end times elves

Hi
I have a 2500 point game against end times elves tomorrow. Any last minute tips and recommendations?

Firebellies, hellheart.  Those are killers against elves due to their templates and over reliance on magic.  If you have one, I'd also take a scraplauncher for the template on that too.

With combined elves, you can have a wide variety of troop types and army styles.  So, you could see an all mounted list, or a gunline, or ambush or banner of the world dragon deathstars or ...

So, unless you know what you are going to see, I recommend keeping in mind that they are all T3 and ASF.  So a tyrant with the ASF sword is pretty good to help you take out some of their stuff at the same time as their own attacks.

Also, they can usually shoot well, so keep your sabertusks and other weak chaff atleast 6" apart to avoid unnecessary panic checks.

Thanks for the valid points. Will have to do some changes in my list for sure. For one, i was not going to take firebellies, but you're right. And the asf sword will be handy.

Thundertusk if you have one. Stonethrower template and then the frost aura will strip elves of their ASF rerolls.

A decent elf player will have lots of bolt throwers.  With the new end times rules, you could see a maximum of 13 bolt throwers of one kind or another.  Not that this would happen, but you will most likely see 3 or 4.  So if you are going to use the big gribblies, make sure they are screened well.

Also, they have decent access to poison shooting (hagbane arrows) and poison attacks (witch elves).  So even though they may wound on 6's, their poison will alleviate much of that burden for them.

This is my temporary list:

2500 Pts - Ogre Kingdoms Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2435.5

Slaughtermaster (1#, 345 pts)
. . 1 Slaughtermaster, 285 pts = (base cost 250 + Level 4 Wizard 35)
. . . . 1 Fencer's Blades, 35 pts
. . . . 1 Glittering Scales, 25 pts
. . . . 1 The Lore of the Great Maw, 0 pts

Firebelly (1#, 170 pts)
. . 1 Firebelly, 120 pts
. . . . 1 Hellheart, 50 pts
. . . . 1 The Lore of Fire, 0 pts

Bruiser (1#, 134 pts)
. . 1 Bruiser, 134 pts = (base cost 105 + Battle Standard Bearer 25 + Ironfist 4)

Ironguts (8#, 374 pts)
. . 7 Ironguts, 321 pts = 7 * 43 (base cost 43) + Bellower Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
. . . . 1 Gutlord, 53 pts

Ogres (8#, 270 pts)
. . 7 Ogres, 230 pts = 7 * 30 (base cost 30) + Bellower Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
. . . . 1 Crusher, 40 pts

Gnoblars (15#, 62.5 pts)
. . 15 Gnoblar, 62.5 pts = 15 * 2.5 (base cost 2.5) + Gnoblar Trappers 25

Leadbelchers (6#, 268 pts)
. . 6 Leadbelchers, 268 pts = 6 * 43 (base cost 43) + Bellower Mus 10

Mournfang Cavalry (4#, 350 pts)
. . 4 Ogre Mournfang Cavalry, 300 pts = 4 * 70 (base cost 60 + Heavy Armour 5 + Ironfist 5) + Bellower Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
. . . . 1 Dragonhide Banner, 50 pts

Sabertusks (1#, 21 pts)
. . 1 Sabretusks, 21 pts

Sabertusks (1#, 21 pts)
. . 1 Sabretusks, 21 pts

Thundertusk (3#, 250 pts)
. . 1 Thundertusk, 250 pts

Ironblaster (3#, 170 pts)
. . 1 Ironblaster, 170 pts

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Army Subtype: Ogre Kingdoms Army; Special Rules: Allow Magic of The End Times, Forbid Chaos Dwarfs in WoC, Forbid Regiments of Renown; File Version: 2.87
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 345 (0 - 1250)
Points of Heroes: 304 (0 - 1250)
Points of Core: 706.5 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 660 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 420 (0 - 625)


I still have 100 points left, and i can remove some stuff to make way for some magic items on the lord and heroes. Any IdeaS?

Since I'm the last one joining the gaming group and the first time I'm playing 8th edition / end-times, my opponent told me that he's using a mild list. Besides, this is part of an exhibition stand which the local distributor of Games workshop is organising in conjunction with the national scale modelling society, so it's going to be a casual thing (i hope so anyway).

I would suggest a dispell scroll on the butcher and few look out gnoblers on your standards.  If going specifically against elves, the ASF sword plus Armor of destiny is better than the glittering/fencers becasue you are stripping his ASF rerolls (better than -1 to hit) and the ward + heavy armor is better than -1 extra to hit.  In my opinion.

My opponent was kind enough to send me a list of what he'll be using tomorrow:

30 crossbowmen
20 cold one knights
3 bolt throwers
15 dark riders

dreadlord on dark pegasus
lvl 4 sorceress + lvl 1 sorceress
master on cold one bsb
high elf noble fuq griffin

EDIT: I've realised I've made a boatload of points, these are all suggestions not things that HAVE to be changed.


His list is super ranged heavy, so you need to counter that first of all, I'll throw out some suggestions against that to start:

First thing I would suggest is removing the Thundertusk, I think that will be shot off the table.

Then Scouting Maneaters and another Ironblaster should give you enough threats to kill those pesky Bolt Throwers and the Maneaters should dent the Crossbowmen after.

Final thing is to throw Ironcurse Icon on your Slaughtermaster.


Next thing is, you seem weak to his magic so I'll make suggestions for that:

Take a Scroll of dispell on your Slaughtermaster and use it on Purple Sun which I would expect.

Second of all, consider replacing your Fencers Blades and Glittering Scales with a  Talisman of Preservation, 4+ Ward save is epic against his list  I feel that Fencers Blades have limited use against a shooty army.


Lastly, the Gutstar is only on 8 rerollable leadership which could be fatal if you are charged:

To fix this you can add Crown of Command to your Bruiser for the awesome Stubborn. By also adding Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield and Heavy armor, he'll be 2+ ward fire and 2+ armor save.

Your guts can take the Banner of Discipline for just 15 points and that boosts you to 9 leadership, which is a 3% change to fail your leadership test down from 16%.


I was a bit too lazy to do the maths however I think you might have to get rid of more than just the Thundertusk, you can afford to lose the Dragonhide banner from the MFC if you need 60, in that case put them in two squads of 2. After that you can reduce the Gnoblars and Leadbelchers down if you have to cut even more.

This is an updated list:

2500 Pts - Ogre Kingdoms Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2489

Slaughtermaster (1#, 388 pts)
. . 1 Slaughtermaster, 288 pts = (base cost 250 + Level 4 Wizard 35 + Ironfist 3)
. . . . 1 Sword of Swift Slaying, 25 pts
. . . . 1 Armour of Destiny, 50 pts
. . . . 1 Dispel Scroll, 25 pts
. . . . 1 The Lore of the Great Maw, 0 pts

Firebelly (1#, 172 pts)
. . 1 Firebelly, 122 pts = (base cost 120 + Additional Hand Weapon 2)
. . . . 1 Hellheart, 50 pts
. . . . 1 The Lore of Fire, 0 pts

Bruiser (1#, 183 pts)
. . 1 Bruiser, 138 pts = (base cost 105 + Battle Standard Bearer 25 + Heavy Armour 4 + Ironfist 4)
. . . . 1 Dragonhelm, 10 pts
. . . . 1 Crown of Command, 35 pts

Ironguts (9#, 432 pts)
. . 8 Ironguts, 364 pts = 8 * 43 (base cost 43) + Bellower Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
. . . . 1 Gutlord, 53 pts
. . . . 1 Standard of Discipline, 15 pts

Ogres (7#, 234 pts)
. . 7 Ogres, 234 pts = 7 * 32 (base cost 30 + Ironfist 2) + Bellower Mus 10

Leadbelchers (6#, 268 pts)
. . 6 Leadbelchers, 268 pts = 6 * 43 (base cost 43) + Bellower Mus 10

Mournfang Cavalry (4#, 350 pts)
. . 4 Ogre Mournfang Cavalry, 300 pts = 4 * 70 (base cost 60 + Heavy Armour 5 + Ironfist 5) + Bellower Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
. . . . 1 Dragonhide Banner, 50 pts

Sabertusks (1#, 21 pts)
. . 1 Sabretusks, 21 pts

Sabertusks (1#, 21 pts)
. . 1 Sabretusks, 21 pts

Thundertusk (3#, 250 pts)
. . 1 Thundertusk, 250 pts

Ironblaster (3#, 170 pts)
. . 1 Ironblaster, 170 pts

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Army Subtype: Ogre Kingdoms Army; Special Rules: Allow Magic of The End Times, Forbid Chaos Dwarfs in WoC, Forbid Regiments of Renown; File Version: 2.87
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 388 (0 - 1250)
Points of Heroes: 355 (0 - 1250)
Points of Core: 666 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 660 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 420 (0 - 625)



I'm sticking with the thundertusk just because I like the model and I have never used it.

Army builder would not let me put the enchanted shield and dragon helm on the bruiser!!

I really like the updates, I only have a couple of suggestions for the updated list really:

First On the Slaughtermaster, if you replace the Sword of Swift Slaying you can get a Sword of Striking for +1 hit, along with a Shield and the Ironcurse Icon all for the same points cost which I think is well worth it.

Second, if you attach the Firebelly to the Ironguts, you can change the Ogre's to two packs of 3, which would give you enough points to also include the third Sabertusk. This change gives two more drops and should help with deployment, which is key against ranged Elves.

Good luck with the game, it will be tough if he decides to bring any of the special characters on dragons.

Looking at his list, he is going to be very fast and on you quickly.  but, he will be split in two as his stationary forces will be behind his advancing cavalry.  With smart deployment, you can use his own troops as a screen for his shooting.  Remember that his xbows have 24" range.  So keep your main force out of range.  His cold ones will be his main hammer, and are easily redirected/speedbumped by your sabertusks.  I would think that this list would use heavens magic and his SS would stay in the back with a xbow unit.  Use brain gobbler to flesh out dispell dice and then trollguts with the rest of your advantage.

Cannon off his griffin noble ASAP.  Then focus your iron blasters on his RBT.  Use gnoblers trappers to screen your gutstar.  Cold ones are expensive and they don't like dangerous terrain.

You will have a hard time getting the hellheart into a promising position if he bunkers his mages.  I'd try for a solid character wall in the iron guts.  SM with 4++ and ASF sword + potion fo str or OTS.  A bruiser with 4++ and Ironcurse icon.  Firebelly with DS and some defense.

He won't take life because his forces will be too far apart for the range of life to be effective.  So don't worry about regen.  He will be worried about your own regen, so will have the flaming benner somewhere; probably on the cold one bus.  So, take the 2++ items against fire on your dudes.

If you are playing old school magic and could pick your spells, I'd take: +1 T, Trollguts, brain gobbler, and the magic missile S2 no armor puts fear into expensive T3 cold ones..

He will target the belchers.  They are T3 elves so fear belchers mightily.  Use them as bait.

An update - I lost the game.

As expected his wizards remained with the 3 units of crossbowmen (10 each).  The bolt throwers were ineffective throughout the whole game.

I managed to kill a 10 unit of cold one riders with the mournfangs on the charge, but with a unit of free cavalry he had moving around them the mournfangs did nothing else. The thundertusk was a waste of points as the harpoon did nothing - I was expecting too much from BS3, and with the elves always striking first the aura was useless as he still was at a higher initiative. I'm not sure about this but my opponent said that the asl just cancels out the asf. The thundertusk was far away from the combat anyway.

The leadbelchers killed a unit of fast cavalry he had but in his turn he targeted them with some crossbowmen, they lost
two, fleed and never rallied. This was partly my mistake as they were away from my bsb and general.

The ironblaster had a hard time against his pegasus and griffon heroes due to his ward saves (one had a 2+ ward against war machines, the other had a 3 or 4 ward save).

In a bid to get rid of his magic - first purple sun was dispel scrolled and a pit of shades dispelled with dice - I moved with my ironguts and ogres towards the 3 units of crossbowman - i lost a lot of IGs but persisted - then charged a 10 unit crosbowman with the wizard 4 - killed some 8 or 9, but failed to overrun. With the firebelly I managed to kill most of another crossbowman unit that had the level one with the signature spell, but they did not flee.

In the last round he killed the thundertusk and ironblaster that were left at the back, rear charged my remaining IGs with slaughtermaster and bsb and killed all IGs.

I did not use the 2 sabretusks correctly and they did not manage to reach any war machines.


I'll be using the same list tomorrow and on tuesday - to see what happens - but it looks like the thundertask will forever stay at home.

I'm not sure about this but my opponent said that the asl just cancels out the asf.

This is correct. A unit of White Lions for example have ASF for being an Elf and ASL from the great weapon. SO they just attack in initiative order. I hope this answers your question

Thanks Minigiant
I'm now having a look at my army builder list, and it also confirms it in the footnotes.

Yep they will still strike first in initiative order, but they would lose all their re-rolls to hit from ASF. It makes a big difference.

The harpoon launcher isn't that hot. Its best to view it as a nice bonus if you get lucky, but definitely dont depend on it. The stonethrower attack however is very reliable, and I'm surprised it didnt do much for you.

Having played elves, Ive always found bolt throwers ineffective especially against the big nasties. They are far better at mowing down heavy cav and elite infantry than anything with high T.

I totally forgot about the stonethrower! This was my first time with the TT.

Oops! Ah well, we live and we learn!

Cold one knights on the charge are nasty especially if they get their re-rolls.  Bolt throwers I find do really well for me when I play dark elves.  No missfires.

I think some gnoblars would be decent with trappers.  Against an mounted list like that, getting a few dangerous terrains and a spinemarrow can be crucial especially in conjunction with sabertusks.St6 vs T2 is the same as St6 vs T4.  Better that those lances take out cheap gnoblars than expensive ironguts.

If you have the models, I would take maneaters with scout and swiftstride or ItP and get a flank assault going.  This would open up more holes in his advance and tasty flank shots for your iron blasters.

By also adding Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield and Heavy armor, he'll be 2+ ward fire and 2+ armor save.

I'm afraid this is impossible. You cannot take both the Enchanted Shield and Dragonhelm. They are both magical armour. Nothing outside the Armour of Silvered Steel can grant an Ogre on foot a 2+ armour save.