Seed of Rebirth

Good Afternoon Stronghold,

I have a question regarding the Seed of Rebirth and Trollguts. If a character carrying the SoR has Trollguts successfully cast upon him, do the two combine to give a 3+ save or can only one be chosen?

Argument for combining the two
Please see my thread on the Warpflame Special Rule:
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=28054.msg366281#msg366281

Argument against combining the two

On page 44 of The Warhammer Rule-Book, it states that:

"Note that different ward saves cannot be combined to increase a model's chances of saving. If a model has more than one save, simply use the best."

There are 4 exceptions to this rule that I know of:
(1) Mark of Tzeentch;
(2) Third Eye of Tzeentch (in a rough manner of speaking;
(3) Rolling an 11 on the Eye of the Gods; AND
(4) Rolling a 10 on a Daemonic Instability test.

All of these appear to be available to the followers of chaos!

My Opinion

- The quoted text specifically talks about Ward Saves only and makes no reference to armour or regeneration saves.

- Armour saves are combined.

I therefore believe two should combine. Your thoughts?

Badmarsh

Valoraxe, thanks for your reply. I've read the rulebook (in particular page 74), there is no mention of either combining regeneration saves or choosing the best one!

I don't have the rule book in front of me (work), but I distinctly remember reading that regen is like a ward save, which would mean to me that you could not combine them, since the item says it gives you regen, and the spell says the same.

Also, neither say "gives regen, or adds +1" like warpflame does. I think this is going to be the deciding factor, especially if regen says it works or is like a ward save.

(hope that all made sense) 

Regeneration is a ward save, and should be treated as such. The only difference regen has to a normal ward save is that it's negated by flaming attacks for a phase.

Warpflame is a unique rule, as are the other few examples listed. Don't let the unique rules fool you into changing the meaning of the BRB rules!

If you have a Seed of Rebirth, it's a 6++, unless you cast Trollguts, which would make it a 4++. Also, note the wording of the spell, it says that it gives a 4++ save; it doesn't say, "gives a 4++ regen, or a +3 to any current regen". Nor does the Seed of Rebirth say, "gives a 6++ regen, or a +1 to any current regen". Those aren't in the rules, so it wouldn't work that way.

...Although, that'd be nice, and would probably make the Seed of Rebirth much more useful But no, sorry, regen's don't mix!

Damn! Joined the party too late. ^ that basically. +1 to everything Saz said.

G_H

Regeneration is a ward save, and should be treated as such. The only difference regen has to a normal ward save is that it's negated by flaming attacks for a phase.

While I agree with the rest of your post (ie, that regen does not stack unless explicitly stated), this part is wrong.

Regen is NOT a ward save.  It is an optional alternative to a ward save.  Differences include how these options treat KB/HKB, Flaming Attacks, the OTS, and effects that explicitly improve one option but not the other (for example:  Mark of Tzeentch or Warpflame).

This is an important distinction, especially if you like to cast Trollguts on your Gutstar containing a Tyrant with the OTS.

-Snark

I'm pretty sure that regen does count as a ward save.  It is similar to parry: a ward save with extra rules text.  Your unit or character just uses whatever the best save is at the time.  You only get to use one during the "ward save" part of damage rolls.

Lets say you have a 5+ ward and a 4+ regen.  If you take a normal hit, you get a 4+ save during your ward save rolls.  If you take a normal hit, you get a 5+ ward instead.  If you take a shield while still having the above saves, then you are wasting your points, since you will never use the 6+ ward from the shield when you have a 5+ available.

If you have a 4+ ward and a 4+ regen, you will always be using the 4+ ward, regardless of what they hit you with.

If they have OTS, then you are going to be rerolling your save if you are in base contact no matter which form of save you are using.

The only difference between regen and a ward save is that regen has a weakness inherently built into it, allowing it to be cheaper.  This is why there isn't a spell that gives a 4+ ward save anywhere.

Snark is right here.

Wardsave is not the same as Regeneration.
The OTS only works against successful made wardsaves in B2B to the model equiped with it.
Except when in challenge. Then it works only to the other model in the challenge.

OTS cannot be used against Successfull Regeneration saves...never.

Biggie...

Snark is right here.

Wardsave is not the same as Regeneration.
The OTS only works against successful made wardsaves in B2B to the model equiped with it.
Except when in challenge. Then it works only to the other model in the challenge.

OTS cannot be used against Successfull Regeneration saves...never.

Huh.  I'll need to doublecheck with the BRB, but if that is true, it means I have been playing wrong for a while now.

It makes sense, though.  A ward save is like a magical forcefield.  The OTS causes the forcefield to flicker, and the blade of realities cuts straight through it.  Meanwhile, a regen save is literally the model healing back the damage instantly. You use fire to cauterize the wound and prevent the regen from working.

I think I'm still right in that it is always the better of the two that you get to apply (meaning no double dipping), but the fact that those items do nothing to it means that I now need to put my oldblood in a unit with a flaming banner to ensure that it can kill everything.

Mr C – I’ve read..... re-read and .... re-re-read the rulebook! I can only find reference to regeneration on page 74. Unfortunately it doesn’t state what happens if you have more than one regeneration save.

The two other saves (armour and ward) are polar opposites when it comes to combining. Armour saves combine whereas ward saves don’t! Both, however are capped at 2+

Sazel/Gnoblar Herder – I can see how regeneration can be seen as being almost like a ward save, however, GW wording has caused problems before in the past, like the 5th edition Ogre Kingdoms lore “acting like remains in play spells” but not being RIP.  This caused debates about being able to dispel RIP spells by using power dice instead of dispel dice.

Snark/BigOgre – agreed, "immunity" to TOTS and "vulnerability" to HKB and flaming attacks are the main difference between a ward save and regeneration.

LawGnome – great description of the magical forcefield, I’m having visions of a new Star Wars movie! Can we see an Ogre equivalent of Ewan McGregor or Darth Maul?