2250pts - Been a while since last time ^^

Hello everyone ^^. Been a while since I visited theese forums last time.
Anyways, from the last time I where here, some of you might remember me working on a Khauz O&G army.
And I did. Not to much work, but alot of thinking.
So, I spent about a year just thinking about ho to convert the army, and now have a really good plan for all the conversions.
But, after coming upp with all theese convertions etc., I came to a very important part in making a stunning army.
And that is experience.

I've only been into the Hobby for about 3-4 years now, and I don't have alot of experience on convertions.
I haven't even fully finished ONE unit that i'm satisfied with. And as i'm quite a prefectionist, I don't want to ruin the Khauz O&G just do too common newbie mistakes.

So, I felt that I had to do a army to home my skills on. And as I have some Ogres since my last attempt on an army, I felt that they would be perfect to train on.
So, first thing to do was to find a theme. Something different, something I hadn't seen, something that appealed me.
And that became the Lazargh tribe.
We already have all theese nice Chaos OK around here, so I didn't feel like adding another one. So this will be perfect for me.

But, before you start building an army, you need a list. A working list that makes the army worthwhile.
Because we don't want to spend good parts of our freetime on a beutiful army that can't win squat, don't we?

So, this is a first try in a long time. So please help me with all theese common rookie mistakes.

Tyrant
Tenderiser
Heavy armour
Wyrdstone Necklace
Fistftul of Laurels
Luck-Gnoblar
296

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispel scroll
180

Butcher
Skullmantle
Dispel scroll
Tooth-Gnoblar
180

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

4 Ironguts
192

25 Gnoblars
50

10 Trappers
60

2 Leadbelchers
Bellower
120

2 Leadbelchers
Bellower
120

Scraplauncher
165

Gorger
75

Gorger
75

2250pts
Pd:6 + Bangstick
Dd:4 + 2 Scrolls

There are a few things I wonder about.
1. Butchers.
Are 2 Butchers worth it?. Will they perform their job or is there just not enough power to pull it through?.
Should you just ignore Butchers if you can't take 3 of them to get you full power?.
Just two of them helps you with magic protection. But isn't a Butcher with two scrolls, a unit of 3 naked Bulls and
the Rune Maw pretty decent to (and cheaper)?.
Of course this only protects one unit, but when your only truly juicy target is the Irongut+Tyrant unit, isn't it that one the most important to protect?

2. Ironguts and Lookout-Gnoblars?
Are they worth it?. In a normal unit of 3 Ironguts with a character in it. Does it really help that much?.
I mean, you have to have 3 non-character models for the Lookout-Gnoblar to work. And as the unit only consists of 3 non-character models, it would be very easy to render the Lookout-Gnoblar useless by just knocking away a Irongut
(I mean, the things we fear are multi-wound artillery like cannons, and it's no problem for one of thoose to kill a Irongut.)
Is the unit just better of saving thoose 25pts for something else. Or is that first shot of (relative) safety worth it?

Well, I guess that's all.
Thanks in advance for the help ^^.

The fistful of laurels is something I would normally leave at home, but if you're strongly attached to it, I won't try hard to talk you out of it.

The tooth gnoblar is next to useless. Drop him and 4 of your gnoblar fighters in favor of 2 more trappers.
Alternately, take those points 13 points, drop two trappers, and buy your unit of 4 ironguts a standard.

Either way you look at it, 4 of those gnoblar fighters are pretty useless. 21 is a fine unit, it panics when 6 die instead of when 5 die like a unit of 21 does. The tooth gnob is also very  . The only way to make those 13 points useful is to combine them with some dropped trappers for a standard for the irongut unit of 4.

If you're willing to unload the laurels, you have more points to play with, and at that point I would also drop one of the leadbelcher units and buy two more ironguts. Take one irongut out of the unit of 4, add it to the two you just bought, and make another unit of three, then buy both units standards.

That last option is actually what I would personally do.

However comma there is nothing really wrong with your list as posted. Its really personal preference if you want the laurels and the 2nd unit of leadbelchers, versus 5 units of ironguts.

This is a good looking list. As to your questions (the first of which was really the only issue);
1. Take 3 butchers. At 2000 points you can get away with 2, but anything over you need that third butcher. And no, a single scroll caddy and the Rune Maw is not adequate protection. Because of the nature of the ogre army, there are no units you want to lose without your consent (you should have no problem sacrificing bulls, that's what they're there for, but make sure it's when you want to). There are many spells that do not directly target units: Invocation of Nehek, Second Sign of Amul, Comet of Cassandora!, Danse Macabre, Bear's Anger, most of the Tomb King spells, and the list goes on. Sure you'll have a dispel scroll, but 3 dispel dice isn't going to do squat.
2. I hope you're not asking are ironguts worth it. That's Ogre army 101; Ogres spell win i-r-o-n-g-u-t. I've never taken look-out gnoblars, because I don't put my characters in the position where they need it. But if you think you'll be facing alot of artillery, take them. Those few points are a very wise investment when it comes to protecting your characters. And sure it's easy to knock off an irongut, but if you are putting your boys out there long enough for that to be a problem, it's your own fault if your Tyrant gets a cannon ball to the face.
And do everything Kadrium said. Fistfull of Laurels shouldn't be an item you need, or take, and leadbelchers aren't nearly as useful as either ironguts or another butcher.

There are a few things I wonder about.
1. Butchers.
Are 2 Butchers worth it?. Will they perform their job or is there just not enough power to pull it through?.
Should you just ignore Butchers if you can't take 3 of them to get you full power?.
Just two of them helps you with magic protection. But isn't a Butcher with two scrolls, a unit of 3 naked Bulls and
the Rune Maw pretty decent to (and cheaper)?.
Of course this only protects one unit, but when your only truly juicy target is the Irongut+Tyrant unit, isn't it that one the most important to protect?

2. Ironguts and Lookout-Gnoblars?
Are they worth it?. In a normal unit of 3 Ironguts with a character in it. Does it really help that much?.
I mean, you have to have 3 non-character models for the Lookout-Gnoblar to work. And as the unit only consists of 3 non-character models, it would be very easy to render the Lookout-Gnoblar useless by just knocking away a Irongut
(I mean, the things we fear are multi-wound artillery like cannons, and it's no problem for one of thoose to kill a Irongut.)
Is the unit just better of saving thoose 25pts for something else. Or is that first shot of (relative) safety worth it?

Well, I guess that's all.
Thanks in advance for the help ^^.

1) 2 butchers are for friendly games. Really, really want to win games are 3 butchers. 1 or 2 butchers are for competitions where soft scores are very important but you still want to be competitive in combat.

2) they help more than a sword gnoblar. for me, when I have 3 banners and 15 spare points, I get lookout gnobbos. If I have 3 banners and 20 spare points, I get another banner.

Ok, I'm here to learn ^^. I don't have any particular attachement to, it's just something I always took about a year ago ^^.
When I think about it really don't have that big of a use. Your supposed to NOT lose combat with your IG+Tyrant unit.
(15)

And as a third butcher seems apropriate, how about dropping the Scraplauncher and get a Siegebreaker Butcher?.
(180-170=10)

Then drop a unit of Leadbelchers and drop a Irongut from the 4-man unit. Then buy a another 3 Ironguts and get the first one a Banner+Lookout-Gnoblar.
(178-169=9)

Then drop the 4 Gnoblars and Tooth-Gnoblar as you said. And then get 2 more Trappers.
(22-12=10)

This leaves me with:

Tyrant
Tenderiser
Heavy armour
Wyrdstone Necklace
Luck-Gnoblar
281

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispel scroll
180

Butcher
Skullmantle
Dispel scroll
175

Butcher
Siegebreaker
170

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
144

21 Gnoblars
42

12 Trappers
72

2 Leadbelchers
Bellower
120

Gorger
75

Gorger
75

2240pts
Pd:8 + Bangstick
Dd:5 + 2 Scrolls

That leaves me with 10pts to spare.
Buy a Trapper and a Snarefinger?

Trapper would be ok, as would a bellower on the last Irongut unit so it is a bit more effective at baiting. or you could drop 2 of the 4 lookout gnoblars and but a banner on the guts.

actually, I'd cut some trappers and use the points to buy the tyrant the longstrider bigname - suprise 14" charges and 3d6 pursue can give you tactical flexability and a really nice edge

This looks good. I'd never take the siegebreaker on a butcher (that's just personal preferrence), and instead I'd get more dispel scrolls (which you are lacking).

This looks good. I'd never take the siegebreaker on a butcher (that's just personal preferrence), and instead I'd get more dispel scrolls (which you are lacking).

I approve this idea. Drop the siegebreaker from the butcher, bumping you up to 45 free points, then cut 1 trapper and buy two scrolls instead.

Four scrolls?.
Is that really nesecary?.

I'd consider 3 to be your bare minimum. 4 may not always be necessecary, but frankly I'd rather have too many than not enough. A scroll to kill a crucial spell is always nice to have. Sure you may have 5 dispel dice, but once in a while you can roll a whole lotta 1's..

my opinion differs a little, and I'd say that 3 scrolls and 5 dice will do you fine until you hit 3000 points, when I'd include another scroll and a slaughtermaster in the list.

What else would you have him spend the points on though? If he takes a siegebreaker, he'll have to give up two scrolls and only have two left.

As it stands right now, 4 scrolls (as many as that is) is much better than 2 scrolls and the siegebreaker. And sure 4 might be overkill, but completely shutting down your opponent's magic phase isn't actually a bad thing.

Yeah, you can have 4 turns of 1 autodispell and 5 more dice to throw around. That will pretty much totally neutralize your opponent's magic for those 4 turns. By turn 5, hopefully you'll have killed off at least one of his mages, and just the dice will be enough to finish off the game.

Two scrolls is more than worth a siegebreaker on a butcher, to me.

But what if your opponent doesn't use magic att all?
That's 100pts just down the drain...
But, ofcourse IF they DO have magic, then it's quite nice to be packing 4 scrolls.
How about taking 3 (75) Scrolls?

3, as I have said, if my favoured number.  My current butcher steups are as follows:

butcher 1 - bangstick+scroll
butcher 2 - fistful of laurels+skullmantle
butcher 3 - scroll, scroll

this way I get everything I want.  butcher 1 goes towards the flanks for bangstick shots on fast cav.  butcher 2 goes in the tyrant's unit so that the fistful can protect them and they benefit most from the skullmantle.  butcher 3 goes in a 3rd IG unit and is generally placed so that, between butcher 2 and 3, the army is in gut magic range for buffs.

4 scrolls are fine... for every dwarf or Khorne army that doesn't use magic, you will face a summon-heavy VC army or Slaanesh/Tzeentch Chaos that goes through all four scrolls by turn 3 (at least in my area)

I usually take 3 if I am playing with 3 butchers, but I have not actually been playing 3 butcher armies in a couple months (trying to play without offensive gut magic to focus on tactics and movement).

instead of 2 scrolls (if you don't want 4) try 1 scroll and Longstrider.

Thanks for all the helpfull points ^^. I think i'll go with Wildcard's tip. 3 scrolls should be enough in my area ^^.
So, this leaves me with:

Tyrant
Tenderiser
Heavy armour
Wyrdstone Necklace
Luck-Gnoblar
281

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispel scroll
180

Butcher
Skullmantle
Dispel scroll
175

Butcher
Dispell scroll
155

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

4 Ironguts (Tyrant and Skull Mantle Butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
217

3 Ironguts (Bangstick Butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts (Dispell scroll butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
144

3 Ironguts
144

22 Gnoblars
44

12 Trappers
72

2 Leadbelchers
Bellower
120

Gorger
75

Gorger
75

Pd:8 + Bangstick
Dd:5 + 3 Scrolls
Units: 12
Models: 64
Ogres: 28
Gnoblars: 34

Now, a simple question:

1. Irongut formation with more then one Character in the unit.
Well, what formation do you use?.
Last time I where here the normal one when you had two Characters in a unit was to have a unit of 4.
So it could be formed upp like this:
IG-Ch-Ch-IG
IG           IG

This is what i've gone with in the list, but is this still a normal formation used?.
Or is there another more usefull formation to use nowadays?

(Some of you might wonder why I still have 3 Lookout-Gnoblars, and it's just because of one simple fact. The 2 Great Cannons used in one of the armies I play. I want to have some relative safety for atleast one turn you know ^^)

Well, 7th ed rules state that if you have models in the back rank, they must be in the center of the rank and then fill outward.

Your unit would look something like this:

IG-CH-CH-IG
     IG-IG

Or, if you went for 5 wide, you'd have:

IG-CH-CH-IG-IG
          IG

Personally I would not normally suggest joining 2 characters to a unit of 4. I feel ironguts sitting in the back ranks is a gigantic waste of points. I also feel that 5-wide units is too big, though for a tyrant/skullmantle butcher/irongut unit, you can sometimes make an exception. As the major rock solid hammer core of your army, you don't oftten need to perform any fancy maneuvering with it, and the 5th ogre in the unit can help to protect from panic if they get shot and lose one, so I would let it slide.

Still, cut one irongut out of that unit and run it as 3+ characters in either a 4+1 in the back (if you think you'll get shot a lot) or a 5 wide (if you expect all 5 models to make it to close combat).

I would take that one irongut you remove and use him to buy 2 standards for the other irongut units and another gnoblar trapper.

I agree with and fully support your buying of lookout gnoblars. I protect all my characters with the same.

Ok, so final list is:

Tyrant
Tenderiser
Heavy armour
Wyrdstone Necklace
Luck-Gnoblar
281

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispel scroll
180

Butcher
Skullmantle
Dispel scroll
175

Butcher
Dispell scroll
155

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Bulls
Bellower
115

3 Ironguts (Tyrant and Skull Mantle Butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts (Bangstick Butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts (Dispell scroll butcher)
Standard
Lookout-Gnoblar
169

3 Ironguts
Standard
164

3 Ironguts
Standard
164

23 Gnoblars
46

13 Trappers
78

2 Leadbelchers
Bellower
120

Gorger
75

Gorger
75

2250pts
Pd:8 + Bangstick
Dd:5 + 3 Scrolls
Units: 12
Models: 65
Ogres: 27
Gnoblars: 36


Does this look good enough?

I'd field it.

so would I, and expect it to win too.

Well then, thanks for all the help. Now that I have a lst to work on, I can get going with the modelling ^^.

Take a look into the Gnoblog Forums in a month or so to see progress made on the army
(I'll wait untill I've finished atleast one unit. So I've gotten going before I post it all ^^).

Once again, thanks for the quick and usefull help with my list .

Welcome back Mawgrim! I look forward to the new Gnoblog.