bull charges and ranks question

I'm a bit confused by the wording in the rulebook. To get strength bonuses in bull charges from having ogres behind the front rank do you need the front or even both to be full ranks. In other words, do I need 5 ogres in the front rank and then another 5 behind them to get strength 5 impact hits? Or 5+5+5 to get strength 6 etc? If not, does that mean I can have 9 ogres - 3 by 3 by 3 - giving 3 strength 6 impact hits on a bull charge?

An ogre just has to have another ogre behind him for the +1S, so e.g. if you've got a front rank of 3 bulls and one bull in the back rank, you'll get 1 S5 impact hit and 2 S4

moving this over to the rules questions page.

An ogre just has to have another ogre behind him for the +1S, so e.g. if you've got a front rank of 3 bulls and one bull in the back rank, you'll get 1 S5 impact hit and 2 S4

Additionally, if you have a 3x unit of bulls, and they do a left face and charge in the subsequent round, you have 1 bull doing an impact hit at +2 strength.

Not that big of deal, but a Tyrant with 2 bulls behind him will crush a chariot on impact with such a trick.

-Rick

have a 3x unit of bulls, and they do a left face and charge in the subsequent round, you have 1 bull doing an impact hit at +2 strength.

Not that big of deal, but a Tyrant with 2 bulls behind him will crush a chariot on impact with such a trick.

-Rick

Doesnt the front rank have to be 3 ogres wide for a bull charge to count?

Doesnt the front rank have to be 3 ogres wide for a bull charge to count?

I'll have to check again, but I thought the unit just had to have 3 Ogres, not necessarily all in the front rank.

-Rick

No your right, sorry
"any unit consisting of three or more ogre models....."
I thought it said three ogre models next to each other.

Wow, thats all pretty mad. My empire friend with his two steam tanks and 1+ AS knights is gonna be weeping pretty hard when I get my ogres up and running.

Well, there's a problem with that theory (two actually); 1)if you deal impact hits to a steam tank YOU take hits back, and they aren't weedy hits by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it a chariot so you can't auto destroy it, and 2)good luck getting the bull charge off on knights. They move faster than you, so if they don't get the charge off then they can probably move within 6" of your unit.

And three: you have  a flank the size of Texas, so they'll probably flank charge you hard.

And three: you have  a flank the size of Texas, so they'll probably flank charge you hard.

That's not really that big of a problem though. Sure, they get +1 to CR, but you'll have all 3 ogres to strike back with (assuming you survive the charge) But yeah, it would be best to use this formation to slam into a stuck chariot flank where you will likely be able to overrun and improve your position for the next turn.

-Rick

Don't forget the free reform if you win combat, you can then expand your front to 3 wide again.


KKKKK
__O__
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__O__

KKKKK
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I can actually see this working like this:

KKKKK_____
__________
__________
__________
OOO___OOO_

Charge left unit in and march right unit up alongside and then turn using a 1/4 of your move.

KKKKK_OOO_
_OOO______

Get stuck in and next turn flank charge with the heavy impact hit. This would only work where your flanks would be covered.

Would the heavy impact hit be worth the 6 extra attacks?

Heavy impact hit against Empire knights: 0.83333333 wounds and 0.416666666 unsaved wounds.

Bull attacks: 3 hits, 2 wounds, and 0.6666666 unsaved wounds.

Irongut attacks: 3 hits, 2.499999 wounds, and 1.2499999 unsaved wounds.

Yes, you could do the conga charge, but why would it be good? You expose your flanks and do less damage and gain no benefit.

Would the heavy impact hit be worth the 6 extra attacks?

Heavy impact hit against Empire knights: 0.83333333 wounds and 0.416666666 unsaved wounds.

Bull attacks: 3 hits, 2 wounds, and 0.6666666 unsaved wounds.

Irongut attacks: 3 hits, 2.499999 wounds, and 1.2499999 unsaved wounds.

Yes, you could do the conga charge, but why would it be good? You expose your flanks and do less damage and gain no benefit.

Depending on your position, it might be much more difficult to get the 3-wide frontage into a position such that the knights flank is in your charge arc.

Also, the primary use for this is still going to be chariots. Any character with 3 bulls/IG behind them doing a conga line charge into chariots is going to be auto-hitting at S7+, which means poof! no more chariot. And if you have the Bull gut, there's 2 chariots gone in the blink of an eye.

Definitely a situational trick, but if the opportunity arises, be ready to use it.

-Rick

The part about killing two chariots is only useful against Tomb Kings, or players who put their chariots in base contact with each other (but I can´t fathom why someone would do that when they see a conga line coming).

It is EXTREMELY situational, to the point of worthlessness. The only time it would be good would be against a chariot which is already engaged (otherwise it will just move out of your minuscule line of sight). I don´t get the character part, because I almost always see characters with great weapons or the Siegebreaker.

Ehh, I play against TK often enough, we have one who is playing TK in this season of the league and 2 more with TK armies that they rotate in for fun. So yeah, 2 impact hits at S7+ is something I keep in mind.

The situation came up from someone here a week or two ago where he had to left face to get between two terrain features, combined with an overrun by and enemy chariot left him in the perfect position to execute the conga line charge.

Call it worthless if you want, but if I can use a facing movement to make that pope-mobile think twice before charging across the field, it may have already done all that I need it to.

As for characters, many people run 3 butchers. And while 1 will likely have the siege breaker, the other two will likely have scrolls, bangstick, and/or some other assorted goody. With no great weapons on the butchers, they aren't much of a threat to chariots. But with a simple change in facing, you have that S7 impact hit. It doesn't even have to be a character, any 4 Ogres will do. But the typical build is MSU of 3 models, so the typical 4-model unit is going to be 3 Bulls/IG and a character.

-Rick

Or, three Maneaters who had taken something like BoH instead of GW. 4 naked bulls who need to kill a chariot. A location where you can't wheel to get your charge off next turn but you have a flank offered to you(say after a pursuit) if you can just go sideways next turn.

This isn't for use in ideal situations, but then again, how often does your opponent give you ideal situations? Never if they can help it, right? This is just one more surprise tactic that opponents might not expect.

Yes, yes, obviously when you have just performed a turn and a chariot is right in front of you, it´s perfect, but that has never happened to me yet...

So, how often do you do take the Bullgut? How often do your characters have other weapons then the usual great weapon?

The War Alter thing may be a good idea though. Just pray that it fails the 4+ Ward save.

As for ideal situations versus strange situations, this is putting yourself into a strange and awkward formation and giving your opponent one turn to react to it.

If it works for you, fine, but I cannot see the benefit except in the very rare situations when it is useful.

I'm not saying you guys have to use it. I'm not even saying I'm going to use it. I said it could be done, it has been done, and the results can be quite beneficial.

If you see the opportunity to use it, know that it is a viable and legal maneuver, and use it to your advantage. If you don't see an opportunity to use it, don't try to force it in.

-Rick

Well, then we agree! It obviously can be done, and it is good to keep it in your mind (deep in) if the opportunity arises.

Exactly... keep it in mind. Also, don't forget that while your opponent might wonder why your 4 Bulls just turned 90 Degs, but he might be so busy keeping that chariot away from charge range of your characters, which he might know have the chance to be Str 7 very easily, that he ignores the formation change from the Bulls and gives you that bizarre chance of pulling this off.

True, but I would rather not base my tactics on the possibility that my opponent is ignorant. I find that the greatest success is to be had if you assume that he sees through your every move, which means you will never be caught off guard yourself.

And I used to play Chess with a couple of guys who had been regional champions. I never won but I frustrated the hell out of them. Why? There was occasionally no logical sense to a move I made, it didn't gain me anything, but didn't offer up any openings either. Since it wasn't bettering my position significantly it was totally unlooked for from my opponent. Yes, they could easily come up with a counter, considering the level they played at, but it would often throw their next 3-4 moves out the window forcing players used to taking 3-5 second turns to take 35-40 second turns. 

Yes, a competent general plans out his responses and moves, but as we know, a plan rarely survives contact with the enemy.

Over estimating your opponent can be as bad as underestimating them. Ask my old chess partners. There were far to many times they figured they had missed something and I was being devastatingly brilliant when really I just knew it would throw off their laid out plans and put me in no immediate danger.

That´s true... When I play chess I hate to face those players who almost seem to play at random.

However, in this scenario we are not doing something random, and the opponent may know about the formation by for example reading about it on a forum like this.