2400 MSU OK vs Empire

Hey guys

Without further ado this is the first game I've played in a while against a 'real' opponent so whilst my rust really shows it some instances keep in mind as well it's the MSU concept I was trying to once again a brand new concept to myself so it was always going to be an uphill battle.

Ogre Kingdoms vs. Empire
========================

Overview
--------
Date played: Tuesday, 6 January 2015

Ogre Kingdoms
-------------
  (T1) Tyrant
      - Sword of Anti-Heroes, Armour of Destiny, Dragonbane Gem, Other Trickster's Shard
  (B1) Bruiser
      - BSB, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation, Ironcurse Icon
  (F) Firebelly
      - Great Weapon, Arabyan Carpet, Level 2, Lore of Fire   
  (H) Hunter
      - Harpoon Launcher, Talisman of Endurance, Sword of Might
  (I1) 8 Ironguts
      - Full Command, Banner of Swiftness
  (O1) 3 Ogres
      - Extra Hand Weapons, Musician
  (O2) 3 Ogres
      - Extra Hand Weapons, Musician
  (O3) 3 Ogres
      - Extra Hand Weapons, Musician
  (S1) Sabretusk
  (S2) Sabretusk
  (S3) Sabretusk
  (MC1) 2 Mournfang Cavalry
      - Ironfist, Heavy Armour, Musician
  (MC2) 2 Mournfang Cavalry
      - Ironfist, Heavy Armour, Musician
  (I2) Ironblaster
  (S4) Stonehorn
      - Harpoon Launcher

Empire
------
  (WL) Wizard Lord
      - Lore of Heavens (Comet, Chain Lightning, Harmonic Convergence, Iceshard Blizzard), Power Scroll, Opal Amulet
  (W) Wizard
      - Lore of Heavens (Wind Blast), Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring
  (C) Captain
      - BSB, Full Plate, Enchanted Shield   
  (E1) Engineer
      - Steed, Barding
  (E2) Engineer
      - Steed, Barding
  (H1) Hunter
      - Ring of Volans (Pit of Shades)
  (H2) 28 Halberdiers
      - Standard, Musician
  (S) 20 Spearmen
      - Standard, Musician
  (K1) 5 Knights
      - Standard, Musician, Great Weapons
  (K2) 5 Knights
      - Standard, Musician
  (K3) 5 Knights
      - Standard, Musician
  (DK) 4 Demigryph Knights
      - Musician
  (GC1) Great Cannon
  (GC2) Great Cannon
  (P1) 5 Pistoliers
      - Outrider, Repeater Pistol
  (P2) 5 Pistoliers
      - Outrider, Repeater Pistol
  (LoH1) Luminark of Hysh
  (LoH2) Luminark of Hysh

Deployment
----------
 

Empire wins the roll off and goes first.

Turn 1 - Empire
---------------
 

Magic is 7 vs 6.  I dispel the first Luminark however the second chips a wound off the MFC.  Comet fails to cast and I dispel Wind Blast.  The Cannon drops the Ironblaster and the Pistoliers drop the Sabretusk panicking the MFC 6" away.  Great start for Empire.

Turn 1 - Ogre Kingdoms
----------------------
 

Harpoon Launcher takes a wound from the DGK.  Magic is shutdown.

Turn 2 - Empire
---------------
 

12 vs 6 Magic Phase.  Windblast onto the Firebelly is dispelled, Luminark is dispelled whilst the other fails to wound the MFC.  Comet is cast whilst Harmonic Convergence onto the DGK is stopped.  3 wounds onto the Ogres via shooting and 4 wounds onto the Stonehorn via cannons.

Turn 2 - Ogre Kingdoms
----------------------
 

Stonehorn charges into the Knights, Ogres tackled the great weapon wielding Knights, the MFC try to join them but fail their charge skidding 4" forward.  Finally the Ironguts and Hunter slam into the DGK.  Magic phase is shut down and the Comet comes crashing down however killing the Sabretusk, the Stonehorn, 3 wounds on the MFC, 2 dead Knights and 8 wounds onto the Ironguts.  Ouch.  The firebelly torches 7 Spearmen from 20 hits (not impressed).  Ironguts take 3 wounds and dish out 6 in return breaking the DGK however the Hunter is unable to catch them whilst the guts reform.

Turn 3 - Empire
---------------
 

Knights charge the depleted MFC who flee but are caught with a huge charge from the Knights (19").  6 vs 4 Magic and the Luminark targets the Hunter however I dispel this.  Comet goes IF and the cascade killed 15 Halberdiers.  Cannon drops the Hunter and pup whilst the Pistol fire makes short work of the Ogres.  The Knight and Ogre dish a wound each but hold.

Turn 3 - Ogre Kingdoms
----------------------
 

Ironguts charge into the Knights as does the MFC into their nearest target.  Magic phase blows 5 vs 4 and I IF a 3D6 fireball into an engineer searing him however the resulting cascade kills the Firebelly and puts 2 wounds onto the DGK.  Ironguts kill Knights and overrun into spearmen.  MFC kill knights and overrun 11".

Turn 4 - Empire
---------------
 

Comet comes down killing 9 Spearmen, 8 wounds onto the Ironguts.  Both Luminarks are dispelled.  MFC cannoned off the table.  Spearmen killed.

Turn 4 - Ogre Kingdoms
----------------------
 

Ogre charges Halberdiers who flee and a failed charge turns south as it blocks the Ironguts.

Turn 5 - Empire
---------------
 

Pistols kill Ogres, Cannon kills BSB and Irongut leaving a lonely Tyrant.

Turn 5 - Ogre Kingdoms
----------------------
 

Concede to a royal back side kicking.

Result - Empire Victory

Conclusion:
So I've had some time to absorb the game and decided now it a good time to write up a bit of a conclusion and debrief for myself.  The anger has subsided and now my red vision has been replaced by normal clarity and crisp vision.

From the top against my opponents list the key threats were the cannons and the Luminarks.  The cannons have the ability to smash the Ironblaster which they kindly did turn 1 and of course chip away the wounds from the Stonehorn.  Along with the Luminarks the army is perfectly equipped to deal with these two threats of mine and unfortunately with nothing to answer the cannons with and nothing scouting or quick to penetrate the back lines I wasn't confident that I'd have the cannons dead anytime after turn 1.  Yes I could have taken the Firebelly to them but that would have meant he wasn't being used elsewhere.

I felt my deployment was pretty good up until I totally forgot about Vanguarding units.  Whoops.  Things would have changed a bit had I remembered this tiny fact.  Not to worry.  Chalk that up as a learning experience and almost re-learning the game.  Some explanations, the Ironblaster was put so far on the flank because I was trying to get my opponent to split his cannons up.  Secondly my army was deployed far away from the enemy as originally he had a Helblaster in the list and then he changed his list last minute without notification so I was staying out of a danger zone for something that never eventuated.

My Ogres did practically nothing all game beside happily act as targets for Pistoliers, a sheer waste of points if ever I saw it.  My bad.  When MFC rallied perhaps I should have faced them West to threaten the fast cavalry.  I even consciously thought about this and chose to ignore it hoping they'd just go away.

Ultimately the Ironguts were aiming for the characters and I fell for the oldest trick in the book.  I didn't even contemplate the characters would jump ship into the Halberdiers and upon careful inspection of the list I'm sure that's the sole reason there is another block of infantry in the list just to protect the characters as it's not the infantry that is doing the damage in the list.  I can't believe I missed that one.

As I mentioned to SM in an email I feel like the Stonehorn and Ironblaster are free points to my opponent in a game like this, they can just be dealt with too easily and I would think in 10 games with the game lists the IB and SH would never make it through so to me it's more like a 2000 point game vs a 2400 point.  Could be me having a royal cry about it but hey I stand by it.

Rather than go through what didn't work because that list is far too long I'll go for the shorter version and list what did work.

Although magic for me was more or less non existent the Firebelly got into a position once and peeled a rank off a unit and it was poor rolling, that was cool.  The Hunter darting up the flank to eventually hit the DGK (and do zero damage as well mind you) was great however I'll come back to that in some points below.  That's all I can think of right now unfortunately.

On the list itself now although I won't change it for a few games straight away I'm coming back to the same points I considered when I ran some test games:

Magic - A level 2 in a competitive list?  I don't think it works.  Spells from the enemy will just leak through eventually if there is a level 4 at the helm.

Ironblaster - In my beastmaster list I never used one and it was a welcomed thought.  In any 'normal' list it's the opponents priority target.  By removing it then I have one less thing to worry about and my opponent can generally only target monstrous infantry targets from that stage on or MFC.

Stonehorn - Once again 250 points that made zero impact in the game.  Sore point number #15.

I won't go into what I could replace these units with, that's another post that may or may not eventuate in the future.

This game at face value should leave a lot of doubt as to the future of MSU for Ogres but please don't confuse a player's terrible skill with the concept of a list.  It's a hard pill to swallow to even contemplate trying this list again when I have several lists that I like and have a proven track record.  I guess I'm certainly a Stubborn Maneater if that's the case.  So if you've been following my solitary hammer posts and drawn some inspiration from them don't let this terrible display of general ship deter you from having a go at something yourself.  Sometimes things certainly don't go our way and you have those days where you just shouldn't have picked up dice.  This could be one of those.

Playing non MSU is so much easier in my opinion, not as many angles, over runs etc to think about and to be constantly aware of.  Clearly I wasn't aware of them enough and failed hard at picking them or even preparing for them.  Such an embarrassing beginning to a series of games that is bloody hard to consider trying again.

For your first game back and trying a different strategy, mistakes were to be expected.  Also knowing your opponent you really did not pick a gentle return to Warhammer!

With that being said, I've found that just using a level 2 can work, but you really have to make killing their wizard a priority.  Looking forwards to seeing how your next battle goes, I've drawn inspiration from your Solitary Hammer posts, as well as Swordmaster's latest battle reports to be giving an MSU battle a crack myself.  Hopefully there's no wacky shenanigans going on this time and I can actually do a battle report.

Toddles told me you might be walking the MSU path as well.    Good times, means someone else will be suffering around the camp fire with me! 

That being said Todd is a good player and he's in 'training' for a tournament but I don't like excuses, so I blame me for everything.   

Good luck with it mate.

Hi Jimmy,

It is going to be a short post, more like an introduction to the discussion. I have only quickly browsed through your report now but I promise to go into as many details as possible.

I know that a loss is always a bitter pill to take. Even more so when you were so enthusiastic to get back to the games and spent so much time brainstorming about the new concept. It is just a single game, however and I will do my best to convince you not only to look at it as a perfect material to study but also to keep the army as it is for at least a re-match.

Changing army list is easy but the general purpose is to get the force that you are familiar with and that can perform against any opponent.

It is a learning process. You will stumble, you will fall and it will hurt. You will hear that it was stupid idea and that it was an evidence it does not work. But new paths are never easy. And they should not be.

I want you to put yourself in a position you often are. An excellent fitness trainer. And you have a new guy that is super enthusiastic but his first training/competition didn't go as well as he imagined. To the point he wants to give up. What would you do to encourage him to keep it going? How do you motivate your students to have that grit and no matter how many times they fall they should get up again?

It is just a game but I think the principles are the same. You started something new and simply want to be good at it.

Now to the game itself. Before I post again I would like you to do the following:

1. Write about Todd's army, either about separate choices or in general. Identify the main threats and possible ways of handling them with the tools you have in your army. Ask yourself, did you try to anticipate how Todd is going to play and if yes, was it what really happened? Don't worry about stating obvious (although it does not have to be the case). Just write it down.

Personally, I start with list run down, point by point and try to asses strengths, weaknesses and methods of addressing the threat. Even describing ideal situation is great as it gives you the idea where you want your units to be.

2. Talk about the battlefield. What particular terrain was? How did you expect it to affect the game? How you wanted to use the pieces of terrain to your advantage? Did you choose the side and if yes, what made you do so? If you didn't, would you still take the one you got? yes? no? why?

3. Deployment, the most important phase of the game. What was the order of deployment? What did you think would be Todd's formation? Did he deploy the way you expected? What was your initial plan of deployment? Did you find yourself reacting to his drops or maybe his deployment didn't affect you at all? Would you deploy the same again? Yes? No? Why?

I want you to apply a very good advice I got during my professional career and I think it can be applied to the games of warhammer. Instead of looking at your games in terms of victories (good) and defeats (bad) try to simply look at the results. There are no good or bad results. They just provide certain information. And your goal is to extract that information by interpreting the result.

In other words, focus on what led to particular outcome rather than the outcome itself. And in the process we should get some ideas what to do next time to change that outcome.

Cheers!

P.S. Not that short after all

Hey Jimmy

I have read a lot of swordies reports and I think his report technique he outluined above will really help get your head around MSU. MSU for Ogres will be a hard road i think, but will be very rewarding in the end.

A few things I picked up in your game.

First up, you had to be the aggressor in this game. The Empire had you both outgunned and had significant magic dominance. This meant there were several key threats you needed to deal with. The cannons were the big one, especially as both had the support of an engineer. The 2nd I think is actually the pistoliers. Everyone under values them, but I find they do a ton of work in my Empire lists. These guys not only hamper your advance, but their shooting and movement is ideally suited to dealing with your small units.
The only other real threat to you was the Demis. These can be handled by the guts or blocked by sabres and for me a less worrying.

They best units for dealing with the threats posed were your Hunter, Flyerbelly and Mournfang units. They have the movement and enough damage output to do the job.

Given your deployment what would I have done differently (other than ensuring those Mournfang were not within 6" of the sabre and probably at an angle to see the left flank better)?
I would have split the Sabre and Hunter at the first opportunity. The sabre could be used to block the Demis while the Hunter worked to the backfield to threaten Luminarch's/cannons.
In turn 2 I would have faced the Firebelly at the cannons. Trying to Fireball 1 and be ready to charge the other next turn.
If the Mournfang hadn't fled you would have had a chance at rolling up that flank with them and 1 of the 3 ogre units... at worst you would have had units fleeing thus being less effective.

Looking forward to see you progress with this army....I myself have been looking at getting a Flyerbelly and Hunter into the same list, so am keen to see how these guys fair.

Thanks for the comments gents.  I really appreciate them all.  Will have to try a far more analytical approach to my pre deployment I think and really get some notable match ups according to my strengths of the list.  I think half the problem as well is rushing things I don't need to be.

Hi Jimmy,

Let me continue with army lists short description. I am glad to see you had some comments already but I didn't read them yet so I am not affected by them in my own post. If it happens I repeat what somebody else has just written it simply means we picked up the some thing!

Ogre Kingdoms

I will provide some general comments mainly to see if I can assess relative strengths and weaknesses correctly. Normally, I would do so for the enemy army but since I haven't played with OK before it is equally important.

Tyrant - with T5, 5W and 4++ ward as well as 2++ against flaming attacks he can be on tough nut to crack. With Sword of Anti-heroes and OTS he is also very well equipped to make any other character shy of entering the combat, in particular in the days of herohammer return.

Despite that cannons are still a threat so he should definitely start the game with the unit and potentially jump out if there is a good opportunity.

BSB - another very important character, in my opinion even more than the general because his Ld re-rolls are priceless. Tooled up for some protective wargear, he should be kept in safety anyway, possibly waving his flag from the second rank or even second line. He can, of course, add to close combat but make sure he is covering the corners to do so and that not many attacks are directed at him.

Firebelly - flying wonder weapon and a unit of one! He has a great mobility and some options for ranged attacks. I would use him to scout the flanks and hunt down some annoying fast but lightly armored troops, preferably outside of the influence of the BSB and/or general so they can panic easier.

Hunter - another character doubling as a unit, his vanguard move can be great asset. He can surprise the enemy with his harpoon but can also hunt down (pun intended!) stragglers, war machines and add his attacks to combined charges.

Ogres - this is the type of a unit I was wondering about. Sometimes it pays off to use the smallest units. But here I would rather combine them and look for points elsewhere to get 2 x 5 with champ and muso. In that situation you can use them as character bunkers too and if one of them joins them you have 6 models and your impacts are S5. It also makes it less transparent where your General and BSB go. Or allows to jump from one unit to another.

They are your regular rank and file, pretty average in what they do so choose your combats carefully.

Ironguts - elite infantry, hard hitters of the army. They can do some damage even if they hit last. Enemy knows that so they might be the priority for small arms shooting. They might need some shielding from the enemy shooters then.

Sabertusks - great unit with so many uses. Protect them and maybe even put them at the rear so that they can be safe but at the same time they can dart forward when needed.

Mournfangs - more hard hitters. They can do damage on their own but can easily charge together in a frontal charge and decimate the enemy. In fact, any combination of the charge from these and from Stonehorn + Ironblaster can be potentially devastating. I would look for such opportunities as this might be the strength of OK MSU. While Elves excel at ouflanking you might need to storm through the lines first to be in position to combine charges later.

Ironblaster - great tool but I would keep it close to your main line to provide chariot charge option. Leaving it behind means you simply have one less regiment in the battle line. And as it is isolated it will suffer. Shooting is important but think more than that.

Stonehorn - very curious about this beast as there are a few other regiments that can be targeted. It may be used to advantage and to distract the enemy with too many potential units to shoot at. It is very fast model and can be used as your spearhead. I like the harpoon but don't feel obliged to shoot it every single turn! it is there to be used sometimes but you need to make up your mind what is priority at particular situation.

Empire soon

Empire

I am told that Todd, Jimmy's opponent, is practicing with his Empire army for CanCon which means he brought things that are good under Swedish Comp. Btw, what is his score?

It is quite important for the game because Todd brought an army that will give him a chance to put up a good fight and does not get handicapped to much due to potential composition difference. (CanCon uses a modified battle score where the difference in composition is multiplied by 150 and that is deduced from the total earned by the player with a tougher army).

It might be the reason why Todd had so many MSU style regiments too. Ok, let's have a closer look at his choices:

Wizard Lord - Regular human level 4, not that well protected but at the same time well equipped to deal some damage. If he were alone I would say he is not as a big threat (although Chainlightning is always an issue and the Comet often causes trouble due to the fact it is hard to predict when it is going to drop) but with a helper and power stone he can dominate at least one magic phase where it really counts.

The approach to mitigate his influence should be to simply keep dice for one spell in particular to dispel. If you have more dice, then maybe two. Getting his unit would probably be the best way to destroy him but it will not be easy to break through as there are many units to slow down the advance.

Wizard - scroll caddy with a very useful ring. Probably due to proliferation of elven scouts of different kinds With the same lore to make sure Lord gets Comet and Chainlighting

BSB - a decent armor but he is there only to wave his flag and I expect him to lead from the rear, Skaven style. Nothing wrong with it of course. It is just to point out that Empire characters have some nice protection but are quite squishy anyway. If possible, I would try to kill him even if that generates smaller amount of wounds. The reason being the units lose re-rolls to break test but what is more, his special skill to grant 3d6 roll for it is also neglected.

Engineers - nice idea with putting them on horses and giving them decent armor. They are super useful and I am surprised we don't see more of them. Not only they make the artillery more reliable but can provide some protection too! Or at least act as a diverter and slow down potential war machine hunters. Very good targets for the Hunter and his Harpoon!

Hunter - hm, I presume it was supposed to be witch hunter? Another interesting character with some cool rules. Great to see him in the army, I am sure there will be some stories of his performance after CanCon Quite problematic though with Pit of Shades as Ogres don't like this spell at all.

Halberdiers - it used to be decent infantry and still can be although Empire players tend to field them in horde formation of 50 with warrior priest and nearby Hurricanum. That unit can actually do some damage. Here, they are less efficient on their own but with the help of Heavens magic they can be quite decent in combat. However, their main role will be to provide save haven for characters.

They might be steadfast for some time but will lose war of attrition if attacked by few units at the same time.

Spearmen - pure rank providers and possible smaller bunker either to run away of Halberdiers get in danger (or the other way around). However, if both units will get into combat with Demigryphs the enemy mght be in trouble. So as always, divide and conquer!

Knights - MSU knights are very useful. Here, they provide additional fortitude points, are not that easy to kill and can perform a lot of duties. War machine hunting, fast elements fighting, redirecting and if needs be, can be sacrificed for the greater good. The good news is they will be defeated by any of your units of charged, although regular ogres might have tough time getting through their armor.

Demigryphs - easily the most powerful regiment of the army, the only one that can pack a serious punch regardless of the fact who charged. But you still have tools for the job, as Ironguts and Mournfangs can go against them and grind them down provided there are 2-3 units of yours against them and at least one fights from the flank. Some cannon or harpoon shots can be very helpful as they can take off one beast per shot and that significantly reduces their potential in combat.

Cannons - priority target for ironblaster. Don't let them shoot at you first, use cover or other units to catch the cannonballs and once it is your turn, move to position and fire. Ideally, you could do it in a way that does not expose you to second cannon.

Pistoliers - can be extremely annoying as only fast cavalry can be. Nemesis of your cats so keep them safe. Fierbelly is your counter against them with his fire magic, breath weapon and long charge distance. Don't try to catch them with your cavalry unless you can re-direct against something else in the process and don't be too preoccupied with hunting them down at all costs. Some harpoon shots, if possible and lacking better targets, may get rid of them too as they will operate on their own (so Ld7 for panic test).

Luminarks - magic cannons, number 2 targets for the ironblaster. Also very good as chariots so watch for that. 6++ is nice bonus too. They are very good but I think they are mainly there as they add to the shooting without too much penalty.

In general it looks like you decided to test your MSU against another MSU force. It means you will need to look more for the one-on-one fights than combined charges. And you might use anti-MSU tactics meaning focusing on one flank and rolling it before the rest comes to the rescue. You have tools for the job but you need to be fast and decisive as his magic and shooting are his assets.

More to come!

Cheers!

The Empire force had a comp score of 15.6, and the Ogre army had a comp of 16.0, as per version 1.15 which just came out in december.  Actually looks like OK comps got toned down a bit; nice.

Thanks Nihm, I was interested in finding out what the comp score was purely for my own sake.

It seems you are packing the reports faster than I can add comments Better continue then and hopefully it will be of some use and/or interesting to read.

Deployment

I always start from that phase whenever I look at the report. I am convinced it is one of the most important, if not the most important phases of the game. Even if you have fast army, full of fliers and fast cavalry, you need to position your regiments well.

Before I continue I have two questions:

1. Who was choosing the sides?
2. What was the order of the deployment for both armies? (I am aware you might not recall that but I am asking in case you do)

Now, deployment is heavily influenced by the terrain, so let's discuss it. I assume you didn't play with mysterious terrain as nothing is mentioned about it during the deployment phase description. From the point of view of OK army their part of the battle field is not affecting movement (apart from possible DT tests in the forest). It means there is freedom of deployment for the Ogres and to en extend they can also use woods to provide soft cover from pistoliers.

At the same time they are deprived any particular cover, maybe with the exception of the hill on the right flank.

There are two buildings closer to the Empire deployment (how big they were?) and something that looks like impassable terrain. If that is the case then there are 3 channels that lead to Empire deployment zone and it means the humans might need to divide their forces or occupy some buildings. If they enter them it means they cannot charge. Using buildings in warhammer is quite important but in here Empire army might not be able to use them to the full advantage because many of the units are cavalry.

These 3 elements block line of sight too so it could be a good idea to see where the cannons are going to go before positioning Ironblaster. If you could wait with it until then you could use these pieces of terrain to hide your own war machine from the enemy fire. If not, it might be good idea to position it behind the hill anyway and move on it in your movement phase. I am actually wondering if the hill on the left flank was not similar in that regard and didn't offer a little bit of space to be hidden from the cannons.

If that was the case I would favor left flank. The reason for that is that you need to employ anti-MSU tactics yourself meaning reinforcing one side and refuse the other. Your units in general are better in one on one combat and you should use that to your advantage.

I will not hide the fact that I think you didn't deploy well. Even on the right flank you could move to be able to hit the enemy hard. Instead, you positioned fast units in the rear and blocked by infantry in the front. That resulted in the situation where pistoliers could comfortably vanguard forward without risking entering the zone where mournfangs or Stonehorn could charge them.

I understand you deployed sabertusks forward to be able to vanguard with the Hunter. However, vanguard does not always mean you need to move forward. I am afraid they are exposed despite being in the forests.

Your army is also spread too much, in particular Ironblaster is positioned very far away. It means you wanted to use it in its traditional way as a cannon instead as a chariot to support main battle line. The units don't seem to support each other. It basically looks like you gave up the initiative and was not even prepared to counter in the case Empire got first turn.

At the same time Empire deployment shows they want to protect the artillery, both mundane and magical, by creating the wall of troops in front of the cannons and Luminarks. 2 units of Knights and Demigryphs reinforced one flank while single unit of knights and pistoliers were dispatched to protect that flank and to delay some units that were too far from the rest of the army.

I would deploy your force differently. I would deploy Mournfangs and Stonehorn in the front line to threaten any regiment that would try to move forward with counter charge. I would use Ogres either as a second line or as a formation in the center, to protect the flank and move in echelon formation. It is because they might struggle in fighting against some units on their own but also because they could support each other. IG would be somewhere in the middle. Sabertusks in the second line to be ready to jump forward and be protected from pistoliers at the beginning. Ironblaster behind the hill and possibly to avoid one cannon when moving forward to shoot at another one and destroy it when it is your turn to shoot.

Ok, next I will continue with turn by turn comments

Cheers!

Hi SM, thanks for the reply as per usual.

Picking sides is a house rule at Todd and my place, we stick at whatever side we put our armies down.  Order of deployment I can't quite recollect however I know my Sabretusks went down and he matched all of them with his Knight units, then my Ogres went down and his fast cav matched those.  Warmachines and infantry were his later drops.

A very in depth analysis on deployment you've provided and it's given me lots to think about, additionally if I can take these and add them to the next game then hopefully I'll put up a better fight.

Look forward to the turn by turn when you have time however don't stress about it, by all accounts I've given most of the game away via deployment it would seem.

Hi Jimmy,

I am sorry for a delay. Hopefully I can still add something to this game despite the fact you have just posted another 2 great reports. As promised, turn by turn:

Turn 1

Todd won 1st turn which might have been lucky (who had +1 to roll off?) and immediately exploited some of the mistakes. Leaving IB in the open and Sabertusk exposed as well too close to MF were things that can be easily amended next time. What he didn't use is to move pistoliers more to the front of the cat so that MF would have to flee more towards the table edge. I presume he moved his fast cavalry so that they are not in the arc of sight of MF in case they didn't panic.

Did you consider chargin with Hunter against K2? In this way you had a good chance to tie them in combat and block the advance of the enemy. Your now lone sabertusk would have been used to block K1 if it was possible for them to flank charge the hunter.

It also looked to me that O3 were moved to be a bait so that MF and SH could counter charge. While good idea in general, it was also an obvious trap. I would move MF a little forward instead so that they would already put some pressure with O3 and SH ready to hit the flanks if Knights wanted to charge them. MF can easily take the charge and emerge victorious on their own.

O1 also moved too far from the characters and your battle line starts getting separated.

Turn 2

Now Todd had an advantage in magic phase but I was wondering what was your approach to dispelling. For example, was Windblast that dangerous? Or were you afraid of lore attribute? You stopped all the spells but a comet, that seems to be much more dangerous here. Do you think it would have been better to keep the dice to dispel that one spell instead? What does Luminark target?

That combined charge was very impressive but it looks like the long one. Do you remember the distance?

There was an interesting alternative and I am curious what do you think about it.

You could declare the charge of IG against K1. It looks like they had to hold, otherwise you would re-direct into his block with characters. If he held you would smash through them and overrun into the Spears behind. I would add O3 to that too.

Now where the very interesting idea has a chance to materialize. If Todd held with the Knights you move O3 so that they are on the left and IG on the right. You also charge DGK with the Hunter alone. When you break the knights O3 overrun into Spears while IG into DGK and since Hunter was charging too they have another round of combat. If it worked as it did then DGK would have been broken, while O3 had a chance to at least hold against Spears but possibly target fragile characters.

At the same time the lone cat would jump in to block DGK in case overrun were not successful.

On the other flank, O1 should have charged P1. They would flee through 2 units, possibly inflicting panic checks. If P1 held, add MF. At worst your cavalry would be in the forest but facing the enemy instead of giving up the flank without a chance to fight. Being in the forest also gives -1 to shooting.

The comet crashing down was unfortunate but there was nothing you could do about it.

One comment on reforming IG. It seems that you reformed in the same 3 wide formation. You could have done so with wider one and at an angle so that you could see both DGK and Spears.

Turn 3

I think it was a mistake to flee with MF. These were GW wielding knights so your rider and his mount would hit first. You had a chance to fight against them but I think you underestimated the humans.

Charging the Knights and overrunning into spears was great but unfortunately the characters have already bailed out.

Turn 4

Did you consider charging out with Tyrant? He could charge the Luminark or K3 from the flank. If they fled there was a chance he would be actually covered by the tower from the cannons.

I understand that at this stage it was hard to continue and no surprise you threw the towel even if there was an option for Tyrant charge. Todd had a chance to flee though and snipe you out with cannons.

Summary

It was tough game but despite mistakes in the deployment you had a chance to fight back. I hope I provided some food for thought and I always think there is something to learn from such games. As I tried to show each turn provided some opportunities.

A few more general remarks.

I think Firebelly was constantly facing wrong direction. With his long movement range he can pick the flanks of the units, create opportunities for two combats per phase etc. While it was nice to burn some humans I am not sure it was really needed for the combat against IG. In fact, sometimes it is better to leave a few of the enemy so they can hold your charge and smash them in your turn so you cannot be shot at.

I disagree about level 2. I run Loremaster for quite a long time and it simply means you need to pick 1-2 spells per phase to dispel. And dispel the most dangerous ones. If you cannot dispel them all, don't try to do so. If there are 2 deadly spells pick one (usually the less difficult to cast as it means you may have better chance to dispel). In fact, I actually finished 7th at Convic in 2013 season where I cascaded my loremaster 3 times in six games (twice first turn) and still managed to win the games. So I can tell you it is possible

Fortunately, this defeat didn't result in abandoning of the entire concept and as other games showed you took your lessons and applied them for much better results and that what really matters.

Once again, sorry for late reply!

SM

Hi SM

Apologies for the delay in replying to your excellent post.

Turn 1 - Yes Todd won first turn and I think I even had the +1 to go first.  On the solo charge I'm not sure about it, I don't see how the Hunter wouldn't have been cut down then shortly after by a selection of enemy units.

Whilst I agree that MFC can take a charge, unfortunately the damage they do on impact hits normally swings the combats into my favour so without them I'd fear they'd eventually crumple.

Turn 2 - Yes I was focusing on preserving the Firebelly.  From memory Comet was cast on a stupidly high number with minimal dice anyway.  Hind sight and all but yes I probably should have dispelled comet however it has a 50/50 chance of coming down and at that stage it was a risk I had to take.   Luminarks were targeting MFC I believe.

I think it was around 16" for the Ironguts, the +1 movement banner certainly came into play here as that made the charge practically.

On the alternative charge I can't believe I missed that one, could have changed the game right there.    The painful part for me is I sat back for a good 5 minutes and worked my best charges out, how embarrassing.

Turn 3 - Indeed I did.

Turn 4 - I can honestly say I wasn't that clear on solo charging rules until 2 games time really so it didn't cross my mind.

Summary - Certainly you've provided things to think about and seriously I question my ability not to be able to pick up on the same things you see in game, it gets increasingly frustrating not being able to see the obvious.