Ogre Kingdoms in AoS: biggest winner and biggest loser?

Which Ogre Kingdoms unit do you think gained the most and which unit came out worst on the tabletop from the move to Age of Sigmar? If you haven't played yet, Theoryhammer is welcome

I've played a few games, in my opinion Ogres in general seem pretty strong; a side-effect of the, ahem, questionable balance of the game. Most everything lost Impact Hits and Stomps, but now that initative and WS are not factors that is not so crucial, and the fact that basically everything does at least 2 damage per wound is extremely strong.

Mostly I would say everything has gotten stronger with few exceptions.

-Bulls have gotten better; kit them with two hand weapons to mitigate their average To Hit roll and they will do real damage whether they get the charge or not.
-Ironguts similarly; causing three wounds per attack is pretty silly, it means they can cause a lot of damage, then even more casualties from Battleshock, and then a few extra from the effects of their standard. Coupled them with a wizard to give them +1 armour and they are a real prime target.
-Both Monsters are great, Stonehorn is extremely stompy and can sneak in first-turn charge if you're feeling brave. Thundertusk is more shooty, being able to deal 6 automatic mortal wounds makes it an excellent character sniper.
-Tyrants seem good, all the Big Names are decent and their Command Ability is excellent, more wounds than most other forces Heroes too, making them harder to easily snipe out.

-Ironblaster is much worse, with no crew like other cannons it is stuck with a single shot, and D6 (non-mortal) wounds is not so hot now that everything is running around with more wounds than before. It's not even as good in combat without impact hits!
-Firebelly seems worse as well; their unique spell is kinda lame, though their fire breath is alright and they can still cast the two standard spells.
-Leadbelchers are technically worse I guess as they have to stand still to benefit from their full firepower, buuut they can also shoot into and out of combat, so it's not a huge deal.
-Greasus is somehow even worse, an impressive feat, even slower than before and worse at wounding.

Gorgers are now on my shopping list as a must take. A real backfield threat.

Giants look good too.

Sabretusks are meh now...serious waste of wounds if you are using that mechanic to balance a game.  But the Hunter is absolutely awesome!  His running spear shot against monsters is just brutal.  With a bravery of 7, he will never break from combat as a single model...actually the 7 doesn't matter as he will never take the test...  Took on a scar vet on a carnosaur all by his lonesome...would have won too if he didn't get ganged up on by a bunch of other lizards.

I feel overall the ogres just got more bang for their buck.

^^^ I'll second that. Ogres are in a much better place with this game.

+Ironguts feel like that MVP of the army right now. 3 Damage is brutal. Combined with the Tyrant "no battleshock" test ability you can make a 10 model unit scary, that can spread out to maximize damage.

+Tyrant is a beast in CC, and it's command ability is amazing.

+Maneaters aren't bad. I usually take the Run + Charge ability to cross the board faster.

+Butcher is not very good now. I find myself casting Mystic Shield more than any other spell he has.

+BSB is not bad, and it's once per game ability can be pretty epic if he's in the right spot. I was able to get several combat phases of mileage with it due to the random battlerounds.

+Mournefang have become a good tank unit now, thanks to 6 wounds and 4+. 6 Bravery seems bad on paper, but it takes a lot of damage to loose 2 models in one turn. Most of the time you'll only loose 1, which means a 6 on battleshock hurts, but majority of the time, they are ok.

+Ironblaster seems really bad at the shooting phase now, but it may be better in CC.

***Neat little combo I discovered, Mournefang Banner bearer ability seems to stack with the Irongut Runemaw ability. Meaning if a model flees within 6" of both models you get to roll 2d6 looking for 6's to make another model flee.

Biggest winner? IRONGUTS!! They can kill the hell out of things now. Three wounds each attack with 3 attacks per model and decent reach? Yes please!

Biggest loser? Eh... the Ironblaster looks like it went from a hero to a zero pretty quick. But I suppose it is still nice to have shooting options aside from the Leadies and Maneaters/characters.

Hunter is looking aces too.

Bragg went from a sad joke to a fairly decent hero (3'' reach, thanks, don't mind if I do)
Ironguts also became the poster child in my local group for 'overpowered' which is cute.


Greasus still manages to suck, unless you are a true win at all cost (and I do mean all costs) player
Both the scraplauncher and the ironblaster are pretty sad now.


As books go, though, Ogres came out pretty strong

Going on improvement from 8th rather than overall power I think yetis look pretty fierce. Fast pile in, lots of attacks and a -1 to hit. Anyone agree?

All you boys and girls still fascinated with your ironguts.  Forget about the former core and look farther afield.

Hands down the biggest winner in the list are Man Eaters.

First, their entry has an undefined number of models, so they bypass the idea of limiting warscrolls for comp purposes.

Second, they can be tailored to your needs with their Been There, Done That rule.  You can make them immune to battle shock (HUGE for ogres, since battle shock losses hurt us more), or you can augment their move/charge range, or their ability to hit with melee or shooting.  Pro-tip: choose a model in a man eater unit that is immune to battle shock to be your general.  Now they have to kill that unit to a man to remove your inspiring presence ability.

Third, they bring something to both range and melee; namely they bring absurd damage.  With 3s to hit and wound, with a -1 rend and 2 damage, a unit of 5 (20 wounds worth, another standard popping up in comp) puts out an average 17 wounds before armor saves in melee, and also can do another 4 with shooting.  And don't forget, you can move, shoot, then charge (even charge a different unit!). 

The nastiest army I've tried was built around 3 units of 6 man eaters, 2 thundertusks, and 2 butchers (we comped it as 10 scrolls worth; the maneaters counted as 2 scrolls each).  The thundertusks obliterated any characters, the butchers played spell defense and buff bot (though the Maw spell is NASTY now), and the man eaters vaporized the units.

All you boys and girls still fascinated with your ironguts.  Forget about the former core and look farther afield.

Hands down the biggest winner in the list are Man Eaters.

First, their entry has an undefined number of models, so they bypass the idea of limiting warscrolls for comp purposes.

Second, they can be tailored to your needs with their Been There, Done That rule.  You can make them immune to battle shock (HUGE for ogres, since battle shock losses hurt us more), or you can augment their move/charge range, or their ability to hit with melee or shooting.  Pro-tip: choose a model in a man eater unit that is immune to battle shock to be your general.  Now they have to kill that unit to a man to remove your inspiring presence ability.

Third, they bring something to both range and melee; namely they bring absurd damage.  With 3s to hit and wound, with a -1 rend and 2 damage, a unit of 5 (20 wounds worth, another standard popping up in comp) puts out an average 17 wounds before armor saves in melee, and also can do another 4 with shooting.  And don't forget, you can move, shoot, then charge (even charge a different unit!). 

The nastiest army I've tried was built around 3 units of 6 man eaters, 2 thundertusks, and 2 butchers (we comped it as 10 scrolls worth; the maneaters counted as 2 scrolls each).  The thundertusks obliterated any characters, the butchers played spell defense and buff bot (though the Maw spell is NASTY now), and the man eaters vaporized the units.

This all sounds deliciously terrifying. Have you fielded a firebelly yet (in addition/opposed to a butcher)? I've found they really "turn up the heat" once you get them within combat range.

First, their entry has an undefined number of models, so they bypass the idea of limiting warscrolls for comp purposes.

Eh, that only means you can take 1 or 2 maneaters, which is cute but hardly helpful. Asides from single models (characters, warmachines) are there any warscrolls that say 'this unit is between x and y models?'

Eh, that only means you can take 1 or 2 maneaters, which is cute but hardly helpful. Asides from single models (characters, warmachines) are there any warscrolls that say 'this unit is between x and y models?'

Not that I've seen. I will say from experience, just using minimum unit sizes, not all warscrolls are equal in power.

First, their entry has an undefined number of models, so they bypass the idea of limiting warscrolls for comp purposes.

Eh, that only means you can take 1 or 2 maneaters, which is cute but hardly helpful. Asides from single models (characters, warmachines) are there any warscrolls that say 'this unit is between x and y models?'

None.  Typically it's compensated for by comparision to other unit sizes (so maneaters typically come in 3 per warscroll), or by wounds (typically 10 or 20 per unit per warscroll).

That being said, I HAVE tried the unit of 5 gorgers, and I have spit 10 fanatics out of a night goblin unit, and there's not a blasted thing in rules that disallow it.  Welcome to AoS.

Haven't tried a FB.  Given the shooting rules, I've found that characters (especially ones that have to get close) are usually slaughtered.  HE bolt throwers are nasty, and there are some dumb things you can do with dwarven artillery.  And then there is our own thundertusk, who can kill most characters in a single volley when unwounded.

Been said several times over, but the Ironblaster is a pile of steaming hot... Yeah.

Went from being one of our best options, to easily one of our worst. That said, most warmachines took a hit with AoS, so we can't feel too left out!

JJ

clearly you haven't faced a Hell Cannon

IMO it's easily the most broken unit in the game.

Nope, which is why I said most warmachines

Is it that broken?

JJ

I haven't play tested it yet, but if you take Golgfag Maneater and he joins a unit of Maneaters with the Brawlers trait (makes them his personal retinue), then they would get to re-roll 1's to hit AND to wound? That seems fairly brutal.

I considered this, however, nothing says that he actually joins the unit, just that they're his retinue.  You'd have to get pretty obstinate that they become one unit, especially since no where else in the war scrolls does a hero join a unit.

ret·i·nue
a group of advisers, assistants, or others accompanying an important person.

But you're probably right, and re-reading the rule it just states that you choose a unit of Maneaters, and that unit can re-roll their "to wound" rolls of a 1 and gets bravery 8 instead of 7. Doesn't specifically state he can join them. I would argue he is still worth taking just for this as it doesn't mention that he needs to be alive for the bonus to be in effect.

Ironguts are even better than before. They have abilities that reflect their bodyguard nature.

Hellcannon: 7 wounds, 4+ save.  Two shots at range 12"-48," may target a unit even without line of sight.  Each shot hits on a 4+, and causes d6 mortal wounds.  Then it gets +1 to hit if it didn't move, and +1 to hit if the unit hase 20+ models in it.  Finally, the sorceror (cause there will always be a sorceror) has a spell that lets it reroll 1s to hit.

So, 2d6 mortal wounds that hit on a 3+, rerolling ones (ie, hitting 88% of the time, better than hitting on 2s).

Hellcannon: 7 wounds, 4+ save.  Two shots at range 12"-48," may target a unit even without line of sight.  Each shot hits on a 4+, and causes d6 mortal wounds.  Then it gets +1 to hit if it didn't move, and +1 to hit if the unit hase 20+ models in it.  Finally, the sorceror (cause there will always be a sorceror) has a spell that lets it reroll 1s to hit.

So, 2d6 mortal wounds that hit on a 3+, rerolling ones (ie, hitting 88% of the time, better than hitting on 2s).

That's pretty brutal.

So, 2d6 mortal wounds that hit on a 3+, rerolling ones (ie, hitting 88% of the time, better than hitting on 2s).

Math quibble, hit on 3s rerolling ones is not better odds than hitting on 2s:

Hitting on 2s is (5/6 or 83%).

Hitting on 3s rerolling ones is (4/6 + 1/6 * 4/6 = 4/6 + 4/36 = 24/36 + 4 /36 = 28/36 = 7/9 =  77%.

Still brutal, especially given the no line of sight rules and stupid range.

Though, I still think the uninjured thundertusk's spit is going to cause more tears.

I have been getting in a bunch of games with my Ogres and have had some similar results to that previously mentioned. Here are some brief rundown of what my experience has been.

1. Enough good things cannot be said about Ironguts. They are absolutely amazing!!
2. Mornfangs are not as brutal as they once were in terms of damage, but their really high movement and durability is a big asset. And if you cast mystic shield on them it starts to get silly.
3. Giants got SOOO much better. They have a huge damage output and can actually pick command models out of units with the stuff in bag ability.
4. Thundertusk's shooting attack is doom to heroes. Six mortal wounds at full health will kill most heroes/wizards in the game. Very dangerous since they can be picked out now.
5. Maneaters make a very capable support unit, but surprisingly aren't as brutal as the Ironguts. There shooting helps mitigate this, and I am a big fan of the ability that makes them not have to take battleshock tests. This allows them to be a very effective flanking unit.
6. Gorgers are a big help in dealing with wizards and war machines. And with five wounds take a surprising amount to kill.
7. Leadbelchers are probably my second favorite unit in the army. Their shooting can be absolutely devastating. Especially once they are locked in combat, since they can still shoot normally while doing so. Or I enjoy fielding them right behind a giant. While it is smashing face they unleash full shooting potential. Just brutal.
8. The Bruiser with battle standard bearer is helpful but I admit that I miss the range of the leadership boost.
9. Firebellies are nice, but their signature spell is not as nice as Butchers, whose maw spell is amazing. Though admittedly unless there is a really juicy target I am often casting mystic shield all over the place.
10. Hunters got a nice boost in my opinion. Their throwing spear can be very brutal if the shot makes contact and they still are strong in combat.
11. Skragg misses his ability to cast spells, but still pulls his weight. His healing prayer, innate healing and boost to the Gorgers is appreciated.
12. The Ironblaster is still useful, and provides a big help in dealing with enemy monsters, but is somewhat lackluster compared to what it once was. I think the hardest part about it is that almost everything you would bring it for can be done better by another unit.
13. The scraplauncher on the other hand wrecks face for big units getting up to 2d6 damage and doesn't need line of sight. Far from fear inducing, to normal sized units but still useful.
14. Sabertusks make a great flanking unit. They can be very useful in getting behind your opponent and getting to hard to reach units with the charge bonus from a hunter. Was rather impressed with how much ground they can cover. Between their 9" movement and potential 15" charge they can catch some targets unaware.
15. Golfag Maneater is a good hero to hold a flank, and all of his upgrade abilities are very useful.
16. Tyrants help out quite a bit with their command ability. Even better with Skragg's healing. I would almost always recommend the pair of clubs for the mass of damage two attacks that hit really hard with the rerolls.

Hope this helps everyone out. I absolutely love the army and what they have done with them. I have many more schemes still to come and will have to follow up as we get closer.

@Emergency Rations: Doh!  No idea what I was thinking there.

That being said, I'm sure that the math says that Man Eaters hit harder than Ironguts.  Only thing Ironguts have is that 4+ save and extra range on the attack (both of which are nice, I admit).  Of course, around here they're limiting duplicate units, so I typically take Man Eaters (immune to battle shock), lead belchers who then get hit by a Tyrant (and are now immune to battle shock), and keep popping Inspiring Presence on the Iron Guts (who then are immune to battle shock).  The Ogre Bulls can typically look after themselves with the battle shock reroll from their standard.

Oh, and Sabertusks are still very good redirectors.  Remember, you can't move within 3" of an enemy.  Park them in front of units to create large dead zones they can't move through to bait them to charge.

Ironguts also deal 3 damage per wound, which basically helps to mitigate poor rolling and even's out the field between them and Maneaters; the Guts hit less often, but they're causing more damage.

12 Irongut attacks is 6 hits, 4 wounds; 12 damage assuming no saves.
12 Maneater attacks is 8 hits, 5-6 wounds; 10-12 damage assuming no saves.

But the Maneaters also get their shooting attacks once every Battle Round, whilst the Guts get better Rend and more reach, plus their little special ability can actually be pretty helpful when the stars align (unlike Maneaters ability which is always useful).

I'd say there's room for both. Ironguts I have found make decent monster hunters, where you want to knock wounds off quickly to reduce the monsters damage.

12 Irongut attacks is 6 hits, 4 wounds; 12 damage assuming no saves.
12 Maneater attacks is 8 hits, 5-6 wounds; 10-12 damage assuming no saves.

4 Ironguts
12 Attacks, 6 Hits, 4 Wounds; 12 damage assuming no saves

4 Maneaters
16 Attacks, 10-11 hits, 6-7 Wounds; 12-14 damage assuming no saves

4 Maneaters with Brawlers
16 Attacks, 12 hits, 8 Wounds; 16 damage assuming no saves

4 Maneaters with Brawlers and Golgfag
16 Attacks, 12 hits, 9 wounds; 18 damage assuming no saves

That's ignoring shooting, however I don't know how long you will be able to shoot while in combat so I'm not going to include that.

Where Ironguts will shine is the 2" range on their melee weapons. Being able to have 2 "ranks" of Ironguts being able to hit the enemy will certainly be useful. I think most AoS lists will have both Maneaters and Ironguts, but I think Maneaters are the better unit, you will just want to make sure you let them take their swings early in the combat phase as they only have the 5+ save .

Is there any reason why you can't have a row of maneaters with a row of Ironguts just behind them? Best of both worlds.

That would work marvelously

The only problem with that is that the Maneaters have to charge first; easy done, get within .5" of an enemy model, usual stuff. But then the Ironguts are trapped; they cannot move within 3" of any enemy model unless they charge, and they cannot charge because the Maneaters are in the way. (Unless there are other enemy models they can reach, in which case you could do some wriggling to get them all in range of something).

If the enemy charge the Maneaters, however, it would work perfectly, as they would then be within 3" of both the Maneaters and the Ironguts, allowing both to pile into the optimum smashing position.

Aaaah I see. Bugger :/

The math is also a bit misleading, since damage isn't multiplied till AFTER saves are taken.  This is where the Man Eaters really outshow the Ironguts, since they have both more attacks AND better to-hit rolls, while have the same Rend characteristic.

So, the math looks like this.  This is done per model, not per unit.
Man Eaters:
Wounds before saves: 1.74
Wounds after a base 6+ save: 3.48
Wounds after a base 5+ save: 2.90
Wounds after a base 4+ save: 2.30
Wounds after a base 3+ save: 1.74

Irongut:
Wounds before saves: .99
Wounds after a base 6+ save: 2.97
Wounds after a base 5+ save: 2.47
Wounds after a base 4+ save: 1.96
Wounds after a base 3+ save: 1.49

Plus I'm not that big a fan of the Irongut's banner or ability (I've never actually used the Irongut ability to
date).

As for combi-charging, just intermix the units.  Say put 3 man eaters up front, with 1 Irongut next to them, then mix the units behind them.  Example:

I M M M M
I  I  I  M M
I  I

Only the first charging model must go to the closest, the others are free to curl around to contact who they like.  Looks like a mess, but that's Age of Sigmar.

Also, remember!  Charge in odd numbers.  Don't bother to charge with two units unless you're going to charge with 3.  Otherwise you're just giving the opponent a free change to damage a unit.