Challenge Monkey

So I went to a local tournament this weekend and while I absolutely found my list to have everything it needed to deal with what I ran into (mostly).  I was unable to break into top 3 because of a couple rolls in game 2 and my inability to kill a Vampire Lord in game 3.

I realized while I don't have too many problems with RnF elite/non-elite infantry/cavalry I did have one major weakness.  I have no one outside a champ who can deal with real combat machines.

The kit my Tyrant took was:  HA, Enchanted Shield, Giant Breaker, Greedy Fist, Sword of Striking, The Other Tricksters Shard.  So a 3+,6++ with 5 Str 7 attacks hitting anyone WS5 or lower on a 2.

He is great at killing RnF.  But so are regular Ogres.  But taking 4 wounds in one round of Combat by a Vampire Lord is not ideal.  He did roll about average I guess but my Tyrant cant take that punishment.  Neither can my BSB.

So my goal was to come up with a build that can tank a Vamp Lord long enough to be able to come out on top.  I came out with 4 builds, if you can think of another let me know.  If you see something wrong with my math let me know.  Here are the kits + math.

Kit 1-- Tricksters Helm, Talisman of Endurance, ToTs.

Kit 2-- Gut Maw, Talisman of Preservation

Kit 3-- Gut Maw, Talisman of Endurance, ToTs

Kit 4-- Glittering Scales, Talisman of Endurance, Mountain Eater, ToTs


******************* Kit 1 ** Kit 2 ** Kit 3  ** Kit 4
*******************         **         **         ** 
Hits                         **  4.44 ** 4.44 ** 4.44  ** 3.75
To Wound                 **  3.7  **  3.7  **  3.7   ** 2.49
RR To Wound            **  3.08 **        **          ** 
After Ward Save        **          **       **           **
Wounds taken            **  2.05 **1.85 **  2.46  ** 1.66

---------------------------Red Fury-------------------

Attacks                      **  2.05 **  1.85 **  2.46 ** 1.66
Hits                           **  1.81 **  1.62 **  2.17 ** 1.24
To Wound                  **  1.5   **  1.35 **   1.8   **  .83
RR To Wound             **  1      **         **           **
Ward Save                 **          **         **           **
Wound taken              **   .66  **   .67 **  1.19   **  .55
Total taken                 **  2.71 **  2.52 **  3.65 ** 2.21

-------------Wounds done / recovered----------

Hits                            **  2.5  **  2.5   **  2.5   **  2.5
To Wound                   **  2.08 **  2.08 **  2.08 **  2.08
Got through AS           **  1.38 **  1.38 **  1.38 **  1.38
Ward Save                   **   .69 **   .69 **     .69 **   .69
RR Ward                      **  1.03 **          **  1.03 **  1.03
Wounds Recovered        **         ** .69   **  1.03 **
Actual Taken                 **  2.71 **  1.83 **  2.62 **  2.21


Sorry for the horrible table but if my math is correct the most defensive build that I could think of with a GW is surprisingly was Kit 2.  Followed kits 4, 3 and 1 in that order.

Maybe we have found a use for Gut Maw?  My biggest issue with it now after seeing the math (which does not cover Terror Test BTW) is that I cant fit ToTs in without dropping to a 5++.

Thoughts??

I've thought about this a bit in the past and come to the conclusion that nothing we have can really tank a red fury blender lord. I've lost full health slaughtermasters and tyrants in one round to that monstrosity, you are better off feeding him sabretusks and avoiding the bus unless you can hit it on three sides and crumble the whole thing in one go.

That said, I think our best tanks are the fencer's blades/glittering scales lore of the maw slaughtermaster, or talisman of preservation tyrant. IMO the slaughtermaster is a better tank as he can heal himself, but he lacks offensive power. You could take potion of toughness with either if you are willing to give up the OTS, which is probably a good idea if you are building a pure tank. The unit can win the combat for you, the character needs to block the vampire from causing tons of wounds. Any damage you do back to him is just a bonus.

Against vamp lords its alpha strike for the win. Get the charge, ANNIHILATE the unit whilst feeding the vamp a champ and then watch him crumble away.

The only time this doesn't work is against vamps in units of 40-50 ghouls, or 60+ skellies or zombies. Against such numbers you can avoid and redirect as the unit is super slow, or thin them out THEN alpha strike them.

Remember, the Hellheart is your friend.

Also Poison, Sniper maneaters.  He's going to have a ward, of course, but you put enough shots into him, keep his unit slowly chewing through Sabretusks and hope for the best.

A Gutmagic Slaughtermaster with a 4+ ward and Fencer's Blades is the closest we can get to being able to tank any of the real combat monster lords.

Its a sad reality that Ogres really don't have very impressive combat characters. If Bignames were a separate point allowance that would be different. Then we could have a T6 Str6 Tyrant that you needed to reroll to wound, and he could still have a 4+ ward and a magic weapon.

I miss my appropriately costed Mawseeker/Tricksters Helm combo.

A slaughtermaster tank, does the LotGM make it or can you still have a tank slaughtermaster running a different lore?

You really really want the lore attribute.

Besides, the unit buffs are amazing to have. I swear by running a Lvl4 Maw and 1-2 heavens butchers.

My favorite SM tank-builds are Fencers Blades, glittering Scales, Greedy Fist, or if I'm not worried about ethereals then I go for Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Preservation, Great Weapon.  And I wouldn't worry too much about taking TOTS.  You kill VC characters with crumble, not in combat.

Question on your table, just what equipment are you assuming the CV lord has?  Your table shows him having 6 attacks vs the first three kits, but then has him with 7+ attacks vs kit 4?

*edit* ah, you're assuming quick-blood and the Ogre Blade.  nm.

Here's the numbers for my suggested combos, with the possibilities of Maw enhancements.  Quite telling.

Against 5 attacks, S7, quickblood
Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist.
2.75 hits
1.91 wounds
.76 wounds after Red Fury
2.67 total

Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist, +1 toughness
2.75 hits
1.51 wounds
.46 wounds after Red Fury
1.97 total

Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist, regen
2.75 hits
1.15 wounds
.23 wounds after Red Fury
1.38 total

Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist, regen, +1 Toughness
2.75 hits
.91 wounds
.18 wounds after Red Fury
1.1 total

Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Preservation
4.4 hits
1.5 wounds
.46 wounds from Red Fury
1.96 total

Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Preservation, +1 Toughness
4.4 hits
.96 wounds
.18 wounds from Red Fury
1.14 total

I've always wanted to try a tyrant with GW, TOTS, greedy fist and gut maw.

5 S8 attacks with re-roll wards would surely get you some wounds back in a challenge, and you still have a 6++ with the chance of destroying their magic weapon so reduce the damage in future rounds of the challenge. Might be worth a try.

Did not want to start a new thread but Ive been toying around with the following build:

Tyrant- Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, this leaves you with 40 points for other options (5++ and TOTS or Healing Potion and DBG.

Add to this 1 casting of either Iceshard or Curse of Ahnreheir and everything hits you on 6's

Throwing this out there but what about a beasts slaughtermaster with fencers, scales, talisman of endurance and potion of speed? Savage beasts/wildform/pelt would do well, anyone care to try the maths on it?