Advanced warfare

Hi all.

I have been playing ogres/fantasy for a while now with a group of friends.

Sadly however the fantasy scene is slowly dying in my area, so looking towards WH40K which has seen a recent revival with the release of 7th ed. Problem being I have never played 40k in my life.

I have recently been to 2 local club days observing the ongoings and learning the subtle differences, and try to pick an army to paint up. so far i am stuck between Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

which 40k army should i run? i have listed the key factors that I look for when picking an army.

Model - Dark eldar are my favorite no contest. I mean come on....space pirates....who does not like that. Although recently i have been looking at Grey Knights - (maybe a Brotherhood of steel Fallout army)

Maneuverability - looking for an opposite to Ogres here. something along the lines of wood elves style play.
 from what i read DE are the best in game at it. while i look at GK and think not that manuverable. (what are interceptors like? and obviously i can get rhino's/ravens)

basically i am asking are Dark eldar viable in 7th edition i know they're fragile (pretty much my only fear is they're too fragile) DE crumble in a stiff breeze, while if that breeze happend to come from a nuclear blast, GK laugh and ask who farted.

i am trying to borrow some DE and GK models to have a game before i make my choice.

as a side note. what i DON'T want in an army is as follows:
Horde style army (which kinda rules out orks/imperials)
Melee only (tyranids)(blood angles might even fit in here although they are very mobile with the jump troops.)
space marine Bikes (do not like the models (rules out dark angels))
Demons are out due to resemblence to WHF
Chaos space marines i like the MARINES but not the big monsters maulerfiend/hell drake and the lawnmower.

any help that can be offered in choosing an army will be greatly appreciated.

Sure, Dark Eldar are hands down the most maneuverable army in the game. But yes, they are also one of the most fragile armies. With the addition of Overwatch, this can be a pain, even though the opponent is firing snap shots... The Mistress of Luck is a fickle creature Anyway, this means that the learning curve for the army can be a bit steeper. Then again, you do have a grasp of the play style, since they are relatively similar to Wood Elves, so the comparisons from FB do help

Grey Knights on the other hand are Space Marines. So it's relatively easy to get average performance against all opponents. Of course, Grey Knights are geared against Daemonic opponents, so you're paying extra for a couple of special rules that don't work that well against non-Daemonic armies, but this has been toned down in the current codex. But the amount of Force Weapons that you have access to can be a huge boon, as multi-wound models can be somewhat easier to take down However, you will be outnumbered by your opponents almost all of the time

Grey Knights can be maneuverable, as Interceptors are jump infantry with the ability of once per game doing a longer jump move. Also, the rate of fire from small units is tremendous as every Grey Knight has a storm bolter in the base profile. And like you mentioned, Stormravens and Rhinos do make your units move that much faster But they won't be the same as Dark Eldar in that regard

So, if you're going for a very fast army, then take Dark Eldar. If you want to sacrifice a bit of speed for more durability, then go with Grey Knights. I like the idea of a Brotherhood of Steel themed army But yeah, definitely check out the armies with borrowed models if possible. That gives you a very good idea of how they work and what you want

Hope this helps!

- Loran

As an 8 year 40k player who has both DE and Knights, my take on both:

While the Dark Eldar are one of the quickest armies on the board (and in the line for a new codex soon), Rhinos can really get your troops to where they need to be thanks to the extra 6" flat out move they get. Another thing to consider is that since the Knights all have 24" guns, you don't need to get close to fire for full effect, so maneuverability isn't as necessary for Knights since they can still fully engage their opponent from half a table away. Interceptors are just fun, though. Especially when you use a grandmaster to give them scout.

That said, the Dark Eldar can cross the entire table in one turn (and in the case of Reavers, can hit you while they do it). The Dark Eldar do not form gunlines. They don't even have a "front" really. Each Dark Eldar unit is its own self-contained threat that can dart around the enemy and wreak its own brand of havoc. To really complete this strategy, you can ally with craftworld eldar and bring Windrider Jetbikes as extra scoring units and outflanking war walkers (which, with battlefocus, are a lot faster than they look) for some vicious fire from an unexpected flank.

As for the "durability" of Grey Knights, while individual models are tougher than the Eldar you have a lot fewer of them, and at a minimum of 20 points each every casualty you take hurts. Interestingly, neither the Knights or the Dark Eldar can afford to commit themselves to a battle of attrition; they both have to use their range and maneuverability to pick apart their enemies in a piecemeal fashion. 7th edition has a lot of armies that can dish out a ton of firepower (Tau, Necrons, IG... er "Astra Militarum", Dark Angels, etc), so if you find yourself relying on T4 and 3+ to keep your troops alive, you will likely find yourself short handed pretty quickly. Far better to treat them as fragile and only expose them (ie get them out of a Rhino) when you have a clear advantage.

One last note: Psychic Powers. Grey Knights are the only army that can make safe use of the powerful "Santic Daemonology." They also will out-produce any other army in power dice every turn: Since every squad has Brotherhood of Psykers and every vehicle has a Psychic Pilot, you will never find yourself in a situation where you don't have the dice to get off the powers you really need. If Dark Eldar want psychic powers they need to bring some Craftworld Eldar allies (who do have powerful psykers in their own right).

Hope this helps you decide! Play some games and get a feel for them. The most important thing about your new army is that you like them. Good Luck!

Oh, indeed. What I meant with durability, was comparing single models. I should have mentioned that more clearly, my apologies That is the main issue with Grey Knights. You will be outnumbered. Always. Or well, you might have more models than a Nid'Zilla army, or an army of Knights, but those are relatively rare cases, at least over here. Depends on your local meta

- Loran

Thanks for the reply guys.

Still not entirely sure what I will run, I do have a game in 2 weeks using a friends gk army and I have just joined the local gaming club during a slow grow comp so have a few 700pts battles lined up. Will see how I go

Sounds like you like the models for DE and you like the play style of DE. I think that's the army for you! Learning curve and power level be damned. But as I understand it DE are far from a weak army. At least in 6th they weren't. I have no clue about 7th but I doubt it is that different.

Sounds like you like the models for DE and you like the play style of DE. I think that's the army for you! Learning curve and power level be damned. But as I understand it DE are far from a weak army. At least in 6th they weren't. I have no clue about 7th but I doubt it is that different.

They are still quite strong when played correctly, and with the new vehicle damage table their craft are a bit tougher. The main thing about the dark eldar is that they can entirely dispense with the idea of a "front." They are so quick and their transports so cheap that they can literally swarm you like hornets. Hornets with guns. Poisoned guns. Poisoned guns that work on artillery pieces and robots...

....reading through the 40k rule book after knowing the BRB...40k is soooo badly written and set out.

Does anyone else find this?

Yes.
I don't know if it's purely by accident, or if WFB is secretly the GW guys' favorite game (from what I hear, it's actually is), but fantasy rules are (on average) far better written, and the army books far (FAR!) closer in terms of balance.

40k can still be an absolute blast to play, but it requires a bit of a negotiation and gentleman's agreements before you start, just to make sure you're on the same page.  Just beware: 7th ed 40k is also the most BREAKABLE edition in years, and if you don't have that pre-game discussion, you might find yourself facing a rules-abusing wank-tard that will treat you to the single most un-fun, hobby-killing 3 hours of your life.

BTW, DE (while a fantastic army) is relatively horde-based, in that you need LOTS of units and LOTS of vehicles.  If you already have them, or can get them cheaply, then definitely go for it.  However, as a minimum assume you need 4 venoms, 2 raiders, and 2 ravagers (along with the troops to go in the venoms and raiders).