Anybody notice how broken Tzeentch Demons are????

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong forum as I was unable to find the lesser creatures section and as this is related to AoS I posted in this feed.

So I did some theory/ mathhammer the other day and realized that Tzeentch Demons are more than broken. I started with 30 wounds (which is the balancing system that my area is currently using) Kairos, Lord of change and 10 pink horrors. Before I was cut off by my friends (no where close to finished with my first summoning phase) I had 4 additional Lords of change and 160 horrors on the board. This isn't even looking into the battle scroll abilities of Tzeentch cohorts (allowing every wizard 1 additional spell) and Blue Scribes allowing every Tzeentch wizard within 18 inches to re-roll failed casting attempts. I've scoured the internet and nobody is talking about this????

My question to the community is... Is there a summoning balancing system that anyone has seen for Tzeentch as they are the only army that allows summoning of units that are able to summon????

Summoning in general is flat busted, it stands to reason summoning squared is more-so.
I would advise just not using summoning in games, or, alternatively, allow it but only to replace lost warscrolls up to the amount the army started with.

The only problem with limiting summoning to starting numbers is that it limits the other summoning armies (Death) that the units aren't great and are needed to be able to bump there numbers. (because if you limit that rule for summoning it would have to go across the board). I believe a simple fix might be not allowing recently summoned models to move or summon when they are placed, however this still means the army will essentially double each turn.

I'm trying to resist posting this meme in response to every AoS thread:



Without points, I'm not sure how meaningful "broken" is.

You don't actually need points to balance something.
Not to suggest that AoS is somehow balanced without them as it is clearly not, but the lack of a points system is not necessarily the problem, rather the lack of any sort of balancing system at all.

As it stands the best way to balance things is 'don't be a jerk', far from ideal but that's what is there. If you want to play an army which exponentially increases in size every turn find someone willing to play against that list and go have fun!

Alternative methods to try and smooth out summoning off the top of my head:
-As mentioned earlier limit it to just replacing lost units.
-Summoned units cannot do anything on the turn they are summoned.
-Create a 'Summoning Deck' of Warscrolls which can be summoned, draw one each time you cast the spell and that's the unit you get.
-Limit Summoned units to a minimum model/wound/whatever count.
-Maybe modify some of the summoning spells so that they can only add models to a currently extant unit?

In honesty, I think the Tzeentch daemons aren't much more broken than the other daemons. I was noticing earlier that my Nurgle Daemons have just been completely revalidated by AoS.

Summoning in general is absolute filth, and there will soon be a quite harsh balancing system on it, because there's no way the meta will play it as is for long.

JJ

I think the best thing I've heard so far, or at least the simplest, is that a unit summoned in the hero phase cannot make actions (ie summon) in that phase.

You don't actually need points to balance something.

It's pretty hard. Possible, but  hard, particularly for pick-up games. And I've not seen anyone come up with one now.

I just don't get how any meaningful discussion can even be had about the relative power of units without some form of balance (points or otherwise).

Whilst I agree that a balancing system is needed, I couldn't disagree more that a lack of points system invalidates comparison of relative power.

Just because you have no points doesn't make it difficult to see that units that can be summoned at little cost, which are then able to summon further units at little cost, are vastly more powerful than other units that do not.

To see two armies start at relatively similar model counts, but one have double the amount of models by turn two is an obvious power imbalance, and you don't need points to see that, surely?

JJ

To see two armies start at relatively similar model counts, but one have double the amount of models by turn two is an obvious power imbalance, and you don't need points to see that, surely?

JJ

I've played a few games against a certain Wood Elves player who likes full Glade Rider core.  We start with similar  model count and he more than doubles on turn 2 when his ambushers arrive.  Yet it is still a balanced game because of points, and because there are limits upon his increasing model count.

Summoning in AoS is really broken, especially if the summoning player is smart and begins the game with few enough models to take advantage of the Sudden Death rules.

Using wounds to balance your force will only get you in the ballpark. Its not very good to rely on. Sounds to me like you should consider the power of the Tzeentch Demon when you and your opponent bring your models to the table.

Summoning is hard to deal with. My poor ogres get the pleasure to fight vampire counts a lot and its rough. Really all I can say is that when dealing with a summoner bring some more muscle up front and point out to your opponent, "Yes its fair because you will be summoning 5-10 black knights every turn". I mean, I'd hate to just throw out summoning all together ~ its a really cool and tactical option for the armies that can use it!

Bear in mind that summoned units count towards your kill count but not to the opponents starting model count. As long as you have a single unit survive (hiding in the corner) you could easily wipe out over 100% of your opponents starting force, swinging victory your way. Admittingly, such victory feels hollow. 

Again, it all comes back to having an opponent you can trust to not be unfair

Edited by Belchfist: watch the language please - family friendly forum 

Funny thing about this, this isn't a balancing issue with AoS: its a balancing issue with your gaming group's comp system.

In AoS, you could just start with all of that on the table to begin with if you wanted. Its only really broken in the context of the comp.

The cool thing about that is that you don't have to wait for GW to update the rules to fix this, just update the comp. I'd start with "Units cannot summon other units unless they were on the table at the beginning of the turn."

Tossing in a Kill Point system for scoring can even things out as well (get a point for each unit destroyed).

Also, each summoned unit destroyed already racks up percentage points to figuring who wins the "minor victory," so if the opponent can hang on til the end and not get tabled, they are guaranteed to win via the minor victory. So there's something there.

Yeah, why should GW release a game that has some kind of starting balance.


My best guess for balancing summoning is removing the restriction of 18'' and line of sight restriction for dispelling.

Funny thing about this, this isn't a balancing issue with AoS: its a balancing issue with your gaming group's comp system.

Translation: a balancing issue with whatever pseudo point value system you use because the game doesn't come with an actual point value system?

Our group treats the summoned units as spells, so Wizards can dispel the units back to the warp instead of casting spells of their own. We limit the "Dispell" range to 24" so if you want that unit gone, your Wizard is gonna have to get close to the enemy anyway.
We also have a Perils system:
On a roll of a Double 1, the Wizard suffers D3+1 Mortal Wounds, but the spell is cast at the minimum casting value.
To actually summon a unit, you must have the unit in question already in your Army.

You might think this is harsh or whatnot, but we do get a lot of powergamers, and the usual lads don't rock out to Summoning or being 50% bigger than your opponent.