Leadbeltchers vs Iron Blasters; which do you choose?

Hi guys. I'm working on my army list for a local tournament at the moment, and i can't decide how to army myself.

I've got one iron blaster already, but i can't decide between a second or a unit of leadbeltchers. I know the lead's will wipe out fast calavry, but on the reserve side i've got the extra cannon to put down chariots/monsters. What do you guys tend to choose?

-skrall

Hi Skrall

What else do you have in your list?

Matt

I'm running a butcher (lvl1 gut), bruiser (bsb with the anti-magic banner), a lvl4 slaughter master, 10 ogres (12 with characters), 5 iron guts (6with the lvl1), a 4 man mournfang block. They're all kitted out to do the the max damage/survive the most damage while keeping the points costs towards the lower end. The real question is my shooting element, whether i go for 2 irons, or an iron and leads.

-skrall

I would go for 1 IB and get some Sabretusks in your list.  Then use remaining points to beef up your block of Guts.

I'm actually in the Leadbelcher camp myself.  Considering a unit of 6 leadbelchers can fight almost as well as a unit of 6 Ogres, plus they soften the unit up with shooting before they get into combat.  The Leadbelchers are going to do better against large units compared to the Ironblaster as well (in shooting), and they don't have the risk of misfiring.

Ironblaster. Better at shooting and better in combat!

I'm new to ogres, so no experience here, but for what it's worth I would go with the leadbelchers. They have a much better capacity to handle the fast cavalry as you suggest but they're no slouch in taking chunks out of hordes as well.

Well, there's a good argument for both sides.

To start off, cost. The IB is only 12 points cheaper than 4 Leadies with a musician, so it's not too hard to balance them off just the cost (as opposed to, say, a unit of Yhetees versus a single Sabretusk, etc. etc.).

Pros for double IB:
1. Better odds of killing monsters/heavy cavalry. Even if one blows up, you'd still have a second.
2. Solid Chariot for late-game ramming power. They're good in a flank even if they can't fire.
3. Longer range; this can be important against some matchups, like other Ogres or Brets, who want you to get in close for them to countercharge.
4. Sturdier in combat; T5(6?idr) with a 4+ and 4(5?idr) wounds is hard for most things to chew through. And the few things that are designed to go after war machines will have a hard time facing off against these.

Cons for double IB:
1. More odds for misfires, and nothing's more frustrating than having both cannons crack or explode.
2. Less CC attacks. This is assumed that it's either after the charge, or if the IBs are charged themselves.
3. People call cheese more easily

Pros for Leadbelchers:
1. Excellent chaff killers. This is especially important if you're running a Gutstar-styled list; it allows your big units to maneuver the field more easily mid-game for the important charges!
2. More shots/hits/CC-attacks. Overall, they'll get more shots, and whereas they'll do much less against monsters/1+cav, they're great for thinning out enemy hordes/character bunkers prior to the final slam. This has its own importances, too... Although, mind you, my 4-packs of Leadies do just fine against Silverhelms
3. No misfire chances (This is a big deal for me, who had to suffer through the old book's rules, where I'd roll multiple misfires, get 2 shots, and have the unit wiped from the table lol).

Cons for Leadbelchers:
1. Mediocre Range. Depending on the game, you may only get one or two shots off with these guys before everything gets muddled. Then, after that, they lose a lot of their usefulness.
2. Not-so-sturdy. When they're in combat, they end up just being expensive Ogres. The key to them is to not let them get into combat until there's no other option
3. Blah BS. They only have BS3, but with the benefits of not having to get penalized for moving or multi-shot, they still end up only hitting on 5's or 6's in most situations, which makes them not really do as much in certain situations.

...Overall, I would probably cast my vote in with the Leadbelcher choice, but that's because I like their ability to clean off chaff, which is something that I think Ogres have a trouble dealing with otherwise. Sabretusks are okay for counterchaffing, but they're better served character/warmachine hunting.

Ultimately, though, the choice is up to you. Do you think, that in your meta, having two Ironblasters to deal with monsters or heavy cavalry will be good? Or, do you think, that having Leadbelcher cleaning up wolves and eagles and other chaff will be better for allowing your armies to advance? Maybe even try a test game playing with one or the other options!

Variety.  Go the leaddies.

Leadbelchers all the way, after that THEN a second IB. With the elf meta of today's game it's all about armies that can get rid of fast cav and tear chunks out of big T3 blocks. Leadies are my leaf blowers vs the elves, and provided they don't get soul quenched/doom bolted/BT'd off the table I can rest assured they will cause the elves a lot of pain

If this is for a tournament, there's unfortunately no contest. Second ironblaster.

Leadbelchers don't win out against other special choices let alone against the IB. Not to say you can't have leadbelchers and I've found them good in a shooting heavy list. But a shooting heavy list has ironblasters and poison handgun maneaters first and belchers after.

Given that you're running two big hammers (your Bull unit and your MFC) you're GOING to need some way to clear chaff, otherwise you'll never get into combat on your own terms.  so, for your current list, I'd say go with the leadies.

For me?  I start with the characters, then usually take 6 leadies and two Ironblasters, and then build from there.

Unfortunately leadbelchers aren't very reliable for killing chaff. A unit of two mournfang costs about the same as three leadbelchers and is a much more useful unit IMO.

Unfortunately leadbelchers aren't very reliable for killing chaff. A unit of two mournfang costs about the same as three leadbelchers and is a much more useful unit IMO.

You mean a random shot number and hitting on 5s consistently isn't reliable? 

As the man said mournfang are simply better at what leadbelchers provide. Another consideration is how proliferative wood elves have become in your area. They shoot off my leadbelchers in a round or two.

For me Leadies are all in the tactical application.  Four packs (2x2) make nice little support blocks, but 6-8 mans backed up by a heavens mage can deliver a lot of pain.  The 2x2 units are not really as survivable in the light shooting meta that seems to be evolving, but they do work as makeshift chaff if they get whittled.  If you can avoid panic mishaps, the 2 man MFC is probably the best cheap flank protection there is, but it requires you to go forward to engage and do damage.  I am not sure how desirable that is when you are looking at a meta that has both mobile monsters like the frost phoenix and an assortment of armor denying ranged shooting like way watchers. 

With that in mind, I have mostly used one six man unit and a single Ironblaster in my army of late.  I think if your meta is pig packed with artillery or nurgle WoC Princes of doom, then the second Ironblaster becomes essential.  Short of that, I think the second cannon is a waste.  Anyone who is still running a list that is hurt hard by cannons generally are building lists to circumvent that.  My tournament DoC list, as one example, runs two Soul Grinders to screen it.  All of my other tournament lists just stay away from easy cannon bait.  A lot of people I have seen are designing their armies in a similar manner.

...Short of that, I think the second cannon is a waste.  Anyone who is still running a list that is hurt hard by cannons generally are building lists to circumvent that.  My tournament DoC list, as one example, runs two Soul Grinders to screen it.  All of my other tournament lists just stay away from easy cannon bait.  A lot of people I have seen are designing their armies in a similar manner.

I think this is the result of the "pre-measured" cannonfire that 8th edition brought us. I know that a lot of the veterans didn't really "need" the pre-measuring to be good, but let's be honest, the fact that you can just simply say "10 inches from the back of my target" and have really good odds of hitting them (especially for our IBlasters bounce 're-roll' that we have) is making everyone more focused on the cannons.

As a result, cannons are starting to become less effective, because people have learned more over the past few years to either dodge, block, or counter the enemies cannons. Or, rather, maybe they aren't becoming less effective, or more of a "rock-paper-scissors" scenario, with them being good against a few niche targets that can't hide behind terrain or wardsaves.

I dunno, maybe I'm just tired, but this sounded productive

Naw, that's pretty much how I see it, too.  Shadow Magic is more or less in the same boat.  It is not that its somehow gotten less effective, just that the broader player base has faced it so much that the average player knows how to defend/marginalize it better.  That's how I see Ironblasters.  So, one to cover bases is all I generally take.

Though I have found people forget it can rip a rank from a bus. That also does depend on how many buses you fight mind...

There's also chariots too. Ironblasters and Leadbelchers do share the benefit that they'll both rarely be without a target and can fight competently in CC.

I don't see it. Ironblasters are so hard to hide from because they move. And while you can hide from one with blockers, hiding from two is very hard.

I very rarely face an opponent where iron blasters aren't useful. And when there's something you have to murderdeathkill turn 1, say magma cannons or warp lighting cannons or daemon princes, the having two is an absolute godsend.

Now I was running a shooty ogre list for a while, I had an etc list with poison maneaters, three small units of leadbelchers and two ironblasters and I liked that a lot as long as there wasn't too much terrain around. In the end I dropped the leadbelchers for mournfang because the etc maps are too chock full of terrain.

I agree one is an autoinclude, but I can't say that two are.  But then again I also run Poison Pistoleaters, so I have some major backup to mine.

Pretty much.  The only reason I would ever run a second Ironblaster is if I knew I'd be facing a lot of horrendously large things, and needed a spare in case the first one blew up.  Poison Pistoleaters tend to be my go to, but I also don't often run Mournfang.

Quick question for you guys,


Do you go braces or singles for Poison Pistoleaters? I've converted up a load with one pistol each, mainly as getting Ogre pistols is awkward. People probably won't mind if I say it's braces beforehand though.

WYSIWYG with maneaters is next to impossible to actually enforce, even GW can't enforce it on their own models. I doubt you'll find anyone who minds. The fact you went to all the trouble to get an actual ogre pistol for each should placate even the grumpiest of opponents

Hey, just to throw in my 2 cents; 2xIronblaster is cool, really fun for the first few games, they are awesome, and definetly the best buy you can make for our army, however, they tend to become boring for me, i start to regret taking out my opponents lord/centerpiece/monster turn 1, by firing 2 cannonballs at it.

So, i'd say take one, it's alot more fun to have a versatile army, and alot more rewarding/fun when you do kill the 5 wound monster with one cannon ball rather than 2 the same turn.

WYSIWYG with maneaters is next to impossible to actually enforce, even GW can't enforce it on their own models. I doubt you'll find anyone who minds. The fact you went to all the trouble to get an actual ogre pistol for each should placate even the grumpiest of opponents

Depends. One could argue that maneaters are the single most important unit to show wysiwyg on the figures because it's the only unit in the game where you can have a mix of equipment within the unit.  If you have them all equipped the same and can say "they all have brace of handguns" that's more acceptable but especially for tournaments, I would go the extra mile to ensure there's no confusion about your maneaters..

If your models are all homogenous in their gear, it matters less, if at all.  But if you have different gear on different guys, its 100% essential.  I skirted the issue by loading up my guys like Mexican banditos, swinging all manner of guns and weapons.  But on the table, I only ever run them all with one weapon type (usually brace of pistols).  I used to run the banner bearer with a great weapon, to cover bases, but I had a specific model for the GW version of the banner bearer in that unit when I did.  From a practical standpoint, its better to just run all one setup to cut down on potential confusion and speed up play, at least in tournaments.

My maneaters are completely WYSIWYG bar the ninja one but he does have throwing stars.

My maneaters are completely WYSIWYG bar the ninja one but he does have throwing stars.

For some reason I can imagine him carrying throwing pistols.

He may be WS4 BS4, but he's still as bright as any other Ogre!