8th Ed vs. AoS: What's the Move? (Discussion/Opinion Thread)

Alright. Age of Sigmar is giving me... mixed feelings to say the least. While I am very frustrated by GW throwing the 30+ years of developed storylines to wherever I put my glasses (i.e. a place that will never see the light of day), I find some of the beer and pretzel style rules hilarious, such as the instant-win condition you get if you can convince your opponent you rolled a 13 on 2d6 for the screaming bell. I can definitely see myself playing this game, but not as a substitute for Warhammer as it has always been. My playgroup has been discussing sticking with 8th as our go-to format, unless the players in question decide otherwise. This could actually result in some interesting games, as we could very well decide to use old editions. Perhaps the truly hard-core could break out their old 5th edition (or perhaps older) rules and duke it out like it was way back in the day. I personally appreciate what GW is doing, making the game more accessible to new players who don't have the motivation/money/whatever to drop $450 on an army they don't even know they'll like. That being said, I also have an appreciation to the for the massed units that the now old warhammer editions had. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the Warhammer Fantasy community keeps playing the old rules. I could compare this situation to video games like Super Smash Bros. Melee, which although it is now 14 years old, still has a loyal cult following. On the other hand, it may not be an applicable comparison, because unlike Warhammer, video games do not require corporeal materials to be used beyond controllers and the game systems, making it easy for new players to obtain the resources necessary to play. As GW phases out the old models, it will likely become difficult to obtain bases (or even models) appropriate to the old system unless you're interested in delving into 3rd party sources, or relying on places like eBay or similar sales and trading outlets.
Whew that was longer than I thought it would be. Bottom line, what do you guys think about this new change? How do you plan to react to this, in my opinion, radical and ground-breaking new direction in Warhammer's long history?
Cheers,
-Bonegut

My group is part of an EEFL movement.  (Eighth edition for life). We came up with the term early during the 9th edition talks more than a year ago.  We are just starting to set up an EEFL forum to discuss expansions, army lists,  projects and everything.  I'll let you know more when it's ready.

Yeah PM me whenever your forum goes up, because chances are my group would love to get behind that!

Erik from Swedish comp. Has just said:


"The Swedish comp system group will not touch Age of Sigmar (at least not in its current state). In my opinion that game does not seem to be made for any type of competitive play at all.


Our plan is instead to create our own 9th edition "warhammer".
http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4494"

Just my thoughts, I'm really excited about Age of Sigmar. As a mainly casual player, its refreshing to see a game I can just invite my friend around and we can just set up and play. The rules allow the game to flow alot faster, meaning for more games and no wasted minutes pouring over the rulebook for some obscure ruling. I can appreciate some peoples annoyance at the lack of competitive setting but to me ots a game, which should primarily be about fun.

I definitely agree that wargaming should be about fun, I've never been that into competitions - but I can totally see why people do enjoy them, and Age of Sigmar just can't provide any kind of true balance so that people can try and beat their opponent through skill rather than 'I bought waaaay more of these little dudes than you did'.

As for the fun, it seems really good for new people joining with up to 15 models aside, but for the rest of us who've been collecting for a while, not so much. This is generally how the games have panned out:

- Turn 1: move closer and shoot a bit
- Turn 2: move closer and charge
- Turn all the rest: roll 3+/4+/5+ then maybe shift a couple of inches to get into the next combat.

It just seems like a massive grindfest of rolling dice. There wasn't any use for positioning units or even necessarily facing down appropriate units with counter units (although I'm sure this will change as people get used to the system).

And as a personal gripe, minimal though it is - AoS is no way near as aesthetically pleasing as 8th. Seeing your opponents army all ranked up, strategically placed was glorious. In AoS you can literally have any formation you feel like, including piling your guys up on each others bases. Its ugly. But I suppose that's just a minor personal issue.

We found the opposite.  There was a lot of deployment and counter deployment when setting up (alright, mostly it was "I deploy a giant" "Jesus fuck?  Another giant?  I'll put down a cannon" "Fine, here's my third giant" "You're a dick"

Seriously though, giants.

Game definitely hasn't been made for competitive play, but Games Workshop haven't supported competitive play for a long time.  I mean, in a system where one of the special characters makes you automatically lose should you ever kneel balance was never a concern.  As for a grind fest, it's only a grind if you stay locked into the mind set of "I charge, you charge, someone breaks".  If you're not getting through the enemy, you can just leave.  So long as your move takes you outside of 3", you can completely disengage from combat and go fight something else.  With that in mind, I did still keep my models on their movement trays, since there's no real disadvantage to doing so.

Our plan is instead to create our own 9th edition "warhammer".
http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4494"

Ballsy as all hell. I love it. Let me know if there's any way I can help out, because I would love to be a part of such an endeavor.

And as a personal gripe, minimal though it is - AoS is no way near as aesthetically pleasing as 8th. Seeing your opponents army all ranked up, strategically placed was glorious. In AoS you can literally have any formation you feel like, including piling your guys up on each others bases. Its ugly. But I suppose that's just a minor personal issue.

THIS. This is the by far the second biggest gripe I have (second only to GW having thrown the Old World into the trash) with Age of Sigmar. I LOVE the way ranked units look, it's one of the main things that brought me to love fantasy. Now it's as you said: Plug ugly.

Cheers,
-Bonegut

There is nothing keeping you from using "ranks" if you wish. Especially if your weapon reach is long enough like big monstrous infantry or spears or...

My observations of Age of Sigmar vs. 8th Ed.

Age of Sigmar
1. List building will not be as important as the synergies and Tailoring your list vs. a particular faction/opponent.
e.g: vs Dwarf gunline then Gorgers might be used as you can counter what the opponent places on the table

2. Movement and maneuvering has almost disappeared no flanks and rear bonuses, but instead bonuses for having extra troops in the combats.

Not so sure on the movement as I see potential with formations, movement and shooting then charges, also the way you can move into combat and who has reach to attack who.

I think if you approach it from the classic WHFB mindset of movement it seems pretty simplistic but I expect there will be new levels of strategy involved.

Totally agree with you on the list synergies and this seems to be a big focus in my quick inspection of the other faction warscrolls. Interested in seeing where that all goes.

Overall the rules seem pretty flexible and if you have a group willing to put limitations on things like model count, wound count, ignoring the fluffy but silly rules options, etc I can see the game being competitive even.

Well ignoring the fluffy but silly rules isn't really an issue. They are added bonuses anyway. No ones making you dance for a re-roll. Just don't dance and don't have the re-roll.

Well ignoring the fluffy but silly rules isn't really an issue. They are added bonuses anyway. No ones making you dance for a re-roll. Just don't dance and don't have the re-roll.

Ye I am not liking the toast to her Lady for the Grail Knights and some of the other silly rules designed to be fun but not for Tourneys.

The one thing I actually like (just because it's fun) are the silly rules.  But sadly, today I played a game of 8th and also a game of AoS (104 wounds per side) and I have to say that AoS was garbage by comparison.  Extremely limited options, very confusing and some unexplained mechanics.  8th WFB never was perfect, but it was waaaaay better.  And I am not even all that hooked on ranks/formations as I played 40k for a long time too.

On the plus side, I will say it wasn't the worst game I have ever played.  I have a feeling I will just keep my boys on square bases, future buys as well, and then just play whichever version my opponent is ready to play.  Rules are free, so I am not losing anything this way...

Guys, I'm not positive the 4-page rules are the final iteration of Age of Sigmar. Isn't there a full rulebook rumored to come? Also, all these army lists we got...I got the impression it was just some quick rules for all the existing models. There is no points and not much balance because GW probably just doesnt care. I'm sure the new models/factions will be more competitive. They might even have some sort of list-building structure. That way your old models will be phased out.

On the other hand, perhaps AoS is just supposed to be more narratively focused? More about scenarios and campaigning than a chess-like sparring? In which case balance/list-building would take back-seat.

Anyway, who knows. I threw a gutbuster war-tribe at the ghoul warscroll from the vampire count last night. It was honestly a tense, close game. I thought it was grand! (In fairness, we then tried to have a zombie-host fight some dwarfs and their cannons shot half the units off the board turn 1, so some more eyeballing will need to be done to get things fair).

Played a few games of AoS, it seems fun enough. I think it'll make a great system for campaigns/narratives.

But based on what we have, I'm not going to put any effort in whole cloth balancing someone else's game so until the dust settles I won't be putting any significant effort into AoS.

i think i may be done. i cant handle the fact that a game the used to be about strategy, can now be altered by whether the player dances, or shouts something at the top of their lungs, or has a staring match with their opponent. they really alienated many of their fans who prefer not to act like a 3 year old.

Your loss, it's not that game breaking considering we survived rerolls from every elf army without having to be a goofball.

i see no reason for anyone to quit..if u dont like (and nobody does) simply act like it didnt happen...i personaly look forward to swecomp hammer, or kings of war 2....for me the wh world lives...

For those interested in AoS, I have been watching several games, and shooting seems quite potent in its ability to force battleshock tests at a distance, which can possibly cause the targeted unit to bleed models, which is devastating to cavalry and monstrous infantry-esque units because it bypasses their multiple wounds.

That said, I too look forward to SweComp Hammer. The Old World will always be in my top 5 favorite fantasy settings ever.

-Bonegut

Battleshock tests don't happen after the shooting phase though. Unless you are saying just racking up the models for the eventual combat that round?

9th or whatever you wish to call it being written by the community is inspiring.  Hope it goes well.

Yeah, I am hoping that WHFB turns into a living rulebook - I play a fair bit of blood bowl and the living rulebook is a much better game than the original blood bowl ever was.

AOS seems (at this stage) to fail in terms of
- balance
- rules being too simple (and not in a good way, chess has simple rules but the way they interact makes the game tactically complex)
- appearance
- fluff and crunch

There are much better games out there - if you want a smaller game with simple rules but with tactical depth blood bowl is just so so much better.

So having had time to digest AoS i have only one thing i havent seen already said.
Age of Sigmar does not replace 8th edition, it is an entirely new game. I see Age of Sigmar as an addition to Fantasy. We are all still able to play both

On a personal note, AoS is not my thing, i liked ranked up units, wheeling and marching. AoS does feel a bit too 40k for me, and I have 40k for that.

I tend to pick my systems so that they are a different experience and the only way i 'blur' that rule of thimb is if i play for the background. That background has been destroyed and there is not enough in AoS to warrant a ruling so i will be sticking with 8th edition. If i end up liking AoS i will simply create a new army

MG, have you looked at KOW as yet?  Would be interested on your thoughts on that.

My group has received AoS rather poorly. We've decided to try the KoW system instead. Here's basically our feelings summed up by one of our more eloquent guys.

http://warhammertruthiness.blogspot.com/2015/07/sigmarines-attack.html

Now this is just me, fantasy I just could not get into. I tried on 2 separate occasions (with Lizardmen and then Tomb Kings), both times I found the game to be just boring and I couldn't find any enjoyment in the game. However now with AOS, i've started an Ogre army and I really enjoy this game. Granted i've only had one game so far (annihilated a large beastman army!) but this game is for me, fun! I like the pick up and play aspect of it. No scrolling through a tome of rules for 5 minutes just to find one rule, minimal boundaries and smaller model counts. This game has started doing fairly well in my LGS and I can see it doing alright.

Plus it really grates on me when people say "no one likes AOS" there are plenty of AOS players out there who enjoy it 

Its probably better stated as "No tournament player like AoS as a tournament game" which is unsurprising, as it is by design not a tournament game.

How long it can continue as an easy/casual game remains to be seen

My son and I have been test driving the SDK (AoS points system) for a little bit, and it seems to be on the semi-right path, but I'm concerned that some of the synergies make for a few fights where the opponent is nearly helpless while the opponents lays waste to them.

I played a few gamesof AoS, and the fact that models have different ranges and that models in close combat must pile in toward the closest ennemy makes it in fact way more strategical.

The pile in toward the closest enemy means that units will stay in ranks because there are allies in their path so the shortest route is blocked. This gives you a enormous advantage when flanking because the enemy wont be able to encircle you with their mass and you will grind them, except if they retreat and reform during their move and ready themselves to receive your next charge
I also like the fact that various formations can be used with this loose system; I alwas do a V or cresent-like formation when I charge against enemy blocks so my units can charge the sides and front of the enemy at the same time so all my units are attaking against the enemy units on the edges only.

Also, in this game, attacks are more or less done one by one, and models slain are taken from the front of the unit, meaning that weapon range is very important because you can only kill enemys models within your own range. That makes longer battles with focus on skirmishes, shooting, and unit formations.

The only thing I have difficulty with is losing. I think ogres are way too strong, I did 44 wounds with a squad of 9 maneaters during their first round of close combat in my last game. And rolled to play first in the next turn, my opponent cryed and the game was finished. Playing with the same model count is impossible for us for obvious reasons. Using the same value of wounds seems better, but a bit off. I think players who are still playing like 8th ed in AoS are having a hard time because formations don't give ruled advantages anymore and they continue to mass their units in blocks all the time, which is often the worst formation to have.

To resume I think AoS is a great game (that could have used more words to describe its rules), but players will need some time to adjust to the very different way this game is played.


And ogres need the monstrous infantry rule again. Look at the rules for opening the forteress door: ''each players rolls a dice, +1 by 5 models within 3'' of the door'' so five ogres and five goblins are equally strong to push on a door... nice.

I love all this "new accounts", who accidentaly all have a positive take on AOS, it cries desperation from GW....

I've found it alright, but I don't have much experience of 8th to compare it to. I really don't think I'd like to play strangers, or people I don't really know from my local GW, because the game can be so easily broken, but against mates, definitely. We manage to more or less balance things just by not being dicks, and the games I've played have all been pretty close.

But therein lies a quieter problem - I'm not going to meet and play against new people anywhere near as much as I would have under 8th, because there's no unifying system of balance. I just don't trust them enough to not ruin any chance of fun we could have for the sake of winning.

Other than that, I do actually quite like AoS. I'm more looking forward to seeing some of the new models of Orcs and Dwarves etc (Orrucs/Duardin, fuckin' really? I suppose its unique...)

I love all this "new accounts", who accidentaly all have a positive take on AOS, it cries desperation from GW....

So because you have a negative view on the system, no one but GW officials can have a positive look on it? It's called people enjoying a new game, so calm down.

I'm hoping we can attract new members enjoying AoS to the Stronghold and I'm glad to see we have some new sign-ups, AoS might not be everyone's cup of tea but we're now a forum for WFB, AoS and Kings of War and fans of all of those (plus other games) are welcome here

With that said, let's get back on topic!