Ogre Kingdoms Vs Dark Elves

Share your tips on how to deal with Dark Elves here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

Here’s a small article about some basic Dark Elf information.  I’m going to try to avoid ogre vs dark elf tactics as they are always debatable.

Glossary:
RnF – Rank and File
MSU – Multiple small units
COK – Cold One Knights
COC – Cold One Chariot
Rxb – Repeater Crossbows.
RBT – Reaper Bolt Thrower

Warriors
Warriors are cheap and are usually seen in one of two varieties, Spear or Rxb.

Rxb Warriors are generally seen in units of 10-15.  Their double shot means that a HUGE amount of bolts will fly through the air, but with the long range and double shot penalties this doesn’t mean they’ll do a large amount of wounds.  Expect them to excel against low armor low toughness non-skirmishing enemies.  If 15 are purchased you can expect them to reform to have ranks and double as a RnF use.  The cost of the Rxb and the lost rounds of shooting generally keep this tactic to a minimum.

Spear warriors are then usually seen in one of two varieties, MSU or RnF.  They can be upgraded to have a shield giving them a 5+ AS vs shooting and a possible 4+ AS if they ditch the spears in combat.  Most players will ditch the spears.

MSU are traditionally a 10 strong unit.  They are very maneuverable and are great at charge indirection, point denial, and traps.  They are neither a hammer or an anvil, just bait that can negate ranks.

RnF are traditionally either 15 or 20 strong, although they might be a little bigger.  The point is they are the second best anvil unit for the dark elves and with their low point costs they are affordable.  The big block approach is used to either protect mages or to try to get stuck into combat.

Dark Rider
Dark riders are arguably the best fast cavalry in the game.  You can expect to see five of them with a musician.  They can be upgraded to have Rxbs.  You can anticipate seeing every dark elf army you face with at least one unit of these, most often multiple units.  They aren’t particularly good at killing, but they are as fast as cavalry can get and excel at march blocking, whittling down with shooting and getting into position to flank/rear charge.  Having cavalry spears allows them to hit a bit harder on the charge but lack of armor really makes them easy to kill.

Corsairs
Corsairs used to be the mainstay unit in the dark elf army before the points drop on warriors.  They are still a great unit with the following bonus.  4+ AS to shooting and a 5+ AS in combat.  Their two attacks make them a very useful unit to have around and their ability to carry a magic banner is very nice.  Generally you’ll see them in a very similar configuration to spear warriors, either MSU (10-12) or RnF (15ish).  Their additional survivability to shooting makes them a popular choice to hide mages in.

Harpies

Harpies on paper are a very useful unit.  However they have one glaring flaw the keeps them from being all they can be.  They have an extremely low leadership and cannot use the leadership of the general.  Therefore, their targets are generally limited to non fear causers.  Their ability to fly and having two attacks each allow them to excel at taking out many warmachines and fast cavalry.  Additionally they are good at march blocking and claiming table quarters.

Shades

Shades have the same stat line as a dark elf warrior but skirmish, can scout, and have Rxbs.  This makes them good at whittling down opponents and march blocking but are very weak in combat.  They are generally considered the alternative to harpies against armies that cause fear.

Cold One Knights

Cold One Knights are a very unique but expensive unit.  Their strengths are a 2+ armor save, a high weapon skill, a hero level leadership, ability to take a magic banner, cause fear, hitting at str5 on the charge and having str4 mounts.  Not too shabby, even if they are expensive.  However, their weaknesses are an expensive command group, below average movement for cavalry, and most importantly stupidity.  This takes their reliability right out of the picture.  You can see 3 varieties of this unit.  First, 5 plain COKs.  US10 fear causer with 2+ armor save for fairly cheap.  Secondly, 5-6 with full command and possible banner.  Something that has a mild chance of taking on a RnF unit from the enemy.  Their cost has increased without a strong guarantee of success.  Lastly you can see a unit of 8-10 with 1-2 characters in there.  This unit starts to push the range of 800 pts.  While it should be able to steam roll a majority of units, it can easily be whittled down and or taken out of the game.  COKs are generally used as a hammer unit.

Cold One Chariot

Cold One Chariots are becoming the new mainstay in the dark elf army.  The have a 2 for 1 special slot ability and their cost is not prohibitive.  Some of their strengths are a T5 and a 4+ AS gives them survivability.  Additionally, their scythed wheels are a nice addition to the d5 str5 impact hits along with 4 str 4 attacks on the charge.  Like all cold one units their stupidity is a problem with their normal elven leadership.  A popular option is adding a character into the chariot boosting the US to 5 allowing it to negate ranks.  Like all chariots their movement is slow and can lag behind the rest of the elven army advance, but they hit hard and that’s always a benefit for elves.  One of the better cheaper hammer units available to elves.

Executioners

Executioners are the currently seen in a similar light to corsairs.  However, you will most often see them in smaller MSU sized units (10-12).  Their heavy armor upgrade now gives them a moderate increase in survivability and these GW wielding elves can pack a punch.  Their ability to take a magic banner enables them to be fielded in the hopes of taking on other RnF units, but their expense does not match their ability for a fully ranked unit.  Their distinguishing feature is their killing blow ability and higher than average weapon skill.  However, attacking last with the great weapon and having only one attack mitigates the true effectiveness of this unit.  Most often used vs more heavily armored adversaries like knights or dwarves.

Witch Elves

Another unit similar to the corsairs and executioners.  These crazy frenzied witches can dish out a ton of attacks and unlike executioners the numerous attacks actually give them a chance for their special ability to kick in, poison.  They are good at taking on high toughness low armored units like giants or ogres.  The formations for witch elves are generally varied, but due to them being without armor they are easily whittled down, therefore in general you’ll see slightly larger witch elf units so they can get into combat and be effective.  Finally, be aware that their frenzy is both a blessing and a curse and take precautions accordingly to mitigate the downside.


Note:  As you can tell I’ve compared many dark elf units to each other.  This is one of the main complaints for the dark elf book.  They are highly specialized and have problems making a comer-take-all list. 

-   Corsairs middle of the road, survivable with low strength attacks. 
-   Executioners, hit hard, high strength good against heavily armored units
-   Witch elves, tons of low strength attacks with poison, good against high toughness or low armor opponents

Black Guard

Another unit that was updated to make it an actual viable unit.  They blend many of the abilities of the previous units into one.  First and most importantly they are stubborn.  This means they make an excellent anvil unit.  Secondly, they have the special ability Eternal hatred, giving them hatred every round of combat not just the first combined with their high weapon skill this ensures most of your attacks will hit.  Third, they have heavy armor so they have some survivability.  Last, they have halberds making them strength four and allowing them to use their nice elven initiative.  One might think that all these bonuses combined you would see them in every dark elf army, but unfortunately you will not.  Their cost is prohibitive at 16 points per model they simply cost too much to field in a unit big enough to overcome the possibility of being outnumbered by a fear causing unit.  Finally, their infantry based anvil approach is counter to the fluidity you’ll find in the dark elf army list.  For dark elves to succeed they need to stick and move, black guards end up just sticking.

Reaper Bolt Throwers

Not much to say about these, everyone knows about them, 1 str 6 no armor save d3 wounds shot or 6 str 4 -2 armor save shots.  Pretty simple, mathematics say that its almost always beneficial to shoot the 6 shots but that home run of a single bolt is very tempting.  For their points they are worth taking, even just one, but their stationary positioning make them tough to guard especially for a dark elf army that is reliant on out maneuvering their opponent. 

Hydra
TBD

Placeholder until written

Has anyone got any tactics against a very shooty Dark Elf Army? I cant get close to the dark elf opponent i play against because he uses so many dark elf crossbowmen. If i do get a unit to charge it gets destroyed because of their stand-and-shoot.

I haven't much experience against these guys... but Gorgers seem like a good idea, pop up behind their lines

My friend plays a very heavy DE Shooter and Magic army. I have found the best way to deal with this army is to field bigger units of ogres: 5-6 with frontage of four total (three plus character) with Ragbanners and Rune Maws. Put up a flank screen of Gnob Fighters (also good for Rune Maw redirect) and Move as fast as possible. If you can, stay behind terrain and lure the h2h units into your charge range. Gorgers are great, as well as Hunters. Use the Hunter with Mastondon armor (kitties are really optional if there are not a lot of wizards) and send him out in the open to distract Hvy Bolt Throwers and magic, and either shoot at them to disable, or lure h2h by shooting at them.

As long as you can make it to h2h with DE Shooty army and maintain a solid front rank, you've won. They cannot hold against us in combat. Hope this helps!

I have played quite a few games against a close combat DE army, with 4 units of Dark Riders and 2 COC.

First suggestion I might give is take 2 units of 2 leadbelchers, and deploy them so, that opponentäs dark riders couldn't come near. They are very good fast units, but with leadbelchers you will kill them, and get nice victory points. In that way you can protect flanks.

COK and COC have a chance to fail stupidity tests which might disrupt their ranks a little. So be ready to capitalize on that. It is best to try to avoid chariots, because they will really destroy any unit without S7. Or Bait them with a unit of 3 naked bulls.

Units of COK aren't that scary in my opinion, they are not very hard to take out, avoid or flank charge. Best units against them as far as I know are ironguts, bulls and yhetees.

Gnoblars can help you, either by guarding good zones for harpies to land, or engaging in close combat with warriors etc, with your general near.

It is easy to break black guards.

Use gorgers to come on board in a place, where opponent has out-manouvered you, and put them somewhere, so that opponent can't charge you and would lose time.

These are all only advices and from my experience, best is to learn yourself, because some of it might not alway work.

1) A Gorger
2) Another Gorger
3) Keep the rest of your army way back.

Charging towards a gunline is playing your opponent's game. If he's gonna go all fortress on you, to hell with him. Keep your units well back, hold and contest table quarters, and send the Gorgers in from behind. Boring? Maybe - but who's fault is that?

That won't work at all. Dark Elf gunlines are fast, and have good range. Your opponent can easily close in on you and get the range needed to kill. You might be able to avoid fighting an Dwarf gunline, but a Dark Elf army can get close to you and shoot, and run away when neccessary. And a good Delf gunline will have plenty of repeater crossbow wielding Dark Riders, which you will most certainly not be able to catch.

So what IS the answer, then?

Skrag and his gorgers, a giant to draw fire (I know he is  an expensive pin cushion and he takes away from more gorgers, but most people will fire at him and he is tough), and several small units of bulls, ironguts, leadbelchers (two units of 2?), and maybe some trappers for a diversion?.  I'd offer up my bulls and giant as fodder and hope that skrag, the gorgers and guts could get through.  I'd probably line up a unit of guts by or behind the giant and try to get my opponent to concentrate his fire on one or the other.  I may put my trappers in this area too, if I could, to further distract and annoy my opponent.  The belchers would be there for flank protection.

Anyway this is how I would try it and if it didn't work I would take what did work well and refine from there.

By the way, I don't know if there is AN answer (at least not a single one).  A lot of this is going to depend on your play style and how you use terrain, set up your army, etc...  I know this sounds trite (and I don't mean it to be) but you will eventually find YOUR answer by taking some of the advice given here and creating your own style to combat the shooty DE's.

Thanks,
JC

I certainly don't know how to beat a Delf gunline, other than with loads of luck.

I agree, he choses the fights, not you.

Bonecrusher is still perfect against him. The problem is : they will see it coming and will try to dispell it at all costs.

I managed to kill him with my Mournfangs though. That was a lot of attacks and even 2+ wardsaves can be missed. Otherwise, Leadbelchers aren't that bad against him also, but as Auere said, they probably wont have many occasions to fire at him.

This is my first after action post so if it isnt laid out properly I apologise.

Played Ogres vs DE last night and it went very badly for the Ogres. Was really a test of running a Horde but was still disapointed.

My list. (approx 1500 points)

SM lvl4, Hellheart, IF
Bruiser, BSB flame banner, IF,HA

16 Ogres with IF and FC

3 MF Cav, dragonhide banner and FC, IF,HA

Sabre

Sabre

Ironblaster

DE list

Sorceror lvl 4 on pegasus

20 Crossbowmen

50 Spearmen in Horde

Hydra and Beast masters

Scouting unit(cant remember there name)

Turn 1
Scouts try to deploy behind but no room so set up half way down board and off to one side.

DE go first

Sorceror on Pegasus flys over next to Scouts about half way down the board on the left side.

Spearmen, Hydra and Crossbows walk forward.

Magic.

Sorceror casts a hex on my Horde that drops the strength by 1, I dispell the 2nd one.

SHooting

Crossbowmen take out Ironblaster in one go(only rolled half the shots before it went down)

Scouts fire at Ogres and drop one to 2 wounds.

Ogres turn

Sabre moves up one side along with mournefangs, can only move normal as river in the way.

Horde does the same trying to get over the river so in charge range.

Other Sabre moves to try and bait the scouts/sorceror.

Magic.

In a desperate attmept I cast the Maw, full power and it casts, unfortunately with irresistable force. I roll and end up taking out 2 Ogres.

On top of that I rolled a misfire on the scatter for the template so he got to place it, right on my Mournefangs and scattered 2 inches, dropped a MF.

DE turn 2

Doesnt move anyone.

Magic

I use Hellheart and cause him to miscast. He rolls and gets a 7, doesnt hurt caster but anything else within base contact, he is a lone model so nothing. He lost 5 power dice so at least that casting was done. I dispelled the HEx(RIP) spell he cast in round 1.

Shooting.

Fired at my Ogres with crossbows and dropped another 2. His scouts didnt do much.

Ogres turn 2.

Had to go for the charge.

Left his spearmen as they were a horde and would have got 4 ranks.

Horde failed the charge

Mournefangs charge Hydra, failed.

Sabres charge, failed.

Magic

Poor roll on power dice so tried to get Trollguts off but he dispelled.

DE turn 3.

He charged his spearmen into the front of the Horde and the Hydra into the flank.

Magic.


Cast a hex on me for -2 strength that went off with irresistable force. Rolled on the miscast table and another 7 so does nothing to him but he loses the rest of his power dice.

Combat.

Hydra causes fear and I fail Ld, reroll for Battle standard, fail again, down to WS 1.

His Spearmen pass the test.

Needless to say it did not go well. He seemed to cause a lot of wounds and I could barely save any.

They lost combat and he run them down so we called the game there.



It was a risk running the Horde and only the second time I have used it but I dont think I will use it again in anything below 2000 points.

Is this the usual against DE's or was this just really bad luck/poor play on my part?

Looks like really bad luck. I would get mournfang up to 4, I find that to be my magic number, (you can drop the champion from that unit, i dont think its worth the cost)

I also don't usually run the hellheart bellow 1500 pts. I usually run just the scroll at that point.

Against a list like that, the spearmen and crossbow men can be really easy to get to run through braingobler or fail there leadship since there general is flying around (hopefully outside of leadership bubble.)

Your luck was extremely poor.  You had a +1 to win the first turn, but lost that roll.  To fail charges with both sabres and the mournfang in the same turn is really unlucky.  Both sabretusks and mournfang have Swiftstride and should reliably hit charges at least 17 inches away (15 for mournfang).  I'm not sure why you were desperate (and decided to cast the Maw), at that time it didn't seem like you were really in any trouble.  However, it is obviously very unlucky to have the miscast + misfire result.  And then to fail a rerollable Ld8 test for fear ... it just wasnt your day.

And his luck was very very good.  In addition to taking no damage or loss of spells / levels from two miscasts, his shooting was amazingly lucky.  On average, 20 repeater crossbowmen should only do a single wound to an ironblaster in 1 shot  (40 shots needing 6's to hit due to move and shoot, long range, and multiple shots = 7x Str 4 hits needing 6's to wound vs T6 = 1 wound and the ironblaster still gets a 6+ armor save, ironblaster should survive with 4 wounds left).

Despite all the bad / good luck, there are a few things I think could help your list / tactics:

-  If you are going to horde, run the Runemaw banner on your BSB.
-  Consider the greedy fist build for your SM (aka Fencer's Blades, Dispel Scroll, Greedy Fist).
-  Don't cast the Maw... really, don't do it.
-  If you're horde isn't stubborn from some other rule, then make sure to cast Spinemarrow on it.
-  Cast many smaller spells when you have low power dice.  It forces your opponent to decide what to dispel and will result in you getting at least a few of your spells off.  It also reduces the chance of miscast.
-  Don't take a champion with your mournfang.  It's a waste of points and you want your standard bearer to be the last to die (in order to use the full benefit of the banner).
-  As you suggested, perhaps don't use a horde below 2000 pts.
-  Microwave your dice and buy some new ones.

Hope this helps!

Snark

Thanks guys,

I realised after about the third roll that the dice were against me lol.

I will drop the Champion from the MF's have them in another list and I already know where to put the 10 points.

Desperate probably wasnt the right word to use for casting the Maw, probably more frustrated. Plus I had only tried to use it once before and it didnt work.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

The biggest issue for Ogres is the DE Pegasus Lord of Unkillable Cockblocking.  He hurts us more than most armies because of how few units we tend to have, greatly magnifying his ability to contain a large part of our army.  Most of our counters to him are situational choices of magic lore (Death, Bonecrucher, ect), the suboptimal giant (certain results bypass his saves), or ignoring him and hoping you can win without a big chunk of your army.  So far, the best counter I have had to him is charging an Ironblaster at him and keeping it in the LD bubble, since it takes him a while to chew through the T6.

Witch Elves are the number two issue, assuming you did not bring Mournfangs to the table.  If you are rocking the Heavens SM, Curse of the Midnight Wind will completely de-testicalify them, as will a solo butcher charging in.  If you are like me and do not run the cats, then gunning down as many as you can becomes a must.  Flame Cage, Fire Cloak, and Pistol Maneaters work wonders here.

The other stuff in a DE list is either typical fare (light shooting, lore of shadow) or things our take all comers options typically deal well with (Hydras).

I'm most afraid of Witch elves, Executioners and their magic.
Frenzied poison attacks and killing blow = Dead Ogres...

Killing Blow won't affect Monstrous Infantry luckily for us.

Poison not as bad as it used to be with 5+ AS and 6+ Parry for Ogre (Bulls).

The T6 of the Ironblasters and T5 Scrappies will make it hard for the DE shooting to wound them needing 6's.

I thought DE repeaters were str 3 with ap? Still needed sixs to wound anyways but man that was some awesome luck that he hit and wounded you on those rolls and that you failed 5 5+ saves.

Killing Blow won't affect Monstrous Infantry luckily for us.

Poison not as bad as it used to be with 5+ AS and 6+ Parry for Ogre (Bulls).

The T5 of the Ironblasters and Scrappies will make it hard for the DE shooting to wound them needing 6's.

Most witch elves come with AP banner. Witch Elves are the most mean opponent in the game for ogres. Reroll to hit, poison and ap? You just got to be shitting me - those witches are going to eat flame templates and lead before I even consider combat.

Don't forget that some come with the flaming banner, too.  If you see a DE player chuckle when you 6 dice on trollguts, this is probably why.  And, of course, theres the old grab every dice in the room and throw it on Mind Razor + Cauldron Buff for completely erasing any Ogre unit in existance.  Thats good for 38 S8 wounds on average, if the girls are in horde formation, so if you have more than 12 ogres you might get to swing back?

I have a regular opponent that plays a 60 large unit of witch elves with helbrom (or whatever her name is) that plays havoc with everything but gnoblars... With trappers

I have a regular opponent that plays a 60 large unit of witch elves with helbrom (or whatever her name is) that plays havoc with everything but gnoblars... With trappers

I would love to play against this guy!

I take Hellebron is the general, making witch elves core, thus filling 600 points all in witches?

Man, what fun. Hellebron is about the easiest character to kill in the game. Sure she hits like a truck, but every rank and file can kill her easily. Either snipe her with some Maneaters or sacrifice a unit of Bulls to kill her off. She has t3 and no save whatsoever, but is worth 450vp.

And those 60 frenzied witches are easily diverted to anywhere you like. Then hit them in the flank with 4 Mournfang with Dragonhide banner and see them die screaming.

D...

You must have missed the part of the conversation where we mentioned Occum's Mind Razor.  Plus, Hellebron will step up and kill more than half of the Mournfang before they even get to swing with her 8-10 hatred S10 attacks at WS9.  She is relatively easy to kill, but odds of sniper her out before she facerolls something are pretty low.  There are also tooled up manbane assasins to consider....

Agreed, I rather shoot them to bits.

you only charge the mournfang in after you kill Hellebron offcourse, which is not that hard. 1 round of sniping shots should do it, two rounds max and she is dead. Or else send a unit of 9 ogres in there, they take some 20 wounds perhaps, but then the 3 remaining Ogres kill her easily.

D...

Shes a three wound model who will likely have a 5+ ward save most of the game before they reach combat.  Assuming the DE player is completley retarded and does not screen with harpies, you would need a dozen maneaters with sniper and poison to be able to sniper her out in one turn of shooting, on average.  When was the last time you saw a dozen maneaters in an army, especially one that already had mournfangs in it?  And we already detailed how 9 ogres would vaporize before they ever got to swing with Occums in play.  Don't forget you need 5s to hit her, so assuming she is sitting in the middle of the unit and not on a corner, you lose three ogres to Witches in horde formation, even without mind razor, before the four (at most) you could put on her even get to swing.  Then she drops another two ogres, on average.  This leaves 10 attacks at most directed at her, needing 5s then 3s to hit her, for roughly 2.16 wounds, on average.  So even in optimal charge situations without Mind Razor up, a nine pack of Bulls fails to kill her and gets vaporized by her and the witches for the attempt, losing by 8 on average.  You can say that an Ogre buff will tip the balance, but then so will mind Razor and even with Regen or STR going, she still survives and the Bulls lose by at least 5 on average rolls, without mind razor.

She is frail, but far from helpless, especially against ogres.  And the real horror here it that she is among the weaker DE options out there....

Ok, so now it is 60 witches, Hellebron, 2 units of harpies, a cauldorn and a lvl 4 shadow sorceress.

Well, thats about 1650 points allready, purely to make this unit work. What else does this army have?


On the sniping maneaters. 6 of them score on averige 2 poisoned wounds per shooting phase with 12 shots.

Screening harpies can easily be removed by sabretusks.

We can go back and forth with this for quite some time, but what I truly meant to say is that Dark Elves can be far more devastating in other ways instead of fielding a unit of 60 witches with Hellebron.

The unit can easily be kept out of combat for some turns with gnoblars and sabretusks. Take out the Cauldron and the unit the sorceress is in...Hell, just kill everything besides the witch elves.

I'd rather face a frenzied 1000 point unit that can only perform in the combat phase and has to overrun on anything I put in its way then say 3x20 crossbowmen shooting 120 bolts at me from turn one (witches cost), together with a 12 man Cold one knight unit or 2 Hydrae (Hellebrons cost).

D...

Who said anything about 60 in one unit?  And how exactly are the Sabers moving the harpies out of the way before the shooting phase?  30 with full command runs 350ish, the cauldron 225, and those are all thats really needed to dork over any Ogre unit in the game that does not have magic help, outside of mournfangs.  I've actually played this matchup from both sides of the table and I can tell you flat out that it is as ugly as it gets for Ogres.  And I have played with and against snipereaters and they are not worth their points.  Honestly if it was so easy to snipe down characters with Bs4 24" guns, then empire players would be pamming hocklands with 36" range and the reroll prayer, but you don't see that because they have already worked out that its a losing tactic.

I have a regular opponent that plays a 60 large unit of witch elves with helbrom (or whatever her name is) that plays havoc with everything but gnoblars... With trappers

This is the post I initially responded to Phazael, hence the 60 strong unit.

Anyway, I am not trying to argue over this with you. I am merely of the opinion that there are worse things to face when playing against Dark elves then a 1000 point witch elf unit which has another 500 points or so to support it. That is all.

D...

When that is said, one thing is for certain...:

Witch elf hordes are ability for points one of the most deadly oppositions you can face. And against ogres they are just insanely effective. A horde of witch elves with banner of murder can easily kill 5 or 6 ironguts outright before they strike back - which roughly means that they can kill nearly their own points worth in a single round of combat against ogres!!!

Shoot for pitys sake, and stay the heck away from these nutties!


Hellebron builds can be nasty, but that is not my main fear...

Now:

40 witch elves with banner of murder
40 executioners with a death hag with ASF banner
supported by a cauldron...
...and a supreme surceress with dagger and shadow magic in a spearmen bunker behind them
+2 war hydras
+support...

Thats pretty mean...

Huge "unbeatable" hordes ar less scary than flexible and fast armies that hit you hard in every single phase, and DE excel at this if you want them to.

I usually try to kite the "all the eggs in one basket"- hoards. If you can get them to follow you off the table edge you even get a "free" turn in wich to deal with whats left on the table. With the DA hatered, this usually isnt even that hard. Sure you have to build your own army with the appropriate units for this, but on the other hand OK have some very nice (=cheap) options in the way of sacrificial units.

40 witch elves with banner of murder
40 executioners with a death hag with ASF banner
supported by a cauldron...
...and a supreme surceress with dagger and shadow magic in a spearmen bunker behind them
+2 war hydras
+support...

I would think that most ogre lists would have tools to deal with these things.

Units of gnoblar trappers are great against hordes, especially frenzied ones.  Even stand and shoot can be worthwhile when your target is T3. 

Mathhammer suggest that if the 40 witch elves charge 10 gnoblar trappers, then stand and shoot will kill 1 model and dangerous terrain tests will kill 7 more.  Have another unit of 10 gnoblar trappers set up for the overrun, and dangerous terrain will kill 6 more.  Suddenly that horde doesnt seem so scary anymore (having lost a rank and a half and about 140 pts worth of models for the 100 pts of gnoblars you sacrificed).  Plus it should be in a decent spot for a nice flank charge by your mournfangs (who eat witch elves alive thanks to their high armor saves).

Same thing for the Executioners, especially if you march the gnoblars to 1" away.  Even without frenzy, your opponent now has to either charge the gnoblars or spend precious time reforming and moving around them.   You should use that time to pepper the executioners with leadbelcher fire (Str 4 and AP will negate their 5+ armor).  Just don't let him overrun into your LB's.

As for the sorceress and hydras, our standard methods of dealing with them apply (ironblasters, hellheart, firebellys, etc).

I don't mean to imply that DE's are a pushover just that as an Ogre, you should have the proper tools at your disposal to deal with them.

-Snark

hi all.
I agree that we have a lot of viable options against a lot of what DE can present, but there are a few things that I haven't been able to control yet.

- dual lvl 4 sorceress - one shadow and one death/dark
- two nobles on pegasus - one bsb w.PoK, the other half str. on shooting/spells etc (magic item I can't remeber the name) and a 2+ rerollable armor save-

These guys - especially the two nobles  bugs the hell out of me. They pick their battles wisely and run thundertust/ironblaster of the board the turn they charge and then lock my big units up untill cavalry arives.

they allways saves dispel dice to bonecrusher which otherwise is a decent way to kill them.

Any suggestions? thanks

- Morten

Its tough, you'll just have to weather it.

use sabretusks to keep him away from your Iblasters(make it impossable for him to make a charge)

Hope he can't dispell bonecruncher.

If he's dispelling bonecruncher, he isn't dispelling your other spells. Trollguts and Toothcracker away!

Cast Lore of Heavens on the Pegasus and laugh as your opponent foolishly declines to dispel, for the Pegasus will die to gusts of wind  .

hi all.
I agree that we have a lot of viable options against a lot of what DE can present, but there are a few things that I haven't been able to control yet.

- dual lvl 4 sorceress - one shadow and one death/dark
- two nobles on pegasus - one bsb w.PoK, the other half str. on shooting/spells etc (magic item I can't remeber the name) and a 2+ rerollable armor save-

These guys - especially the two nobles  bugs the hell out of me. They pick their battles wisely and run thundertust/ironblaster of the board the turn they charge and then lock my big units up untill cavalry arives.

they allways saves dispel dice to bonecrusher which otherwise is a decent way to kill them.

Any suggestions? thanks

- Morten

The Lore of Death can solve these problems easily.  With the greedy fist, you can strip those Lvl 4's down to zero.  For the nobles, both Caress of Laniph and Fate of Bjuna ignore armor saves and wound without a strength score (bypassing the PoK and the Ring of Darkness - the other magic item you mentioned).

And as Grey Templar mentioned, if he is busy dispelling your damaging spells, you should have no problem getting off a soulblight / doom and darkness, so you should easily be collecting victory points from his other units.

-Snark

Hi everyone, this is my first post so if I screw up a few things please excuse me. I have just started playing ogres and I will be playing my first match later this week. The guy im playing has a large dark elf collection so I have no idea what hes going to be running. What I do know from playing him before he generally only runs one LV 4 shadows/death and a few fighty characters. He loves his bolt throwers and will most likely have a big block of black guard. He isn’t an overly competitive gamer and will most likely keep the cheese to a minimum. That being said i would still like to bring something competitive and give him a real go. This is the list I’m thinking of taking:

Lords
323 - Slaughter Master: lv4, Lore of great maw, iron fist, scepter of stability, gold sigil sword, iron curse icon

Heroes
198 - Bruiser: BSB, runemaw, heavy armour, ironfist
145 - Firebelly – lv 1, dispel scroll
120 - Firebelly – lv 1

Core
480 - 10 Ironguts – Full command w Look our gnoblar, banner of discipline
50 – 10 Gnoblars - trappers
50 – 10 Gnoblars - trappers
50 – 10 Gnoblars - trappers

Special
172 - 4 Leadbelchers
172 - 4 Leadbelchers
168 - 3 Maneaters – Heavy armour, addition HW, Scouts, poison
42 - 2 Sabertusks
42 - 2 Sabertusks
140 - 2 Mournfangs: Heavy armour, ironfists

Rare
170 - Iron Blaster
170 - Iron Blaster

Total: 2492

The SM and the bruiser goes with the ironguts, forming the center of my line. Trapper and saber tusks can be speed bumps and re-direct his bigger blocks. Maneaters, tusks and the 2 mournfangs can hunt machines. Iron blasters to counter his ranged units and lead belchers (w firebellies) to soften up units before I hit them. The Mournfangs were kinda added in at the end to take up my remaining points (plus I have the models and really want to use them ) The two of them should be small enough for him to ignore initially and if I can get a flank charge off with them they should be enough to disrupt a unit. What do you guys think? Im open to suggestions and criticism, thanks in advance.

Hey guys, playing a decent dark elf player on this coming friday for a club tourney, it's 750 points and need some tips
his (rough) list
Mage
lvl 2 (i think)
Lore of death (quell surprise)

20 odd RXbow men

20 odd spearmen

RBT

Hydra

my list:
firebelly
dispel scroll
POS

4 ogres
AHW

6 Ironguts
FC
SoD

Ironblaster

My ideas were that i stick the ironblaster in the middle of my army and try get flaming sword of rhuin on it then try pop his hydra with an auto-wounding cannon which does d6 wounds
they only thing i'm worried about is him trying to big-ass cast purple sun, if he doesn't IF i'll scroll it, magic is the only thing that scares me atm

Mr. Master18: it may be a rough first game against a dark elves player as they are a hard beginner match. Good Luck though i feel you will be fine. Firstly try to fit in a Hellheart, it will tie up 1 magic phase for sure and if your lucky will drop the level of their level 4 mage to about 2 or 1 :p

Also you only really need units of 1 sabretusk ivee learned that any more are only good if you expect to soak up small amounts of fire and want to live with a wound or 2.
 
Id TRY to fit in another mournfang but if not no big deal. The only thing to watch out for is 2 hydras as ive known multiple dark elves players to run these bad boys and manage to cause large chunks of damage. look into banner of eternal flame for either mournfang or maneaters

Hope this helps you on your next match
Guts and Glory

Cast Lore of Heavens on the Pegasus and laugh as your opponent foolishly declines to dispel, for the Pegasus will die to gusts of wind  .

Afraid not as the hits just go to the rider who can handle some S4 hits

Most Dark Elf armies will include the Armour Piercing Banner (probably on the Black Guard or Witches and Banner of Eternal Flame (usually Witches).

the cauldron witch elf horde list dies as quick as it was born - if you see it, ironblaster the hag and cauldron off for some free points then laugh as leadbelchers or maneaters clean up the rest now they no longer have their 5++

The big issue now is the new DE avoidance list consisting of plenty of dark riders and double Warlocks.

I would suggest firing everything you possibly can including every magic missle you can at the warlocks as a first priority!

Characters on pegs - there will usually always be two! one has the cloak of twilight for a 3++ against shooting. If there are no karibdyss/hydras/cualdrons for easy points....by all means go nuts!

Recommend Maw Magic. the +T/Regen/Stubborn spells are greate and brain gobbler can always mess up a unit of Warlocks/Dark Riders in your way!

I am going to guess that the DE players in your area have not gotten around to slotting Life and Light for their wizards.  Dropping the Cauldron itself is a lot harder when it is healing constantly and T5/Regenerating Witches are pretty much impossible to gun down before they hit you, at which point even a small unit of witches will pretty much destroy any ogre unit that lacks 2+ armor saves.   Worse yet, one cast of Pha's can render an entire round of Ogre shooting nearly worthless.  Leadies will likely lose badly in the shooting war, as well.

Shooting/Magic at the Brolocks is also a losing battle, because the ward save will pretty much make any efforts on that front meaningless.  You will lose your shirt to Doombolt before you ever make a useful dent in the unit.  Ogres really have no workable answer to that unit, especially if it is sporting a character or two.  Gnobies to tarpit is about all I have been able to come up with.  The avoidance list is not as big a deal for Ogres, outside the BroLocks, because we tend to pack enough light shooting to stand back out of the murder zone.  Kill small units near the Brolocks and hope they pooch panic has been my main tactic against them to this point.

Could a slaughtermaster with the crown, fencer's blades and glittering scales working in conjunction with heavens magic have any decent shot of tying that horrid unit of witch elves? The immune to poison thing makes me think it's worth a shot but with the cauldron giving rerolls to wound I can see him going down really quickly.

I don't think Dark Elves are a good match up for us at all so I can see myself castling and trying to pick up a few points with my shooting/lucky comet.

My thought on how you handle Dark Elves is to run shooty.  I would almost go as far to say that if your meta has them, you almost need to build your list like you are tailoring against dark elves (sort of how it was under the old DE book) to have a shot at winning.  With that in mind, a solo SM with the Trickster Helm rocking lore of heavens can do wonders.  Drop Comet.  Run out and cock block the witch block.  Hope that your remaining shooters can do the work against the rest of the army.

So how about Gold sigil sword for stopping the rerolls to hit then trickster helm and crown of command?

The sword is sort of too situational.  The helm with an Ironfist coupled with a scroll and the sword of striking can make you workable against multiple lists (especially when backed by Lore of Heavens) and give you a very strong advantage against witch spam.  Assuming you have some time to chew up the witches a little with shooting, going in with the solo SM should give you a consistent win or makeable break test.  Of course, the crown is always helpful.

gotta say i've not yet seen Life magic in a DE army. Light councils came and went very quickly.

In the UK no-one really even takes an actual wizard anymore as double warlocks are so powerful/multi-use.

Will be trying the ogres against DE tonight so will report back on Monday morning

gotta say i've not yet seen Life magic in a DE army.

I am running Life magic in my current Dark Elf list. There are plenty of useful spells in the lore, increasing T, giving out regen and growing models back all do wonders for keeping my army going. The kicker is the lore attribute though, helps keep my Cauldron of Blood trucking along. If that's on full wounds then it makes my Hydras gain their wounds back that little bit faster than they do by themselves.

Yeah since that post I have seen it used in quite a few successful GT lists. Ben Curry did very well with a life list at SCGT