Warhammer ---> History

Ok. So I was thinking, what does each Warhammer Race represent in History? (This topic has probably been brought up on this forum, but it's hard to know what to search in the Hunt tool.) On the ones I have left out it is because I don't have a clue and this is where your imput comes in.

These are my thoughts:

Chaos: USSR/Vikings
People( ) from the North that are shown as evil. They are a plague that takes Europe and fights a battle with the Empire (Germany). They also come from what is the area of North Europe and Russia.

Bretonnia: Medieval England and France
Need I explain? With the Arthurian theme and the Holy Grail, there English side comes apparant. They are based in the area of nowadays France and chivalry and customs of France are shown. They even have a town called Bordelaux which onl has two letters different from the real town.

Dark Elves: ?

Dwarves: Scots

The Empire: Holy Roman Empire, Renaissance Germany
With Germanic names for their cities and being geographically placed where Germany is, they are undoutedly based on the Holy Roman Empire. Their general structure bears similarities to this period.

High Elves: Atlantis

Lizardmen: Incas and Aztecs
Originating from "South America" and having stepped pyramids, Lizardmen are very alike to the Incas and the Aztecs. They live in the "Amazon Rainforest" and could be based on some of the creatures that live there.

Orcs and Goblins: General Bandits
Widespread across the world and unruly in every way they are just there to represent barbarians and bandits that are everywhere. Their society is very typical with big warriors and slaves.

Skaven: The Downtrodden

Tomb Kings: Ancient Egypt
Apart from Bretonnians, these are the most obvious link to what they represent. They have haidresses, chariots, mummies, pyramids and because the Egyptians were so long before the other armies, they are all dead; an interesting turn for the player.

Vampire Counts: Everything That Ever Died
Based on Gothic, Eastern Europe they are undoubtedly originated from Dracula and other such things. They isn't much to explain about them in history as they are just the Vampiric Undead that we would associate them with.

Wood Elves: Native Americans
Although they don't live in America, they have some similarities. They are at one with nature and use it to its full potential. I think they live in Europe because there isn't much in the New World and therefore they wouldn't be in the action at all

Well they are my views and I am open to edit this post as any of your ideas come in.

Thanks

Keep in mind too, as you discuss this that perhaps they aren't all necessarily based on places, but rather "socities". For instance, Skaven could easily represent the donwtrodden, who if they banded together could easily take over. The High Elves could be society's elite, the rich, powerful that are small in number.

Just some additional ideas, i like the thread idea!

The high elves are tenuously based on myths of Atlantis. (Ulthuan sinking into the waves, very advanced magical society etc etc).

Also, I think you're struggling to palce dwarves and woodelves as they are less absed on historical societies but rather traditional fantasy archetypes (elfs live in woods. dwarves live underground. Tolkien etc) The other two elves are more tied to historical/mythical references (atlantis et al).

I think you're a bit off with chaos as well. Nowadays they're based much more off barbarian beserkers. I'd think vikings and other northern european historical references would be more accurate.

And you missed of ogres! they're pretty clearly based on mongols/ steppes riders etc. Think gehngis khan and you won't go far wrong (although to the best of my knowledge, no ogre has ever been transported to modern day san dimas, no matter how excellant his life may have been)

thanks
Corai

Dwarfs are at least part-Scot. Clans, living in mountains and having a prediliction for big axes screams Scot or Pict in my view.

With the Dwarves I see a lot of Norse culture. Not Viking, but Scandinavian. Their art is extremely similar, they have the many of the same runes, use very Nordic names and respect the same things (honor, wealth and glory).

I read in some Beastmen preview that the designers based them off of Germanic barbarians- mobs of unstructured, filthy, screaming savages pouring out of dark forests to prey upon the cities of the civilized (think the opening sequence from Gladiator).

The greenskins I see as the Scots. Most prominently they have the kilts and the blue warpaint. And their army organization is pretty similar; they don't have armies like the Empire, but instead one powerful warboss bands together many clans/tribes to form a huge warband long enough to get rich, and fight some good fights. And orcs just have that Scottish attitude- fight, drink hard, enjoy life.

The Brets are 100% French. They have the Arthurian legend, but that got exported to France after a while. The Brettonian army structure is French (except for the bowmen, English use them while the French used the crossbows).

And I think Chaos Mortals are very Northern European. They are the huge, fur clad marauders from the North, and just like our Vikings the Empire does not recognize any culture behind the raids.

I think Kislev may be more Slavic (Russian and Polish) in nature than chaos seems to be in my mind.

Anyways, I'll end the argument and discussion for all of you.  Obviously all the groups are based on the USA.  I mean where else do you get such a polyglot of people, cultures, social groups, etc....  See that way you guys don't have to argue about whether some group is more Scottish or Viking in make-up .


Vikings are Scandinavian ethnically speaking so I am not sure that the above point makes much sense to me, unless you are trying to differentiate time periods in some way, which I am still not seeing.  I am just confused by you point here, could you clarify a bit please?

Thanks,
JC

I don't think every race has a real world equivalent. Some of the obvious ones like Cathay, the Empire and Bretonnia obviously do, whereas others are just based of other fantasy demographics.

I've seen some some people trying to place every Warhammer race in the real world timeline, and in the end most of them just end up clutching at straws. I.e Wood Elves - they are just fantasy stereotypes integrated into into the old world, and dwarfs, with their gunpowder and metalcraft, I can't think of a real world civilisation that might come close enough to them to become a possible inspiration. I could name a few that bear some similarities, but to actually have influenced them somehow, I'd have to try very hard.

I think you nailed it on the head pretty good. I would place dwarves as a melting pot of several cultures, not unlike the Lizardmen... Dark elves you could place the Visigoth, but that might be a bit of a stretch.

Actually in my own screwy way I was trying to make this same point.  I am not sure that you can say there is a one to one equivalent for most armies.  There may be cultural or historical inspirations for certain groups from our own world, but not an equivalent. 

Thanks,
JC

I was trying to show the difference between the Norse influences on dwarves, and the Norse influences on Chaos. Chaos got all the bad rep the Vikings had; huge, barbarous marauders who only want to burn your homes and steal your women. Dwarves got the culture itself, with respect to their values, and language, structure and beliefs. I used Viking and Scandinavian to show this difference because not all Scandinavians were Vikings, and the image of the two is different.

Unfortunately the Druchii are based on the writings of Michael Moorcock (though the current GW crew vehemently denies it, older crews have admitted as much).  This means you really won't find them around anyplace.

I would actually think the Skaven are more like India, during the dark times past.

heavily structured castes, untouchables, "life is cheap" mentality... "the downtrodden" is a bit vague.

Who's Michael Moorcock?

Dark Elves: the hatred in all of us.


 To me dark elves are hatred, loathing, fear, etc. in the flesh. they represent the darkness in us all.



 thanks Greasus409

Michael Moorcock is an author.  His best known series is the eternal champion series featuring a character named Elric from a place called Melnibone.  Sometimes this series is also called the Stormbringer series.  If you read the Dark Elf army book and this series, especially the part that describes the city Elric is from, you will see almost exact descriptions.  If you are a reader, I can vouch for the first 7 books as they are amazing.  I have stopped reading him due to all the other stuff I have been reading so I haven't read a book written by Moorcock that was published after like 1990 or so.  You can usually find the original series in an omnibus for about 20 bucks at Barnes and Noble or Borders.  Online I can't find much on the omnibus's as his name returns 1200 entries on amazon

Thanks Jestor, I'm always on the look out for good Fantasy. I'll check that out.

High Elves are slightly representative of Greeks I think.

Not that I disagree, but why?

Thanks,
JC

I actually agree, and, thinking about it, further equations could be drawn between HE and the ancient Athenians, and the DE and the ancient Spartans. The main parallels: HE are snobbish, effete and artistically inclined, all generalisations of how ancient Athens was viewed. The DE are a militarily-based society, and look down on HE art as weakness: very Spartan. Additionally, the endless war between HE and DE is almost like an extended version of the Peloponesian (dunno how its spelled)  War.

mm sorry I was too lazy to give reasons 
The main reasons Gworg just gave are basically true. I also noticed (as I'm studying Ancient Greece at school right now) that some of the city names are the same - Greece had a state called Chrace or Thrace (can't remember which), which rung a bell with a High Elven city I can remember.

GW always has clear clues on what each race represents and that seemed to be one of them

Not a problem, unfortunatley I am a teacher who teaches Ancient World History and so I have a BAD habit of wanting to know why people think the way they do and whether they can justify their answers.  Sorry.  I agree with both you and Ghworg in general also.  The HE's do seem to have a good bit of Ancient Greece running through them; place name similarities, artistic bent, the ideals of a kind of stoic virtue, the "givers" of culture and learning to other later developing civilizations, etc...
I even, in very general terms, like the idea of DE's as a kind of "spartan" military based state.  I hadn't really thought about it before, but this seems insightful and a pretty good interpretation to me.

Thanks,
JC

Why thankyou! 

Dark Elf Shades. They are Dark Elf babies deemed unfit for some reason, and then left out in the cold to die, correct? Which is quite similar to the Spartan view on malformed children.

Most Greek city-states had a belief in infanticide through abandonment, but Sparta was a little different.  Whereas other Greeks usually got rid of their daughters, Sparta got rid of its sons.  Plus the Spartans did not leave to chance the fact that some lonely shepard might pick up an abandoned kid, NOPE they threw the kid down a nasty gorge just to make sure they got rid of the "substandard" material that should have been able to become the "perfect" Spartan warrior-citizen.  Got to hand it to the Spartans they did not take half measures, probably one of the reasons Adolph Hitler loved this aspect of their culture .

I really like this comparison you make too, as I didn't know much about the DE's and this aspect of their culture.  Learn something new everyday!

Thanks,
JC

I did know about the Spartan baby-chasm, but I didn't know other Greeks practiced infanticide regularly.
Another small comparison you can draw between the High Elves and Greece is the Nemean lion. A magical lion killed impervious to arrows, killed by Hercules who then wore his pelt. And the White Lions hunt magical lions (I'm pretty sure Chrace is where the High Elves have all those roaming giant monsters), and wear the pelts which protect them against missile fire (+2 save vs. missiles). It's the little things that count.

This isn't true. In the book it says that the custom among the Shade clans is to leave new babies outside in the cold on their first night in order to make sure they're tough enough. With that kind of initiation, I'm surprised Shades aren't rare choices.

Oh, oops.

Oh, and some further stuff I found about for the Elves=Greek theory, in Eldar (which we all know is just a scifi version of elves) armies in 40k, there are things such as the Seer Council - like the Council of Elders in Sparta - and a leader called an Archon.

But it contradicts the existence of the phoenix king and the witch king.
clearly monarchies, if you look it from the side of the elves you are on of course.
We all know that the phoenix king isn't the one it should be as Malekith is still alive...

Well, it can't match exactly I guess 

But many Ancient Greek city states were ruled by tyrants.  At first this term was actually a benevolent and positive phrase and only later did it come to mean what we think of it as today, a "negative, rule at all costs" sort of fellow.  I think that either the Phoenix King or Malekith could work in very well with Greek history idea.  Remember there are over 1,000 independent city states at certain times during the Classical time period and not everyone of them ruled the exact same way.  By the way Sparta also had kings (two), although they were more "war-leaders" than anything else I can think of off the top of my head, they still had them though.

Thanks,
JC

In that case you can't use the way a civilisation was ruled as a pointer if the elves are derived from the greek city states:
- eldar have a seer council like some greek city states
- elves have kings ( or are ruled by one) like greek city states.

Skaven are like eldar with the council of thirteen, so they are derived from the greek city states.

Shawn gave  reason why the elves are like greeks, but that is a very shortcut if greeks have two (or more) different ways of running a city state.

I can go along with that as long as it isn't a form of government that was distinctly developed by the Greeks like democracy (which of course HE's and DE's and most definetly not).

Thanks,
JC

Would it not be easier to simply state that HE & DE are the two sides of the classical coin. HE represent the virtues that we have attatched to the civilisations of Greece and Rome whilst the Dark Elves are the darker less wholesome aspects, which we tend to gloss over in our eurocentric appreciation of world history. HE are the light whilst DE are the shadow one providing definition for the other in a form of inverted symbiosis (the jedi & sith). To stick with the greek theme is it possible to state that DE is a culture which has embraced a state of total katalepsis, whilst HE tend to towards more stoic controlled interaction with other races and their surroundings. I think its difficult personally to attatch definitive labels to any of the races since they all borrow from various sources to provide suitable differentiation and character without contradicting fantasy conventions or conflicting with the basic fantasy frame-work codified by Tolkien.

I do like the Sparta/Athens comparison though especially since the at times Oligarchical nature of Athenian society is reminiscent of the intrigue at court rule as I understand it.

Could it be that the conflict between High Elves and Dark Elves reflect the struggle between Id and Ego within us all and that Wood Elves are a balanced block of cheese somewhere between the two (Although for the record I thought WE were supposed to have a pre-Roman Celtic flavour about them).

Oh and for all of you studying classics at school just remember

"Schoolboys have teachers, adults have poets", now go check out Ovid......

That was a mighty complicated explanation there Mawchild

Ok, so I'll just say the character of the High Elves matches that of Ancient Greeks - they are the ones who spread culture to the rest of the world, and they think they're the greatest race in the world.

Agreed and I like your thoughts here, although I tried to stick away from something so complex, it is a nice addition to what has already been posted.


I like this thought in particular as you are right, sometimes the oligarchical (although I would have been tempted to say aristocratic) nature of Athens is very much like what intrigue at court does for the HE's.  Similar to some of the political in-fighting within the city-state of Athens around the time of Peisistratus, his sons, and after.


Sorry though, I hate poetry for the most part and why would I want to be exiled to the middle of nowhere for reading such corrupting and morally degenerate stuff as Ovid ?

Thanks,
JC

I too like Mawchild´s thesis. Just as a side note though, what is katalepsis?

Katalepsis is the "demonic" possession of an individual during the heat of battle. The succombing albeit temporally to the primal instincts, the frenzy and bloodlust required to quell fear and rational thought in the melee of close combat. Katalepsis is that which causes man to commit the atrocities of war and at the same time it is what drives him to feats of martial prowess.

As for Ovid, I found his advice very useful during my mispent youth.

Wow! Katalepsis is pretty much a one-word summary of the Dark Elves!