Is it worth to take a tyrant? (heavy dwarf beating tactics)

dont think I'm crazy, but against dwarfs I dont think itsworth its point value to use a tyrant in your list! a well equipped tryant can easily be 280-310pts, a bruiser armed for sniping is only about 170 pts, that means that if you chooses a bruiser instead of a tyrant you'll safe 110-140pts and that is almost enough for a rhinox rider. I prefer using this armylist in a 2500pts game vs dwarfs:

Bruiser, Brace of handguns, ironfist, Hheavy armour, wyrdstone necklace. 170pts

Hunter, Longstrider, 2 sabretusks. 210pts

Butcher, 2 gnoblars, halfling cookbook. 165pts

Butcher, 2 gnoblars, spangleshard. 170pts

3 Bulls, command, ironfists, Light armour. 179pts

3 Bulls, command, 2 hand weapons. 167pts

3 Bulls, Ironfists, light armour. 129pts

3 Bulls, 2 hand weapons. 117pts

3 Ironguts. 144pts

3 Ironguts. 144pts

10 Trappers, champion. 64pts

2 Leadbelchers. 110pts

2 Leadbelchers. 110pts

Scraplauncher. 165pts

3 Maneaters, heavy armour, Braces of handguns. 270pts

Thunderlord on rhinox, heavy armour, ironfist. 185pts.

TOTAL= 2499pts

Tactics:
Assign the bruiser to the Maneaters, their primary funktion is to snipe war machine crews.

Use your Butchers to cast trollguts on the thunderlord, the maneaters and the Ironguts and cast toothcracker on the bulls´.

A Dwarf player that isn't used to face rhinox riders will usually consentrate most misile fire on your thunderlord (dont fear for it, with a toughnes of 5, 5 wounds and a 3+ armour save and regeneration from the trollguts it isn't easy to kill). If it survives until turn 3 it will be able to charge and challenge the dwarf general and his unit/anvil of doom and possibly wound or kill him, but NOTE: a lone thunderlord is mostly meant as a sacrificial unit.

Use the trappers to get rid of more crews and the hunter to do the same. with a little luck and a good deployment, it isn't hard to kill the crew of 2 or 3 war machines per turn, one bor the maneaters with the bruiser, one for the trappers and one for the tusks!

use the scraplauncher to get rid of those pesky slayers and nasty hammerers!

with the thunderers and quarrelers occupied at shooting the Thunderlord, the bulls can (most of the times) engage them in not more than 3 turns.

Let the ironguts take care of the more heavy infantry units such as ironbreakers and longbeards.

now you're mabe thinking: thats quite good Kyte, but what about the GYROCOPTERS! Just relax, the leadbelchers can easily deal with those mechanical birds!

try it and you will at least get a solid victory!

A lot of people wouldn't agree on casting Trollguts on the Thunderlord, and even if you where I don't think it is applicable, because tell me if im wrong here, but are the 5 wounds notthose of the Rhinox? In this case it would definatley not work, as these spells only affect Ogres, and a rhinox sure ain't an Ogre.

Any way, apart from that it sounds good, but I'd rather take some Gorgers instead of the maneaters, giving maneaters Pistols seems a waste to me.

Anyhow just my two pennies worth.

before i came up with this list, my dad and his Old-school dwarfs always defeated me, but after i began using this list i've played two games and got thw massaces. so the list definately works. and I'm sure that rhinox riders can benefit from gutmagic! there is a thread on it on GW's official warhammer forum

Can you post a link to that forum... I think it's a very cheesey tactic to try and play as it quite clearly states Gut magic only works on Ogres.

No! i do not have a link, i dont even have a user on that forum, i just stumbled over it, when i was syrfing, but it's quite logical that rhinox riders can benefit from gutmagic becaus at last its an ogre on a rhinox and the toughnes and wounds arenot individual for the ogre and the rhinox, it's like the same as casting a spell that benefits a character, but not its mount and unit!

Okay, just checked, and the wounds are situated in the Riders stats... Maybe, just maybe this is okay then. Still dubious as to wether people up at my club will agree though.  

I hope so!!! :wink:

Just spoke to two of them, one says he'd allow it, the other says it's not right ????????

I'm so confused, what to tell them...    Submit or be trampled!!!

It's allowed at my club.  Bullgorger only effects the rider's str of course, but toothcracker & trollguts are both allowed, as it's a joint stat.

Rhinoxen are just mounts like any other mount... meaner, but no different rules wise.

I can't seem to find a specific ruling, but I believe that Gut Magic spells can only be cast on units listed as ogre units, and the rhinox riders are not listed as such. Guess what! We need an official FAQ!

It's allowed at my club.  Bullgorger only effects the rider's str of course, but toothcracker & trollguts are both allowed, as it's a joint stat.

Rhinoxen are just mounts like any other mount... meaner, but no different rules wise.

thats Exactly what was written on GW's forum!!

Think I'll print of this discussion and take it up...

This list against dwarfs? You must be nuts...

A dwarf player who knows he will face ogres is likely to bring in some heavy artillery because:

1) Ogres have M6, so there's no reason for trying to outmaneuvre them with M3.
2) The dwarf player wont have to do much to get his units into combat with yours, since ogres like combat.

Your units of 3 only need one casualty, and then they have to take a panic test. And as the highest LD in the army is 8 because of your lack of tyrant, you are actually quite likely to fail.
Any dwarf player who sees all your units of 3 will rather cause panic here than to kill that thunderlord, which is far easier to kill through static combat resoloution.
Also the Scraplauncher die easily to a runed up bolt thrower. Your idea of sniping warmachine crew is good, but remember that dwarf machines and the anvil can now be entreched, meaning that you are -2 to hit when shooting. Not good when you are a low WS ogre...

I'm not saying it's a bad list against dwarfs (okay actually I am), but even though the idea with the bait thunderlord is good, I wouldn't trust units of 3 to stand against dwarf artillery.

Cheers, Meatfist

I just got 2 straight masacres against my fathers dwarves, so its not a bad list!

How was your fathers army?

Any decent dwarf general would be able to, if not beat, then at least achieve a far better result then a massacre against this list.

Cheers, Meatifst

We do not have the new army book and Armybuilder haven't been updated to include the new list, so we used the old list.

Runelord with various runes and anvil of doom

thane with toughnes 6 due to multiple of a pesky rune and great weapon

Engeener with a +1wound rune

12 or 16 crossbowmen

15 thunderers

25 warriors with full command and great weapons

15 slayers and 5 giantslayers in one big unit

19 hammerers with full command and runic banner (The thane lead this unit)

gyrocopter

cannon

stone thrower

organ gun

something like that

Okay if he used the old book, it it perfectly understandable that he got massacred.

Your list would eat 6th ed. dwarfs as a light snack. New dwarfs are i different story though. I think you will find it harder to win against them.

Cheers, Meatfist

The dice spirits of the Maw must of been with you
 
And methinks 2 wins does not "prove" this list.... do it 10 times... then maybe - but tactics are so different for so many players..... way to many varriables.

Glad you got some payback on the stunties tho - running them under boot is always a good thing.

I have to say that the dwarf list doesn't look too good. Engineers were regarded as crap i 6.0 ed, the same was the Organ Gun and more thunderers were often prefered over x-bowmen.

I won't argue to the effective/ineffectiveness of this army list as I've never used it, however, I do like to keep an open mind and to help others do the same, aka I am a devils advocate .  It may have worked well against your father but that is only one player who may be used to doing things one way and was unprepared for the new list.  It may also be that your father was choosing to shoot the wrong thing like Jog said.  On the other hand, your father may be very experienced and Jog is just plain wrong and could be surprised with the results if he were to use this list.  Many things can affect how good a game will go (terrain, deployment, etc.) and of course the players skill, and perhaps this army works well for you because of how you play it and wouldn't for Jog because of how he would play it.  To your credit Kyte, there are alot of units in your army and even if someone were to shoot your units to cause panic tests, you wouldn't fail most of them, a fleeing unit of 2 ogres won't cause a unit of 3 to panic, and when you do engage in CC, you can combine charges well with so many units.  Both of you have good points, but my suggestion for a good solution would be this.  Play your father again, but this time advise him to do as Jog suggests, this way you can see if your two wins were because of an error made in your dad's stretegy.  Maybe you will still win with a massacre, maybe you'll get massacred, or perhaps it will be a minor win/loss.  I think you should try this, and then you can see how your army will work against different tactics.  If nothing else, one of you should learn something.  I'd love to hear how that game would turns out, and if you do it, then please post it on this page and we can see how things went different.  Oh, and btw, congratulations on your victories, it's always nice to hear of others success!