Enemy of the Month - Dark Elves

Enemy of the Month – Dark Elves

Last month we covered Warriors of Chaos and they can potentially be one of the toughest match-ups for the Ogres if we don’t use our tools correctly.  This month we’re sticking with the forces of destruction and looking towards the vile and twisted lands of Naggaroth to see how we can combat the Dark Elves.



The Dark Elves have a wide variety of troop choices at their disposal from monsters, lots of shooting, strong magic and of course some of the best fast cavalry in the game.  At the core of their existence however lies a T3 lightly armoured soldier so focus on that in order to bring down the army.

Advantages:

Always Strikes First

This was the major rules up haul we first witnessed with the High Elves, by the time the Dark Elves were released with ASF it was a sure fire confirmation that this would become standard for Elves of all ethnical regions.  Normally we’ve got a bit of room to wiggle with our Ogres sometimes striking at the same time as opponents however against Dark Elves you can bet your dollars you’ll be striking last all the time.  What does this mean?  Basically you’ve got to pick your combats (usual Warhammer 101) but remember against base statistics (superior WS/Lower strength) they’ll be hitting on 3+’s (with re-rolls) and wounding on 5+’s (with re-roll 1’s).  Keep in mind a single augment (toothcracker/wildform) means the S3 Dark Elves are wounding on 6’s so you’ll drastically reduce the amount of incoming damage.  Also remember however the only S3 Dark Elves you’ll be facing are Dreadspears/Darkshards as Cold One Knights etc will be hoping to charge us and break in one single charge.

It brings up an interesting conversation on its own however.  Whilst we can’t defeat ASF there are ways we can mitigate it’s effects.

-   Thundertusk

The most glaringly obvious choice lies in our rare choices.  Now keep in mind this only cancels out the ASF ruling and will not effect great weapon wielding troops.  So the Dark Elves generally go from hitting on a 3+ to hitting on a 3+ with no re-roll.  Not that great is it?
-   Magical Augmentation

I personally think this is the best (not the most reliable) way of combat ASF troops.  Whilst Lore of the Maw and Beasts offer some fantastic toughness buffs to ensure wounding your army will be a little harder it becomes a case of readily getting hit and preparing for the storm.  Like all elves they survive on hitting first and hitting hard, if they get stuck in protracted combats they fall outside of their comfort zones.  If you can’t make the Dark Elves hit less then make it harder to wound.

-   Sword of Swift Slaying/Gold Sigil Sword

With a character tooled up you can negate some of the efficiency of attacks coming your way and prevent re-rolls.

- Impact Hits/Stomps/Thunderstomps

These go before ASF attacks so use that to your advantage.  It’s always better off to charge and get impact hits rather than be charged and just break.  T3 troops plain don’t like Stomps/Thunderstomps however that means you need troops left at the end of combat in order to perform these.

Speed

Movement 9 fast cavalry tends to get in and around things rather quickly.  Combine it with the fact some of it will be shooting, casting spells and in general leaving you frustrated with their vanguards you’ll want to counter this threat in the quickest and most lethal fashion available.  Left unchecked and a single unit of fast cavalry can easily turn your victory into a defeat because your character delivery system was kept out of a critical combat for a single turn.  Granted most of the below tackles the fast cavalry issue however it’s applicable to other fast moving elements.  Other than that they’re typical movement 5 infantry so although they’re slightly slower than the average Ogre they’re are quicker off the mark and human armies.

Countered with:

-   Shooting (Leadbelchers/Maneaters/Harpoon Launchers/Thundertusk/Scraplauncher)

There isn’t really much here to elaborate on however don’t be tempted to switch targets until the threat is neutralised.  Especially Doomfire Warlocks which I’ll emphasis again below.

-   Sabretusks

Whilst they’ll struggle to survive a shooting volley from anything they can be positioned in such a way to give your opponent pause for thought.  I wouldn’t be awfully confident charging one of our tusks in unless it was a flank and there was at least an augment/hex up on the unit however it does tie the unit up hopefully.  If you’re going to sacrifice one ensure they don’t overrun into another unit preventing a charge (into primary target for example) in your following turn.

-   Gnoblars

Same deal as above however keep in mind a canny general will ensure you simply can’t catch the fast cavalry so keep that in mind.  Ensure your windows/lanes that the fast cav can zoom through are covered from mutually supported charge arcs.

-   Magic (Flock of Doom/Braingobbler/Amber Spear/Curse/Iceshard/Thunderbolt/Fireball etc)

Any magic missile is great here and an amber spear to the flank has the potential to totally annihilate a unit of fast cavalry so worth keeping in mind.  Technically they’ll negate 50% of the damage so it’s just a matter of doubling your attention towards them.

Murderess Prowess

Another blanket rule allowing the Dark Elves to re-roll failed to wound rolls of 1 in combat only.  This makes them a little more ‘hitty’ than usual and their damage output can increase.  A common build is Executioners tooled up, with a well timed Soulblight or not onto our poor Ogres chances are they’ll be wounding on a 2+ whilst re-rolling 1’s.  That’s nearly a 100% wound rate.  Ouch.

Counter with:

-   Magic (Toothcracker, Wildform, Iceshard Blizzard, Curse of the Midnight Wind)
-   Stack the Odds (2/3 vs 1 etc)

Shooting

Dark Elves are considered to be one of the premiere shooting armies around and for good reason.  With the release of the new Wood Elves I believe this has been contested however for sheer volume of fire the Dark Elves certainly come out on top.  Combined with armour piercing and the shots eventually add up however note they’ll be stuck with a multiple shot modifier so they generally are hitting on 5’s and 6’s so it’s not always scary.  Darkshards, Dark Riders and Shades are the common culprits here and you can be sure that the first targets (should!) will be Sabretusks so hide them well or place them in undesirable positions which means the opponent has to commit (lose) a unit to gain the kill.  Backed up with a few Repeater Bolt Throwers and you’ve got a recipe for “Come and get me” type of play.

Lore Access

A new addition to the army was they now have access to all 8 lores.  Obviously this opens the availability of the super mega death spells that we’ve all come to fear including pit of shades, purple sun, dweller’s below etc.  Yes Dark Elves with Lore of Life/Light – just seems wrong doesn’t it?? 

Disadvantages:

Expensive

Elves for the most part are expensive and elite blocks of infantry/cavalry soon add up so Dark Elves (and Elves in general) tend to follow very specialised builds.  Characters unlike other Elven armies can arguably do some heavy lifting with the right builds.  Pegasus Riders for instance tying up Ironblasters before supporting other units in combat can be a real nightmare.

Toughness 3

Another typical elf trait.  T3 all day, every day.  Generally speaking you’ll always be wounding on a 3+ or better in combat.  Of course you’re got to hit with our inferior weapon skill/ballistic skill first but of course this leaves magic wide open.  The variety of magic missiles we have available is pretty good and of course a well timed comet would completely undo the enemy formation.

Little to no armour

Outside of Cold One Knights/Chariots the typical armour save for a Dark Elf is 5+ (Heavy Armour or Light Armour/Shield).  Typically this will be negated or reduced to a 6+ at the best of times for us during impact hits/attacks.

Typical Setups

Doomfire Warlocks

This unit comes in first for attracting the most attention and if you’re unfamiliar with them you’ll soon see why I’ve done this.

Imagine Dark Riders on steroids, equipped with Soulblight and Doombolt, Level 2 wizards, ward save, poison, and they cop D3 wounds instead of using the miscast table.  Yes that’s right, feel free to 6 dice a powered up Soulblight/Doombolt and at most you are guaranteed to cop 3 wounds provided you fail the 4+ ward save.  At 125 points for a unit of 5 you can guarantee you’ll see at least 1-2 units in most armies.  Cheesy gits however will probably run a unit of 10 and then slide characters in there for a vanguarding unit.

The usual principles apply for taking on an enemy light cavalry units, take some pot shots at it first with magic missiles/leadbelchers/shooting of choice and fingers crossed you won’t be engaging them in combat.  Pay attention to them however as a single casting can upset the best plans.  Approach them with extreme prejudice.

Summary:

-   Magic missiles (Fireball, Flock of Doom, Braingobbler, Amber Spear)
-   Shooting (Ironblaster/Pistols/Leadbelchers

Hellebron

I haven’t faced this monstrosity as yet but I’ve heard about it and read about it and although she has no defensive capability whatsoever it’s her offensive capability that will capture everyone’s attention.  She can dish out a potential 10 attacks with poison/ASF (so a high % strike rate again) and those attacks are at S10 whilst re-rolling 1’s to wound.  That’s 3 dead Ogres by my count.  She also grants some crazy super frenzy to her unit of witch elves and provides a dispel boost to her unit.  The downside which can be exploited somewhat is of course frenzy.  Park a sabretusk or gnoblar unit in front of them and you suddenly tell them where they have to go.  It’s a great feeling!    If you’re going to engage the unit you’ll need to throw just about everything at it including MFC, I say this because alongside another unit something should survive in order to hit Hellebron back and hopefully drop her!  It’s a big risk/reward type of scenario however and I’m simply ignore it/shoot it.

If you’re intent on dealing with this unit in combat then simply set up dual/triple charges but firstly ensure you’ve got key components in place.  Firstly a Sabretusk to charge directly at Hellebron herself and secondly a unit on the flank to minimise any damage taken.  Knock back any challenge issued and watch as Hellebron do a massive 2 wounds onto the Sabretusk.  Possibly the unit will be in horde formation with their steadfast broken and they can proceed to get trampled upon.  It’s wishful thinking and perfect world scenario type of stuff however it’s something to keep in mind.

Summary:

-   Ignore/re-direct
-   Shooting to thin the ranks


Dreadlord

The usual Elf Lord character build however they have access to sea dragon cloaks so don’t expect ever to see one without a 1+ armour save mounted, or up to a 2+ on foot.  They make a Cold One Knight unit or even a Dark Rider bus a lot more hitty.  Mount them on either a Dark Pegasus (making him T4) or Black Dragon with Cloak of Twilight/Crown of Command and you’ve got a tough nut to crack.   Great at tying up character/units due to armour save.

Summary:

- Depending on what unit he’s with shoot/charge/profit
- Charge to tie up

Surpeme Sorceress + Bunker

Yes she’s back and with the dagger so she can power up spells at a cost of dread spears normally.  Be careful and choose what spell to stop and don’t get tempted into a game of dispelling more than one spell as  you’ll fail and end up copping way more damage.  Can also be mounted on a dark steed, put into a unit of fast cavalry, vanguard first turn into an optimal position and throw down purple suns.

The usual counter magic applies:

- Dispel Scroll and/or Hellheart
- Maneaters with Sniper/Poison will keep her honest

 Dark Riders

The best fast cavalry in the Warhammer world currently and a 4+ armour save (what?!?!).  These need to be handled with extreme prejudice (see a pattern here with the fast cavalry?) as they can seriously ruin a well laid plan.  They have the ability to do what out Sabretusks do in terms of re-directing and the annoyance factor (a lot more expensive however) but they can also easily drop said Sabretusks with crossbow fire and annoy the crap out of Ogre blocks by chipping off wounds here and there.  Don’t fall into the trap of diverting any of your ‘main’ combat units to deal with these, they can change facing and cause all sorts of headaches all whilst shooting happily away from their steeds.

Summary:

-   Magic missiles
-   Shooting
-   Combat (if close)

Darkshards

Between Dark Riders and these guys that will probably make up the majority of the core allowance.  Whilst they aren’t a huge threat to us the volume of fire they can put out with armour piercing will chip wounds off Ogres as well as hide sorcerers.  Mournfang love these guys as they can take a lot of punishment weathering the storm on the way in before decimating the unit.

Summary:

- Normal anti infantry tactics
- Gorgers

Witch Elves

With no armour and on the expensive side Witch Elves are generally taken with an army that revolves around them (Cauldron in the unit etc) however looking beyond that the sheer volume of destruction they can put out is nothing short of amazing.  They’re dangerous to us simply because of the amount of ASF attacks they dish out and poison, because our armour save is relatively nonexistent outside of MFC expect a lot of casualties.

The usual methods of approaching a ranked infantry unit apply, keep in mind they’re frenzied so can be led around the nose a little whilst you pour all sorts of fire power into them to thin their ranks before sending units in for mop up duty.

Summary:

- Normal anti infantry tactics
- Use frenzy to your advantage

Executioners

They come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, Dark Elves (like all Elves) operate very well on an MSU principle and these units are prime candidates.  Outside of that large blocks with a shrine can be tough to tackle.  At S6 they carve through Ogres and re-roll 1’s however like all T3 troops they’re extremely vulnerable to shooting.  Engage on a flank in combat only.

Summary:

- Normal anti infantry tactics
- Magic missiles
- Shooting attacks

Cold One Knights/Chariots

Somewhat of a less popular choice now however worth a mention.  2+ saves are annoying to deal with and with S4 they can pump out powerful charges along with the Cold One’s S4 attacks as well.  Stupidity of course is a downfall however that rarely comes into play with a BSB re-roll and possibly the general nearby.  The Chariot if ignored can prove to be a thorn in the side with T5.

Summary:

- Shooting (poison)
- Magic missiles (braingobbler, amber spear)
- Charge with MFC, Ironguts etc.

Black Guard

Again they don’t often come up however with Stubborn and ItP they can prove a real problem for Ogres and pin us in place before sending in the heavy hitters.  At S4 they’re underestimated however with Soulblight/Power of Darkness/Mindrazor/Withering effecting them or the unit they’re engaged with they suddenly become very hurtful.

Summary:

- Normal anti infantry tactics
- Magic missiles
- Shooting attacks


Shades

Some of the best Scouts in the game, can have great weapons which make them great at causing some hurt but they can cause some upsets by simply getting in the way and forcing you to deal with them (mosquito effect) and the march blocking effects that they can put into play.  Focus with magic missiles to ignore the -1 to hit modifier for being skirmishers.

Summary

- Magic Missile attacks are optimal for taking out skirmishers

Key Units

The following is a quick summary of what you’d more than likely come across and a very quick counter to each unit.

Dreadlord – (as above)
Supreme Sorceress  – (as above)
Hellebrone – (as above)
Dark Riders – (as above)
Doomfire Warlocks – (as above)
Darkshards – (as above)
Witch Elves – (as above)
Executioners – (as above)
Reaper Bolt Throwers – Good range, dangerous and great at thinning ranks of Ogres.  Can single shot.  2 wounds only however.
Shades – (as above)
Cold Ones – (as above)
Cold One Chariots – (as above)
Corsairs – T3 Infantry sporting a 4+ AS.  High Volume of attacks however low strength.

What to expect:

A basic build will comprise of something like this:

Dreadlord – Fast Cav setup with 1+ re-rollable save
Supreme Sorceress – ward save
Death Hag/Master - BSB
2-3 x 5 Dark Riders
Corsairs/Witch Elves
Dark Shards
2 x 5 Doomfire Warlocks
2 – 4 x Reaper Bolt Throwers

Keep in mind there are monster mash lists and two tower lists floating about and the infamous MSU lists.

What to take:

I don't like to customise armies to fight others however below if a list of what I would feel is optimal/possible units to face off against a Dark Elves list:

Slaughtermaster - magic defense/augmentation
BSB - Usual reasons
Firebelly - Chaff Removal
Ironguts - Bunker characters and a hard hitting block to negate/modify armour
Gnoblars - Dangerous Terrain tests hurt their expensive models
Sabretusks – Funnel that frenzied units where you want to engage/ignore
Mournfang Cavalry - Fast and hard hitting unit with above average impact hits
Maneaters - Poison/flaming attacks can really help swing the battle
Leadbelchers - Every wound helps from a distance, chaff removal
Ironblasters - Armoured counter, auxiliary chariot.
Thundertusks – removes the re-rolls to hit.
Scraplauncher – 4+ to wound isn’t so bad
Stonehorn – I’ve included this as against the right target it can truly wreck face

Magic Lores:

Lore of Death – Character snipes keep everyone honest however I’m not sure it’s the best approach
Lore of Beasts – Increased toughness makes Ogres a bit more resistant to shooting
Lore of Great Maw – Let’s face it, Trollguts will save a tonne of Ogre lives provided you can get it through
Lore of Heavens – as mentioned above I think this has a good disruption utility about it and can force the Dark Elves hand

Seasoning to taste.

The usual 'living' article sense applies here so feel free to comment, add your battle reports and I'll update the opening post.

Battle Reports:

2400 Beastmaster vs Dark Elves

This is really great. Missing the Hydra and Kharibdyss?

Have you wondered if it would be more advisable to start doing normal (larger) Ogre blocks for bunkers instead of Ironguts against T3 high shooty armies? Just gives you more wounds to have when worrying about whittling from harassment fire and since we don't reeeeaaaallly need all those high Str attacks if it would make more sense to have more Wounds on the board writ large. Wood Elves come to mind especially because they dont really have many high T units. When you look at your 2400pt game, you had plenty of wounds on the board, but also no Rare choices. For all comers I would always take at least one IB no matter what, just personal pref though.

The only mistake I ever made, which caused me a loss to Dark Elves, was charging tooled up Executions with my Irongut/SM/Bruiser block because I somehow thought they were a block of old Spearmen. That and the DE player was confused with the Frenzy and thought his unit had Frenzy++ instead of just Frenzy normal. Sigh. Other than that, DE normally do not give me too much trouble. Sure magic is tough to beat, but one dispel scroll and a possible Hellheart and I am hampering magic greatly in hopes to be in combat by Turn 2.

Really enjoy the write ups and the battle reports, keep em coming!

A couple of  things to mention (sorry if I missed them in your writeup):


Cold Ones I think are T4, so make the rider T4 too. Double check that, but it does make a big difference.

Crone Hellebrone doesn't have a natural ward save - but being in a unit with a Cauldron gives her one, a ward save of some kind. I need to double check whether this is 4+, 5+ or 6+ mind - but there's also MR1 on top of it. The main thing she brings is the ability to fend off Monstrous Cav that would otherwise ruin Witch Elves.

Again, not entirely sure on these, but this is what I've been told by someone who runs the Hellebrone list.

Dark Elves come in two varieties these days.  The first is the shooty infantry list, usually dominated by Witch Elves and Executioners.  The second is the Fast Cav character deathstar version.  The former, though weaker against the general field, presents us with more issues, as Dark Elven infantry can beat the pants off of just about any Ogre unit that they engage, with or without support.  Witch Elves in particular just murder anything in the ogre army.  The latter build, while rough for most armies, actually has issues against a moderately shooty ogre army.

In general against Dark Elves, longer range shooting and Lore of Heavens are game winners.  Little things like Curse of the Midnight Wind or Ice Shard can dork up their combat math a lot.  Dropping a Comet in their backfield can force them to commit to combats earlier than they wish.  Gunning up the rank and file units can make engaging them more favorable.  Outside those small positives, Dark Elves are a very rough matchup for Ogres.  This is not surprising, as they are (in my view) the strongest army in the game.

Thanks for the comments/additions guys, please keep them coming and I'll update the OP accordingly!

Ironguts definitely aren't worth their price against DE; there's just too much attrition.  We need Bull units to provide the extra wounds.  Since Cold Ones are the only unit with high armor, leadbelchers and ironblasters can deal with them sufficiently.  Tool up at least one character to deal with the combat character; my recommendation is a SM with GW, ToP, and Trickster's Helm. 

The Thundertusk, sadly, isn't that viable since DE units have eternal hatred in addition to ASF.  Just face the fact that they're gonna reroll to hit.

If you don't take any Ironguts, then Soul Blight and walls of 1+ armor characters are going to make you a sad panda.

Isn't it only Black Guard who have Eternal Hatred? Not that the average Ogre would know...

Plus, Ironguts are too useful for other armies, so it's more a case of working where to apply them unless you're a dirty tailor...

Cold Ones I think are T4, so make the rider T4 too. Double check that, but it does make a big difference.

I don't think you use the mount's toughness unless it is monstrous cav... The phrase "attacks are assumed to be made at the rider" come to mind.

Ah, after double checking the book, you appear to be correct! This is the only case I can think of with a T4 non-Monstrous Mount, so it never occurred to me it'd be different. Derp.

Playing two games against DEs this past weekend, I tabled both of them. Now I don't believe their lists were optimal (horse of Black Guard in one and Hellebron on a manticore in the other list???) so I wasn't facing challenging lists. I've yet to face the Two Towers or avoidance lists, but so far DEs are not a problem for me.

Ah, after double checking the book, you appear to be correct! This is the only case I can think of with a T4 non-Monstrous Mount, so it never occurred to me it'd be different. Derp.

But it applies to peg-heroes : ) Also with 3 wounds I recall.

Don't forget the PegMaster build that is very effective.

Master
Peg
Lance
Cloak of Twilight

This equals a whole bunch of hurt on the charge.

One thing I found vs. Witch Elves is the Mournfangs can hold them up with the 2+ AS and Parry negates their poison quite a lot.

The OTS item may also be worth considering to negate some of the DE character builds.

One thing I found vs. Witch Elves is the Mournfangs can hold them up with the 2+ AS and Parry negates their poison quite a lot.

The OTS item may also be worth considering to negate some of the DE character builds.

This. My mourners charged that horde and took only two wounds. Note that if Hellebron is in them, her S10 will wreck your day.

Even average witches will wreck your day.  Every single DE player I have ever seen runs that unit with the Razor Standard.  So, even 5 wide witches will pump out 9ish wounds before you even swing, ultimately costing you one mournfang, and we are talking about a 250ish cost unit here.  A Horde (more likely) will (against a 4 wide MFC unit) pump out 50 (!) attacks that ultimately put out 22ish AP wounds, killing at least half the unit before it picks up the dice.  I guess its better than sending an Ogre infantry block in to die, but its far from ideal.

My dumb trick for dealing with Witches is to solo charge my SM (GW, Tricksters Helm, 4+ Ward) into them.  The combination of poison immunity, T5, and them having to reroll successful wounds makes the SM virtually immortal against witch elves.  Killing 3-4 a turn and not taking wounds back leaves me with a very makeable break test and bottles up one of the most dangerous units in the army for most of the game.

The character builds for DE basically come in two flavors.  The horse guys with 1+ armor and hard hitting weapons that sit in the fast cav busses, and the peg guy.  The peg guy will usually have a cloak of twilight and might sometimes be a wizard.  Cannons are your best bet against him, but if there is a cauldron or bolt throwers, you probably want to skunk those first.

One thing I found vs. Witch Elves is the Mournfangs can hold them up with the 2+ AS and Parry negates their poison quite a lot.

The OTS item may also be worth considering to negate some of the DE character builds.

You guys are lucky with Witches. Whenever I see them there's a particular crone sat in them that snaps the Mournfang unit over her knee. No idea how to cope with her here...

Okies I better respond to the points made regarding Mournfangs.

1. Do not charge the Mournfangs into the Front of a horde of Witches (try to flank it).

2. Hellebron changes the whole witch elf unit do not charge a unit containing her. Re direct this unit and avoid it.

In these situations either re direct the units with Sabres or shoot and Magic the horde down to size before engaging.

Run firebellies! Flame Cage, Flaming Cloak, Fireball even Piercing Blots all can do good damage. And woe be upon the witch elf unit surrounded by a flame cage that thinks you sabretusk is pissing them off just a little too much...

I did have some hilarity one game where I got Flame Cage on a block of elves and followed it up with wind blast.  That trick only works once, though, hehe.

I did have some hilarity one game where I got Flame Cage on a block of elves and followed it up with wind blast.  That trick only works once, though, hehe.

Nice combo lol

Iron blasters target priorities
1. Cauldron
2. Cauldron
3. Cauldron (jokes aside this needs to be disposed of before the attached DE's reach combat).

After this goes down the Monsters depending on the threat level, usually the flyers first.

I did have some hilarity one game where I got Flame Cage on a block of elves and followed it up with wind blast.  That trick only works once, though, hehe.

With the witches being frenzy I guess you could also try to bait them with a flank charge with eg 3 ogres that will loose combat but not die (hopefully) and then see the witches having to run after the fleeing ogres. Then flame cage also sets off : )

What is a DE power build like? Can anyone post a sample list?

I did have some hilarity one game where I got Flame Cage on a block of elves and followed it up with wind blast.  That trick only works once, though, hehe.

With the witches being frenzy I guess you could also try to bait them with a flank charge with eg 3 ogres that will loose combat but not die (hopefully) and then see the witches having to run after the fleeing ogres. Then flame cage also sets off : )

They will die to a man (ogre), but the required overrun on the charge can really out them out of position. You want to reform next turn? Flame cage them again. Burn, baby, burn.

Dark Elves were my first army, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that Witch Elves with a Cauldron will absolutely puree just about anything Ogres can put on the table.

Hellebron also has a talisman that adds a +4 to dispel any spells that target her unit.  Assuming that the dark elf player you're up against isn't a complete dimwit, he'll be dispelling that flaming cage - or any other spells you decide to chuck at his Witches - at a +6. If he can somehow find the points to fit in a level 4 sorceress, you're looking at a +8...that's going to make it tough to get those spells through.

What is a DE power build like? Can anyone post a sample list?

Didn't see this /\ until after my first post.  Not what I would call "optimized" but this list will definitely dish out the hurt...here's a 3000 pt list I've planned to run in the next couple weeks:

Hellebron on CoB - 500 pts

Supreme Sorceress (Lvl 4 - Shadow) (Sac Dagger) - 245 pts

Khainite Assassin (Dark Venom) - 110 pts

Peg Master BSB (Armor of Destiny, SDC, Halberd) - 203 pts

30 Witch Elves (Musician, Standard [Razor Standard]) - 395 pts <here goes Hellebron/CoB>

25 Dreadspears (Musician, Standard) - 245 pts <here goes the sorceress>

5 Dark Riders (Mus) - 110 pts

5 Dark Riders (Mus) - 110 pts

5 Shades (GW) - 90 pts

5 Shades (GW) - 90 pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70 pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70 pts

10 Execs (Draichmaster) - 130 pts

War Hydra (fiery breath) - 180 pts

5 Warlocks - 125 pts

5 Warlocks - 125 pts

Like I said, maybe not a 'power list' and it doesn't feature a lot of the 'shootiness' that others here have referred to, but it does bring the pain nonetheless.

What is a DE power build like? Can anyone post a sample list?

Here's something I'd like to take to the next no comp tournament I go to.

2500 pts-

Dreadlord on peg; 1+ save, Ogre Blade, Black Amulet

Sorceress level 4 on Steed; Death, Scroll, Dragonbane Gem

Master on peg; BSB, 1+ save, 4+ ward, lance

Master on peg; 1+ save, 4+ ward, lance

Master on peg, 1+ save, lance, Cloak of Twilight

3 units of 6 Dark Riders; Shields, Crossbows, Champs (banners if I need fortitude)

18 Witch Elves; full command, flaming

4 bolt throwers

2 units of 5 Shades

6 Warlocks

5 Warlocks