Gutstar Q&A

So i have been trying to stay away from the Gutstar when theory hammering out army lists but recently i have been slightly attracted to the idea but i have a few questons for running a gutstar in a 2400pt army list

1. Should the Gutstar use up our entire minimum core?

2. What formation is ideal? 3 or 4 wide?

3. Is there a perfect size for a gutstar including characters?

I ask these questions because
13 Ironguts with Full command and Standard of Discipline = 604pts

Now i could add three characters and go 4x4 or two and go 3x5

Let me hear your thoughts

I don't think there is one right answer to these questions, but in my experience:

1.  No.  Two combat blocks are better than one.  I suggest 9x Ogres (Musician, Standard Bearer, IF) to go with your Ironguts + Characters.

2.  Three wide.  The gutstar is powerful because attacks must be allocated to our characters (and maybe a champion).  Staying three wide can allow you to keep an unprotected character (like a runemaw bsb) in the second rank while still limiting your opponent's combat rez.

3.  For 2400 pts, I suggest 6x Ironguts (FC, Look-out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline).  Add a Level 4, Level 2 (or 1) and a BSB.

-Snark

In reference to snark's answers:
1.)  He's right, but the second block is variable, depending on how much "star-ness" you want.  9 is a fully combat-capable block on it's own.  If you want a flanker, then you can go with 6 bulls and still have a very successful unit.  Ogre darts (3-man Bull units) also work well with Gut-Stars.

2.)  Again, he hit the nail on the head.  The strength of the Gut-Star is not only in the ability to protect the unit, but in the ability to pick which characters come up to meet which attacks.  Even if it's not a challenge, you can move the more protected (or killy) characters into b2b with other enemy characters.

3.)  Way too small.  Even with 3 characters, 6 'guts will die in short order to shooting and magic (even normal magic, disregarding the super-killy spells).  I'd start with 8 'guts then add two or more combat-kitted characters.

I think there is some great advice in this thread but I will try to chip in as well;

1. I have personally not had much success with a gutstar containing less than 9 ironguts, similarly any more than this becomes annoying to maneuver. Since you are referring to 2400pt games in particular you could spend the rest of the core points on a smaller unit of bulls, or some gnoblars depending on what sort of list you are running. Investing all of your core points into your gutstar is something I would agree with up to 2000pt games, past that having more units on the board to get your gutstar into position becomes more valuable.

2. I would copy what Snark said, you could potentially go 4-wide if you have 3 characters and a champion (so they can still soak up the damage) however you would be losing rank bonus as well as strength bonus from impact hits, in addition to an added difficulty in maneuvering the unit.

3. Like I mentioned in the beginning, I have always gone with 9 ironguts, which I then support with 3 characters. The characters can absolutely change depending on your play style however.

In a competitive environment I would go with one big ironguts unit as core. I have played very often 2 core unit like 8 IG + 8 Bulls but I've changed my mind about this because 2 core Units in 2400 takes more than the 25% cap and obviously our best choices are in the special or rare category. The problem is also that bulls have only a small Impact vs elite Units. In my opinion, the only way to play them as a big unit in a competitive environment would be: crown of command on a character inside and 12+ unit size in order to survive long enough to bring some support. The unit of 3 is also not bad. They're very mobile and can deal with fast cav or similar opponents.

So actually my favorite base is 9 Ironguts in ETC because of the 450 pts / unit Limit + 3 ogres + some gnoblars. If it was not the case i would go with 13 IG.

I totally agree with "this.is.gutstar" about the IG unit with less than 9 models in it. I also often go 3 wide in order to protect my character / unit (if the character go forward).

Echoing what's been said - I feel 8-9 is the right size for a gutstar with 2-3 characters. Anything larger screams 'redirect, shoot, or delete me' to a savvy opponent because odds are good you won't have many points left over for other support.

However, that stubborn (crown of command) character wall (tough 5 gets you a long way, a ward save of any kind helps) can fight off some impressive stuff. It also can feast of light flanking units that forget ironguts still have 3 attacks each and stomps to the side.


A gutstar works best when it is the nastiest of several threats, if it is your only real threat you're gonna have a bad time

It's worth noting that Snark runs his 6-strong Ironguts very successfully (and they comp well under swedish!) and always places well at GTs. I prefer a larger unit as well, and I'm not so keen on firebellies, but clearly it's working for him.

I actually tend to build my gutstar out of ogre bulls. The characters add all the killing power you need. They're much cheaper and I'd rather run ironguts on their own where their high-strength attacks aren't being displaced by characters. The main reason to run guts in your gutstar is for that magic banner slot for the +1Ld banner. Which, if you're not running a Tyrant, means you really have to take guts. But that begs the question: why aren't you running a Tyrant?

Another advantage of the Tyrant is to be able to change which unit your characters are in. Snark and I both like this tactic and it can really throw the enemy for a loop when suddenly your characters move into a unit 12" away and now this unit is your deathstar! This means running more than one primary unit. I will often run two units of 9 bulls or a unit of 9 and a unit of 9 guts.

This means running more than one primary unit. I will often run two units of 9 bulls or a unit of 9 and a unit of 9 guts.

This is my favorite build for Core, but that is at 2500+ points.  When looking at 2400, I tend to drop a few Ironguts to keep closer to min Core.  Would I rather have an extra rank of 'Guts or a few extra Maneaters?

-Snark

I've changed my mind about this because 2 core Units in 2400 takes more than the 25% cap

2 units of 9x Bulls with full command and ironfists is 636 points, or exactly 11 points over 25% of 2.5k, and 36 points over 25% of 2.4k.

This is why I side with Snarkhunter and Gutlord; if you really want to star it up, go with bulls.  But that's a very old discussion that we've all had many times

A gutstar + a small unit of trappers fills the min core nicely, a slightly smaller gutstar + a unit of 3 bulls with a champ is another competitive (yet slightly cheesy) option.

Unless you are going all in on a unit stick with 3 wide.

The only units I go 4 wide on are units of 12 bulls which I like at least one of at high points.

I have only ever run a unit of Ironguts larger than 9 once.

At 2500, I usually have a unit of 9 Ironguts and a unit of 12 bulls as my core. Ironguts usually have the flaming banner although that depends.

I usually stick my BSB and SM in my Bulls and other characters in with the Guts. My logic is the bulls need a Str5 bully to back them up in case they need it.

an interesting note...

if you go with a 3 model wide unit, and you have, lets say two characters in the first row, and a champ, does this mean, the unit that you are fighting  can hit one of the two characters, and only the champ, as he is considered a specific model, that ussualy dies last...so no matter how much wounds are caused to the champ it can not be transfered to the rest of the unit rank and file models (similar like hitting characters)?

i think this is a serious combat resolution buff, and a big 3-model wide pro argument...

an interesting note...

if you go with a 3 model wide unit, and you have, lets say two characters in the first row, and a champ, does this mean, the unit that you are fighting  can hit one of the two characters, and only the champ, as he is considered a specific model, that ussualy dies last...so no matter how much wounds are caused to the champ it can not be transfered to the rest of the unit rank and file models (similar like hitting characters)?

i think this is a serious combat resolution buff, and a big 3-model wide pro argument...

This is correct.  In your example, attacks must be allocated against your 2 characters and champ, and excess wounds to any of these three models will not carry over to your rank-and-file.  Beware of enemy units with multiple initiative steps (white lions with a non-GW character, for example), as they can kill the champ on the first initiative step, then allocate attacks against the RnF who had to step up on their future initiative steps.

-Snark