Change in the Meta? Double Firebelly the way forward?

So having recently come back from from Grail Quest GT, where I feel I had a decent showing having gone 4-2 and coming in tied for 10th in battle points.  I felt that I needed a bit more punch for elves and avoidance lists.  Both games I had versus Wood Elves were massive defeats.  And while changing my magic casters and general might not be the only answer I feel its the smartest way forward.  Having the option for 3 Fireballs to fling at the elves' bunker would have been welcomed.

So I ask what peoples thoughts on this topic is, and how you have solved the msu/avoidance aspect of elves now that all 3 books have been redone.

It's also worth keeping ahold of Bonecruncher (or whatever our magic missile is called) if you roll it on your Slaughtermaster. It's a very competent spell for messing up MSU, especially for heavy armour troops.

I agree, that spell is great.  But its the only magic missle in our lore, its difficult to get on a lv 1 or 2.  And it wounds elves on 4's? ( cant remember what strength it is).  Where the fireball wounds on 3's, can be upgraded from 1 to 3d6 hits.

Lore of Beasts has 2 MM but only one is good against Elf bunkers, Lore of Heavens has a lot more MM but requires the butcher tax be paid.

I think tyrant/dual firebellies is an underrated setup. Lore of fire is actually pretty useful, especially against some armies we might struggle taking points off of, MSU elves or endless hordes of skaven/zombies/etc. You lose out on the L4 casting/dispel bonus, but you gain breath weapons and better leadership. You could always keep a maw slaughtermaster for buffs in later turns and use the firebellies as early game chaff clearing and hope to roll flaming sword and either piercing bolts or flame cage.

Well, Snarkhunter scored 2nd at GQ with a tyrant + 2 firebellies build. Clearly it was working for him. He also had a scroll and hellheart for magic defence.

Personally, I think we have enough anti-chaff options (leadbelchers, etc) and other than fireballs, the firebellies just don't provide anything when the inevitable combats come. Heavens is better IMO.

What's all this about having to choose between a Tyrant and a Slaughtermaster anyway?

Whether using the double Firebelly build or not, the Ruby Ring is a useful item to help with chaff units.
Also with Fire spells don't forget that unsaved wounds cause panic fear in cavalry units which is a nice bonus.

I think it is also match up dependent while Fire is good vs. Elves it isn't that good vs. Warriors of Chaos .

Also with Fire spells don't forget that unsaved wounds cause panic in cavalry units which is a nice bonus.

I was not aware of this.  Where can I find it in the rules?

-Snark

Also with Fire spells don't forget that unsaved wounds cause panic in cavalry units which is a nice bonus.

I was not aware of this.  Where can I find it in the rules?

-Snark

Models with flaming attacks cause fear in warbeasts. its kind of irrelevant with ogres though

Also with Fire spells don't forget that unsaved wounds cause panic in cavalry units which is a nice bonus.

I was not aware of this.  Where can I find it in the rules?

-Snark

Models with flaming attacks cause fear in warbeasts. its kind of irrelevant with ogres though

I don't think that's quite what Bob was saying though. Presumably causing fear is just a standard fear check in CC. If flaming attacks can trigger panic tests at range then that's extra useful. Could anyone point to it in the rule book?

In the flaming attacks blurb is just states that flaming attacks cause fear in cavalry, war beasts, etc. I do not think they are panic-causing.

Ye sorry I was wrong about Panic tests in cavalry it is simply Fear tests which doesn't really help us much. I was getting mixed up with Burning Head.

Okies just wondering what list you took Snark?

Tyrant
2x Firebelly 1 with Hellheart, 1 with Dispel scroll, Ruby Ring?

My list was designed with the tournament comp in mind.  Grail Quest used a banded Swedish comp (10-16) with up to 350 pts allowed to be spent on up to 2 choices from the SoM/Monstrous Arcana books (no duplicates, some monsters excluded - like the K'daii destroyer, Magma dragon, etc).  I expected to see lots of war machines, lots of monsters, and lots of elves.

Tyrant (General, HA, Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, Greedy Fist, Other Trickster's Shard, Giantbreaker)
Bruiser (BSB, GW, Talisman of Preservation)
Firebelly (Level 2, Lore of Fire, Hellheart)
Firebelly (Level 2, Lore of Fire, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin)
6x Ironguts (FC, Banner of Swiftness)
9x Ogres (FC, IF)
6x Leadbelchers (Bellower)
6x Maneaters (FC, Poison, Swiftstride, Dragonhide banner, 3x AHW, 2x GW)
Sabretusk
Sabretusk
7x Trolls (from SoM)
Total = 2500 pts
Swedish Comp = 14.0

I won game 1 vs Wood Elves (my opponent ended up with 2nd most Battle Points and Best in Race - Wood Elves, defeating 6 other wood elf players - yeah there were a lot of elves).

I lost game 2 vs Gutlord Inquisitor's Ogres (he ended up 3rd Overall).

I won game 3 vs a dwarf gunline (my opponent won Best in Race - Dwarves, defeating 5 other dwarf players - yeah, there were a lot of gunlines).

I won game 4 vs DoC (my opponent brought a bloodthirster, a skull cannon, 2 beasts of nurgle, a horde of bloodletters, some fleshounds, and some pink horrors).

I won game 5 vs OnceBitten360's Bretts (he placed 9th in Battle Points, 5th Overall, and Best in Race - Brettonia)

I won game 6 vs Phazeal's Slaaneshi DoC (his list had 4 monsters in it, he won Best in Race - Demons).

Out of 67 players, I finished 2nd Overall and Best in Race - Ogres.  I had a great time playing 6 very fun games against 6 very skilled opponents.  It was a really great weekend.

The fireball spam neutered both units of wildriders in game 1, mostly failed to cast in game 2, killed an organ gun in game 3 so that I could advance my army, softened up the beasts in game 4, killed the level 4 outside the unit in game 5, and killed a level 2 herald in game 6.  Throughout all the games, I felt like it was pretty powerful.  I think it was the most important part of my battle plan in games 1, 3, and 5.

The hellheart hit all targets in game 1, hit all targets in game 2, did nothing in game 3 (dwarves), hit all targets in game 4, forced my opponent to move his level 4 outside a unit in game 5 (where she died by fireball), and ended a magic phase resulting in the death of the Keeper of Secrets in game 6.  As always, the hellheart delivered great results (it helps if you are willing to march your firebelly out of the unit as chaff - so you only need a 2+ or 3+ for it to hit).  It was greatly beneficial in 4 out of my 6 games (doing very little in games 2 and 3).

I mention these results because the two major things that made my list different than the other 7 ogres (yeah - there were a lot of ogres there) were that I took a Tyrant + 2 Firebellies instead of a SM + Butcher, and that I brought the hellheart instead of an ironblaster.  I think in both cases, it was worth it.

-Snark

how did you position your characters within your units?

how did you position your characters within your units?

It varied from game to game, but typically I had 3 characters deployed in the IG and 1 character deployed in the Ogres or the Trolls (per the tournament rules, you could deploy characters with a unit from the monstrous exception, although not allowed in SoM).  I had to be careful to keep something between the BSB and Tyrant, so that the OTS wouldn't hurt me.  I also usually deployed the Hellheart Firebelly with the plan that he would be leaving the unit on turn 2/3.

Usually it was Tyrant + Scrollbelly + BSB in the IG and Hellbelly with either the Ogres or the Trolls.  Another set up I used was Tyrant + both -bellies in the IG with the BSB in the Ogres or the Trolls.  Really the placement of characters is a great way to adjust with regards to your opponent's deployment.  For example:  Deploy the Hellbelly near the enemy wizard (and preferably in the IG with move 7).  If you need to crack armor, then deploy the BSB with the bulls.  Etc.

I think I moved characters from one unit to another in almost every game (whether for positional advantage or to deal with attrition of RnF from shooting).

-Snark

thx

do those characters go in the second rank when all three are in the IG unit?

Yes, and then I made way into the front rank in combat (before impact hits) as desired.

-Snark

Yes, and then I made way into the front rank in combat (before impact hits) as desired.

-Snark

Snark, please advise?
You can make a charge, then before impact hits are calculated, you can make use of the 'make way' rule, for what ends?
Ty in advance
Doc

Puts your characters up front to use their higher strength, or flaming impact hits.  Plinks off regeneration in time for your lads to mulch.

Puts your characters up front to use their higher strength, or flaming impact hits.  Plinks off regeneration in time for your lads to mulch.

Exactly, you get higher Str impact hits and hits have to be allocated either champ (for a max of 3 wound), Tyrant who is T5 with decent kit or most often another caster say butcher or firebelly.  Meanwhile your unit is attacking from the second rank with impunity.

Ta

Double Firebelly + Tyrant is what I ran when the new book first hit and it has never let me down, really.  Putting one on a carpet has also done wonders to my initial build.  Having said that, Gutlord Inquisitor is correct when he says that heavens it the superior option, but you need to construct around its use.  That means either a serious maneater unit or a lot of leadies.  That is another topic, but I can say from personal experience that it works just fine against avoidance lists.

What the firebellies are best at is adding some punch to second round combats in the bread and butter units.  That and Flaming Sword.  Being able to punch a couple more wounds with a breath weapon to keep the win in the second round is a major deal if you are taking a more MMU approach and have counter charges set up in the wings. 

The flyerbelly, however, is the most direct threat to elven shooting out there.  Fly in, dump template on Wild Rider unit, and move on to archers.  At T5, he can shirk off a lot of the shooting (especially if he has pals to get LOS rolls from) and make it in to drop other chaff.  Also, simply having a flyer tucked behind the initial charger to punish people who flee is a huge deal.  Sister Star is gonna flee from the gutstar?  Ok, now the flyerbelly charges and you run the rest of the way off of the table.  If your meta is flush with woodies who like the poison arrows, then a carpet butcher might be more helpful, however.