Ogre Kingdoms Vs Bretonnians

Post your tips for fighting Bretonnians here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here.  Please note, the tips within Archive threads may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and/or newer Warhammer editions.

Being a Breton player myself, I an give you some advice on beating them.

Knights of The Realm: These guys are the core of a Breton players army. They are 1+ like bulls so you will always face a unit of them. Most Breton units gain a free champion. This is nasty with the extra attack. Remember that Ironguts are can openers, so take them in their tens! At the end of the day, all KOTR are humans, so have S3 and T3. This is where the ogre elavates. Their 2+ save is easily combated by ogre clubs and great weapons.

Knight Errant: Considering you can have KOTR for 4pts extra per model, these guys will be rarer. They lose the Ld8 and they gain the Impetuous rule. They have a kind of frenzy. This means that at the end of the movement phase, they must take a Ld test or they have to charge. If they fail and charge, they will be Immune To Phychology for the rest of the turn. The same rules really apply for KOTR appart form this.

Men-At-Arms: At about 100pts for a decent unit, they are quite cheap. They only get Ld5 though which is their main downfall. They will rarely pass the fear test that is required for charging ogres and therefore the Breton player will probably not take a unit against you. If they do, they are farily good and have halbards. This doesn't make them a No.1 priority, but make sure you don't forget about them.

Peasant Bowmen: These are not entirly shocking. They will sit back and pik of your ogres from behind their stakes. These stakes are maybe the biggest problem for the ogres. They negate all charge bonuses. This would include Bull Charge and striking first on the charge. Seeing this, the Breton player will take these a-plenty. Try and charge them around the flank or rear and that'll teach those peasants!

Questing Knights: The main differences with these is the Questing Vow and the Great Weapon. The great weapon is effectively like using a lance all the time. The Questing Vow grants the model with the ability to re-roll failed panic tests and they will ignore panic caused by fleeing allies. Apart from those differences and a slightly better stat line (most noticabally S4), they are basically the same as KOTR.

The RAF: Nobody else seems to have conquered a way of combating these annoyances. I don't think I ill succeed either but I'll give it a try. They have only one major downfall: 55pts. That makes the minimum unit of 3 165pts. They have a 0-1 restriction, although this is removed if the player has a Lord on Pegasus. That is all the advice I can give right now, so good luck in beating the RAF and maybe one day, someone will crack it!

Grail Reliquae: A rather strange unit you may say, but nonetheless a rather deadly one. They are 0-1 and the maximum number of battle pilgrims is 24, so you may not create a completely cheese army with them. They are stubborn and suffer from hatred. The shrine itslef has 6 wounds which only start to decrease once the Battle Pilgrims have all died. As said before, you will only be facing (maximum) one of these even if the player decides to use them at all.

Mounted Yeomen: Fast Cavalry is the first thing to point out. Don't let them get round you. They also carry bows and may take shields. They are a deadly unit at only 15pts per model. Again like all peasants, their Ld value is not one to be afraid of. Make sure you make them run in the first turn of combat.

Grail Knights: Don't believe that these are just KOTR in shinier armour and with cloaks on. They are liturally Living Saints. They are 0-1 and the maximum unit number is 12. The Tenderizer would be good against these as they can all be challenged. The Grail Vow grants the model the Immune To Phycology rule. They will not be afraid to charge a unit of ogres. All their attacks count as magical as well, so a Ward Save aint gonna help you.

Field Trebuchets: These will sit at the back of the army and pummel. They are not a combat unit like the Scrappy and will therefore be a priority for trappers. It isn't very accurate and will not cause much damge to an ogre unit. If it hits you, then as long as you only have 1 rank then you're alright.

Damsels and Prophetesses: These are little worry. They are your average wizard(ess) and will be easily combated by butchers and or slaughtermasters. If you can beat any wizard, then you can beat a damsel. They aren't exactly Slanns when it comes to magic and will pose little threat. Make sure you do take a butcher because you wouldn't want to be zapped by a girl, would you?

Paladins: All Breton armies must take at least one Paladin to be the BSB. They are cumpulsory, but this is not exactly a weakness. Most armies will take 2, one to be the general, but there is always the possiblity od having a damsel as the general in 1000pts. They are KOTR and all the other varieties put together. The Bretin player can choose which vow and Magic Items he wants to combat you. The selection of Magic Banners for the BSB is average. Their big 100pt banner is useless against ogres because all it does is negate rank bonus. They will probably choose the Warbanner.

Lords: These are Paladins but much better and without the 1+ rule and all that. They may create the RAF or choose to ride a Hippogryph. As with Paladins they may be upgraded to be of any vow. They are your average Lord to be honest and will pose the same sort of threat as other such Lords.

Hippogryphs: Hunter+Beastkiller=Dead Hippogryph and rather annoyed Breton player. They are deadly of left alone, so kill them quickly. If you don't have a hunter, take a tyrant with Daemon-Killer Scars and that will negate it's terror bonus. The Daemon-Killer Scars may just change name to Hippogryph-Killer Scars!


Lance Formation: This means that any unit that charges you, if in this formation, will get bonus attacks.


A,B,C,D,F,G and I will be able to attack with their lances. This can pose a problem for Ogre units, as the extra attacks are nasty.

The Peasants Duty: Although peasants have very low LD, thy may use the Ld of a friendly, non-fleeing knight unit within 6" of them. Also, banners that are caught will give you no VPs!

The Knights Vow: Basically the Ignore Friendly Panic rule. This applies to all freindly units.

The Questing Vow: The model may use no lance but may re-roll failed panic tests.

The Grail Vow: All attacks made by a model with the Grail Vow count as Magical. The model always gains the Blessing Of The Lady, even if the army didn't pray.

The Blessing Of The Lady: This means that you will almost always get the first turn. It gives all models a 6+ WS and a 5+ WS against S5 or higher. This bonus is lost if the unit panics.

In general, the battle will be fast and furious. Make sure you get the charge in rather than them. You have weapons that are can openers against 2+ saves and an ogre club already makes it 4+. They have some annoying units (namely the RAF) which need to be dealt with quickly. Make sure you have the upper hand. The battle will be won from the first turn. Always try to outmanouvre him and that will gain you an advantage. Trappers are useful for halting a unit of knights before it's got far. Use gnoblars to protect your flanks and rears and you may do Ok. All in all, good luck and have fun can opening.

Thanks

I have a few things to add to this section:

First of all, because of the blessing of the lady, you will 100% of the time get to go first.  I'm sure of this because of the high strength ogres.  The blessing gives them a 6+ ward save for str 1-4, and a 5+ ward save against str 5+.  This is important because it will effect your strategy. 

In general:

Str 4 (bull with ironfist)
---- 3+ AS, 6+ WS ---> 4/6 + 1/6 -->  83% chance of save

Str 4 (bull with club)
---- 4+ AS, 6+ WS ---> 3/6 + 1/6 -->  67% chance of save

Str 6 (iron gut with GW)
---- 5+ AS, 5+ WS ---> 2/6 + 2/6 --> 67% chance of save

So, unfortunately the Ironguts aren't the can openers previously mentioned, however they do give you a 2+ wound vs, the 3+ to wound for the bulls.

A few missing pieces/ corrections to the previous post:

All Bretonnian knight units get a free champion.  The only exception is the grail, but that's because every model is considered a unit champion.

Knight Errants - They have a (Errantry banner) banner that allows them str6 on the charge. Their impetuous rule can allow you to use things such as leadbelchers and trappers to bait them more easily.

Questing Knights - You'll see a LOT fewer of these with the new rules.  They no longer get the +2 str from having a great weapon, but of course are all still str 5.  Remember they only have a 3+ AS in combat so they are a bit easier to kill.

:  For people unfamiliar with this term (RAF->Royal Air Force), it refers to "Pegasus Knights", and generally only when a lord choice is taken on a pegasus thusly removing the 0-1 restriction.  Pegasus knights are T4 (only thing in the army), and the pegsus have 2 str 4 attacks themselves.  They can hit you hard, but suffer greatly from not generating combat res or being able to negate ranks (flying unit)

Grail Knights -   This is untrue.  Their magical attacks do not negate ward saves, we are not demonic.

Trebuchet - Unlike the previous poster I would very much warn you to be careful of this monster.  It is a str 5 stone thrower, which means it will damage your ogres if it hits.  Stone throwers give no armor save and the hole causes d6 wounds.  This could very much ruin your day.  At less than 100 points, I wouldn't blow this off.  It is as accurate as any other stone thrower.

Damsels - They give MR1/2 so I would not use gutmagic on a unit with a damsel.  They are generally used for defense more than offense.

Blessing of the lady.  Remember, Bretonnians don't often bait and flee with their knights.  If they flee that unit loses their blessing. 

Tactics:
Bretonnians hit hard, but are TERRIBLE at drawn out battles.  Their lance gets all the charges on ONLY the first round of combat. 

Beware of any unit that has a BSB, with the +1 CR for his presence, the virtue of duty for another +1 combat res and the presence of a war banner you can really pump up the static combat rez.

Lastly, bretonnians have okay leadership.  K.Errants are 7, KotR are 8, QK are 8 (re-roll), PegK are 8, M.Yeomen are 6, P.Bow are 5, Treb is 5(6 with 10pt upgrade), M@Arms are 5 (6 with champ) so you can panic them, the best they can get is a 9 with a lord.

I would like to add a comment to the calculations above.


It is hard to kill a knight in full armour, but not that hard. You have to calculate the chance of  failing the AS and WS and multiply them. To get the chance of save you subtract of 1.
So the chances are:
Str 4 (bull with ironfist)
---- 3+ AS, 6+ WS ---> 1-(2/6*5/6) -->  72% chance of save

Str 4 (bull with club)
---- 4+ AS, 6+ WS ---> 1-(3/6*5/6) -->  58% chance of save

Str 6 (iron gut with GW)
---- 5+ AS, 5+ WS ---> 1-(4/6*4/6) --> 56% chance of save

So the ironguts got a small advantage over the bulls, even more so when you take the to wound roll into account.

As mentioned above the key is to get the charge, then the Knights are not so terrible anymore. But due to their loads of passive boni (usually standard, 2 Ranks, numbers and BSB, virtue of Duty or Warbanner adding up to something like 4-6) you should get a flank charge too.
A nice unit to lure the knights are Gnoblars, worth only 40 pts you send them ahead to flee and get overrun. Then keep one or two Ironguts units 16" behind to get the counter charge.  Since you have the first turn most of the time, setting up this trap is possible, as long as the little guys do not bicker. If he does not take the bait, your Gnoblars should move so that he does not have a chance to go around. Then you have to clear these mounted Yeomen and the Pegasi from the Gnoblars flanks, but Leadbelchers do the job rather good.
It needs a little practice, but it can work out quite nicely. 

Well no, the wyrdstone necklace is still a wardsave even against magical attacks.
Have you been playing daemons or forest spirits? because the do suffer from that rule.

Watch out for Grail knights. Each is effectively a champion. They all have 2 attacks. Any of them can issue and accept challenges. I have seen a number of occasions where a player will put five of them in a unit with a standard bearer carrying the war banner, include the BSB and also Another character. This puts the formation as

                       P  K  P        P = Paladin
                       K  K  K        K = Grail Knight
                       K      K

This unit on the charge will get 10 attacks from the Grail Knights, and at least 6 Attacks for the two paladins, all at strength 6. They are immune to psycology and automatically have the grail vow. In order for them to lose this blessing, the unit must flee. In order to do this you need to beat them in combat.

Looking at the unit:
1 CS for a rank
1 CS for standard
1 CS for warbanner
1 CS for battle Standard
1 CS for Virue of duty.

So, before any of their attacks hit, they are at a CS of 5.

This unit is very tough to beat in combat.

with the new rank rules is that unit actually legal. It's been a long time since I've read the lance formation rules so there may be a line in there allowing it, but since 7th came into effect, wouldn't those two knights on the back rank have to fill the centre hole first as models are taken off either edge now? May be allowed by lance as said though

Thanks
Corai

In the Bretonnian codex, it basically says that in the lance formation, the back ranks are filled from the outsides so as to allow for the maximum number of hits on the charge. In the lance formation, the model in the center is removed first, making the formation both legal and very annoying when charged by it

I see I may have made a few mistakes 

As for Lance Formation, watch out for Damsels being put in the middle of 9 Knights. They are still allowed to cast magic! One deadly unit would be:


G=Grail Knight
P=Paladin
D=Damsel

That may be a popular unit in Breton armies, although again, I have never played Bretonnians, I just collect them.

Thanks

They are allowed to cast magic, but the lack of LoS can stop them from doing so.

You won't see that unit in many armies...its just too expensive.

~220 pts - 5 Grail Knights (mus, banner)
~101 pts - 1 Naked Paladin w/Grail Vow (shield, mount, lance, grail vow)
~ 95 pts - 1 Naked BSB Paladin (mount, grail vow)
~ 80 pts - 1 Naked Damsel (warhorse)
------------------------------
496 pts That doesn't have up to 50pts magic for paladin, 50pts magic for damsel, 50 pts bannner for grail, loads of points possible for BSB.

So, yeah, this is a tough unit, but it is 500-700 points.

I know that lots of you that play out there don't play with special characters, but if you do watch the Bret special characters!  I don't have the Bret army book in front of me right now, so I am sure that some of you will amend or add to my statements, which I would appreciate.

Green Knight-  A beast for a pretty inexpensive cost (under 300).  He is ethereal, has a ward save (5+), has a very good armor save, casues terror (if I remeber correctly), is immune to psychology, can move through impassable terrain if he wants as long as he doesn't end his turn in it, and can be "brought back to life" after you take him out initially (the Bret player can roll to bring him back into the game even after he is killed although the roll to bring him in again is harder the next time, the only way you can really get the points for him is to have him off the board on the last turn).  He also has a handy dandy sword that can give him D6 attacks additionally or he gets extra strength to the attacks that he already has.  He can also pop around the board using natural terrain features.  He cannot start his turn on one side of the board enter a woods and charge out of another woods all in one turn, but think about the mobility he has anyways.  He can be in one set of woods one turn and be all the way on the other side of the table in a new woods or on a hill the next turn. 

I play Brets and I have used him the last two times I have played against dark elves and in a three way versus ogres and wood elves.  I completely ruined my opponents plans both times with him and ripped apart several large groups of opposing soldiers, including a group of five ironguts who couldn't do a thing against him.  He isn't great in a combat resolution battle by himself (although I would never take him into a large unit that would be around for a while by himself) and a tyrant, bruiser, or hunter with a magical weapon should take him down very quickly.  Also yhetees with their magical weapons, quick movement, and ability to not be slowed by terrain themselves are ideal for killing the Green Knight.

There is the Fay Enchantress.  She is fairly good and the biggest thing I can remeber about her is that your whole army automatically starts the game with the blessing, so watch out if you were thinking that you would automatically go first because the Brets always pray.  She is a typical Lvl 4 but she allows for a +1 to the casting and dispel pool of the Bret player.  She also adds +2 to casting when she does so from life and she has a bound item that lets her cast one extra spell each turn from Lore of Heavens.  She gives MR 3 and in combat she causes fear (terror to skaven and beasts).  You have to pass an initiative test against her before combat or take a wound with no save (including ward save), this happens before anything else including chariot impact etc...   She rides a unicorn and it is a decent fighter, although she is not a good warrior as you would expect.  Oh, you can also take an extra unit of grail knights because of her (they act as her bodyguard).  She is expensive, but overall because of the whole blessing thing I would usually take her as a Bret player.

Louen Leoncoeur is impressive but so is his point cost.  Consequently most Bret players probably would not take him in any kind of battle unless it is a huge game (over 4000).  So I wouldn't worry about him then.

To sum up, watch out for the Green Knight as he is so cost effective and can potentially mow through your ironguts, maneaters, leadbelchers, or bulls unless you win by ranks and outnumbering somehow (Good Luck as this is not our strong suit usually)!  The Fay Enchantress is a good magic user, but in my mind her greatest asset is that she allows the Bret player to start the game with the blessing without praying, watch out here!

Thanks,
JC

Not true. This rule allows all knights to be immune to panic caused by friendly units with the peasants duty. In other words, Knights are immnue to panic caused by peasants and peasants only.

Just so u are aware, as well that when in lance formation and on the charge the knights Mounts are also allowed to attack not just the knights themselfs, if u read the calvery rules.

With the super killy Lord your best bet is to redirect it with Sabretusks and kill the rest of his army.

A couple of Ironblasters down the front of his general's lance will take a fair chunk out of them.

Assuming there are 4 ranks total on average you should kill about 3 knights each time you bounce the cannon through. And maybe he'll fail his LoS roll.

2 Ironblasters hitting his character give you about a 30% chance of him failing LoS.

Okay, I have a question for any who can answer it.

I am going to be playing against my girlfriend's brother sometime. It'll be 3,000 points, because he really wants to run his Fay Enchantress using the lore of Life.

From what he explains about this creature, I'm kinda worried as to how to deal with it.

What are the rules that it applies, exactly? Also, what's the best way to stop it?  I know he'll have Throne of Vines so I can't necessarily count on Hellheart, and I don't know if Deathfisting will work due to the large wards he'll be pumping out.

He also said he doesn't run hordes or have any items with ward saves (being brets, no derp I guess lol).

Any help? I know nothing more about his army, and I want to be able to at least give him a run for his money so that he'll appreciate me being with his sister more (in other words... it's in the name of LOVE <3)

Ward save on the Fay Enchantress wouldn't matter against Deathfist; She'd still loose wizard levels if hit.

Hellheart still works mate!

HH force a ROLL on the MC table NOT a miscast itself - therefore its tough titties! Dont be beardy though and suprise them - remind them of this fact before the game.

IIRC the Fay enchantress is on a horse? If thats correct then she'll be with a bud of knights which will be easily whitled down with combined LB fire and 2 Ironblasters cutting through the ranks!

they also dont have too great of an Initiative so Maw can be almost useful!

I thought Hellheart was FAQ'd into being a miscast, but I REALLY don't want to start that discussion up again (this'd be the 4th thread I'd've seen it in lol). Well, eitherway, I know I told him about Deathfisting and the Hellheart, so he wouldn't have to worry.

The F-enchantress is on a unicorn on a large base (looked like 50x50 by the GW pic? doesn't say on their website), so I don't know if she'd be in a troop or not. If she is, though, the iBlaster's definitely going to make sure the job gets done

It was, but the wording of Throne still prevents it from working on the HH as it says "Whilst the spell is in effect, every time the Wizard miscasts, roll a dice..."

Throne only works when the Wizard miscasts.

The Wizard didn't miscast when the Hellheart got him, the Hellheart gave him a Miscast.

It was, but the wording of Throne still prevents it from working on the HH as it says "Whilst the spell is in effect, every time the Wizard miscasts, roll a dice..."

Throne only works when the Wizard miscasts.

The Wizard didn't miscast when the Hellheart got him, the Hellheart gave him a Miscast.

if thats the case then they still get to cast spells after the miscast, because THEY didnt miscast.

yes. they can.

but the likeliness of them having PD left to be able to do anything (bear in mind you get a DD for every MC caused by HH) is very unlikely! (considering you still should have all your DD

It was, but the wording of Throne still prevents it from working on the HH as it says "Whilst the spell is in effect, every time the Wizard miscasts, roll a dice..."

Throne only works when the Wizard miscasts.

The Wizard didn't miscast when the Hellheart got him, the Hellheart gave him a Miscast.

if thats the case then they still get to cast spells after the miscast, because THEY didnt miscast.

No, the simple act of miscasting doesn't prevent you from casting a Spell, but results on the Miscast table do.

So if they rolled Power Drain that Wizard could not cast any more spells that turn(and lose D3 levels and the same number of spells)

Could use some advice. A few notes. First, I don't know what magic items the enemy has, just the total point cost of his units. I could try to figure it out, but I don't have the right army book, so that's a bust. Areas notes (glory) mean that they have the noted upgrade from a campaign element we're playing with. Also, I have 400 point handicap to spend...I don't know what to spend it on. This is the list I'm using that's locked (with the exception of the 400 points). I can add things to what's here (including items) but I can't switch anything around. What do I buy? How should I handle the enemy?
I'm working with this list:

“The Bilgewater Brutes”
Lord: 375

“Commander Grunmar Starbelly” Slaughtermaster – Heavens, Lvl4, Armor of Destiny, Crown of Command, Iron Curse Icon, - 375

Hero: 326

“First Mate Olaf Two-Tooth “Bruiser – BSB, Runemaw, Ironfist, AHW, Heavy Armor 201

“Ensign Brull “Opal-Eye” Jaugrel” Butcher – LotGM, Dispell Scroll, 125

Core: 519

Gnoblar x 12 – Trapper 55
Gnoblar x 12 – Trapper 55
Gnoblar x 10 - 25

Ironguts x 9, FC + Look Out Gnoblar, Std. Discipline -394
   -Gutlord Crakik Boulderbelly

Special:  599

Saber Tusk - 21
Saber Tusk - 21
Saber Tusk - 21

Leadbelchers x 6 , Bellower - 268
Leadbelchers x 6, Bellower - 268

Rare: 170

Iron Blaster 170
Total: 1999

And I'm going against ...

LORDS
 

Lord Wilmont(Bretonnian Lord)

Total ~*245*~

 

HEROES

 

Lord Rowan (Paladin/Battle Standard) Lady Margaret (Damsel of the Lady)

Total ~*160*~ Total ~*144*~

 

Maeve (Damsel of the Lady)

Total ~*135*~

 

CORE

 

"Sir Chantry's Muster" "The Redboots"

9 Knights ot the Realm 40 Peasant Bowmen

Total ~*250*~ Total ~*305*~

 

SPECIAL

 

"Bearers of Lord Vimes"

Grail Relique with 24 Pilgrams

Total ~*305*~

 

 

RARE

 

"The Brotherhood" "Gordon's Machine"

7 Grail Knights Field Trebuchet 90

(Glory) +1 Armor save Total ~*100*~(Glory) +1 Toughness Total ~*326*~

Krimsion,

By the number of posts, lemme start off with a hail! Welcome to the Stronghold.

You have 400 to spend? Beautiful. Ogres rock with a points advantage.

Personally, I'd say at least another IBlaster to rock his buses. I'd also say a hellheart to deal with the damsels, but idk how you'd fit that in unless you perhaps pick up another Butcher or a Firebelly (A lot of the fire spells may actually be good against this; flame cage to hold up a bus perhaps, or even the flame cloak one since you're eventually going to be in combat).

So, Firebelly/GW+Hellheart = 179, IBlaster = 170, so 349. Maybe throw an extra IGut into the horde (392), and then... 3 more gnoblars into the nontrappers?

Idk, I think that might help out a bit. Hope you win! I have a Bret gaming looming, and it'll be a doozy!

Thanks for the tips!

How might you suggest I get the jump on the charge? There don't seem to be many knights that he is fielding, but if he gets the charge, I know I'm toast. My plan is to keep the block of guts centered with belchers on the flanks and the iron blasters on theirs, with the 'tusks hunting his trebuchet and the gnoblars running up to potentially redirect the charges...

I'd like to to chain lightning and harmonic convergence with my SM, meanwhile moving backwards as I try to shell his troops with the belchers, until finally he is somewhere within 9 inches, at which point I'll make my charge with the guts and the 'blasters...

Does this strategy seem sound or too optimistic?

Any and all effort should be spent on pegasus knights and solo peg characters, in the early game.  Clear those out of the way, and you can win the one on one battles with the lances.  The only exception to this would be Grail Knights, but they are easy points if you focus fire with Leadies or Pistoleaters, especially if you have Harmonic up.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but hellheart ruins brets day.  With their Mage sat inside a unit, having a miscast that results in S10 hits can eliminate a LOT of knights even if the Mage survives.

Yes and no.  If they are like me, the big wizard is sitting with peasants on foot in the back of the army, while the Crown of Command caddy is the one up front.  You will indeed kill 4-5 knights, after ward saves, but it does not really render the unit combat ineffective and Bretts are not as dependant on their magic to win.  Its still good, but its not the pivitol weapon that it is against lizardmen or vamps.

Alright, game is tonight at 5.

I'm going to try to spend the points in the above mentioned way...Any suggestions for how to deploy?

As I said before, I'm going to try to do as much shooting / back pedaling as possible, then look for a combo charge with 'belchers and the blasters. I'm worried about the dwellers below... it all but wiped out my IGs last time we played... so hopefully I have a little better luck.

I'll let you know how the game goes after tonight! But again, any last tips or strategies on using the gnoblars or what have you, feel free to suggest.

The more you can spread the Brett player out, the more pressure you put on his leadership dependancies.  Since he has one Trebuchette, the Saber's one and only purpose should be to make certain you get the charge off on his lances.  Let the Ironblaster deal with the Trebuchett.

Another option is to just box his Grails in with the Sabers all game and kill everything else.  You are both kind of light on main combat blocks, but he has very little means of forcing panic tests on your army, so I would try a split deployment against him and try and close in on him from two directions.  As long as you keep your leadership bubble on the Gnoblars, you should be fine.

My guess is that the Brett lord is rocking the Heroic KB combo, so Curse of the Midnight Wind is the crucial spell to get through late game.  With that in mind, you should Ice Shard and Comet early and often, to force him to move out and draw his scroll out as early as you can.  Once that is done, you should be able to have your way with him in the magic phase, as literally any heavens spell is a serious problem for Bretts.

Excellent advice, man.

What exactly do you mean with sabertusk boxing?

In my mind, I picture trying to charge one on one side while positioning the others to either intercept an overrun or charge again during a restrain.

One in front of the unit with an odd facing.  One on each side.  All of them one inch away, but out of mutual panic range of each other.  His choices then become:

1) Charge the lone tusk-
He gets his 21 pts and you get him in what will likely be an ungly counter change on the flank situation even if he restrains (since he cannot reform with a saber on each side), but if not, you just reposition the two remaining sabers the next turn and then block him with the last one on the third turn.

2) Ignore it and wait a turn-
He can't really reform because he cannot get closer to the tusks than he already is.  He can back up four inches, but that really does not change the situation he is in.   You can either extend the pain, or move in a combat block to threaten his flank if he does not do something different.  Alternatively, you can just let him sit there and pound him with the Ironblaster, Beltchers, and magic, once the Trebuchette has been dealt with.

3) Send in help-
Not really an option with his list, since he has no pegs, archers, or mounted yeoman.  He can defend his flank with the relique, but your combat units will eat it alive in the eternity he spends trying to get free of three sabres.  He can send in the realms, but then both of combat units are then bottled in one part of the table and you now get to close our two units with the same resources, while his units get in each other's way.  Frankly, unless he rolls crows feast on his caster, he has no real option here.

If started these shennanigans on turn two, the best case scenario for him is he spends four game turns (or more) without his best combat unit the entire game.  Worst case, he has been flanked and spanked out of his best combat unit, as even stubborn grails (assume that damsel or Lord is sporting the crown) get ground under pretty fast from a unit of Ogres on the flank, even leadies without a command.  In fact, if you are good with chaffe units, I am having a hard time comming up with a way for the brett player to win with what he is bringing to this game.  He is in for a rough lesson about the value of chaffe units, I think.

Chaff is definitly king in 8th edition.

Ironblasters are also murder against his lances. Since Bretts go deep and at best have 5+ ward saves(which don't stop the bounce) you can easily pick off 4-5 knights in one shot.

After you deal with his Treb of course.

of course the ward save stops the bounce...if he passes his ward sve then he hasn't suffered a wound therefore the cannonball stop!

Actually it doesn't stop the bounce. Only multi-wound models stop the bounce if they fail to kill the model.  Single wound models just thank their gods that the cannon ball just nicked them on it's way past.....

@Adasi : Nah Cavalry does not stop the bounce. Only Monstruous Cavalry (and MC Infantry/Beasts + Monsters) do.

@GT : You won't ever kill 4-5 knights unless
1. The lance is 4-5 rank deep. - I remind you that you only can kill one guy per rank
2. You are perfectly aligned in the front (or the back) of his unit
3. You get a shot that lands on the guy in the front rank.
4. You get 8-10 for the rebound. - knights bases are 2" long
5. You get insanely lucky with the wound and save rolls.

With an average rebound of 5, even a well aligned shot will only kill an average of 2 knights after wounds and ward saves. That's already nice, especially on Grail Knights. But there are WAY better ways to kill knights : our 2D6 S2 spell with no AS, maneaters with pistols and, most important, leadbelchers. It's like S4 piercing was designed to counter Brets.

@kobahl: Multi-wound models don't stop bounces, Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Infantry, and Monstrous Cavelry do. it has nothing to do with # of Wounds.

Far2casual: Ok, I may have exagerated a little, but it is more then you are saying.

The average bounce of our cannon is not 5". Its a toss up between 6" and 8"(equivilent of 4 and 3 on 2D6)


I don't need to be perfectly aligned, I just need to be in the front arc. I can trace a line that goes all the way through the unit if I am in his front arc.

I have found ironblasters tremendously effective against knights - the best being flank shots on multiple lances. My best shot passed through 3 lances and killed 6 knights. Frontal shots are also a good option. I usually aim for the HKB general and hope he fails the lookout sir roll. HKB is just insanely good against ogres. Take him out and the game is yours!

Other Tricksters Shard is also really great on a character leading a unit of ironguts.

The average bounce of our cannon is not 5". Its a toss up between 6" and 8"(equivilent of 4 and 3 on 2D6)

Correct. But even when hitting the front guy (lucky) with a 8 rebound (somewhat lucky), you hit 4 guys, that's only 2.2 dead knights in average. It's really an okay usage for a cannon don't get me wrong, we should just not "expect" killing 4 or 5 in a single shot.

Side note : a Scraplauncher hit will kill 2.08 knights

I don't need to be perfectly aligned, I just need to be in the front arc. I can trace a line that goes all the way through the unit if I am in his front arc.

No you really can't, whn you are barely in his front arc you will miss a rank. If you are not properly aligned and try to draw the line to hit as many models as you can, you are less likely to hit the first or last guy of the unit, AND you need better bounces to hit the same amount of models (good ol' Pythagorean theorem).

Hey guys
Been challenged by a friend to a game of fantasy
Not played many games and so far ive only played brets and skaven.
which I consistently win against None of my friends are pros when it comes to fantasy, but take 40 seriously
Anyway... the two guys that have challenged me have won quite a few local tournaments in doubles and 2000-3000pts.
So a little worried
They will be playing brets,O&G,High Elves.

This is the list I have come up with, although might drop 1 Leadie for 2 Sabres
Let me know what you think please!
I don't want to get my ass handed to me on turn 2

OGRE KINGDOMS 2000pts

Lord (388pts)

Slaughter Master -  388pts
Lore Of The Great Maw
Level 4, Glittering Scales, Gruts Sickle, Iron First, Power Stone, Potion Of Speed

Heroes (372pts)

Butcher - 188pts
Lore Of Heavens
Level 2, Crown Of Command, Sword Of Striking

Bruiser - 184pts
BSB, Heavy Armour, Dispell Scroll, Enchanted Sheild, Sword Of Might

Core (586pts)

12x Iron Guts - 586pts
Standard, Bellower, Dragon Hide Banner

Special (488pts)

6x Leadbelchers - 268pts
Bellower

3x Mourn Fangs - 220pts
Bellower, Heavy Armour, Iron Fists

Rare (170pts)

Iron Blaster - 170pts

2004pts

Chris
I have posted this up in High Elves also, but there seems to be more traffic in this thread
Sorry for the double post

Hi,

Couple of things straight away:

1) Your Bruiser BSB can't have a dispel scroll as he's not a mage.
2) You're over by 4pts. May not be a big issue with your meta, but if your friends are tourney gamers as you say, i'd presume it might be (ogres tend to not get away with many "favours")

Right, onlto the actuall list assessment.

You clearly have enough anti armour in the guts. This should eb good for brest who will also have to endure the shooting from the Leaddies. I like this set up. The MFC are big enough to threaten but not too expensive points wise (ie withought a banner)

I would definately re-jog your magic items - particularly your arcane items. With 2 mages, i'd take a dispell scroll on the SM and a scroll of shielding on the other. This should provide adequate protection as you march your troops into their face.

I can't see this list having too many issues with even a Brets list, although i can forsee Peg knights ruining your day a bit as you dont really have any chaff.

Against High ELves, it will be bllody - you just have to accept that they will out magic you and cause some damage first. The heavens sig will help stem their attacks that hit but only slightly. It may help to pay the butcher tax and opt for heavens to get a comet or pesky chain lightning off to thin the HE elite infantry you're bound to see.

Against OnG, you will again siffer from very good magic. Foot can destroy you in a turn if the dice gods decide! Hence the scroll of shielding! you also dont have nough chaff. I'd advocate a couple fo kitties just to suicide into the manglers!

Thank you for your input
Yes I overlooked that when Gearing my BSB
I will amend that, completely forgot you needed a mage level to use arcane!
I have dropped 1 leadie and added two kitties. As suggested.
The other players said they will give me some leeway with point costs as I only have about 6-7 games under my belt
Dropping the leadie brings it down to +3pts.
I will see what I can do with magic, Id like to keep gruts, dispel scroll, and glittering scales? w/ Iron Fist.
My butcher will just take crown + shielding then?
and ill re-kit my bsb. really wanted that powerstone for a big magic phase! lol
I like the level 4 maw, its done me well so far and level 2 heavens works well too.
maw keeps him survivable and I like the buffs!
I will re-post my army list tonight once ive re-jogged my list.

thanks
Chris

I play Brets too. And the reason why you'll go first is so the Brets can pray. It gives them a 5+ward save against big weapons.
    Look for long bows. They have a range of 30 inches. Expect 30 of them and a unit of bowmen skirmishers. Nice units to hold quarters.
   
     Don't expect a lance charge on the second turn. Expect 4-5 lances crashing into you. Maybe more. In a 2250 point game I'll take 5-6 9-man lances. Hey, horse armies are fun and half the time I go non-pedestrian.

    I usually forgo Trebs. Why? Because they'll fire once on the first turn and then by the second turn there won't be a whole lot of decent targets available. If you don't see treb (s) then the bret player may be looking to go first.

    A Pegasus unit is 165 points. Don't expect the bret player to waste them on low value units.

     I like mounted bowmen for clean-up. maybe even 2 units.

     Expect one unit of Knight Errants (9-12)to have the errantry banner. A +1 str on charge ( str=6) Ask which unit it is before the game starts.