and if you execute a turn you loose that rank bonus. You could reform, but then you are not moving forward at all.

You would have only a unit of Bulls and Gnoblars to guard flanks and I don't see them doing it.

Basically it is going to be, "Look I just smashed unit after unit." or "Look the Cannon just killed 2 members of that unit and the whole thing ran away with most of my points" or maybe, "Look I just charged that Empire unit and smashed the front rank but the Detachments counter-charged my flanks and did a wound. 5 wounds and outnumber for 6 CR on my side, 1 wound + 3 ranks + banner + flank charge means 6 CR on his side. Oh look he has a musician... and I run and get rundown by a unit half my cost."

That list could be fun in a higher point game, but as an army by itself I think you would be crushed by shooting and magic.

I wish it was more viable as it is 100% the way I want to play the OK.

The unit is far too vulnerable. Sure it might kill everything it touches (if it gets the charge off), but one bad break test or panic test and you loose 85% of your army. You won't be able to manuever, and you won't be able to stop the enemy from getting flank charges (your bulls and gnoblars will not protect your flanks), so your opponent will basically get to do with your unit what (s)he pleases. For a unit like this to work, it needs to be stubborn on ld9+, and preferably have a bsb.
I'm not saying don't try it, because I'm all for new things and I'd like to see an ogre army do well without using the standard list. But I'm not expecting it to do well.

DEATHSTAR!

I love me some SLU tactics, though as noted several times the über-unit can be unwieldy and outmaneuvered with distressing easy.  That said, bravo on the list and I hope you do give it a spin to see how it does.  Take a look at my rework though, addresses some concerns people have noted:

H: Bruiser - great weapon, ha, jade lion, wyrdstone necklace = 192
H: Butcher - siegebreaker, fistful of laurels = 175
H: Butcher - bangstick = 155
C: 7 Bulls - full command, additional hand weapons = 323
C: 3 Bulls - bellower = 115
C: 20 Gnoblars = 40
-----
Total: 1000

The deathstar can now reroll panic tests, reroll 1 failed break test, and has only 1 RnF model in the front rank.  This I think is one case where taking a crusher is a good call, the enemy has to allocate wounds all over the place - and he's got 5 attaks!

- Salvage

I used to run a deathstar list and it never really worked out well for me.  I always would get flanked and would then break.

I just had another thought though.  What about a deathstar maneater unit. maybe not at 1000 points but how about at 2000?  You could make one heck of a unit and they would be stubborn. 

Keep it up though I liked the deathstar approach, however in a tourney scene here it scored fairly low comp, like below another ogres list that had two bull rhinox and was msu, where mine had 2 big units and a giant.  I think they found unit strength 30 intimidating and then realized that it's not that big of a deal when you can just run around them.

The big unit would turn (wheel) very slowly, and once you lost one model to missile fire / magic, all those points spent on models in the second rank are now essentially wasted (except for maybe getting you +1 CR for outnumber).

Don't like it at all.

The three items you must have are

Jade Lion
Fistful of Laurels
Skull Mantle

These three items help you:

Pass psychology tests
Pass break tests
Avoid getting charged.

Have had some success with an army list that had 1 large unit of IronGuts.  Your list however does not have enough other units to cover your big unit.  I also do not put my Butchers in the big unit.  My list at 2250 has 10 other units (5 bulls and 5 gnoblars) with 2 gorgers.

It seems to work best against armies that are not very agile.  Like gun lines (if terrain cooperates) and heavy infantry.

I run a big unit style army at 2250, but I'm not sure how well it would work at this point level. It would probably work better if you dropped the butchers and got some more support for that hammer unit.

Here's another shot, with ironguts and more support this time ...

H: Bruiser - great weapon, ha, jade lion, wyrdstone, luck gnoblar = 197
H: Bruiser - BSB, sword of might, ha, 2x thiefstone, luck gnoblar = 214
C: 6 Ironguts - standard, bellower = 318
C: 3 Bulls - bellower = 115
C: 3 Bulls - bellower = 115
C: 20 Gnoblar Fighters = 40
-------
999 points

Sword of Might could be a third thiefstone, or gutlord, or more weapons for the bulls (with the BSB's luck gnob).

- Salvage

Ok, well I tried it. Here's what I ran:

12 bulls, standard

bruiser, tenderiser, HA

Butcher, cookbook

Butcher, Bangstick

3 bulls (to fulfill minimum core choices)

Anyway, actually in a weird kind of way it went sort of well even though I lost. I played O&G without telling my friend what kind of list I was using. As he saw me rank them up, his only words were "man, what are you doing... <starts to put on third rank> .... dude! What are you doing?!"
Pretty much worth it just for that. Things went pretty much to plan at the beginning. I tried troll guts with the butcher without cookbook, knowing he'd dispell, then I did it successfully with the one with the cookbook but failed to save the wound (wont bother with the book in future, me thinks), used brain gobbler to panic 25 orcs off the table. He missed with his BTs and my MR 2 saw off all his magic. Finally came the charge. It was inevitable I'd be outmaneuvered so in the end I got 30 Night gobbos with warboss on pig in the face along with a pump wagon, 6 hopper in the side and a giant spider with goblin bigboss and the one hit wonder in the other side. My bruiser took the challenge from the spider bigboss, took two wounds and finished him off with 5 points of overkill. I lost only a single bull to the pump wagon thanks to regeneration but unfortunately the hoppers did better and only took 1 wound. The gobbos and warboss were nothing special...

Then came combat res. I had 7 wounds and he had 6 I think. He had 3 ranks and standard from the gobbos but I had 2 ranks, outnumber and standard too. I thought I'd won and he actually rolled his break test until we realised the hoppers were giving him flank (which did not deny ranks, but did give him +1). With a cringe I asked if he had a musician and the rest is history...

My thoughts:

Should have gone down the far flank, making it far more difficult for him to bring his whole army to bear.

Always take a goddamn bellower on such an expensive unit.

Deathstar probably can work in friendly matches if played right, although O&G is a forgiving army to try it against.

The US and Fear caused by the deathstar could play merry hell with armies less immune to psych.

Thanks for telling me about aforementioned magic items guys, I'll definitely use em next time I roll with this, although to be honest, panic really wasn't much of a problem, what with my whole army having regeneration. Though I wouldnt wanna play against dwarfs with this....

http://ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=8182.0
I wrote this a while back to introduce SLU to newer people. It may have some things you haven't thought of.