Nagash and the End Times - a new direction for GW

As the title of this thread says - it is fairly clear to even those who pay no attention to the business side of things for GW, that there is a definite change in the things are being done. The most notable for all of us hopefully excited gamers is the beginning of this spate of releases for WFB which involve not only lots of exciting new rules and models, but for the first time in years (decades even!) a progression of the Warhammer timeline. Characters have been killed off, characters are missing and finally, finally - things appear to be happening.

The Nagash book is the first of many in a line that will touch on every race and develop the story. Not only is this in my opinion a brilliant sales technique as gamers will now buy each book that comes out to follow the progression of their race but also means games will have an added narrative. One of my favourite times playing Warhammer was during the Storm of Chaos campaign as you felt that every game you played could actually make a difference to the fluff world you played in. Genius.

The most exciting thing for me are any potential releases for Warriors of Chaos and of course our beloved Ogres. I'm actually hugely intrigued to see which way we fight. We have gathered for war...but with whom? Chaos Dwarfs? Orcs? The Empire? Undead creatures around us? The Ruinous Powers? Skaven or Dwarfs under our feet? Which way will our hand be swayed. Exciting times!

What are your thoughts on the release?

I think this direction could be interesting as it happens. If you ignore the whole "it's just a way for GW to make more money..." argument (for which I try and decline to get embroiled in), then this could be a very interesting time for fantasy players.

For me personally, I would love to see a return of the Chaos Dwarfs. The fluff for them is not only great but the concept of them and their fall from grace has endless possibilities that could be expanded. There is a market out there for their return and they would make for a very interesting twist on the standard Dwarf army. Not only that, but they add an extra dimension to the Chaos gods; with their own Chaos deity in Hashut. They would also align well with Ogres which would be another great bonus to their return. They already exist within current Ogre fluff with the trading of cannons for the Ogre massive.

Moving the time-line on would also be a great idea, and as you have already suggested there were times when fantasy had more opportunity for expanding on linked games that really added depth to campaigns and felt as if your games were actually part of an expanding world.

My hope would be that Ogres are not aligned with the Empire or Bretonians as it's always nice to be on side of the bad guys! I would be quite happy if the armies of the mountains were linked, such as O&G, Beastmen and OK but this could also include Chaos Dwarfs are from a regional point of view they all seem to fit quite well.

I am eager to see what GW come up with and seriously hope that they do a decent job of expanding the Warhammer world and timeline giving the opportunity for some reinvigoration of the fantasy game.

G_H

I definitely agree that moving the timeline forward would be very interesting.  Kill off some characters, bring new ones in, and change how old characters work.  I can see it working like Magic planeswalkers: Each one you summon is from a different part of their life (which is why there are so many Jace variations).

I would like to see a couple of things come out of this (all lore based, for the most part):

The mortal armies of chaos (WoC and dark elves especially) should be powerful, sure, but not overwhelmingly powerful.  When I read the old dark elves book, the main thing I got out of it was "the author of this book has no idea how to handle a long lived race".  Given the amount of dark elves that exist, how do you expect me to believe that they maintained a naval siege on Ulthuan for 500 years?  How are they getting supplies?  How are they replenishing their manpower?  Given that Ulthuan can draw on the resources of an entire island continent, how did the dark elves manage to threaten them consistently for 500 years?

I had the same issue when I read the WoC fluff: this is a warrior culture from a frozen, blasted wasteland.  They have a constant negative population growth due to constantly fighting among themselves and randomly mutating into abominations.  Based on how I understood it, chaos armor is bonded to the warrior and they can never take it off.  They then dedicate the rest of their (short) lives to fighting for their respective patron.  If you can't remove the armor, then either they can't procreate, or they don't have any sort of protective groin armor and can be taken out by a swift kick to the nads.  Anyway, with the constant in-fighting and lack of resources, how do they pose enough of a threat to the empire to even be mentioned?  It should be like having a bunch of drugged up hobos assaulting a castle.  Yes they fight longer since the drugs deaden their senses, but something the size of the Empire should be able to clean them up pretty easily.

I would love to see new army books that adjust for the resources they have.  It is the end times.  The WoC has been fighting constantly.  DoC should be gaining strength, but WoC should be waning, and more reliant on daemonic help than ever before.  Crunch wise, this would mean a point increase for standard warriors: they are harder to find.  It would also make marauders more attractive.

Dark elves should still be at about the same strength, though I would imagine that they are waning too, since it is hard to worship a god of murder without taking a population hit.

The undead armies should be strengthened (which seems to be the case with Nagash).  They are getting a massive number of "new recruits" thanks to all the fighting, so they always have more manpower.
 
High and wood elves should be waning, and more reliant on beasts to help fill the ranks (and would give wood elves more incentive to bring things like dryads, etc.)

Lizards should be about the same.  They have been facing the end times since the polar gates first exploded, so I don't see how this changes anything.  As a completely unrelated note, though: I would love for them to get a big flying monster like a coatl. 

Ogres should be about the same, if not stronger.  Their part of the world is pretty well untouched.  They tend to be the aggressors, rather than defenders, so they should be able to maintain enough of a population that they remain to be a threat.  It would be cool if they had managed to scrape together some new fighting tools: they are dumb, but resourceful.

Skaven should be stronger at this point:  despite their propensity to blow themselves up, they are REALLY good at explosive population growth.  Maybe a new book?  Come on, you know you want to.....

The empire should be waning due to constant incursions, but still have a technological edge on the other groups.

I don't know much about orcs, brettonians, beastmen, or dwarfs, so who knows on them.


Keep in mind, this is not me saying that certain groups should be more or less powerful.  I'm just saying that if they are moving the timeline forward, it would be really interesting to alter how armies work based on how they would be moving forward.  Warriors should be more dependent on daemonic gifts to make up for their decreased population.  Wood elves should be more reliant on tree spirits to supplement their forces.  High elves should misplace their Banner of the World Dragon, etc.

Well, the army book writers are more interested in scale and big silly wars than creating a convincing account of an entire race.

For example, Chaos Warriors are primarily a very small elite force from a vast northern wilderness. There's hundreds of tribes up there that take care of all the survival - it's just that certain members advance to the stage of Chaos Warrior, wherein their old life becomes redundant and they exist only for conquest. Marauders are exactly that - marauders who pillage lands for loot and return home and exist happily, like Vikings. Scylla Anfingrimm's story details his tribe alongside him, who seem to exist happily in a nomadic form, and have him as a sort of 'trained' beast.
When they actually go forth for conquest and destruction, they're already practised, skilled warriors and often lacking in numbers (hence the need to supplement themselves with monsters), and it's not that often they go south in tremendous numbers. Plus, the Empire's bloody terrible at infighting too, and permanently beset by Beastmen.

As for Dark Elves and a 500 year siege, it's that annoying thing where they probably fought a lot of bloodless battles, with retreating and so on. Those big black Arks definitely help them with storage and whatnot, and as Elves they tend to be 'perfect' in many things, such as resource acquisition and utilisation.

What I really don't understand though is how any one force gets big enough to do anything given that every single faction can and happily will war amongst itself? Beastmen surround the Empire and pose a massive threat, and Orcs and Goblins are also involved - and they fight one another too. Wood Elves seem to have no sense of diplomacy and go to war against anything that looks at them funny. High Elves and Dark Elves fight each other all the time, but Dark Elves have to put up with Lizardmen and technically Cathay too. Bretts and Empire have internal struggles on top of all this. Dwarves keep getting into scrapes with Skaven and Greenskins and Ogres, and Ogres and Skaven are pretty much all over doing their own schemes. Chaos Dwarves have always been dismally low in number and any slaving excursions prove risky (and the Dwarves and Black Orcs take any chance they can to avenge their ancestors). Oh, and Daemons are, well, Daemons.

Actually, this campaign kind of makes sense - Tomb Kings and Vamps never really suffer losses as they just get back up and trudge home, and the Vamps in particular actually have some reasonable concept of long term goal. Huh, no wonder Nagash prefers the Undead!


I think for allies though, Ogres will be siding with the Empire. We're a mercenary lot, but the Undead hold no promise for us with the fall of Settra and though many of our number already ally with the Gods of Chaos, we are ultimately a civilisation, and therefore in that alone are opposed to said Gods. Greasus wouldn't be that short sighted.



P.S. Gnoblar Herder, I trust you've already seen Forgeworld's Chaos Dwarf list? The Tamurkhan book details their history and background rather nicely (though they don't play well with others - they don't just summon Daemons, they then enslave them!). Thing is, I think GW doesn't want to invest in another army if they're currently struggling...

I think for allies though, Ogres will be siding with the Empire. We're a mercenary lot, but the Undead hold no promise for us with the fall of Settra and though many of our number already ally with the Gods of Chaos, we are ultimately a civilisation, and therefore in that alone are opposed to said Gods. Greasus wouldn't be that short sighted.

I could see that.  However, due to the fact that ogres are, for the most part, tribally self contained, I think you could have a solid case for ogres joining every faction.  This tribe is more aligned with Chaos, that tribe likes mummys, this other tribe thinks rats are cute, etc.

I think that ogres will have free reign on alliances.

Ogres being neutral is consistent, but screw consistency, new fluff! I would not object to the Ogre Kingdoms ending up with a new overtyrant who beats the overall group into picking a side.

Ogres being neutral is consistent, but screw consistency, new fluff! I would not object to the Ogre Kingdoms ending up with a new overtyrant who beats the overall group into picking a side.

Didn't we just have a winner in the arena?

I think Ogres will probably be fighting for at least 2 sides. I can see them siding with Chaos or the good guys. I highly doubt they would side with the Undead though as that would mean no more meat in the end.

Personally, I am really excited about this, it's going to shake things up. It's got me really motivated to finish building my army and get some more paint on it as well.

Bring it on I say!!!

I think this direction could be interesting as it happens. If you ignore the whole "it's just a way for GW to make more money..." argument (for which I try and decline to get embroiled in), then this could be a very interesting time for fantasy players.

To be fair to GW and every other game-creator out there, *everything* done is done as a way to make money.  This is neither entirely bad nor good, its just the reality of business (argument avoided).  The hope is that the company can make money off what its consumer base desires.

I am excited about The End Times, and hope that the money generated will lead GW to pay better attention to Fantasy.  I personally am not sure I want to invest nearly $200 on a book and a small toy (opinions of the small toy ignored for the moment)...but I am excited to play against it.  My only hope is that they don't over complicate the system the way they did to 40K, and part of the problem is over-escalation (dis-proportionment of stuff) and over complexity.  Its a good system now.  Yeah, the story line isn't air-tight, but its sustainable and enjoyable.

I love the discussion on this thread. Brilliant points raised here.

I actually believe the fluff to be (relatively) sensible, especially considering it is all based on RL actual events. It's not shocking that WoC have such a massive effect on the rest of the world despite being fewer in number (although that is not actually confirmed - the WoC lands in the North are much bigger than the land mass of the Empire. More importantly, nomads and marauders infighting for supremacy is essentially the start of human civilisation. We have murdered and killed one another until there should be no-one left but we multiply still. Finally - if you question the effectiveness of a marauding horde coming south you need only look at the success of the Vikings. They don't need the numbers to conquer and populate, only the strength to murder and massacre everyone they come across. Bolstered by Warriors who live only for that purpose - the fact they pose a threat to the untrained militia that serves most of The Empire shouldn't be a shocking one.

I can't comment on the Elves backstory as I'm not as familiar with it myself. Although the portrayal of the Dark Elves in the Archaon Everchosen novel definitely leads me to believe that both sides of that battle would be intellilgent/cunning enough to minimise losses whilst maximising damage if that makes sense!

On another note - the sheer size of the Nagash model shocked me. I thought it was a smaller base than it is and so it will be an extremely imposing model to be setting up against. Personally, I have no interest in undead models from either race so definitely won't be purchasing him. However, Archaon has always been my favourite character so the fact that rumours state he will not be getting a new model seriously disappoints me. As the nemesis of Nagash, the two models should be able to be placed opposite one another on an equal footing. While I love the current Archaon model (undoubtedly why they won't release a new one!) One suitable grander would definitely make money leave my humble wallet...

Personally, I have no interest in undead models from either race so definitely won't be purchasing him.

I have to agree with this statement, though I have got the book on pre-order purely for the reason that I am really interested in seeing how this whole project (hopefully rejuvenation) of the Warhammer world will progress. I hope that the contents, mainly the fluff, are a good read and justify £50 of my hard earned cash, which is often in short supply!

Also agree that the discussion here is very interesting; loads of points that have made me think more about how this whole phase will pan-out and develop.

I am eager to get my hands on the book and see what it's contents have to offer. (Still hope they will consider reintroducing the Chaos Dwarves.  )

G_H

Incidentally, latest FW news suggests that the Nagash book contains enough fluff for a Chaos Dwarf army to become a part of the festivities....Hooooray! 

G_H

Incidentally, latest FW news suggests that the Nagash book contains enough fluff for a Chaos Dwarf army to become a part of the festivities....Hooooray! 

G_H

I just hope it'll inspire them to make a model of the hardest monster in all Fantasy, the K'daai Destroyer. If they're really stopping Warhammer Forge stuff for the time being, I want it to go out in a glorious, flaming bang.

^ did you see the green's/ proto for the thing they did start to make for the CD K'daai destroyer? It was truly terrible...if they decide to actually release that then i would much sooner build my own!

For me though, the very mention of "a Chaos Dwarf Army" in any mainstream GW book is a good sign. I was gutted when GW dropped Chaos Dwarves, at the time there seemed little logic to the decision, so the very idea that there could be a return would be an absolute gift to me.

G_H

I actually believe the fluff to be (relatively) sensible, especially considering it is all based on RL actual events. It's not shocking that WoC have such a massive effect on the rest of the world despite being fewer in number (although that is not actually confirmed - the WoC lands in the North are much bigger than the land mass of the Empire. More importantly, nomads and marauders infighting for supremacy is essentially the start of human civilisation. We have murdered and killed one another until there should be no-one left but we multiply still. Finally - if you question the effectiveness of a marauding horde coming south you need only look at the success of the Vikings. They don't need the numbers to conquer and populate, only the strength to murder and massacre everyone they come across. Bolstered by Warriors who live only for that purpose - the fact they pose a threat to the untrained militia that serves most of The Empire shouldn't be a shocking one.

You bring up some excellent points.  One point I would like to add to your points is that a large portion of their land has been converted into the Chaos Wastes.  If it is the end times, then the Chaos Wastes should have spread southward, taking up more and more of the habitable WoC land.  Since every bit of fluff written for anyone even remotely connected to the Forces of Order has been along the line of "we are trying, but we are losing" the impression is that there is not really a way to stop chaos, as it is fed by the dark impulses of all the mortal beings on the planet (and further, if you subscribe to my theory that WHFB and 40K occur concurrently, just one focuses on a wider scope than the other).

So, following that train of thought, I think my change still holds up: DoC is strengthing, WoC is waning.  The Chaos Wastes have spread far enough that all those villages have to move or get swallowed up.  Their lands have diminished, and while that causes an upswell in marauders (I really would like for them to be the primary core unit), it has the effect of decreasing the number of Warriors that can be fielded.

Again, the actual Warriors are super elite, blessed fighting dudes.  With the decrease in their lands and with the constant fighting, they should not be core units.  They should be special.  At the end times, it should be tough for them to pull together 18 super tough guys that have all been blessed by the same god to fight in the same unit.

LawGnome; whilst i fully understand where you are coming from, this arguement slightly negates the fact that life isn't quite as simple as one thing being more prevelant than another.

If we take the eaxmple of the Vikings; they were a bunch of badass guys who stormed other countries and laid waste to anything that got in their way. In this way small numbers of people could take over a larger peice of land. Did their numbers diminish? Well they did and they didn't. The factor that changes this is simple human nature.

If we apply this to the Warhammer world you could say that if WoC stormed Nuln (just as an example) by the time it looked like the city would fall there would be a few individuals who would have decided, from the point of self preservation, that they were actually WoC after all, and quickly change sides. This has happened the world over and would not be uncommon.

So apart from the Chaos Wastes being vast and the actual numbers innumerable, there would also be people who quickly decide to change sides and fight for the winning team. 

I doubt that WoC would diminish in number rather they would stay more evenly spread depending on the number of localities they had invaded and the number of people who had decided that "turning to the dark side" was a better option than feeding the tree's.

Just a thought.

G_H

LawGnome; whilst i fully understand where you are coming from, this arguement slightly negates the fact that life isn't quite as simple as one thing being more prevelant than another.

If we take the eaxmple of the Vikings; they were a bunch of badass guys who stormed other countries and laid waste to anything that got in their way. In this way small numbers of people could take over a larger peice of land. Did their numbers diminish? Well they did and they didn't. The factor that changes this is simple human nature.

If we apply this to the Warhammer world you could say that if WoC stormed Nuln (just as an example) by the time it looked like the city would fall there would be a few individuals who would have decided, from the point of self preservation, that they were actually WoC after all, and quickly change sides. This has happened the world over and would not be uncommon.

So apart from the Chaos Wastes being vast and the actual numbers innumerable, there would also be people who quickly decide to change sides and fight for the winning team. 

I doubt that WoC would diminish in number rather they would stay more evenly spread depending on the number of localities they had invaded and the number of people who had decided that "turning to the dark side" was a better option than feeding the tree's.

Just a thought.

G_H

Also excellent points.  All of those guys joining the winning side would end up being fielded as marauders, assuming they get to live at all.  The militia man that decides that he would rather defect and live is certainly not going to be drawing the attention and blessing of any of the gods.  Also, I'm pretty sure that they don't really take prisoners or converts, since a combatant for one side that decides to defect is going to be considered cowardly.

From my understanding of WoC (and feel free to correct me:  I've only read the book once), the guys that matter (the chosen, etc.) operate on a "might = right" philosophy.  Since these guys are ALSO the same guys that are actively trying to bring about the end times, I doubt that they are going to adjust their recruitment paradigms just because of something silly like all of their land getting transformed into more of the Chaos Wastes.  This is, in fact, part of what they have been striving for: the increase of their gods influence across the world.

In my mind, if they were to start losing all of their land, they absolutely would push south and take more.  Depending on who is in charge of any particular warband, they may take on defectors to join their cause.  But I still think that the expansion of the Chaos Wastes would result in a depletion of their Warrior units.  They would not be gaining enough recruits that are worthy of drawing the blessings of the gods, so the elite units of Warriors wouldn't be as common (and thus pushed into the Special choice, crunch wise).

Of course, when the new material comes along, it could turn out that the expansion of the chaos wastes means that it is far easier for someone to draw the attention of the gods, and pretty much anyone can get one of their blessings.  I just think that this would be a misstep from a story perspective.  After all, you can't have ALL of the chaos forces winning.  In the end, the ones that benefit the most are the gods themselves.  Given that the gods are somewhat fickle, I can imagine that there are rather a lot of Chaos spawn at this point. 

I do agree with your point though.  So long as there are humans left on the planet, there will be people willing to fight on the side of Chaos.  So I will revise my opinion of general strength during the end times as this:  DoC will increase in strength, WoC will stay at roughly the same strength (though more reliant on daemonic aid).

Ok this expansion of the chaos wastes thing in no way lowers the numbers of warriors or marauders (a distinction that exists for game purposes btw - in the fluff that line is blurred - as is that of warrior to chosen. Maraduers acquire pieces of armour over time, and eventually gain prowess and acquire more armour. There is no standardised 'chaos armour' that is manufactured and makes you blessed. If I recall, the armour they possess becomes blessed and melds to their skin. It is the continuation of these blessings that moves these warriors along the path to being 'chosen' warriors and them champions or spawn).

The Chaos Wastes are considered uninhabitable yes, by the civilised lands. They are in no way uninhabitable by the forces of Chaos. They can't be measured and actually exist outside of sense. Yet unimaginable numbers of daemons, spawn and crucially human warrior forces battle it out there 24 hours an endless day. Again, the Archaon Everchosen novel explores this quite nicely.

So the expansion of the chaos powers in the north (not expansion of the 'wastes'  which is a region on a map rather than the powers) would in no way decrease numbers of tribesman or warriors able to survive. If anything, they would find themselves with more blessings, more favour from the gods and more daemon patrons with more powers to bestow gifts upon them.


BUT ON TOPIC!
Yes I'd love chaos dwarfs to be a part of it.

For us Ogres - a small sentence in WD mentioned our fate. "The Ogres, yes all of them, are marching to war". SO it looks like a mass exodus and rampage for us!!!

Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are different simply for the sake of the game. As BB says - in the books and fluff they are essentially all Warriors in various states of "blessing" and renown. The truly powerful ones (such as the ones in the units of Warriors) are essentially non-mortal and can and do exist in a space between worlds at times (much like the Daemons and gods they serve). And time in the wastes is always shifting... no way of knowing how many or how few warriors there are at a given time.

I think this is reflected well in the cost of the models and units in the book and their "elite" stat line.

Excited to be able to create the undead army of "my dreams" using things from both VC and TK to make a bad ass all skeleton army!! Not so exited about a lot of the models but it won't stop me from converting my own things to represent the new heroes and stuff!

Warriors are individually diverse though, to the extent that their origins are all over the place. Forsaken being core represents how many succumb to the wrong gifts, and Warriors don't actually come south that often - the infighting itself is pretty mental.

The Marauder population is also pretty potent - it's just that when they go to war, only some will go, whilst pretty much every Warrior will go. So when you see a list, you're only seeing a select few of the Marauder population (who're perfectly willing to return home after a good amount of rape and pillage), but a massive chunk of the Warrior lot.

Main thing is, Marauders aren't dumb. They do focus on survival, and tend to stay nearer the outskirts of the wastes, rather than closer to the messed up poles. And their territory extends all around the circumference of the warhammer world, touching on Cathay and Naggaroth, so they're not exactly too hemmed in.

Finally, it's important to remember that Warriors don't all suddenly turn into mindless killing machines upon reaching that state. Many are still in transitional stages, and will carry on their more human activities until the call of the Gods completely draws them in. Some Warriors can remove their armour too - no two sets are alike, and some are forged by the good old Chaos Dwarves themselves!

To get this thread slightly back on topic - who is picking up the book that changes WFB tomorrow? I have reserved my copy at my local store and will be picking it up at around 11. You can rest assured that I'll be reading that bad boy as soon as I can so expect updates.

Can't wait to find out where this book takes the timeline but I imagine it is not as far saw e expect and we'll have to wait for the next in October.

Whatever the outcome - £50 will be leaving my bank tomorrow when I haven't spent any money on the hobby in months so well done to GW...!

I have a copy on pre order so should be picking it up today. I am pretty excited about some new developments for fantasy. Interesting times (and not before time TBH!).

G_H

I have my copy! On the first few pages it does hint at the elves coming together to fight under one banner. Perhaps it is my lack of knowledge of their lore but:

"When the dragons fly as one, an ancient lie will at last be exposed,a. Revelation that will shake Ulthuan to the roots of its mountains. The mirror of light and dark will shatter, and Aenarion's heirs will fight for the legacy of Khaine amidst the ashes of the Phoenix."

Granted the image given is of a desperate battle between HE dragons  and DE corsair ships, but a hint at an ancient lie, leading to a battle uniting the two against a common enemy in daemons perhaps? Granted this is a leap of logic but...hey ho!

ALSO - the book looks incredible. Kudos to GW on this so far!

Sounds nice! Keep us posted m8!

we want more!

I have been reading constantly since I last posted and am on page 83 of the book. I want to share with you all what I have learned.

Firstly: this two book piece is MASSIVE. It truly is of a higher quality than even the imperial armour books and I've yet to come across a two page spread that has seemed just filler.
Secondly: there is an unbelievable amount of background info given over almost in novel format. Just like IA books you have an overarching storyline with added text boxes of small dialogues of interactions that happen separately or in-line with the story.
Thirdly: the book begins with a two page spread for every race with a current army book setting up their current status. That being BEFORE Nagash is risen. So that means chaos running rampant across the world basically.
4. Ogres!! We are no longer tied to the unforgiving (fat) Overtyrant! It specifically states that golgfag travels west, two full tribes travel north to join chaos (!) and the volcanoes start erupting. First the fire mouth and then...all of em. Yes, all of em. So mass exodus of the ogres, marching out like we haven't done since we first settled. And greases is ...angry!
5. The lines of alliance are blurred al over the place. Perhaps taking direction from writers such as George R. R. Martin the races aren't just 2D anymore. There is much more space for single characters to influence things, break away and form a faction allied elsewhere. Kemmler allies with chaos (and is dead!), Imrik has rebelled against he Phoenix King as he didn't get to succeed the throne as Finubar has essentially disappeared. Not open rebellion but the 'we stand alone' in caledor. And so forth - Leoncoeur is 'possibly' dead in brettonnia slain by his bastard son (now also dead). And Drycha for some reason helped the VC.

Other news - dark elves besieged by chaos and valkia to the extent that they have stopped attacking Ulthuan. Witch kind disappeared  and returned happy with blood on his hands (don't know why) and now is angry with current state of affairs. Expect valkia vs male kith here with a DE win.

Dwarfs in two minds as to whether to shut themselves in just to attacks from the south or help allies. Also talk of finding portals of valaya..

Volkmar the grim is hostage to mannfried with some other shockers morgiana le fey and tyrion's daughter Ariana (forgive spelling) and they're all going to die to revive Nagash it seems.

Beast men gather, orcs & goblins gather and wurrzag has realised he needs two champions not one. One for Gork and one for mork.

Settra is dead (properly) but we knew that.

4 greater daemons of chaos bow to Archaon and he sits in the wastes. Waiting. For the next book probably. But seriously any chaos hosts fighting now (valkia) are choosing to defy his orders. He knows his destiny and waits for it. Let them break of the century old battlements type stuff.

Ever queen from Ulthuan goes to Athel Loren (yes) alone (!!!) to beg the help of he wood elves to get her daughter back from mannfried. They agree eventually but say there will be a price. We leave her going down into the oak of ages (where wood elves lady is trying to recover but dying) and he assumption is that she would give her life to heal her and the forest, though that is may sumptuous rather than written in.

That's all I can remember for now!

Ok so much happens I can only counsel that you get the book. Although the alliance of the elven races seems highly likely at the moment as it is revealed that Teclis sacrificed Tyrion's daughter in order that Nagash might live (probably to weaken Chaos) and is in alliance with the Hag Queen Morathi (his mother) whom he claims to be manipulating toward some greater good. Surely this would be a new version of the earlier spell that chained the winds of magic to the poles....

Wow seriously considering buying this one now.

Thanks for the insights so far. It would be nice if you could keep us posted about any ogre involvement. An Angry Greasus is not something you want to miss out on 

Will do - I can't see here being much else added on he ogre front though, they seem to be laying down the basics to keep all races happy then including their involvement further in he books to come. If the next book really is Chaos I'd expect some ogre involvement based on what I've read so far.

For beast men fans- there appears to be a winged shaman named Malogar who is commanding the troops as it were...

Also -
Morgiana le Fey
Aliathra
 Are both so dead.

Volkmar the Grim - dead for he second time. This time...he kinda became Nagash. Seriously.

What kind of stuff is happening with the lizards?

I heard something about Mazdamundi making a proclamation, and would love to know what is happening there.

I am really interested in reading up on the warhammer fantasy stories so far. Could you guys give me some tips on what to read to get up to speed before I start reading the end times?

Owning a tomb kings army as well as my ogres, I'm really desperate to get hold of this book. All I need to do now is persuade the wife that £50 is an acceptable outlay....
Thanks for all the info, although all it's doing is making me want it even more! With 50% lords, my greasus model might be getting an outing more often!

LawGnome - the Lizards don't feature too heavily but in their opening entry it states the following:

Kroq-Gar is besieged and has requested the best fighting cohort from mazdamundi to defeat the old foe (shaven or chaos depending on your outlook) and he has already been sent 3 cohorts so they're really struggling. The two aids to mazdamundi are about to issue the order as he is asleep/dreaming when he wakes, tells them to wait. Then decrees that the old ones plan has failed, it is time to act and that it is time for an exodus!!!!!!!!



Evoluo - The book actually draws on pretty much every piece of fiction written for the universe from what I can tell, so read books about whatever races you find interesting. Anything to do with Nagash and the undead of both kinds may help here but arguably nothing is necessary. A bit of info on Dwarves, O&G and The Empire would make the whole thing make more sense too and if you know who the characters are when they're being killed off it certainly adds drama!




My only criticism of the book is that it features a number of what are essentially battle reports; just not based on battles actually played as a war hammer game but fluff battle reports as it were. This is not necessarily a criticism but there are quite a few so when read in quick succession they become a little tiring.

Other than that, so far it is a brilliant acquisition. I would say even that GW would normally price this a lot higher, with Nagash book 1 probably going for £45 and book 2 being a standard army book or expansion price of around £25.

Malagor's doing the leading of the Beastmen this time huh? Well, I suppose Kazrak is a less preachy leader. Mal's a special character in the book btw, just so ya know.


And all this sounds really impressive! Glad I ordered it now ^^

Thanks for the clarification on that psychihobo, my beast men lore isn't what it should be! I'm sure I'll brush up on it before the armies of chaos are united in the next end times book

LawGnome - the Lizards don't feature too heavily but in their opening entry it states the following:

Kroq-Gar is besieged and has requested the best fighting cohort from mazdamundi to defeat the old foe (shaven or chaos depending on your outlook) and he has already been sent 3 cohorts so they're really struggling. The two aids to mazdamundi are about to issue the order as he is asleep/dreaming when he wakes, tells them to wait. Then decrees that the old ones plan has failed, it is time to act and that it is time for an exodus!!!!!!!!

Ooo.... that is definitely shaking things up quite a bit for them.  That's actually really exciting.  Where they would go with their exodus?  I can't imagine they would want to take over any part of the old world.  Is there a South Pole gate that they might use to leave the planet?  Also, what are they going to do without their belief in the Great Plan?

Thanks for the update.  I really appreciate it.

Mazdamundi specifically states that the great plan has failed so it's time to act. Badass.

the lizzies are going out Maya style....i just hoppe they dont dessapear like the mayans...i really like them,... 

To be fair we don't know what this exodus means. It could be many things such as an exodus from Lustria (sparking an invasion into another populated section of the world); it could well be an exodus off world but that seems unlikely; it could also be some kind of exodus from the spawning pools. Some hidden strength of numbers that they have concealed finally leave their stations in order to come out and fight. It could be anything!

I really hope the Exodus is a move towards the Southern Chaos Gate so we can finally have Penguin Beastmen!!!

I'm very excited about this from a Tomb King point of view, the way I see it now it's pointless running a Tomb Kings force, just use the Undead Legions army list and eliminate the need for the Hierophant but also allows marching within 12" of the general.  Incredible stuff that I feel can really elevate the army.

Very keen to try this and I think I'll be buy a set shortly.

So, with the eruption of the volcanoes in the mountains of mourn. What does that mean for the skaven and dwarves that live in the mountains as well?

So, with the eruption of the volcanoes in the mountains of mourn. What does that mean for the skaven and dwarves that live in the mountains as well?

Third degree burns.

Roast rat anyone?

Takes me back to Wesley snipes and Demolition man

Takes me back to Wesley snipes and Demolition man

Gotta love that film! 

Kind regards Zolas.

Waiting on my copy of the book to come... very excited about the idea of a skeletal horde using VC and TK together. Yay skeledudes!!!

SPOILER ALERT

 DO NOT READ AHEAD IF YOU DON'T WANT THE STORY RUINED!



The premise of the entire book at the moment appears to be (one side of the story in a:) Chaos Gods vs Undeath for the fate of the world. Nagash intends to finally confront the Gods themselves and remove them/peplace them so the realm of chaos becomes his as well as the underworld (which he conquers in this book!!) and the whole world becomes a never changing permanent just like his dream for the Nehekhara of old.

We have heard tales of Nurgle things coming with the next book in October and apparently a big kit of some kind.

Well here's the spoiler, Settra is not dead. The Imperishable Settra is in some beautiful artwork at the end of the book having a lovely chat with the 4 Gods of Chaos and in the last text they offer him the chance to be king again and say it doesn't have to be over.

Huge leap here, but considering the threat Nagash poses to the Gods. Granting him help in their own version of Undeath (Nurgle) does seem the most likely. Who wouldn't like to see a Nurgle-y Settra on a Toad Dragon with Nurgle Warriors?

It certainly adds another layer to things.

Also - just some other tidbits:
Valten is written in a way that suggests he may well turn out to be the herald of Sigmar's return or him reborn.
Crom the Conqueror is so dead.
The Anvil of Doom belonging to Thorek Ironbrow broke irreparably and he was killed by Neferata (but his body was dragged away so expect him to miraculously live).
The fellblade that previously slated nag ash is now in his possession, there is a lot of talk of a weapon that could slay him still the blade of destinies or eternities or something (can't remember) which was in a tomb in Khemri. Prince Apophas does stab him with it but it doesn't work. Several options here: 1. He's just too powerful now. 2. It wasn't the real blade and it's been stolen/replaced etc 3. The myth isn't true and that blade would never have worked (which in a fantasy setting is unlikely).
Hope these updates are helpful!
Enjoy!

Do you think that gw will implement some sort of army factions system?

That can perhaps use mixed units? somethnig on te line of the new undead ( VC + TK). It is hinted that the leves can unite. Also there are indications in the book. In our case some of the tribes have joined WC and others are rulling orcs in the badlands....
even the classicly secluded and isolated lizzies are on the march wich opens such posibbiities...

Well...put simply, Fantasy isn't selling as well as 40k by a large margin. So reductions have to be made from a business point of view. Combining armies (TK and VC already done) through this storyline will lead (in my opinion) to a ninth edition with fewer 'armies'. Not that races will disappear (though they might!) it's that they'll combine and cut down on model production drastically. If they are drastic I would expect:

HE and DE unite (I know) under the banner of Malekith probably with any dissenters wiped out.
3 Chaos Factions reunited possibly even with Skaven involved here
Empire & Brettonia obvious model range duplicates here - why have two ranges of human knights and footmen?
Ogres may become Dogs of War again or remain as we are
WE rejoin their kin? Not sure here.
O&G are a tough one - they are a fantasy staple - which makes them a problem for GW as people can again buy similar products elsewhere for cheaper. Who knows.
Dwarfs - no idea, possibly teleport to safety using the portals of Valaya they discover
Lizardmen - also talk of an exodus. Possible goodbye?

Who did I leave out...?

I think rather than basic combinations, what they're doing is allowing mixed forces. It's not a bad move as it allows people to buy more models without having to commit themselves to an entirely new army.

I imagine Ogres will, rather than be subsumed into another army, be allowed as mercenaries again in a variety of armies. Ogres are already pretty cheap to get a basic unit of, and it's a quick buck for GW from a lot of players.

The other books coming out suggest further mixing too - the Chaos one looks like it could be a fun Daemon/Warrior/Beastmen mix. Not sure about Skaven, but who knows.

Granted, this could complicate game balance. But hey, it's not unfair when everyone's overpowered!

Mixed forces ... is the same as basic combinations. They've essentially put tomb kings and vampire counts together under Vampire Counts rule and hey presto, new army.

What I am suggesting is that this is a middle stage. A six month time period IRL of 'The End Times' releases to advance the timeline which will soften the blow when the post-apocalyptic 9th edition comes out with a much reduced number of separate armies which will reduce book production costs (they've never been all up to date at once after all) and also model production costs.

It's a risk, but if it's not making money they could have discontinued the whole range. Instead they've poured money in which can only be good.

Take what you will with a pinch of salt but...time will tell.

I doubt that they will cancel entire armies, that would cause an outrage for people that have only those armies....merging is possible with the undead, but what about lizzies, skaven an such unique armies...

i am thinking of army factions to increase the possibilities, not decrease them...that would be foolish on their side...

Lizzies and Skaven are the only two problem armies.

Every single other one is subsumed easily in order to keep everyone's 'armies' alive and with new options available from the old other army they are combined with.

 Empire + Brettonnia + maybe Dwarfs for survival
Mortals + Daemons + Beasts + Dwarfs of Chaos
Elves band together
O&G
Skaven
Lizzies
VC and TK already done.
Ogres become mercenaries for all armies in a new ally system.

It would make all existing minis viable as representatives of other models in your post-apocalyptic world. Nobody is 'gone' and the cost of keeping the system going is greatly reduced for GW while output appears to be the same.

Again this is NOT cancelling armies. Merging as you put it would give the idea of more possibilities whilst greatly reducing their workload and crucially their costs.


Just a thought anyway. Change will always upset people but let's see what happens and lambast me if in a year and a half this proves nonsense (which I hope it is!)

BB

I doubt that they will cancel entire armies, that would cause an outrage for people that have only those armies...that would be foolish on their side...

Hmmm. I have but two words to say here;

Chaos Dwarves.

Whilst I would like to think that there is some deep-seated fluff lead re-vamp that empowers the entire fantasy range and increases the viability of armies either individually or as an allied army (as in; you could do both) I have to say that I am pretty much siding with BB here.
From a finance, production and sales perspective this unification and allying of armies makes perfect sense. It depends on how it is handled as to whether gamers will be on-board with the changes.

G_H

And - continuing G_H's point on how it is handled - initial reactions to Nagash have been overwhelmingly positive with what I'm sure will be a major upswing in sales.

All I can say is that whatever changes are happening, if they result in an end product of that quality (Nagash books) then for me it is only good.

P.s. A chaos dwarf daemonsmith and his kin are spotted fighting in the horde of Archaon in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels. As they appear to have stuck to all black library writing very closely so far I would assume the chaos dwarfs are both allied with (and possibly later subsumed into) the chaos factions!

BB

So no more good guys? I don't buy it. I think that allowing armies to ally easily would allow to sell lots of models and would make sense. You really don't want to alienate your player base by squatting an army once again.

A. 'Good guys' is a point of view haha

B. Again I reiterate: In what way has anything been said as 'no more good guys'? If for example, brettonnia were overrun and they were forced to make a home within the empire. Reinforced, better good guys. High elves and dark elves combine? Who says good turns to evil? Can't the yw ant redemption and a final return home? Lizzie's are 'good' as much as wood elves and ogres too.

Allies is one way of putting it but if they have one army book and are seen as one force...they would beans much allies as orcs and goblins are. The alliance of Elves. Army of Undeath. Mortals of the free world some nonsense like that, who knows!?

BB

I understand what you are saying, I'm just not sure it's a viable way to promote a game where your customer base is really attached to the unicity (is that a word?) of their armies.

I'll be honest, I think the real issue is not the fact that they are supporting too many armies, but rather the lack of support to said armies in between army book editions. If they added some units on a yearly basis to each army, it would constantly change the meta and would probably make people buy models on a more regular basis. Also, addind new units and changing the meta might make old units better so it would be an incentive to buy older models that were out of flavour and now usable once more.

Anyways, let's just hope that they end up keeping this wonderful game alive and viable in the long run.

I absolutely agree.

I believe uniqueness was what you were looking for ?

I think there are many ways to solve the problem (and you can be sure they had/have a problem) with Fantasy sales, and their previous tactic wasn't working.

I'm merely commenting on the tactic they appear to have chosen...

As you said, as long as it keeps the game alive, invigorates it and gets people excited to play and model again. I'm involved!

But hold on a moment....

For me and i think for a lot of peopple in the wh community that would mean sticking in the current edition...

will i buy an entire new set of wc or O&G because my ogre army gets fused with them so that i would be able to play? absolutely not....

Will i buy HE or something alike to merge my lizzie army, absolutly not, i dont even like HE....

buissines wise I think it would be a bad move for them...

But hold on a moment....

For me and i think for a lot of peopple in the wh community that would mean sticking in the current edition...

will i buy an entire new set of wc or O&G because my ogre army gets fused with them so that i would be able to play? absolutely not....

Will i buy HE or something alike to merge my lizzie army, absolutly not, i dont even like HE....

buissines wise I think it would be a bad move for them...

Dude, the Lore of Undeath means we can already use a metric tonne of Undead units in every existing army. Heck, I am very seriously contemplating using it in my Lietpold the Black Empire army.

Removing barriers is never a bad move. If Ogres get access to Warrior or O&G allies I'd probably use one or two units for the lulz. And there's no rule saying you have to use High Elves with your Lizardmen just because the option's there.

Firstly, we are all talking in conjecture here; nothing as such, has happened yet.

As for points on uniqueness, surely that would be the point of "fusing" armies as people have put it. Lets say I have ogres and my friend has WE. If they fused the two then in theory I could buy a couple of units of WE to pad out my army (probably with the abilities that my OK army lacks). My friend is going to do the same.

What we would end up with is my army being predominantly ogres, with some WE and his would be the opposite. Both the same army, but completely different.

When 40k did this allies system many people didn't bat an eye-lid as they added IG to their SM army or GK to their smurfs. The system that allowed two forces (even as bizarre as Orks and SM) to combine just made people armies more individual as far as I can see.

There is nothing saying that GW wont do this with fantasy. Yes, they may join TK and VC but there is no concrete proof that they will join any other forces together, and even if they did this may not put people off expanding their existing army.

If you look at the state of 40k now, in my opinion, it is ridiculous that any army can take any quantity of any unit with no regard to FOC and even combine units from different armies to maximize their force. They could do this with fantasy if they chose.

Either way, the army that everyone would end up with would be at the very least individual. Even now if your a TK player and you expand into the Nagash thing, your army may be very different from your VC mate who does the same.

For me the most important thing is that (at present) GW are looking at Fantasy and saying "we need to change stuff". Excellent, it's been stagnant for a while now and does need a kick up the a**e! Will it be for the better? Who knows, I hope so. I had a whole bunch of old school plastic CD when they cut them and I was gutted...didn't stop me starting an OK army and continuing to play.

lets embrace the fact that there is now a renewed sense of interest by GW in looking at WFB and making changes. If the Nagash book is anything to go by, it could be really good for the game.

G_H

But hold on a moment....

For me and i think for a lot of peopple in the wh community that would mean sticking in the current edition...

will i buy an entire new set of wc or O&G because my ogre army gets fused with them so that i would be able to play? absolutely not....

Will i buy HE or something alike to merge my lizzie army, absolutly not, i dont even like HE....

buissines wise I think it would be a bad move for them...

Dude, the Lore of Undeath means we can already use a metric tonne of Undead units in every existing army. Heck, I am very seriously contemplating using it in my Lietpold the Black Empire army.

Removing barriers is never a bad move. If Ogres get access to Warrior or O&G allies I'd probably use one or two units for the lulz. And there's no rule saying you have to use High Elves with your Lizardmen just because the option's there.

you misunderstood me

If this is given as an option than I agree with you and this is great, we will have more options, combinations, more colorfoull armies etc... if it is done as an requirement, and in 9th edition you have joined armies, that must field combine races units than that sucks in my opinion....

As G_H said - it would just give you the option.

Just because we have the option for Gorgers, Greasus or Ironguts doesn't mean you have to take them. But you can if you want to So having the option for The Empire to take a contingent of Brettonian Knights wouldn't be that strange. It also is arguably more like what might actually happen in strange situations in a real life world.

Again this is just conjecture and fun contemplation of the possibilities 

BB

Hmm, I can't see it being done as a requirement. This Nagash book pretty much spits in the face of all army restrictions. No necessary Lore of Vamp/Nehek generals or Heirophants or what have you.

If anything, it's more likely to mean the end of the Butcher Tax! Squee^^

Agreed. i think the obvious option is to allow people to buy whatever minis they like (as thats what we want to do anyway) and make the game as balanced as possible from that angle. That would make sense for sales anyway...

BB

^ and of course for building your own army. You see that lovely model you want to get your hands on to paint like the O&G river trolls or the Dragon Ogres, but they don't actually fit into your army? Well, now they could.
No more need to scrabble around trying to fluff them into the army or just paint them and bang them onto the shelf or into a box; now they can be part of your force. Possibly; it's all just theory on our part.

As for having to field combined armies; is it really the end of times ( ....alright G_H your not funny  ) or just the beginning of something else? We all want new OK models right? So, if you are told well the OK army is now aligned with, lets say at random, Lizardmen. You can't tell me that there isn't one unit that you couldn't find that you wouldn't have to say "actually, I wouldn't mind painting/ converting or adding them into my army".

Or we could look at it this way; lets take O&G or even DoC. I love O&G but I could actually (currently) field and entire army made up of Night Goblins. It's still O&G...just without the orcs! The same goes for DoC; I love the Nurgle thing but am not too bothered about the whole Slaanesh thing, so I could build an army entirely made up of Nurgle models. Playable? Oh yes. Viable? Well, with some real tweaking yes. Why would combined armies be any different?

OK and Lizardmen get combined (as an example) and you decide; " you know what, I'm not going to bother with the Lizard side of it...I'm sticking with my Ogres only force" still could be viable and still count as an Ogres & Lizardman army.

This transposes to the Nagash this; I love my VC army and want to Nagash that sucker (puns, puns and more puns  ) but there is no way I am wasting money on TK's....well it's still viable, and still counts as a combined army.

I don't see the stress in it. These things already exist, and I don't really see this new push as anything different to ideas that already exist. I doubt that GW will force anyone to do something, if they have any sense they will make it so competitive and attractive that people (especially the gamers) will want to buy new stuff and do a combined army.

just my thoughts.

G_H

I fully agree with G_H. I really like the nagash model, and although I don't have Mich love for TK, I have picked up some vc models here and there over time, (what can I say, I like skeletons). The fact I could use those skeletons instead of leaving them on the shelf where they've been so quietly perched collecting dust excites me, and encourages me to go get more. And to his other point, there are one or two units I do like in TK, and now that I don't have to devote to an entire army, I can pick those models up, enjoy painting them, and actually use them. I don't see how this would be an issue along all armies...

If bretonnians merged into empire I'd be fine with that too. Back in 6th there were several empire units I admired, and even more so now, but I wouldn't then, nor would I now, devote to an entire empire army. Getting to use both would be phenomenal.