General 7th edition discussion

These are rumors I got from the Chateau Montreford site (a bretonian site).
Some of these have already been talked about, some are totally new, to me, at least.

1.) Judging by all previous years the release will be autumn/winter '06.

2.) Cavalry and chariots must charge their minimum move distance to be able to claim any bonuses (eg. lances, spears and impact hits) like the Ogre Bull charge, or may be a straight 6".

3.) Fast Cavalry do not negate rank bonuses.

4.) Skirmishers fear ranked infantry.

5.) Magic users can only use the dice they generate for their own spells. the 2 army standard dice can be used by any wizard.

6.) The maximum amount of dice used by a wizard has increased by 1. ie. a level 2 can use up to four to cast a spell.

7.) The 'Parry' bonus for a shield and hand weapon can only be claimed by models with a ws of 4 or more.

8.) The unit that has the widest frontage in a close combat engagement may claim a +1 to their combat resolution.

9.) The lores will also be carefully reviewed and probably revised.

10.) Terrible misscast table (if you roll a double 1 on the new misscast table it will be "bye bye for you mage") .

11.) Halberds to become armour piercing

12.) Auto hit weapons only hit skirmishers on a roll of 4+ (per shot)

14.) I've heard that the rules regarding "panic" will be steamlined, so that it won't be such hastle to remember whether you need to be 4" away if your mates are dead, or 6" away i they're runing away.

15.) Spears will act like Brettonian defensive stakes and remove any charge bonus.

cheers

2) Seems fine, might possibly nerf cavalry-over power a bit.

3) Yep, nothing to say about this.

4) Don't they already? Or actually fear?

5) Good. This should negate some of the heavy magic-armies, where some of the magicians are there only to bring the dice.

6) Um. Don't know about that. Well, if they keep same rules for miscasting, it's fine.

7) As if infantry wasn't bad before?

Fine.

9) -

10) Yes! I've been waiting for this!

11) Good.

12) Ok, but not so radical rules-change.

14 (where's the 13? ))  Might work.

15) Yes!

It sounds good to me. All but needing WS 4 to claim the armor bonus form HW Shild. Thant kinda nerfs IF LA.

In the bret forum, these news were seen very badly:
cavalry armies will loose a lot, if not most of its advantages, and defense stakes will make bret bowmen less particular.

The magic modifications are made to stop magepower armies, but I don't think that this is the way to achieve that.
cheers

Be aware, though, that while most of these rumours will be from sample rules sets that playtesters have been testing, not all will make it through.

I have heard 'confirmation' on two new rules (the 'wizard's own' power dice one and one about rank bonus being 5-wide, rather than 4-wide) from someone who had apparently seen the first proofs (or a document of similar authority). I personally refuse to believe anything until I see it in print (although the power dice one is looking increasingly unanimous...).

5 wide?  To include 25mm base troops?  OMG, they will have to come out with TWO standard movement tray widths!  lol

And ogres are definitely doomed to never get rank bonuses now.  

but 'the widest unit gets +1 CR'  is good news for the ogres!!

I've heard these romours:

1) monsters do NEVER get any rank bonuses
2) longbows are S4 and armour piercing, so are crossbows
3) none of us will ever see a 7th edition! we'll all die from ¨Birds-sneeze¨ (spelling) before it's released!

and a question: will fear-causing skirmishers (Dryads, ghouls etc.) fear ranked infantry?

If they do use the "widest gets +1 CR", then that further nurfs single model super-mini's (which I like).  Actually, as I think about it, there would be too many "what if" situations to explain, so I bet that one doesn't make it.

5 wide 25mm troop units would be wider than the typical 3x1 ogre formation.

I think the idea of the 5-wide thing is to stop people getting full rank bonus with elites. It makes horde-style armies _way_ stronger.

First, there is no way to absolutely confirm or deny this entire list of changes. Or any other such list. So large grains of salt all around.

Second, assuming all of the changes posted here are accurate, here's my 5-second take on each:

#1 - Release date - this has actually been semi-confirmed by GW (it's in their Q3 release slot - _might_ get pushed to Q4 if there are rollout issues, but we're looking at the second half of the year regardless).  

#2 - Cavalry movement on the charge - this would impact cavalry/chariot tactics somewhat, but remember - unlike the Ogres, many Cav units/Chariots have M8-9. This mitigates the minimum move distance somewhat, especially if there is a fixed 6" "minimum move".

That said, this should nerf Brets and chariot-heavy armies to some degree. Which, in turn, puts into question whether they'd want to nerf one of their better-selling (due to its point-and-click nature) armies.

Zero effect on Skaven, Lizards and Wood Elves (the top-10 spots at UKGT finals).

#3 - Fast cav and rank bonuses - meh. Dark Elves will complain, and I forget whether Wild Riders are fast cav or not. Otherwise...

#4 - Skirmishers Fearing ranked infantry - this is a rule already in place in Warhammer Ancients (to a degree). Zero effect on Lizards (Skirmishers are shooters), WEs (shooters and Immune to Psych) and Skaven (shooters and Immune to Psych). Middenheim should feel the pain (no GW-armed Skirmisher charges...), as would Ghoul-heavy armies to a degree.

Very curious to see if this affects flyer units, e.g. Pegasus Knights.

#5 - Mages use only own dice - this is possibly the most significant change thus far - no magic phases with 2 5-dice spells anymore. That said, it will not impact Skaven (lots of Engineers); HEs (lots of Level 2s and Bounds); Undead (lots of level 2-3s and TK Incantations); Slann (especially 2-gen Slann), who's either alone or with Skink Heavens mages; defensive mages (e.g. WE level 3s with 4 scrolls); or Tzeentch (lots of PDs not mage-specific).

Level 4+2+2 setups will still work because the Level 4 can do a 2-dice/4-dice or a single 6-dice spell while the Level 2s spam magic missiles.

Seriously, at first blush, the one thing this does eliminate is the prospect of one level 4 spamming 4-5 dice spells in a single magic phase. So I see this as a refinement of the magic phase, but not a "nerf" to any degree. 10-PD armies will still roll, if set up correctly (e.g. Slann + 2 Heavens Skinks = 2 2-dice reroll spells or Forked Lightnings drawing out the dispels, then the Slann gets to work). You spread the work around, but the killer Magic is still there (unless they _really_ revise the Lores).

#6 - Max PD level increased by 1 - well, I always wanted to see someone throw a 6-dice spell. I mean, this is more of a benefit to Level 2 casters (multiples thereof) - e.g. Necros throwing down 2 4-dice Raise Dead spells.

#7 - HW/Shield bonus only to WS4+ models - this nerfs (in order of importance) Skeleton Infantry, Saurus infantry, Ogres. Ogres don't use it much, so whatever. Skeleton Infantry will now switch to Spears (universally so), as will (probably) Saurus blocks (which were _so_ important to Skink-heavy armies to begin with). Elves/Dwarfs are all WS4+ (ditto for Chaos). Humans...well, Empire still has its Swordsmen.

Smells like a blatant attempt to sell more spearmen to me, frankly.

#8 - Wider front = +1CR - this might be significant - it seems they're encouraging wider units to take back some of the advantages of Hordes...that said, this benefits Orcs and Saurus and 6-wide Knights more than anyone else.

Also unclear of how this would work in multiple charges (counter-intuitive - 2 3-wide Bret lances slam into a 5-wide unit of humans - and humans still get +1CR??).

#9 - Lores revised - we've heard _that_ one before. Great if they do it, but if I know GW they'll just power up the non-Life/Heavens/Shadows lores some (instead of powering Life/Heavens down a bit).

#10 - Terrible misscast table - Orcs already deal with this. Slann don't care. I mean, it's incremental impact, but nothing serious.

#11 - Armour piercing halberds - ok, I guess that's meaningful. Given that only what, 4 troop types in the game can take them (and 2 of them are Elven Rares)?

#12 - Auto hit weapons hit skirmishers on 4+ - are you @*#$& kidding me? This is supposed to make anyone playing against Lizards or WEs feel better how? Are we _trying_ to get people to field Skink Armies of Doom now???

#13 - what happened to #13??

#14 - Panic rules "streamlined" - ok, that's fine. As long as they decide to abolish Panic altogether.

#15 - Spears as defensive stakes - ok, so Spearmen don't suck anymore. This won't help against Skaven, WEs or Lizards, but will stop Brets and Goblin/Beast Chariot armies. Also makes people buy more human/Elven Spearmen, but not sure if that offsets the other disadvantages of those armies.

Bottom line - the more things change, the more they stay the same. That's my jaded opinion and I'm sticking to it until I have the actual 7ed rulebook in my hands (to confirm or refute my suspicions).

If it is true, it's good.
I think,that it's all good ideas.( for realistic in WFB)

If fast cav cant remove ranks my DE are screwd. No fun at all. This is the only thing I really have a problem with since it affects the only really good unit in one of the worst armys out there.

Overall I like most of the stuff just #3 I'm having problems with. And #11 is something my 20 Strong Black guards have been waiting for.

#8 will rock with my two 28 strong 7*4 pikemen units. ah, 6CR to start with is always nice

Some of these sound good (like #2, 5, 9, 10, and 12), but some would be terrible. Giving everybody the Brettonian pike bonus would be over powering (especially if everyone takes spears because they don't get the 'parry' bonus), and having armor piercing halberds would be silly, the guys who can take halberds already get at least -1 enemy armor save because of the strength bonus. They'd be great weapons that don't strike last.

yea if number 11 is true, there are going to be a lot more black guard running around

Everyone DOES have access to the pike bonus.  Just take some Dogs of War.

These are rumors I got from the Chateau Montreford site (a bretonian site).
Some of these have already been talked about, some are totally new, to me, at least.

1.) Judging by all previous years the release will be autumn/winter '06.

2.) Cavalry and chariots must charge their minimum move distance to be able to claim any bonuses (eg. lances, spears and impact hits) like the Ogre Bull charge, or may be a straight 6".

3.) Fast Cavalry do not negate rank bonuses.

4.) Skirmishers fear ranked infantry.

5.) Magic users can only use the dice they generate for their own spells. the 2 army standard dice can be used by any wizard.

6.) The maximum amount of dice used by a wizard has increased by 1. ie. a level 2 can use up to four to cast a spell.

7.) The 'Parry' bonus for a shield and hand weapon can only be claimed by models with a ws of 4 or more.

8.) The unit that has the widest frontage in a close combat engagement may claim a +1 to their combat resolution.

9.) The lores will also be carefully reviewed and probably revised.

10.) Terrible misscast table (if you roll a double 1 on the new misscast table it will be "bye bye for you mage") .

11.) Halberds to become armour piercing

12.) Auto hit weapons only hit skirmishers on a roll of 4+ (per shot)

14.) I've heard that the rules regarding "panic" will be steamlined, so that it won't be such hastle to remember whether you need to be 4" away if your mates are dead, or 6" away i they're runing away.

15.) Spears will act like Brettonian defensive stakes and remove any charge bonus.

cheers

Man these rules suck!

Good thing I started ogres rather than WE.

To teh person who asked: yes, wild riders are fast cav.

Looks good otehrwise. I like the +1 CR for wider frontage, makes  a NG horde even better....

To be fair, the rumour is that you not only have to have the widest frontage, you must also have at least one model in your fighting rank who is not in base contact at all, so with a equal base width you need a formation three models wider than the opponent.

So they're basically aiming for people to run at each other with 8-wide formations??

This is beginning to sound like that 5th Edition "a unit of 18 Knights Panther would be unstoppable!!" tactica - years _before_ Outnumbering was introduced.

I'm still a bit incredulous at the way they're pushing halberds. Spears are at least a cross-army phenomenon. Pushing halberds is basically saying "please take those Phoenix Guard and Halberdier boxes off our hands...please...". There are 7 units in the game that can use it (Halberdiers, CWs, Bestigors, Paymaster's Bodyguard, Black Guard, Phoenix Guard, Temple Guard), a majority of them with org-chart restrictions. Most are seldom seen for reasons that have nothing to do with their halberds (e.g. Phoenix Guard). What do we do? We make halberds armour piercing, because that will make those Phoenix Guard models just fly off the shelves...

Have they even _played_ the game lately?

There are 7 units in the game that can use it (Halberdiers, CWs, Bestigors, Paymaster's Bodyguard, Black Guard, Phoenix Guard, Temple Guard)

Tal, you forgot Bret Men at arms.
Infact, in the bret forum, there was an issue regarding this: if M@A actually have halbreds, and wil get the armour piercing, or if they have stakes-that-work-like-halbreds, that don't get armour piercing.
cheers

@ Kyte: I doubt that longbows will become s4- one of the wood elf bonuses is that they're s4 at short range and if that rule came into effect, the wood elve would have the WORST longbow skills, not the BEST. Armour piercing makes sense though.

I agree with Tal. Nobody uses Halberdiers. But it's not because the halberd sucks, it is because for the same points you can get +1 WS, +1 I, +1 AS in close combat by taking a Swordsman.

I don't think this proposed rule would be too unabalanced on a human, but on anything above S3 it gets a bit ridiculous (S4 becomes S5, armour piercing means there is a -3 AS: that is just insane!).

Meh, we have used AP on halberds over here for more than a year now and still people go for other options.

So they're basically aiming for people to run at each other with 8-wide formations??

Probably not (amongst other things there is not usually much point to an 8-wide unit if the opponent has a unit wider than 5), but amongst other effects it means that a normal enemy unit charging an ogre unit 4 models wide now has to choose between wether to engage 3 Ogres and give his opponent the +1 CR bonus or engage all 4 Ogres and let the opponent have the extra Attacks.