3 Man Ogre Missilie Units

Hi guys,
I've been looking at my 9 man ironfist unit and would like to know if any of you guys have tried 3 Ogre unit in a conga line with only the champion in front...

Impact hit +2S, only attack the champion with no carry over wounds, then 6 attacks. If he dies??
I was thinking running my 9 ironfists in 3 units of these to block and chaff clear...

The impact hits gains the rank bonus to their strength. The way I read your post, it seems that a 3-ogre unit (1 wide and 3 deep) would also get the bonus, but that's not the case. In stead rock them 3 wide and get the S5 impact hits from the man eaters.

You could rock a 3 man eater unit being stubborn with a champ in front but if you spend the point why not just get more man eaters? They are an awesome combat unit. Stubborn+poison with a combat character is juicy : ) Alternative use a very deep gnoblar unit (50 gnoblars cost less than the above combo)

I have seen people use 3 ogre darts but not use how useful they turn out to be.

A 3 man Ogre unit isn't winning you any battles, so you might as well go Ogres over Maneaters for that purpose, since they're the same toughness, wounds and they have a parry save.  Odds are your single Maneater + support isn't going to kill what's fighting you anyway.

Big deep Gnoblar Trapper units are a good way to go to do the same thing, and you're Steadfast, forcing difficult terrain tests and taking a stand and shoot.

My question is just ogres not the maneaters.
I'm running in my current 2500 list for core....

9 Ironguts
All the trimmings with Slaughtermaster, Bruiser and Firebelly
9 Ironfists
All the trimmings

I'm having problems with chaff and fast cav so I was thinking of breaking down Ironfists to 3 units of ogre missiles with a champion in each. I was thinking it maybe a good idea to try for combat res.
If I get the charge then impact hit, combat they can only do wounds on champion since he is the only one base contact so three max with no wounds carried over to unit.
Then I get my 6 on unit and stomp....

I was just wondering if anyone had tried this tactic....

My question is just ogres not the maneaters.
I'm running in my current 2500 list for core....

9 Ironguts
All the trimmings with Slaughtermaster, Bruiser and Firebelly
9 Ironfists
All the trimmings

I'm having problems with chaff and fast cav so I was thinking of breaking down Ironfists to 3 units of ogre missiles with a champion in each. I was thinking it maybe a good idea to try for combat res.
If I get the charge then impact hit, combat they can only do wounds on champion since he is the only one base contact so three max with no wounds carried over to unit.
Then I get my 6 on unit and stomp....

I was just wondering if anyone had tried this tactic....

Ok, just to make sure we are clear:

You are talking about running several units of 3 ogres as a heavy chaff unit with a champ in each one, correct?

I actually would argue against the champ.  The 3 man ogre chaff does work quite well when matched up against other chaff.  However, the champion is actually more of a liability than an asset.  If you get into combat with anything that has a champion or a character, you have just spent 10 points to remove a large part of your combat force from hitting the unit.

This is more of a weakness for ogres than it is for most other armies.  Consider this: a 3 man ogre dart vs a 15 man gnoblar unit.  This is more than 100 points going against roughly the cost of 1 ogre.  The gnoblars challenge, and your champ has to accept (since he would lose his attacks otherwise).  The gnoblar champ dies, which denies your stomp.  You can get overkill, sure, but that is fewer gnoblars dying.  Depending on rolls, the gnoblars maintain steadfast and keep you stuck in combat.

Meanwhile, if you didn't have the champ, you get to direct all of your attacks into the unit.  They can't hide in a challenge, and you now have a much better chance of breaking steadfast.

As a general rule of thumb, I only take a champ in a unit if I am planning on placing a character in that unit.  If a super killy lord challenges, I'd rather toss an irongut champ in the way instead of my super expensive slaughtermaster.

My logic of thinking was to use champion as a one round wound shield.

Say I charge some elves. They are going first, but thanks to champion ( if like you say they don't have a champion like most I play ) they cannot hit all of the unit thanks to champion rules. Then say he dies, I then have my 6 attacks from other 2 ogres. But only giving 3 wounds max.
Also I could give them extra hand weapon not ironfist for extra attacks???

I think I will try both, for my next game. A unit with champion and a unit without.

Ogre darts are great. Ironfists and champ. Has a learning curve but if chaff is a problem for you use the 3 man ogre units.

I have used them with great success.

I am rather sure the champ doesnt need to answer a challenge issued - the wording is different than for characters, so he might not need to move back. But check up on that : )

For fast cav the ogre dart has limits: They dont get to stomp and the opponent may flee (or even double flee) taking you no where.

Sabretusk packs are faster have higher Ini (which wont matter against elves) and cheaper. They are not the same as 3-ogres but 1-2 helps a fast moving army from being blocked up. Also the premium is lead belchers to shoot away chaff or a firebelly as you have listed. I try to go for a lvl2 and hope for one decent spell and always defaults to a fireball. Otherwise rubyring has it's merits for small stuff and skirmishers.

Have you considered that the army might benefit from more drops in the deployment? I know that might lose you the +1 roll off to go first but the 2 blocks of ironguts are heavy investments and it's a given that your characters end up there, so it will quickly be obvious to your opponent how your army should be redirected and kept out of combat. I know this has nothing to do with ogre darts but if chaff if an issue, then also looking into your deployment tactic might help : )

Good luck!

Unit champs don't incur any penalties for declining challenges. They can fight as normal.

I'm taking 2x3 XHW ogres w. muso to a 2400 tourney in two weeks. I use them like detachments for my main blocks and in my test games they have been ace.

Sorry, missed this thread when I posted my question.

What do you guys use these dart units for other than chaff hunting? I presume they'd be decent mage torpedoes?

Sorry, missed this thread when I posted my question.

What do you guys use these dart units for other than chaff hunting? I presume they'd be decent mage torpedoes?

Not really torpedoes. They most likely wont strike before the charged unit so they might take wounds before striking. 1-2 wounds are fine as you wont lose attacks here. Also impact hits and stomp as hitting as shooting attacks so you cannot direct them at the wizard. 2 wide with one ogre-dude in the back can work and with ahw dishes out 11 attacks, 2 impact hits and maybe 2 stomps.

If you charge a shooting unit with a wizard bunkering there will also be the stand'n'shoot which may hurt too or the unit flees (have a sabretusk nearby if you are afraid of them fleeing to double charge it : )

I use a 3-pack once in a while for redirection and anti-chaff but more for a defensive style of play.

I'm thinking 1 x 1 x 1 with a champ in front, so max wounds the enemy can do is 3 wounds, then you still get all your attacks as the back two step up even In the event of a champ death.

So, I think these points have been already made, but let's just tally them up for a second...

1. Impact hits only get bonus from full ranks, so a 1x3 formation ("dart") only does Str4 impact hit(s).

2. Champs do not have to accept challenges, it says in the BRB although I can't remember the page...

Now, the other point that hasn't been brought up yet...

3*. Three Bulls with Ironfists and a champ = 106 points. Three independent Sabretusks = 63 points altogether.

As far as points are concerned, Sabres are the best bang-for-buck value. Now, if you're having trouble keeping them on the board via arrows or terror-bombs, keep in mind that the Bull-chaff only needs to lose 3 wounds for a panic test; granted, their LD7 with possible bubble influence is better than LD4 no-help, but if they panic you're losing more than 5 times the point-values if the Bulls run over a Sabretusk.

Granted, for anti-chaff/counter-chaff tactics, I think running this is adequate, maybe one or two units. They can fight smaller units relatively alright, and if you care to give them a magical buff during a key fight they have a good chance of actually winning a combat or two. But, for just plan regular chaff purposes, they're a lot more expensive for something that is only slightly better than what the Sabretusks can do.

I actually ran one unit of three Bulls (w/AHW and champ, for a whopping 13 attacks!) in my most recent tournament, and I found them to be alright, but not the most amazing... But, the three opponents I went up against didn't have much in the way of chaff for the Bulls to go after

never considered running them like that. Looking at it, I wonder if its a lot of points that will do not a lot vs ranked units unless you have masses of dart units.

enemy
3 ranks + std +3 wounds max for the unit
dart
1 impact+1 stomp+7 wounds max (more likely 2 or 3 after saves etc).

keen to give it a try though.

I'm also currently running the three sabres in my list. But I'm a newish player and was thinking of other ways to deal with chaff rather than using a unit of 2 mournfang like I have been.

Where I play there is loads of elf players, high, dark wood you name it. The idea of using these units was to help out on deployment and block chase other chaff. I've added a unit of maneaters to deal with fast cav using pistols.

106 ponts in my eyes is a good little investment for chaff. Yes I can use gnoblars for 25 or 50 but I've had no look with them as they don't fit my play style ( to slow ). I've cut them down to 2 units of 3 with champ and saved a few points and used them on my maneaters.

if you want to max attacks then go 2x2...this block can still direct all attacks at the same 20mm base model. Ahw works here too and most elven shooting wont be too hard, if you are worried go for ironfists for a 5+.
It will get expensive but they can take some beating and still hit back just be careful with static combat res!

For darts I have also tried a 3-pack of sabretusks... it didnt work well. too expensive for what they do! A 2-pack can all attack the same mage but getting two wounds is dicey.

Use chaff guts if that's all the models you have, they can do the job alright but..

3 ironguts with champ is only 10 points cheaper than 2 mournfang.. and fang are faster and more resilient. If you want the guts as a back up can opener then go mournfang.

Guess what else is fast.. yhetees. at about the same cost they are M7, swiftstride, I4. Almost as fast as mournfang and they bring magic attacks in case you face vampires. Your opponents will get a laugh and may be surprised.

Leadbelchers.. they don't even need to charge.. they can shoot up the fast cav and cause panic.

Gnoblars are not what you are looking for. If you want to sit back and shoot leadbelchers and cannons and heavens magic then by all means bring hundreds of gnoblars.

I'm thinking 1 x 1 x 1 with a champ in front, so max wounds the enemy can do is 3 wounds, then you still get all your attacks as the back two step up even In the event of a champ death.

How would the wounds from the Champion not carry over unless it occurred in a challenge?

How would the wounds from the Champion not carry over unless it occurred in a challenge?

This.

Attacks need to be allocated to characters separately from their units, but champs don't work that way. A champ can only be picked out if they are fighting in a challenge or get hit by a template and fail the look out sir. Otherwise they count as part of the rank and file, although they are the last to die.

Further complicating things, if you charge your 'dart' into a unit and call a challenge with the champ, the other player can simply refuse the challenge and have their champ swing on the rank and file anyways. If you are trying to pick out a wizard in the unit, they can just refuse the challenge and hide in the back, or just make way away from you for the same result.

Either way, the champ does not act in the way you described.

Lastly your impact hits only increase in strength by your 'rank bonus' not by how many ogres are behind you, so you need to run at least 3 wide to have any bonus at all (otherwise you could actually make ogre torpedoes 7 deep for a Str 10 impact hit! Not too combat effective otherwise, but hilarious as heck!).

How would the wounds from the Champion not carry over unless it occurred in a challenge?

This.

Attacks need to be allocated to characters separately from their units, but champs don't work that way. A champ can only be picked out if they are fighting in a challenge or get hit by a template and fail the look out sir. Otherwise they count as part of the rank and file, although they are the last to die.

Check out page 93 of the rulebook under champs and close combat.

It is a legal tactic I just don't see it being very useful gingerdrew. Mainly depends on what your charging into but the combats those little ogre units can win its probably better to stay 3 wide and get the extra impact hits.