Fighting Karl Franz Ascendant

Had a 2000 point game against Empire a few days ago. Brought pretty standard list: Lv 4 Slaughtermaster, BSB, 11 ogres w add hw, 6 ironguts, 6 leadbelchers, stonehorn and thundertusk. My opponent brought Karl Franz Ascendant though, and he was able to kill my stonehorn turn 1 (i went second and had to charge him), a series of bad leadership tests resulted in by midway through turn two my army only having 6 leadbelchers left.

While my army definitely would have done better without failing a bunch of ld tests, and if I had brought 2 ironblasters, I dont see how ogres would be able to beat KFA with anything other than amazing luck. 10 WS 7, I7 auto wounding attacks that do d3+1 multiple wounds seems like a perfect ogre slaughterer.

Do any of you guys have any ideas on taking him down?

That was pretty unfortunate in the of tests.

Beating KFA is like facing Archaon or any other uber character though and poses a different tactical challenge to a normal game. Target denial is impossible as he can fly. So you gave yo sacrifice whatever he chooses to attack and demolish everything else your opponent has on the field (not very much) in the meantime, effectively winning you the game. If the game continues you should have enough left to bring him down!

Fighting KFA is a strange game for Ogres, the only way to win is not to play...

Until we get Greasus Goldtooth carrying a brace of cannon of the Sky Titans riding on a Chariot pulled by two stonehorns we're pretty much just boned if he shows up.

All you have to do is say "no special characters allowed."

Otherwise, tie him up with a gnoblar bus (in the unlikely event you have one), or concentrate fire with the ironblasters and lots of leadbelchers.  He's a 3+/4++ (2++ vs magic), and he's only T5, so leadbelchers can push wounds through semi-well.

I think as many ironblasters and poison maneaters as you can are your only hope. You have to hit him with ranged shooting nothing can touch him in combat. Maybe a big big unit of Ironguts are able to put a few wounds on. Just remember he dishes out about 18 wounds a round in combat. Sacrificing units with double flees to get more shots on him might be necessary.

With the new rules not being in balance yet (as only a subset of armies are included currently) I would try to update eg the stonehorn with hunter into the same combined profile. That would make it somewhat more fun and balanced IF both players fancy that  : )
Ogres dont have a lot of mounted options sadly for that. Normally I dont like to invent new mounts but try on a tyrant on the stonehorn with the combined profile : ) (using a lvl4 might be overly powerful)

Even before endtimes bringing KF in 2k was dumb... the new rules are not helping unless both players agree before even making lists.

Cannons and cannons and umm.... honestly I'm not sure what else. His saves and toughness are good but really it's just stopping him from getting to a unit, since he could kill like 6 Ogres a turn, more or less...

At least he's WS6 still, so any surviving Ironguts get to hit on 4's.

No, he's WS7 now.  we hit on 5s...

So, bring Yhettees so you hit on 4s... while they live, assuming you didn't fail a terror check somewhere...

So, bring Yhettees so you hit on 4s... while they live, assuming you didn't fail a terror check somewhere...

A terror check with 3 dices as far as I've heard

So, bring Yhettees so you hit on 4s... while they live, assuming you didn't fail a terror check somewhere...

Heh, he kills 6 yhettees a round before you swing so hope you brought plenty! 6 yhettees attacking back average about 1.5 wounds/turn.

Shooting remains the best way to get him.

The issue with just shooting him is as a big ass flying fella hes into combat turn two and should be in them for most of the time, restricting the shooting that can be done to him. And with ogres we're gonna be marching up to do damage to at least the non Karl Franz units, making it easier for him to get into and be in combat.

My vote goes to Cannon the crap out of him, should he make it to combat put a Thundertusk near him to give him ASF so he swings at the same time as IG's and hammer the crap out of him as he hammers the crap out of you. At least it levels the playing field a little. Could be a viable option if your Thundertusk isn't blown to pieces by Empire Cannons first 

Also... TROLLGUTS!!!

The issue with just shooting him is as a big ass flying fella hes into combat turn two and should be in them for most of the time, restricting the shooting that can be done to him. And with ogres we're gonna be marching up to do damage to at least the non Karl Franz units, making it easier for him to get into and be in combat.

Yes and no.  Depending on the size of the unit, there's a great chance that he's broken your steadfast, killed, and run down the unit.  Honestly, I don't see him remaining locked in combat unless you run those nice, big, eggs-in-one-basket death stars.

The answer here is gnoblars.  Just nothing but gnoblars.

He can kill as many as he wants.  They will be steadfast forever.  Also, multiple wounds does nothing.

The trick is getting him to actually attack the gnoblar unit.

Plus he might fail a dangerous terrain test! lol   

Kind regards Zolas.

Bragg the Gutsman hears your pleas, and chuckles at this new menace. 

Time for a challenge.  Buff him, and pray.

Was just thinkin of running Bragg and TT as a devastating duo..... Sounds pretty good to me!

Sadly, all that would do is remove KF's reroll to hit

He doesn't have Always Strikes First, so he would indeed strike last, giving Bragg one single turn of desperate hope....

So all we need the empire player to do is charge Bragg's unit unsupported by anyone else to take the challenge (or allow KF to be charged.) Then, assuming he doesn't kill the TT with shooting or other charges, you need to hit with Bragg, roll a 6 to wound and have him fail a 4+.

It's a million to one shot but it might just work...

Bragg with either a TT or a Dragonhide banner breath weapon is probably the best close combat hope.  Support him with the OTS on an adjacent character.

-Snark

The answer here is gnoblars.  Just nothing but gnoblars.

He can kill as many as he wants.  They will be steadfast forever.  Also, multiple wounds does nothing.

The trick is getting him to actually attack the gnoblar unit.

Run multiple 20-packs, and position them around each other, so that if he overruns, he simply slams into another 20-pack (Give 'em 20, so that they stay steadfast for at least one round of combat, maybe... lol).

Honestly, I just say, don't play against players using End Times lists until we get one of our own. They're so imbalanced that it's not fun to play against them. I keep hearing people say that they're fun and cool, but they're the ones with Undead or Elves lol...

End Times lists are fun, but only against another End Times list. Tyrion stands a more likely chance of killing him, but I digress.j

I do not know whether you have access to the Khaine book, but Magic has changed - almost to a storm of magic 2.0. All mages are now Loremasters and have access to the whole Lore. 4d6 are rolled for winds of Magic, with your opponent taking the highest two dice for the dispel pool. You can cast any spell with a casting value of under 15 as many times as possible (with a few caveats) and there is no broken concentration any more. Whilst it may not help much in close combat, it could certainly make units more durable, or perhaps make AKF easier to kill. Some of the ET signature spells are great and cannot be dispelled when cast (available to any lv3 and above).. There are a few more rules to go with this but if you are playing against any ET list I think you should play End Times rules to try to even it up a bit. Obviously there is also the good advice above as well.

Generally, End Times stuff is fun as long as you avoid the obviously broken stuff, like Nagash, Throgg with Blackened Plate Minos, and Karl Ascended, and so on.

The magic's a bit naff, though. I'm really not keen on it, since it's a bit messy in comparison to the current system and doesn't really change anything for the better.