Ogres vs Undead (VC)

This discussion was split from this thread: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=5919.0


undead our bane??????  are you nuts?????



seriously, we are THEIR bane.  I'll elaborate soon when I've got more time, gotta run now!

The only thing I agree with in that article is how he said that the undead are our bane.

See, not even this is true.

Undead are the easiest armies for us to beat, especially VC.
Undead pros are: immune to psycology, cause fear, big numbers, heavy magic, uber characters (especially BD), never run;
Undead cons are: slow movement (apart book of arkhan and the arkhan spell), expensive units, expensive characters; no shooting (apart some TK units and the screaming skull catapult);

Look at the undead pros:
1.cause fear: ogres are immune to fear (because they cause it themselves)
2.uber characters: ours are even better;
3.immune to psycology: so are some of our units, and we can counter that
4.never run: this means that, apart ghouls, they will never be able to bait units and countercharge;
5.big numbers: this might be a problem, but it is countered by a very slow movement, for easy flanking;

and all the cons:
1.slow movement: ogres move 6", undead generally moves 4" (apart wolves, from which you have nothing to worry about, and cavalry, which nobody uses, since it is too expensive);
2.expensive units, expensive characters: you can figure this out;
3.no shooting: shooting is the the bane of ogres, and the fact that a whole army cannot shoot but is 80% devoted to close combat, means that undead is playin' the ogres' way.

See... that article is pure madness: just look at the army lists provided within the GW site: they are pure nonsense.

cheers

and I guess Ikim beat me too it

I'll jsut add that at the back of the VC codex, in the tactical section they warn VC players in the strongest possible terms that they much watch out for the units in the enemy army that are immune to fear as these coutner the biggest advantage that VC have and are the toughtest cookies to face.

our ENTIRE ARMY is like that - and ogres fight a lot better than dead things do.

I have only lost to VC once (hey, dice sometimes roll badly) and its been massacres all the way otherwise.

A butcher in LBs is not that great an idea. If they misfire heavily, they can either wound your butcher badly or kill one of themselves and carry the butcher away in their panic.

As for the bangstick, I'm pretty sure it would be usable on the rally turn, as wizards can cast on the turn they rally. It shouldn't matter what he does, the leadbelchers would not be affected by him.

Still, I wouldn't put a butcher in with them due to the chance of misfire.

AHA! This is where you are wrong wrong wrong wrong! If you point up the ogre lists the way they are in that article, undead are our bane! (Waiting on grotesque amounts of roaring laughter...)

Heh heh, so what about the other questions?

EDIT: WIldcard, what is that Stronghold Nemesis Champion thing in your sig-box? Is that a place? If so, where is it?

on my sig: I won the battle of the tyrants - and I now represent the ogres of the stronghold in the nemesis crown campaign (fluff-wise anyway)

Ikim is correct on all your other questions

Don't forget the big-bad-etherial units that are immune to non-magical attacks, but we have yhetees, and every butcher knows bonecruncher. The only problems I have with VC is that the one guy in my area playing them is a poor sport who makes the game no fun, no matter who wins.

just remember to bring plenty of scrolls against them skele-summoning armies.

(apart wolves, from which you have nothing to worry about, and cavalry, which nobody uses, since it is too expensive);

This is quite a generalised statement. I honestly could not see a single scenario in which I would not use Black Knights: they are well worth their points cost, especially when accompanied by a Thrall. They have longer charge range than an Ogre and are mostly hitting on three's and wounding on 2's (on the charge).

(apart wolves, from which you have nothing to worry about, and cavalry, which nobody uses, since it is too expensive);

This is quite a generalised statement. I honestly could not see a single scenario in which I would not use Black Knights: they are well worth their points cost, especially when accompanied by a Thrall. They have longer charge range than an Ogre and are mostly hitting on three's and wounding on 2's.

always hitting on 3's if they sensibly bring that magical banner....

I thought I should split this topic, and bring these few posts to the feeding grounds section.

As far as Black knights go, I hardly ever see them in tournament settings, and, when I do, they are in small units of 5 knights, used as support/flankers. Nothing to be worried about, really, if you have your flanks protected and can flee and countercharge.

cheers

Quote from Cormorant

Speaking of which, when we charge someone/engage in H2H, we can pick to specifically attack a character on the front rank with any ogres in B2B right? Greg likes to hide his Necros in with units of skeles, and when I issue a challenge, he just refuses. This was the reason for my asking about the greedy fist. If I could shoot the necros with a greed fist and hit, I could at least drain them a level if not wound them. But now, I will just focus on shooting to kill.

Killing necromancer is easy. You'll get the charge on the bodyguard unit (usually skellies or zombies), and you don't have to challenge, simply direct attacks against the necromancer, who will get crushed by any unit bigger than a gnoblar. But most VC players know to pull their necromancer out early enough not to accept a charge with the necromancer, and your trappers should make even this hazardous to the lone wizard.

Unfortunately, I must disagree with some of the said items above.

Undead unit for unit would definitely lose to the Ogres. There is usually more of them and only and impatient undead general would get them in a situation where they are out flanked.

Direwolves are units that can afford to wait at a distance until needed. I fancy myself as a pretty good VC player. So I can see both sides of the coin when it comes to this subject. Ogres comes out trumps in terms of speed, immunity to fear and hitting a lot harder. However, undeads are good at disrupting opponent battle lines and good tarpits, magic being their strongest point.

I'll summarise in saying that Ogres do have an edge against undeads by eliminating their few stronger points. Fear and the ability to wipe out their RnF. But VC and TK are by no means dependant on just those, specially in the hands of a good general.

Its kinda like when undeads fight Khorne warriors. Undeads will be on the back foot, but the win lost ratio does depict the truth of the matter. I've had games where I raised more troops than the Chaos warriors could kill and lose to CR. Kept the general and the entire unit of chosen stuck for a while... all for a little bit of points and magic.

All I am saying is that, though it may seem easier to win against them, not to underestimate them.

Well, I will by no means ever underestimate anyone - that is the first downfall of any general. I usually have problems coming to grips with my own abilities, BUT I OWNED THE UNDEAD LAST NIGHT! It was a complete massacre. (See sig below) If I get a chance, I will post the battle report later. It was the first time I ever did anything aside from "Full Command, Head Down, and CHARGE!!"

I used the Bait/Lure Strat that everyone has been helping me learn, and it was soooooo awesome! Not to mention, the Death Coach got "disassembled" (to say the least) after a unit of Bullgorged IGs got a ahold of it. It had twelve wounds, (demolished some trappers that I misjudged with, and got some bulls on the flank) but it didn't last long after that. Anyhoo, I will post the rest later.

Much thanks to Ikim, Wildcard, Kadrium, and Sterling for their constant patience in teaching me this strat.

Just glad it worked for you!   you'll find your battles against most armies get smoother from now on.

Summoning VC hordes I have a problem with.
I cant kill enough to crumble a unit in one turn most times, and summoned units hit my flanks/rear alot.
My standard list has 5 DD and 3 scrolls which doesnt buy me much time.

My bane? Not so much, but they do give me problems sometimes.

I know this topic is about VC but if you were to say that Undead weren't our bane then I would agree 90% of the time. The only exception would be a Queen Khalida led TK amry with all their poisened shooting hitting on 5s regardless. 50 poisened shots coming at a Bull unit with 1 in 6 chance of wounding would be pretty scary. Maybe the light armour upgrade my come in handy then...

Thanks

I have played 3 battles against VC and have only lost a grand total of 3 models compared to his barely there forces.
I used the hellheart on a Necarch lord too, he forgot all of his spells and was reduced to 1 wound! Muha all in the first turn!!
400 points worth of vegetable that decided to plant itself at the back of the field on turn 1 without moving. lovely.

Who is Necarch?

Also, I have found that when I am facing VC, that if they dont put their necros in a unit (which people ate my shop have tried in light of me hunting them in the units and smacking them down on the charge), just build mage hunters.

The two best is a Hunter (of course) and a Tyrant with Greyback pelt and Longstrider big name.

Question 2: Can you choose for an impact hit to hit someone that the model is in B2B with? Like if I charge with my Tyrant's unit, and the Tyrant ends up in B2B with say a necro, can I have the Tyrant's Impact Hit smack the necro instead of the unit? I just thought of that.

Impact hits are distributed as shooting.
So no targeting chars.

The best mage hunters are Hunters and Tyrants? While it's true they can certainly obliterate any normal wizard, and have a good chance of tackling Tzeentch heroes/Vampires, why waste all those points on a lowly Necromancer? Some trappers can do the job just as well, and for alot cheaper. Even if you trappers are unable to kill a lone Necromancer, just getting in combat with it will keep it from casting spells which is really what you want any ways.

oops, typing too fast, my bad. Necrarch

oops, typing too fast, my bad. Necrarch

  still dont know who yer talking about

The best mage hunters are Hunters and Tyrants? While it's true they can certainly obliterate any normal wizard, and have a good chance of tackling Tzeentch heroes/Vampires, why waste all those points on a lowly Necromancer? Some trappers can do the job just as well, and for alot cheaper. Even if you trappers are unable to kill a lone Necromancer, just getting in combat with it will keep it from casting spells which is really what you want any ways.

As far as the Tyrants and Hunters go, they are costly; but with a 36" range on the Bow combined with the Sabretusks, I think the Hunter is THE best mage hunter. The Tyrant makes a really good distraction as a mage hunter, and if they dont pay attention to him, he can get in some pretty deadly rear and flank charges to assist some IGs or other nasties in H2H. (Trick is keeping him in charge range, but keeping the necro from being able to move into the flank arch)

Plus, Ogres move faster than Gnobbies. When opponents see trappers moving in, they just start moving out of range - and they are still casting whole time you are trying to "trap" him. I totally agree that when they get into range, the trappers are good at what they do, but getting them into range - especially against a smart general - just seems harder most of the time.

Impact hits are distributed as shooting.
So no targeting chars.

 

Thanks for the clarification X.

Don't forget the gorger, mine always takes out the odd lone necromancer in every game I play against VC as they always have one lurking at the back raising skellies/zombies. Even if you only inflict one wound the different unit strengths mean you will usually inflict another via combat res. The only time he didn't take out any necromancers was because he was too busy killing a Blood Dragon vampire Lord via killing blow, a feat which i will always look back on fondly and with a moist eye (LOL).

At this point I should mention my unit of LBs (5 LBs, full comm & BSB with rag banner) who only two days ago took out a unit of charging hell knights and had time to reload and bolstered by the arrival of the Tyrant held out against a frontal assault by the Graveguard and a rear attack by some freshly raised skellies. Of course the toothcracker spell helped as did the flank charge by the Ironguts in the following turn but all in all a proud day for my leadbelchers (usually they either blow themselves up and/or run away)

seriously though very very rarely lose to the undead and I would just add that you should give your hunter some cheap magic weapon and beast killer that way you can also use it to take out any stray etheral troops that may be lurking on your flanks as well as characters ("beast killer" means you don't have to worry about terror causing creatures or the banshees howl which can cause havoc with a couple of dodgy dice rolls).

Yeah, I give him the Biting Blade for that. It's 10 points, and it works. Leaves 40 for names and such.

What was the LB unit you just described? I am curious.

5 leadbelchers with champion and musician plus the battlestandard bearer with the rag banner. I know big units of leadbelchers are often viewed with some scepticism but they put the fear of god in people and are effective in a stand and shoot situation since even needing a 5 to hit  they will usually get 10 hits in on average. Against an eight strong hell knight unit they took out 6 with a volley and finished off the rest in close combat. one got killed off due to magic and given a turn to reload and the arrival of the tyrant they were still well set for the charge of the grave guard two turns later. Of course it should be mentioned that the scenary created a handy bottleneck between a wood and a hill which I just sat in and let them advance into with some bulls sat by the woods discouraging the ghouls from doing anything constructive. The grave guard took a little longer to finish off because of there numbers but the ironguts flank charge speeded the process up nicely removing their rank bonus and most of their static CR. Even a small unit of skellies charging them in the rear didn't phase them. The tooth cracker spell helped but all in all they did a great job. LBs really fit my armies fluff and a big unit really can distract people if they don't realise how difficult it can be at times to hit anything with them, great for taking out cavalry units, poorly armoured infantry or monsters with low toughness. The odd mounted uber character can often prove desperately vulnerable.

later

Hmmm, very nice Mawchild. I will have to try that unit. Thanks!

IMO Ogres should never take 'biting blade', because an ogre club does the same thing and is free

I'm a starting ogre player, and have played a mega battle against both undead armies
Vc are not our bane but TK can be trouble to play against. First if they have skeleton archers they can get double attacks with thier incantations, add that with a kalihda led Army and thats double poisoned hits.
they have the ushabati which can stand up in a fight against ogres. tomb scorpions can decimate ogres and scarab swarms are very good at holding up key units.
the bone giant is a terror with that special rule that gives it extra hits on the charge
the screaming skull catipult can make the ogres look like a set of whoshies with the damage and leadership tests it causes.
and chariots kick ass against small units of bulls, leadbelchers, yhettees and other units with less than s7.
plus any combats can become tar pits, with undead being unable to run and being able to heal wounds/ dead comrades.
i conclude that although undead can't stand toe-to-toe with undead, they can win by being clever and using delaying tactics and holding the whole army up with multiple choices.

it is quite ironic that undead characters can be uber strong but are also both army's weakest point, as if they die the whole army starts to crumble

-Arante

Thanks for the tips against Tomb Kings, but this is a thread specifically for Vampire Counts (which are different enough from Tomb Kings to count), and we have threads for Tomb Kings. I don't mean to be harsh, but that is akin to hijacking (or at least diverting).

Necrarch Vampires? Am i spelling it wrong or something? You know, Zacharias the everliving, zombie dragons as rare choices, raise dead more faster than 2 VC armies combined?

Arante the biting blade is simply the cheapest way for a hunter to go hunting etheral units. Especially banshees who tend to lurk around the fringes. Although a unit of gnoblars can take them out due to static CR providing they past their fear test.

Even then if a hunter was nearby, theyd be using his leadership. Coz even if the little green n00blets did pass their fear test, they still have to weather 'the howling...'