1500 v TK or New Dwarfs

Any glaring errors please?
Not sure which I will face, Dwarves or TK's.
Ty in advance for any tips!

Heroes & Lords
Bruiser-143 (General)
BSB/Lookout/IF/Hvy.Arm
Butcher-138
Ll2/IF

Core
Ironguts x 6-293
FC/Lookout
Bulls x7-254
FC/IF

Special
Mournfang x 3-290
FC/IF/Hvy.Arm/Dragonhide
Sabers x 2- 42

Rare
Ironblasters x 2-340
1500

Okay I have played both TK and Dwarfs so this is my 2 cents'

Make 2 lists 1 for each army you have to face, so you can specialise not try and cover both. Against TK take the Hellheart, it works wonders against them and any other magic based army, so most other armies.

Keep the Mournfang, as they to are amazing.

Either take one big unit of Bulls or one big unit of Ironguts, and against Dwarfs You want a massive ogre block, against the TK take a larger Irongut block as the TK weapons will bounce off them; also the Bulls are equally as good Ironguts in CC, especially with IF, 5+ save, 5 toughness (Trollguts) and a parry with attacks at initiative is much better than Ironguts also.

Finally take some Sabretusks as diversion units for anything that wants to attack you in CC, and they help keeping units off your Ironblasters

Hope I helped

If you draw TK, be careful to keep the MF close to the General; MF are especially vulnerable to Light of Death from the Casket, which is pretty much an auto-include in any TK list.

Good Evening Ceodoc,

Here are 3 lists I would use against Dwarves:

List 1
Slaughtermaster
Great Weapon, Lore of the Great Maw, Wizard Level 4
Crown of Command , Dragonhelm, Forbidden Rod

8 x Ironguts
Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Look-out Gnoblar

2 x Rhinox Riders
Heavy Armour, Ironfists, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
2 x Rhinox Riders
Heavy Armour, Ironfists.
2 x Rhinox Riders
Heavy Armour, Ironfists.

Sabretusk

Total 1500 points

List 2
Slaughtermaster
Great Weapon, Lore of the Great Maw, Wizard Level 4
Crown of Command , Dragonhelm, Forbidden Rod

8 x Ironguts
Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Look-out Gnoblar

8 x Leadbelchers
8 x Leadbelchers

Sabretusk
Sabretusk

Total 1499 points

List 3
Slaughtermaster
Great Weapon, Lore of the Great Maw, Wizard Level 4
Crown of Command , Dragonhelm, Forbidden Rod

8 x Ironguts
Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Look-out Gnoblar

4 x Leadbelchers
4 x Leadbelchers

Sabretusk
Sabretusk

IronBlaster
IronBlaster

Total 1495 points

Points to Note
(1) List 1 is only viable if your opponent allows you to use ForgeWorld models and rules. This is a very hard-hitting list and excels in close combat.

(2) List 2 has some close combat prowess and is great if you can out-gun the dwarves.

(3) List 3 has some close combat prowess, gunline potential and ability to remove high toughness models.

(4) I have included the forbidden rod to increase the chance of successfully casting spells. With the Lore Attribute, it is possible to regain lost wounds, if a spell is successfully cast even if it is subsequently dispelled!

(5) SM and IGs to form a 3x3 formation in all lists to make use of S6 impact hits and have 3 ranks. They can also switch to 2 ranks if need be to increase the number of close combat hits.
Thoughts?
List 1

List two isn't all that viable, given that you have no way to kill war machines at range.  A pair of Organ Guns (the most common of Dwarven war machines) will obliterate that army in short order.  List 3 is the better one, though I'd swap the Ironguts for Bulls so you get more bodies

Evening Nihmwit,

Thanks for your reply and advice. I agree with you about the removing the Organ Guns via Iron Blasters.

Bulls over Ironguts is a double-edged sword. On one side you get more bodies, the same armour save but also a 6+ parry save. On the other side, you get S4 attacks instead of S6.

I've created a 4th list:

List 4
Slaughtermaster
Great Weapon, Lore of The Great Maw, Level 4
Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Forbidden Rod

8 x Ironguts
Full Command, Standard of Discipline

3 x Grimhorn Rhinox Riders, Heavy Armour, Ironfists
Standardbearer, Banner of Eternal Flame

Sabretusk
Sabretusk

Ironblaster
Ironblaster

Total Points: 1501

As Dwarves are T4 and heavily armoured, S4 attacks will cause far fewer wounds than S6 attacks.
S4 attacks could be boosted by casting Bullgorger (if it is successfully selected).

In addition, Bulls are unable to select a magical banner making the BSB a necessity. This will mean either the loss of an IB or a Rhinox Rider.

Dwarf armies are generally very good at stopping spells from going through, so it is unlikely that 2 spells would be successfully cast per turn. Emphasis should be on casting bubbled Toothcracker or Trollguts to increase survivability.

The Forbidden Rod was included in all the lists to increase the chances of spells being cast.
On an average turn the SM should lose 2 wounds, regaining one from successfully casting a spell. He can hide in the second rank of the 3 x 3 IG unit until he recovers the 2nd wound.

The only problem I see is the opponent refusing to play against an army with Rhinox Riders!

Rhinox Riders are the bee's knees, can't argue there.  But leaving the BSB home just makes me shiver; I have trouble with my leadership roles WITH the reroll  .

My preference for Bulls stems from the preference of a lot of Dwarf players to run great weapons.  More bodies + striking first = gutted unit in my experience (I love slaughtering Hammerers with Bulls and leadbelchers ), but a lot of it comes to play style, and Ironguts have their place, so long as you plan for it.

Dwarf magic defense took a real hit in the most recent book, so don't discount magic too much.  Most Dwarf players also run Runesmiths as their generals, so don't worry too much about super-killy characters, especially at 1500 points.

If you can't take Rhinox, then proxy some maneaters.  Scout combined with anything else is fantastic for low-model-count armies like the dwarfs.

Hello again Nihmwit,

Thanks for your reply. Sound advice given, here's another attempt vs Dwarfs (Dwarves)

List 5

Slaughtermaster, General
Great Weapon, Lore of The Great Maw, Level 4
Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem, Forbidden Rod

BSB
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Standard of Discipline

10 x Ogres,
Handweapon & Ironfist, Full Command, Lookout Gnoblar

10 x Gnoblars

1 x Grimhorn Rhinox Rider, Heavy Armour, Ironfist
1 x Grimhorn Rhinox Rider, Heavy Armour, Ironfist

1 Sabretusks

Ironblaster
Ironblaster

Total Points: 1501

Plan
(1) SM and BSB to join Ogres to in a 4 x 3 formation. SM and FC in front rank. BSB in the 2nd rank.
(2) IBs to take out Organ guns
(3) RRs to flank or rear-charge core units.
(4) Sabretusk to redirect
(5) Hope to get the following spells Trollguts, Toothcracker and Bullgorger in that order. The first 2 spells to increase survivability and the 3rd to increase S4 to S5 attacks.

Pros
(1) Re-rollable Ld 9 should result in less failed  tests.
(2) More bodies (Bulls vs IGs).
(3) More likely to get off more spells than in previous editions of Warhammer.

Cons
(1) Loss of many S6 attacks.
(2) Loss of 1 x RR & 1 x Sabretusk.

What do you think?

How would you tailor the list against TK?

List 1 vs TK
Slaughtermaster, General
Great Weapon, Lore of The Great Maw, Level 4
Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem, Forbidden Rod

7 x Ironguts,
Lookout Gnoblar, Musician, Standardbearer, Standard of Discipline
SM joins to give a 4 x 2 formation.

15 x Gnoblars
5 x 3 formation.

8 Leadbelchers
4 x 2 formation

8 Leadbelchers
4 x 2 formation

Sabretusks
Sabretusks
Sabretusks

Total 1499.5 points

Pros
16 x D6 shots = 56 on average!
Usual stubborn Ld9.
Ld9 Inspiring presence.

Cons
No IBs means maximum ranged attacks are only 24 inches
No flaming attacks
No BSB

Total special units = 751 (1 point over maximum... shouldn't be a problem, should it?)

List 2 vs TK
Firebelly, General
Great Weapon, Level 2
Ruby Ring of Ruin

BSB
Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem, Enchanted Shield

7 x Ironguts
Musician, Standardbearer, Champion, Lookout Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline
FB & BSB join for a 3 x 3 formation, FB in 2nd rank.

10 x Gnoblars
5 x 2 formation

10 x Gnoblars
5 x 2 formation

8 x Leadbelchers
4 x 2 formation

8 x Leadbelchers
4 x 2 formation

Sabretusk
Sabretusk

Total 1499 points

Pros
Flaming attacks - potentially 2 fireballs each turn! (potential for 48 inch ranged attacks)
BSB brings in a stubborn re-rollable Ld9 for main unit.
16 x D6 shots = 56 on average!
More offensive spells

Cons
No augments available for the army.
FB is weak against poison
Inspiring presence is now only Ld8
Weaker magic - L2 vs L4.
Less defensive spells.

Feedback welcome!

As a TK and ogre player, I'd be wanting an ironblaster in there for one reason - the casket. Its an auto-include for a TK player and can wreck units easily if you're not careful and you I'll want to shoot it off the board from the start if possible.

Villan_Ogre,

Just had a look at the the TK Army book, the casket looks incredible.

Surely TK players would take 2 caskets and 1 catapult (or the other way around).
With this in mind, probably best to go for 2 IBs

List 3 vs TK
Firebelly, General
Great Weapon, Level 2
Ruby Ring of Ruin

BSB
Heavy Armour, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem, Enchanted Shield

7 x Ironguts,
Full Command, Lookout Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline
FB and BSB join to make a 3 x3 formation. FB in the 2nd rank.

14 x Gnoblars
7 x 2 formation

4 x Leadbelchers
4 x Leadbelchers

Sabretusk
Sabretusk
Sabretusk

Ironblaster
Ironblaster

Total 1501 points

2 Caskets is not uncommon and is also very nasty. Other things to watch out for are a lot of wizards, either death or a light council, usually bunkered in some archers. Queen Kalidah (sp?) if taken can be nasty, and entombed beneath the sands stalkers can be a pain. The catapult is not always as good as it looks on paper and is a somewhat debated item, some players swear by them whereas others won't use them.

I think the new list is likely to be more effective, if he doesn't take 2 caskets, the IB will be able to help take out any big monsters (sphinxs or heirotitan) he might take instead. They can also bounce through the big block of skeletons.

OK this might be a personal thing by why the gnoblars if not with trappers? I know you can't fit it points wise. In my opinion, against tk you want bulls not IG. Just because those extra bodies in a block will make a big difference combined with if, they are also more survivable. That's what I would bring.

If you still want IG, a good choice still, then drop the knoblars and the ruby ring on the firebelly and give him the hell heart. Watch those mages explode in their own units!
Fug

I think trappers against tomb kings are not so important as you're less likely to get charged, they will more likely sit back and pepper you with arrows/magic. I agree about bulls though, against TK you won't be striking last with bulls and won't need the extra strength against the skeletons, although ironguts will be better if he has a T8 sphinx or 2 hanging about.

The hell heart would be great but getting near his casters with it could prove difficult, they'll castle up and run out the back of units if needed while your stuck in a giant skeleton regenerating tarpit.

Finally, I'd keep the ruby ring if you can, remember the TK are all flammable..