"En*Light*ened Ogres" - 3k Doubles list Idea, Ogres/Empire

Alrighty, fellow 'Guts and Tyrants!

I've been theorizing for a while, the idea of running a 3k list combining my two main armies, Ogres and Empire, via two separate 1500 lists in a doubles game. The ultimate goal behind this list is answering the question: "What would happen if Ogres had access to Lore of Light?" 

So, in my theoretical scenario, both lists will need to have their own General and BSBs to work, but nevertheless, here's what I was thinking:

Ogres, 1500

Tyrant - HA, Giantbreaker, Greedy Fist, Sword of Striking, TOTS, Enchanted Shield - 315
Bruiser - BSB, GW, HA, Dragonhelm, Crown of Command - 190
10 Ironguts - FC, Ban. of Swiftness - 475
3 Bulls - Champ, AHW - 103
4 MFC - IF, HA, Mus, Std, Dragonhide Banner - 350
3x1 Sabretusks - 63
TOTAL: 1496

Empire, 1500
Wizard Lord - 4-Light, Book of Ashur, Tal. of Endurance - 318
Wizard - 2-(Light/Metal?) , Dispel Scroll - 125
Captain - BSB, Full Plate, White Cloak of Ulric, Barded Warhorse, GW - 138
War.Priest - GW, HA, Barded Warhorse, ICI - 93
11 ICircle Knights - FC, Steel Standard, GW - 330
10 Handgunners - Champ-HLR, Mus, 5xArcher Detachment - 165
5 Pistoliers - 90
2x1 Cannons - 240
TOTAL: 1499

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The key idea is that the Ogres provide the bulk of the fighting, and the Empire are all supplements (with a secondary hammer in the knight brick). The Wizard Lord will run behind the Ironguts to avoid enemy shooting, and then buff them with magic. As per the "allies" rules, the characters can't join the units of other armies, but they can cast augments on one another

Any thoughts or ideas? Note that my collection doesn't have Demigryphs, and is mostly infantry and artillery pieces; I have been subbing some Bret knights in for my Inner Circle to ensure that I have enough models for the field.

I like it, but I think lore of light is wasted on ironguts. Of the three combat buffs, two are half negated by the great weapons. I'd rather have a block of ogres with a sixpack of guts as support rather than the other way around. You have high strength attacks in the characters if you need it, or take beasts on the L2 for wildform. Also I'd change some or all of the knights for halberds. As is your L4 only has 10 bodies to protect him, and the nature of ogres and knights is that they will be too far away to help if the bunker gets in trouble. Besides that, timewarped halberds are great in combat, so if the ogres need help you have a backup plan.

I really love seeing an army like this as I play both, Empire and Ogres.
I should test this out sometime...

But anyway.
I can probably be of more advice with the Empire, as I've played it a lot more than Ogres.
I don't think you want Book of Ashur on a whimpy Empire wizard who dies to a breeze, I'd say pass on that.
Captain is fine, I think you could take Dragonhelm and some other magic items to use the GW to better effect. You could have 1+ rerollable with great weapon on horseback, without shields that is.
For your Priest I would definitely take shield + hand weapon. He doesn't really deal any damage (2 attacks, whoopdy doo) and he's best at buffing allies with hatred and prayers.

Handgunners aren't ideal as you probably know if you've played empire. They move slow, they shoot bad and the shooting isn't amazing. Champion with HLR seems like a waste of points.

Pistoliers serve a role that empire severely lacks, but again, they do it poorly. I guess you can pick off some chaff and then sacrifice them for redirection, although you do already have 3 sabretusks.

Cannons. 

Light magic is an ogre's wet dream. Double movement with the banner of swiftness?! WS10 I10, maybe even ASF Mournies? Oh lordy! Even canceling out ASL can be helpful against certain enemies, like huge bricks of GW dwarfs who are suddenly being stomped out of existence before they swing. Delicious.

I think the only thing that needs a little work is the Empire support. Pistoliers are pretty garbage, and you already do have the sabres for redirection anyway. Depending on what you have for models, replacing them and the handgunners for a nice bunker of halberdiers or even swordsmen would be better suited to protect the fragile human wizards. Archer detachments work great as chaff too. Slower than sabres or cav, but they can become an extreme nuisance for combat blocks, and can be an emergency escape unit for your wizards to hide in because of their skirmishing.

Light magic is so cheap to cast, you don't need the Book of Ashur to get 2-3 spells off on an average phase. Earthing rod might be better to prevent the worst from miscasts.

+1 to the 1+ re-rollable BSB build, it's the most survivable kit for him.

I love this doubles list idea, let us know how it goes!

Well, to start off, the Lvl-4 will not be attached to any unit. He's riding a horse and will be running around right behind the Ironguts. The Handgunners were there because now I think about it it's silly to have them I also gave the Lvl-4 the 5++, which might help a bit, but the main idea is to protect him by hiding him behind a lot of large bodies. The Book of Ashur was a spur of the moment choice, and could easily be changed to other things if I so choose

The plan is to have the Lvl-2 on foot hanging out with the Archers, because the skirmishers rule gives the Wizard a little bit more protection. In retrospect, I should just axe the Handgunners and run a basic unit of Archers instead.

The knights can only have lances or great weapons. And now that I think about it, I probably should stick to lances, just in case I do get off one of the buffs (so that they could benefit!).

As for the character builds, I kinda threw this list out at like 2am trying to rapidly put my thoughts to pen (or, screen, rather), so I will probably change them around a lot. I'll take more notes on the War-Priest's build, since normally I just run Luthor Huss ... Btw, what is the Captain BSB 1+ rerollable build, anyways? I'm assuming it's all the armor and a Dawnstone with something else to accent?

The thing behind having Ironguts instead of Ogres is that, although the ASF negates the ASL, if I manage to get that off with the WS10/I10 spell, they will still probably be swinging first, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+ (against most things), which to me is amusing. Although I could get more bodies out of having Ogres, I think I wrote this list with Ironguts in mind. However, I have no problem changing that in future playtests

I thought about having an Empire infantry block in there as well, but they would end up getting outpaced by the rest of the army that they would be unused points for the most part. I planned on putting the bulk of my Empire points into supporting roles to help buffer and enhance the Ogres as they marched towards their next meal.

Thanks for the feedback so far! I like what you've both said, and if I ever do manage to get this game in real life, I will be adapting the list to what I've read here

I have never played as empire, but I have faced them quite a bit (two of my most memorable close tournament games were against empire armies, lost both just barely).  So, here are my admittedly unqualified thoughts on what I have faced:
Pistolleers can actually be quite effective, wound easily, cut through high armor, ideal for flank protection and staying out of combat.  I would keep them.

No engineer for the cannon?

I agree on the infantry blocks getting left behind, it ends up being a large point sink that's only purpose is to house a character.  Would be useful only in situations where your whole army stays stationary

Btw, what is the Captain BSB 1+ rerollable build, anyways? I'm assuming it's all the armor and a Dawnstone with something else to accent?

If he's mounted I think it's just Full Plate (4+), mounted (3), barding (2) and shield (1+) with the dawnstone and maybe a cheap magic weapon for ethereals, or just a lance. 1+ rerollable is fantastic.

Btw, what is the Captain BSB 1+ rerollable build, anyways? I'm assuming it's all the armor and a Dawnstone with something else to accent?

If he's mounted I think it's just Full Plate (4+), mounted (3), barding (2) and shield (1+) with the dawnstone and maybe a cheap magic weapon for ethereals, or just a lance. 1+ rerollable is fantastic.

Yup, fullplate, barded w.horse, shield + magic gear, usually Dawnstone.
Alternatively you can leave the shield out and take a GW, then from magic gear take dragonhelm and dawnstone. Then you have 1+ armour rerollable and a 2+ flame ward.

But, what's better, 1+ rerollable with the 2+ flame wars or getting a universal Ward save?

Well if you take the dawnstone you aren't getting much of a ward save anyway. At best a crappy 6+, so you don't really miss out on anything.

By the way, how does magic work in a list like this? Do you split the dice between wizards if both armies have them, or do you have a single universal pool for both armies?

By the way, how does magic work in a list like this? Do you split the dice between wizards if both armies have them, or do you have a single universal pool for both armies?

That's a good question! I hadn't thought of that

My assumption was universal dice pool, but if it were split dice, then since my Ogre list intentionally doesn't have any casters, would they steal half the dice and make it forfeit, or would the Empire wizards get all the dice as default?

I guess it depends on the game, the opponent, and the scenario

By the way, how does magic work in a list like this? Do you split the dice between wizards if both armies have them, or do you have a single universal pool for both armies?

That's a good question! I hadn't thought of that

My assumption was universal dice pool, but if it were split dice, then since my Ogre list intentionally doesn't have any casters, would they steal half the dice and make it forfeit, or would the Empire wizards get all the dice as default?

I guess it depends on the game, the opponent, and the scenario

I got really excited about the thought of running and Ogres + Empire list, so let us consult to rulebook to solve this!

BRB p. 136 States that Empire belongs to the Forces of Order

p. 137 Tells us that Ogre Kingdoms are neutral, or non-aligned.

P. 138 "Suspicious Allies": "Units from non-aligned forces are always considered to be suspicious allies..."

P. 137 Magic, under "Trusted Allies" : "If the alliance contains only Trusted or Suspicious allies (which ogres are), power and dispel dice generated by the winds of magic CAN be split between the allied armies as the controlling player wishes, but this must be done before any spellcasting is attempted."

So, you must split the dice between the two armies before you cast anything. Therefore you can give all the dice to the Empire, to the Ogres or split them between the armies.

Well done on the homework, Jomppexx! I didn't even think to consult the BRB lol...

And for that, good Tyrant, you have earned your first Gnoblar You've been very helpful in the critiques for my list, and that's definitely gnoblar-worthy!