Sex and the Maw Pit (and beyond)

Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included.

A quote from Karl Narx of Altdorf, a nineteenth century Imperial historian and philosopher.  For this and other statements Karl was convicted of treason and heresy a ordered burnt at the stake.  Such was the danger of his writings that the four great chaos powers submitted Amicus Briefs arguing for the most painful of executions.  Still his teachings continued to have adherents, particularly throughout Kislev until fading into irrelevance at the end of the 20th century.

The quote is provided to to open discussion on the issues of females in the Warhammer world.  This is partly inspired by the figures of Vichor and DontheDime, but I would like to see the discussion include Ogres and go beyond to other races.  In a world of nonstop war, each race's approach to the role of women in society and to child rearing, will have a profound impact on their very survival.

With respect to Ogres, I think it is relatively easy to assume that they would be an integral part of the tribe fighting power.  In a society where one's status is influenced by how much one can eat and how loudly one can belch, the logical assumption would be that the female Ogre can keep up with all but the most disgusting of their male companions.  Likewise, the relative small size of the tribes and the sheer bulk of a female Ogre compared with their likely foes, argues for the fact that they are need to fight. 

Given the approval of the figures mentioned above, I do not think that there is controversy concern Ogres.

But what of other races?  It is hard to imagine Malekith letting Dark Elf women off the hook with respect to military duty just so they can shop for Prada drink Latte's at  Starbucks.  Witch Elves aside, Elf females may be exempt for corsair duty in order to raise the next generation, But it would seem certain that all would be impressed into service should one of the cities be threatened.

With High Elf females, Prada and Latte's are certainly more likely.  An yet with the "dying race" concept, how can they justify exempting 50% of the population from military training?  For all branches of Elves, it appears that child birth is a rare event and child rearing a tiny portion of the Elve's life.   

Humans have a far shorter life span and child rearing takes a much greater effort.  Women in the ranks of the Imperial military would be the extreme exception.  Still if I were a minor noble responsible for guarding a village on the edge of the Drawled, The thought of providing weapons and rudimentary training to  the woman of the village has a logical  appeal.  Who else will fight more fiercely than a mother to protect her young?

However, the humans have a far more pressing problem.  The T3 WS3 light armored humans drop like flies in battle.  After an event like the Storm of Chaos, their must be hundreds of thousands of widows and orphans across the Empire.  Not only do they need to be taken care of, but a young widow is no longer producing the next generation of cannon fodder.  Although the Empire is modeled after a northern European society, does polygamy exist, either as an official policy, or unofficially with a wink from the powers that be?

There are additional questions concerning other races, but I just wanted to open the conversation.

With respect to Ogres; are there female Ironguts? Hunters?, Butchers? Bruisers & Tyrants?

As to Ogres, it's unfortunate that GW hasn't adressed females, at all. I'm going with the thinking that Ogre females don't march to war much. This is assuming Ogres, while being migratory, have a central cave or home base they visit regularly, especially during the coldest winter months. And because of how long an Ogre's gestation period must be, I'd assume the mothers generally have pretty strong maternal instincts. I'd say they stay at home, but are by no means any less capable in combat than the males, and form a very strong defensive force. We've seen a female model (the man eater), and I think there is a good chance of all female tribes surviving in the Mountains (Vichor and DontheDime come to mind).
I'm pretty sure, not 100% sure, but pretty sure that somewhere in the Helf fluff it says both men and women march to war. Our human eyes just can't tell the difference under all that armor. And I believe a good number of Welf models are female.
As for humans, I think it's much the same as it was 400 years ago; women stay at home, men go to war. And that only changes in extreme circumstances, or with revolutionaries like Joan of Arc.
Orc's don't have females, Beastmen are wild cards on the reproduction issue, and Dwarf women are either bearded as well and/or stay at home.

a full and interesting discussion on the role of women in ogre society was had a few months back - I'll try and dig out a link for you guys soon so you can take a good look

Orc's don't have females

 

Well, orcs have those terrifying models, but as fungi they'll reproduce via spores, not via the beast with two backs.

I know that orcs are fungi in 40k, but can someone point me in the direction of a WHFB reference that says similar?  Just curiosity on my part....

I'm not really familiar with any WHFB fluff that specifically states the same, with the fungus and stuff. I'm pretty sure it's just generally accepted as the same.

There's nothing odd about women being a relative rarity in WHFB, since the game is about war, and men more often than not are better build to acustomed warfare than women. That being said, WHFB is of course (as it always is one might add) different due to the multitude of non-human races existing in the warhammer world. Here's my saying on the role of women in the warhammer world, sorted on a few of the major races:

Humans: Their role is basically the same as historical women - i.e. while the might rule and posses important offices, they don't parcitipate directly in war. Of course there are a few "offs", such as the Sisters of Sigmar and Joan of Arc-like types such as Repanse de Lyonesse, but it remains rare.

Elves: The background of the asrai and druchii specifically state that women parcitipate in war on the same level as men. Also when it comes to magic, the female sex seems to take precedence over the male: WE handmaidens of Ariel are told often to be more powerful than the male counterparts, and Morathi basically created Dark Magic. Also, only females are allowed to study sorcery in Naggaroth, but that's more likely due to Mally being jealous than to a difference in skill. Asur are a bit different. Their women do parcitipate in warfare and magic, but not on the same level as with DE and WE. I can't support with a quote, but I'm quite sure that somewhere it says that the asur revere and protect their females to an extent where they more often than not refrain from goin to war. Not sure on this though.

Dwarfs: What I said before about HE is definitely true for dwarfs. Dwarf women do exist, but the males protect and revere them, and only rarely they are seen by other races. It is also rare that a dawi kvinn takes to war, but when it does happen, the throng fights fiercely to protect her from harm.

Ogres: As ogres somewhat mirror the ancient primeval civilisations, I'd imagine that ogre females are revered in the same was as women were revered in ancient times; i.e. as a mother. My guess is that they don't posses the same hunting instinct as the male ogres, but rather a mother instinct that evolves around protection of family etc. (much like beasts).

Just what I could think of now.

Cheers

It's hard to find, but in the big book, and I can't quote a page right now because I don't have it on me, it mentions orc spores invading the planet at some point, possibly by hitch hiking a ride on the Old Ones' ships.

I know that orcs are fungi in 40k, but can someone point me in the direction of a WHFB reference that says similar?  Just curiosity on my part....

WHFB and 40k are not compatible, although there are similarities between the two systems. As far as I'm concerned, official GW WHFB background sources deal with the orgins of orcs and goblins to a very limited extent, and to my information none of these mention that orcs are fungi. There might be some information to get in WHRPG, but my knowlegde there is limited, so I wouldn't know about that.

Cheers.

See above.

Ah I didn't see your post there.

You are right; at page 124 of the BRB it says:

At some point, the Orcs arrived. Quite probably their insidious spores were unwittingly introduced to the world by the star vessels of the Old Ones [...]

This does mention spores, which links to the fungi theory. I stand corrected.

Cheers.

Thanks for finding that quote Jog. Kind of finalizes the "Orcs ain't Orks" argument. Funny that no one on Da Warpath has read that page.

thanks guys

Thanks for finding that quote Jog. Kind of finalizes the "Orcs ain't Orks" argument. Funny that no one on Da Warpath has read that page.

What's BRB? Doesn't finalize anything. Orcs have females, there's even a picture in an old Inferno! of an Orc village with a female with infant in tow. Until schizophrenic gynophobic GW messed with the background, Orks had females. You can't advance a sentient species with asexual reproduction. No reason for women going to war, unless a necessity borne of desperation. Why does the Ogre Female Maneater need a false beard? Bulls are the ones that wear the gutplates and do all the fighting, with the odd wanderlust female.

If the Great Maw is so revered, what about a Great Mother type of figure for female ogres?  Something like the old Earth Mother statues that were found in ancient Aegean and Eastern Med. areas (or all around the world actually, I just remember the Minoan ones best).  I think it would be an interesting note to the ogre society that you have the Great Maw, unquenchable hunger and the Great Ogre Mother with a never ending production of milk from mammary glands sustaining life.  Could there be a whole different thought process for female ogres if this were the case?


Below is a link to a picture and a brief description if you want to know what I am talking about.
http://www.museumstorecompany.com/product_info.php?products_id=2046


Thanks,
JC

The Ork spore theory kinda works in 40K to explain how so many planets are colonized by such a mentally deficient race, but even then why do the Orks command their own ships when launching a Waugh?

For the longest period of time GW maintained that 40K and WFB were completely separated, but they seem to have forgot the party line.  I don't like the fungal theory.  Why do so many tribes live in arid locations, the Badlands, the slopes of the Worlds Edge Mountains, etc.  It does explain Night Goblins and Squigs, but why should the NG's ever want to leave their nice moist caves?  

Leaving aside our green skinned friends, what of the other races.  Skaven fluff clearly states that the females are huge bloated breeding and nursing machines.  Rising to the top of Skaven society gives one the "dubious pleasure" of breeding with one of these things.  Still this makes sense for a hoard army.  They ramp up breeding as fast as the food supply allows.  It has an advantage in a world of incessant warfare.

Chaos in all of it's forms seems to be exempt from most rules.  Beasts may just as well develop from corrupted humans as being bred in the Drakwald.  In "Paths of the Dead" there is a description of a temple where the Warriors winter and mate with priestesses.  The more accomplished the warrior the more opportunities are available.

The Undead are even more exempt.

The Bretonnians present an interesting case.  In the mode of 1200-1400 century French background, one could expect the nobles to take advantage of the perks of their office and exercise their seignorial rights with the peasant lasses toiling on the  manor.  The opportunity clearly exists, and the long term result would improve the overall fighting quality of the population as a whole.  Yet such is the antipathy that Bretonnian nobility holds for the peasants who support their society, perhaps their lances loose it's spring at the mere thought of such an encounter?  

With respect to Jog; I see Ogre society as being far more primitive, akin to hunter-gathering humans.  The difference is that they are not that interested in berries or tubers (if one really has a hankering for a berry, send a Gnobler.  At least he has a fighting chance against a berry.  But I still give odds on the berry) but in lots of lots of meat.

In that respect, Cows are just as useful as Bulls in breaking open a tasty trade caravan wagon.  On other argument for sexual equality among Ogres, is the fact that Ogres have an inexhaustible supply of child care.  Mom nurses the little tyke several times a day, then hands him or her over to those Gnoblers that survived the encounter with the berry.

Now I think its fair to say that long expeditions might have a higher ration of bulls then a local action, but if a full fledged migration is underway,  Bulls and Cows would equally share in the fun.  With respect to Ironguts, Bruisers, etc, I would argue that it is the very rare female who would stake out a role in these positions.

Just my humble opinion.

What's BRB? Doesn't finalize anything. Orcs have females, there's even a picture in an old Inferno! of an Orc village with a female with infant in tow. Until schizophrenic gynophobic GW messed with the background, Orks had females. You can't advance a sentient species with asexual reproduction. No reason for women going to war, unless a necessity borne of desperation. Why does the Ogre Female Maneater need a false beard? Bulls are the ones that wear the gutplates and do all the fighting, with the odd wanderlust female.

"BRB" Big Red Book.  However, I agree that they just muddied the picture with respect to Orcs.

The false beard on the female Maneater was just plain silly.  I tossed it.  I believe their is a decent argument to have equality between the sexes among Ogres than in just about any other WFB race.  Even excluding conflict with other races, there is constant warfare between the tribes fed by a lack of food resources.  The tribe that shows up to a fight with 100% of their members is likely to be the tribe that breeds the next generation.

What's BRB? Doesn't finalize anything. Orcs have females, there's even a picture in an old Inferno! of an Orc village with a female with infant in tow. Until schizophrenic gynophobic GW messed with the background, Orks had females. You can't advance a sentient species with asexual reproduction. No reason for women going to war, unless a necessity borne of desperation. Why does the Ogre Female Maneater need a false beard? Bulls are the ones that wear the gutplates and do all the fighting, with the odd wanderlust female.

"BRB" Big Red Book.  However, I agree that they just muddied the picture with respect to Orcs.

The false beard on the female Maneater was just plain silly.  I tossed it.  I believe their is a decent argument to have equality between the sexes among Ogres than in just about any other WFB race.  Even excluding conflict with other races, there is constant warfare between the tribes fed by a lack of food resources.  The tribe that shows up to a fight with 100% of their members is likely to be the tribe that breeds the next generation.

I had to Google Big Red Book to figure out it meant the WFB rulebook - I thought it had something to do with Mao. Rogue Trader drew a picture of a devolved race of spacefarers. A tribe would never show up to a fight with all its members, who stay behind to manage things? In tribal conflicts the females would be one of the spoils. The human race is descended from 80% of the female population, but only 40% of males. Unless defending the lair/infants, females wouldn't be involved in a fight, let alone wear gutplates.

Ogre females!

In the Ogre kingdom novel, the females are treated very differently to males!
The Females are kept in their own chambers in Skabrand (ogre town) they are locked in a room. This is to stop anyone else mating with the head tyrant of any tribes females. One reason they will get challenged by other ogres is for access to these females and the chance to mate. In ape society its only the dominate male who gets to breed tell he is beaten by a stronger rival, keeping the species strong.
In extreme cases as in the novel the females will follow the males to war. You guys should give it a read it answers alot of these questions.
As for the orcs being fungus, i hate that theory but it is what gw have now said. That of all the creatures in the old world orcs were not planned and were a spore on a ship!

Yes thats true.. they came on the old ones ship(s) to be more exact 

I had to Google Big Red Book to figure out it meant the WFB rulebook - I thought it had something to do with Mao.

  I've met countless people who were infamiliar with cyber-abbreviations, but this beats all. I had to put that in my signature.

With respect to Jog; I see Ogre society as being far more primitive, akin to hunter-gathering humans.  The difference is that they are not that interested in berries or tubers (if one really has a hankering for a berry, send a Gnobler.  At least he has a fighting chance against a berry.  But I still give odds on the berry) but in lots of lots of meat.

In that respect, Cows are just as useful as Bulls in breaking open a tasty trade caravan wagon.  On other argument for sexual equality among Ogres, is the fact that Ogres have an inexhaustible supply of child care.  Mom nurses the little tyke several times a day, then hands him or her over to those Gnoblers that survived the encounter with the berry.

No, I see ogres exactly as primitive as you Rufas, which is why I wrote "primeval cultures" in my post. Where our agreement stops is at how this implements in ogre culture. It's true that gathering don't play a role as important in ogre culture as it did for humans; ogres are clearly a hunting culture. I don't think this is an argument for sexual equality though. Are cows really just as useful for hunting as bulls? Wouldn't it be more natural that male ogres are the strongest, and therefor best acostumed for hunting/war? In lieu with what Grumble said about female ogres in the BL novel, I'd say that ogre females are similar to certain animal females - i.e. breeders. If things were different, then how come we don't see any female tyrants or butchers, heck even mundane cows, in official GW background?

As to the matter of orc orgins, I agree that the background is inconclusive. But that's GW for you. Generally newer stuff trumps older, and hence it would seem that orcs are indeed fungi. However, the quote I supplied was just one quote. I wouldn't be surprised if someone could come up with a quote from one of the newer army books that says the opposite.

Cheers.

If things were different, then how come we don't see any female tyrants or butchers, heck even mundane cows, in official GW background?

Because GW is terrible at dealing with reproduction in general, and women in particular.

In ape society its only the dominate male who gets to breed tell he is beaten by a stronger rival, keeping the species strong.

Baboon society limits mating to the dominant males, The females aren't locked up but to much attention will bring the wrath of  the "Tyrant".
Chimps on the other hand are very promiscuous.  Share and share alike.

I think that GW has always had a problem developing their fluff.  I am such a newbie to Ogres I didn't know they had literature.  However, I don't feel obliged to follow the GW party line.  I also think the Orc spore explanation is a load of cr*p.

What I am trying to get to with this thread is that the breeding strategy of each species, has a direct relationship to their long term chances for survival.  Skaven present the simplest example.  Females are mere breeding machines, and most likely most are restricted to warrens in Skavenblight or in the clan stronghold.  This allows them to  breed as fast as possible when food resources are available.  However,, their is a danger to the strategy.  If the enemy can penetrate the breeding warren and slaughter the few females, they can effectively kill the entire clan.

If the enemy can penetrate the breeding warren and slaughter the few females, they can effectively kill the entire clan.  

Fortunately for the Skaven no enemy has ever successfully reached Skavenblight, nor ever will.

I also think the Orc spore explanation is a load of cr*p.

Personally, I don't like it either, but unfortunately that little bit about the Orc spores on the Old Ones' ships somehow got slipped into the BRB where before there was nothing about Orc reproduction. So it's now official, even if the general public doesn't want to admit it.

As far as I see it it is completely reasonable that humans don't send their females into battle. Crudely speaking females are baby factories. Males are more expendable. One male can produce hundreds of offspring per year, while females can only produce 1 per year. They are the speedbump in procreation. Losing too many of them therefore would cause a significant drop in birth rate.
The same applies for Ogres. They can't afford to loose too many females. Also being pregnant takes up a lot of energy and takes away mobility of the females. Being together with others of the same species provides them with protection. While the females are basically stuck around a certain location, at least while pregnant, they are immediately the logical choice for raising the whelps, making clothes and other jobs that do not require the female to roam a large area. Just my two cents.

I think that, as long as the Warhammer hobby continues to be a male-dominated hobby, the females almost all the Warhammer species won't be seeing the light of day. I'm guessing that if more women gamers were into this game, there'd more roles for women in the armies, and less of the women on the battle field would be thong-wearing succubi (honestly, who WEARS that to a battle? And why can't there be a Chippendale version of the Daemonettes?)

As for Ogre females, I can see them at home rearing Ogre whelps. However, the Ogres have gnoblar slaves to do their cooking, cleaning, and sewing for them, so I'm not sure that Ogre females are stuck in their caves doing those chores. I'm also pretty sure that Ogre females could be Shamans, I know the Hmong have woman shamans and I'm pretty sure that other Shamanist religions accept women into the religious structure.

At the very least, I will do my next to Butchers as females.  I also think I'll build a few bull/cow conversions.

There is another question concerning Ogre reproduction.  Is access to mating opportunities equal for all males?  Are Ogres monogamous?  Does the Tyrant reserve all mating opportunities to himself with the certainty that there will be many challanges to his authority.  Or is mating allowed for the Tyrant and Bruisers, or even Ironguts?

Probably just for the Tyrant, seeing as alot of Ogre society is animalistic at best.

- Example:

A pride of lions lives in a forest. There are 12 lionesses and 3 lions. However, the two smaller males are subserviant to the larger, more ferocious male. The big guy then benefits from a] first dibs on food, b] sex, and c] a relatively lazy life. The other two must constantly patrol pride territory. Once Moe dies in a fight however, either Curly or Larry the lion will become the dominant male and hold same privelages as the deceased Moe.

At least I'm pretty sure it works that way.

In the ogre kingdoms novel, The tyrant has all his females locked up, so others cannot get to them. Dont picture him lending out the key! Otherwise they rarely get mentioned. Although one is observed later with a baby clinging to its back!

Ogre Kingdoms novel? What is it called?

Its called Wild Kingdoms by Robert Earl

Its quite good. Enjoyable and worth reading if you are into ogres, which you obviously are, but not a great novel.

I ordered it from my local library, it took about 2 months to arrive, but they do have it.

There is something to be said about the Tyrant keeping all of the females for himself.  And if so, it would be a point to argue that females are not fighting (except for those beyond breeding age).  However, the downside for the Tyrant is that this  strategy would insure a constant supply challenges and a relatively short life span for the Tyrant.  Also when a male lion assumes the top spot in the pride, he immediately kills the youngest cubs to push the females into breeding.

An alternate strategy would be to keep the most desirable females for himself but allow the Brusiers and perhaps the Ironguts access to the dregs in order to buy their complacency.