Ogre Almanac - Ogre Culture (2006)

I know, I know!  The whole project is about Ogre culture! 

But here I mean the 'laymen' definition of culture... no matter how it might take form, Ogres have arts and games like any other group.  So here we go:  from song and dance, to arts and crafts... stories, games, sports, 'friendly' competition... costume and club decoration: this discussion is about what Ogres do to preserve and transmit their culture and what kinds of activities they engage in during free time.  Dig in!

from the artwork I think we can say that piercings seem to play a big part in ogre culture - even the sarbretusks, the gorger and the forge world bull rhinox models have them and I, for one, would not like to be the gut administering such decoration to any of the above!

so what purpose do the piercings serve?

decoration - its possible that this is just for fun, but most of them seem to be bits of bone and the like, that seems more like snacks to me....

status symbols? - "I'm big and brave enough to stuff this big bone through my man-boob - and I'll do it to this sabretusk too!"

that kinda sounds like ogre-thought to me!  I'd guess that the piercing give status or represent it (piercings being given for outstanding acts of ogrehood or showing the favour of the maw - expaining why the butchers have so many).

I get the sense that ogres have a whole lot of extra 'dead' skin without much feeling on many parts of their body also, so storing things 'in' the skin (knives and fuse lighting sticks are seen on models) and piercing is maybe a less involved process than it might be in other species.  As for piercing your sabertusks?  Yeah... that is burley...

Ogre Songs: Crude and loud. Those that don't consist of purely shouting are likely short rhyming songs that alter slightly with each telling and are used to remember things.

Ogre Dance: No. Although I can imagine an Ogre version of the "Hokey Pokey".

Ogre Art: Varies. I imagine the "mountain" tribes would have simple tribal cavepaintings, as much writing as art. Those influenced a bit more by other cultures would probably have crude imitations of their art. Ogre Lisa, Venus de Ogre, etc. Their tattoo artists would probably vary too, from the more simple "slap a bit of blood on there and fiddle about with it" to the tribes with more complex symbols.

Stories seem to me like they would either be an exaggerated account of a some favourite battles or Ogre legends, such as old stoneguts who ate the sun (in the army book). Art in cave paintings and trophy decoration I guess. Games/ sports are probably see who can catch the most prey, eating, drinking, maw pit fights, guts out competitions, gnoblar hurling, maybe watching an experienced Ogre fight some monster of a kind? I see most of it being about showing off to each other to gain tribal position and respect. Oh, and of course eating competitions. Probably some sort of gambling also, whether by crude dice or betting on the winner of a fight.

Ogre Music:
The book says something to the effect that Ogres don't have musicians: they are more impressed by who can shout the loudest (don't have my book on me to check exact statement, but it's something to that effect).
This doesn't strike me as true, though. Our understanding of human tribal development suggests that music, singing and dance develop alongside language.
Ogre Music would be crude, non-notated, and probably highly improvisational. It would also be 'sacred', rather than 'secular'.

Music in Ogre culture would be generated through a gradual ritualisation of certain patterns of sound. These may be patterns of shouts at different pitches or durations, or different rhythms pounded on a large log. Regardless, these patterns are seen as having spiritual meaning by Ogre society. These come to be used in an almost liturgical sense in Feasts, and rituals devoted to the Great Maw. The first Ogre musicians would have been Butchers, although the practice may have spread.

In terms of sophistication and instrumentation, these patterns would be passed down as given knowledge among an Ogre tribe, and the patterns would be freely combined/juxtaposed/reordered according to the requirements of the ritual, or the taste of the performer. Each tribe would have its own 'set' of musical patterns, although there would be a large body of 'common' material. Instrumentation (other than shouting) would be a tribe-specific thing. As an example, the didjeridu which is commonly associated with the music of Australian indigenous tribes, is only actually used by a handful of tribes in Arnhem Land. The vast majority of Aboriginal tribes do not use one. In terms of Ogres, I could see perhaps different kinds of percussion instruments being used by different tribes. Some wouldn't use instruments at all, and some would shout at all.

Ogre singing, would probably sound like a big low rumble. It would be pitched, but not very accurately. Pitch would function more in terms of its contour, rather than absolute intervallic structures. Rhythm would probably be of similar sophistication to early Medieval manuscripts, which contain notes of durations Maxima (without measure - held note) Longa (long note) and Breve (short note). The music therefore consists of long and short notes (roughly in a ratio of 2:1) with held notes at the cadence points. This would under no circumstances, however, be understood anything but intuitively by the Ogre populace. They would sing this way because that's how music goes, not because they have consciously determined that music goes that way.

Ogre dance
Dance would have developed alongside music. In most so-called 'primitive' cultures, the concept of music is undifferentiated from the concept of dance. All music is dance music. I suspect that in Ogre culture, both of these concepts would also be undifferentiated from the concept of fighting.
Dance would have developed in the same way as music - certain movements become culturally significant, and become ritualised in 'performances' in honour of the Great Maw. Given the importance of blood and eating in the worship of the Maw, I expect that these dances would often degenerate into fighting, to the beat of the drums.

Ogre art
The fact that Ogres have a kind of pictogram written language suggests that they are quite visually advanced. Their art is probably painted in mud or blood on cave walls, and is probably largely narrative, relaying Ogre history. Young Ogres are probably shown these pictures, which record in detail the previous important Ogres, their Big Names, and who ate whom.
Again, this would probably be tied to fighting, and spend a long time detailing the many victories of the Ogre tribe in battle with other tribes, sky titans, thinlings, etc.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts that spring immediately to mind...

Ogre Dance: No. Although I can imagine an Ogre version of the "Hokey Pokey".

"you put this knight's arm in
the knight's arm out
in, out, in, out
and suck the marrow out"

something like that?

Music:  Shouting, either individually or perhaps chorally.  A variety of systems could be in place for choral singing... singer/response style seems viable in a 'simon' sort of way...

At a feast:
-Bellower 'Arrrg!'
-Other Ogres 'Arrrg!'
-Bellower 'Arrrg! Arrrg! Blahh!'
-Other Ogres 'Arrg! Arrg! Blaah!'
Etc...

I suspect some primitive instramentation as well... we know ogres have horns (to signal yhetees at the least, probably also as long range signals in the mountains).  I would concider primitive drums as well... log style drums maybe, less edible parts there... or just simple rythmic beating of clubs on stones and logs.  Other 'natural' instrumentation sounds good too... clapping, belly slapping, stomping, etc...

Singing would probably be a mostly feast time activity... in fact most ogre 'culture' probably exists in that narrow margin of feast time, the hunt for food would be pretty all consuming.  Although in retrospect I can see ogres doing a little 'march singing' military style...

-Bellower 'I don't know but its been said!'
-Other Ogres 'I don't know but its been said!'
-Bellower 'The best elf meat is in his head!'

Art:  The existance of cave painting appears clear, though whether it exists for purely artistic reasons or is tied intrinsically to story telling (and maybe primitive sympathetic magic?) is not currently known.  However, since I would guess storytelling is one of the biggest cultural activities that probably places storytelling pictograms in some station of value.

We have talked about body modification and decoration... piercings, tatoos, ritual scarification, and body paint all seem to be pretty prominent forms of expression.  Ogres seem pretty body-centric anyways...

Other art that springs to mind is trophy collections: maneaters especially but I'd guess all ogres own a little cache of trophies ranging from the obvious spoils of war to teeth and horns of large things eaten.

Dance:  I really don't see ogres dancing too much, they have other physical activities (wrestling) that fill this sort of need... however the subtle erotic art of female Ogre belly dancing is not soon forgotten by any observer...

Storytelling:  Major cultural activity #1 in my book... boasting of personal or familial accomplishments, telling of tribal and racial history, exemplifying ogre virtues by tales of heros... after or during a great feast I could see a great many tales being told.  Of course, there are a fair number of signs that point to ogre humor being a bit... crude... so comedy tales of the dwarf who lived in an Ogres stomach, or the Irongut that swolled the rhinoxen whole, or perhaps the Tyrant who ate a green dragon head and had gas the rest of his life are probably also told with regularity.  In fact... back in music I think 'dirty lymric' is probably another form of ogre music.

Contests/Sports:  I think this is the area we can, as a group, expound on the most.  One key to ogre culture is the increadibly competitive heirarchy of social class... contests and sports are a valuable way to adjust this hierarchy without expending too many resources, alleviate tension caused by the competitiveness of it, and perhaps most importantly judge the strength of a rival ogre without fatal consequences would be very important.

Most ogre sports, in my mind, are single-participant.  While it is true, ogres do have a close 'band of brothers' that they tend to work with, ultimetly they are competing with them as well... team sports would be very very limited.  Perhaps collective demonstrations of strength... tug of war and that sort of thing... but otherwise very individualized.  Tests of strength (lifting heavy things, carrying heavy things far distances, breaking strong things, throwing things far), endurance (surviving things thrown at you, running far, extreme piercings), and gustatory might (eating inedible things, eating lots and lots of stuff {a popular item would be 'gnobler sausages' in rolls, called gnob dogs}, and maybe taste discrimination {'Nope, you wrong Og!  It is giant kidney, not yhetee kidney!'}.

Here's an idea: the Ogre title of Firemaster, as well as the obvious connotations it has, also stands as a title of a Tribal Bard. These Bards both provide the fire and entertain the Tribe when they gather round it. A Bard would be expected to know all the legends of the Ogres off by heart and recite them for amusement of the Tribe. Also forthcoming may be crude comedies describing things Ogres find ridiculous or amusing. Considering the brutish and slightly sadistic nature of Ogres, tradgedies would not exist, as they would only laugh at another's misfortune. Also the Firemaster may be expected to create epics for the Tyrant of his Tribe, which are essentially formalised boasting. In order that a new Tyrant does not take revenge on the Firemaster for praising his predecessor, the Firemaster would be inviolate to a certain degree. Finally, another job in which the Firemaster depends on his inviobility (is this right?): criticism, or to use the Celtic term, satirising. These would be formal insults with which a Firemaster may repremand an Ogre who has broken one of the few taboos of their society. These would be regarded as curses by the superstitious Tribesbulls, bringing them ill luck. One of the greatest Ogre condemnations would be " May your Gut shrink!".

Just one, non-sensical thought: maybe Ogres could have insult contests, 2 Ogres yelling abuse at one another, and the one who attacks his opponent first is the loser.

All ideas are open to suggestion.

An ogre... outside of the social jockying of his fellows... who has rights, privalages, and expectations beyond his peers... who needs to have a good memory and be reletively knowledgable... and can say negative things about powerful ogres without fear of reprocussion?  Sounds like a butcher's job to me, butchers as storytellers/lore masters would certianally expand their active role in society.

Gnoblar fights. (Like dog fights etc) and General Gnoblar games where you bet on a Gnoblar to win.
Eating contests. Cooking. Hunting for sport. Arm wrestling. Pit Fighting.

I think its that kind of thing really.

Ogre theatre where they retell stories in that way. Hrmm, dunno if this is planned for another almanac but-

what do Ogre Women do other than mate?

Ogre women is my favorite topic, it is what started the almanac basically... I have a good picture worked out for ogre females, when I get a chance to type it up I will post it and see what everyone thinks...

But the "basics" are...

~Females hunt when males hunt, in groups of females the same way that males do.
~Females assign a certian number of thier members to look after and nurse whelps during each hunt.
~Not having the need to involve themselves in the hierarchy the way males do, they have more time to do crafts and things... with the assistance of the gnoblers they do the leather-working, basic metal craft, etc. needed for the tribe
~They spend about half their time pregnant, though they function normally until the last stages of their pregnancy, in which they return to "home camp" to give birth and rejoin the tribe after the next feast or other return visit to "home base".
~They mate the vast majority of the time with the Tyrant, and probably slyly on the side the Butchers, though a particularly great display of power may earn a Bruiser or other powerful ogre a "night in the cow`s den" (example: earning a big name)
~Apart from mating, they live with but seperate in most ways from the males... sleeping in different places, eating seperately, etc... Tyrants enforce this to make sure no secret mating occurs
~The few females that live past mating age, I am calling them "crones" at the moment, serve as sort of a cross between Tyrant and Butcher: making decisions (probably collectively) and keeping lore/cooking/making 'brainy' decisions... Butchers and Crones meet to decide things important to the tribe, like when to move on from a hunting ground... I havn't come to a good idea of whether or not some crones can use gut magic
~Females are not a part of the heirarchy that dominates male ogre life, but do have a fair amount of covert social power.  A Tyrant is not really a Tyrant if the females won't lay with him, and if the females invite you to their cave it is among the greatest honors a male can recieve... males probably keep an eye on the females that are around for signs of approval or disapproval, and this drives the competitiveness of ogre society greatly
~Not having to be competitive, female ogres rarely take a part in war... besides, if the males lose the war they weren't worth mating with and the females will move on to a different and stronger tribe.  Females WILL defend a camp from attack and especially defend whelps... one reason ogre camps arn't attacked and ogre warfare takes place on the field between camps is that there are double or more defenders of an Ogre camp than you would face on the battlefield just a short distance away.

NOW that being said, females probably do have their own seperate arts and entertainment... female songs, female dances, female art... female stories of female heros told by Crones and skilled female 'bellowers'.  Hrm... a thought occurs... what if males do not perform piercings, that they are 'granted' to a male by skilled female piercers to show favor of the females in the tribe (particularly after being allowed to mate)...

Gnoblar fights. (Like dog fights etc) and General Gnoblar games where you bet on a Gnoblar to win.

Very very true... 'noncompetitive' just for fun activities probably make good use of gnoblers and gnobler victims.  Less personal ego involved so can be entered more freely...

If people want to start throwing together lists and rules of 'ogre games' and 'gnobler games', or even composing ogre shout-songs this section of the almanac would be a great place to showcase that sort of creativeness.

An ogre... outside of the social jockying of his fellows... who has rights, privalages, and expectations beyond his peers... who needs to have a good memory and be reletively knowledgable... and can say negative things about powerful ogres without fear of reprocussion?  Sounds like a butcher's job to me, butchers as storytellers/lore masters would certianally expand their active role in society.

I was thinking the same thing as I wrote it as, in the Celtic world where I drew the inspiration for this from, the classes of druid and bard were very similar, both having an extremely religious role. I just felt that the title of Firemaster might benefit from having these additional connotations. Maybe Firemasters are simply a different kind of Butcher? Thoughts and comments welcome.

First off, there absoluty has to be some mention in the final draft of female ogre belly dancing. XD That's just to good to pass up, as long as you don't have a good imagination...

The thing I was wondering about though were the rewards and punishments for winning or loosing and ogre game. Supposedly the loser has to donate part of his body as a snack, but really....how many games could an ogre play before he was running out of bodyparts? Not to mention the fact that all the ogre models have full sets of ears and fingers...well...cept Scrag and the leadbelchers.

Are these "body part games" less common then games where it's purely for fun or can an ogre buy his way out of losing his bodyparts with some kinda alternative payment? Like "If I lose, I hunt you a deer. If I win, you get me a cow" If I was an ogre I'd take a steak over a gristly ear, but perhaps its neat for them to think "hey, theres Thag! See his ear? I did that for eating more then him!"

Let's see....as for what games ogres would play...

Arm Wrestling: No brainer really. XD

Rock hurling: What is that game that the Scots used to play? where they would hurl rocks and see who could throw a bigger one further? I imagine ogres doing this, not with rocks but with boulders.

Flatulence bouts: Really disgusting. Each ogre would get a torch, bend over, and see who could produce the bigger gout of methane induced flame.

Death Style Maw pit tug of war: Two ogres cover themselves in blood, and stand at opposite sides of a maw pit with a rope. Blood of course will make sure the gorgers in the pit are hungry and waiting, who ever is pulled into the pit...loses really big.

Ratting: A bunch of skaven are tossed into a pit, and then trained sabertusks are thrown in. Much bets take place as to how many skaven the sabertusk will kill within a limited time period. Those with well trained sabertusks are vaunted heros, as are the ogres that round up particularly tough and vicious skaven for better bouts.

Avalaunching: In which ogres yell as loud as they can at a mountain untill they get a snowslide, the better bellower of course will bring down trees, rocks, and if he's really lucky, a clumsy mammoth.

As for ogre "music" I imagine that it's very much more of a beat then what other people would consider real music. I get the feeling ogres would love heavy bass playing from a booming speaker or in their era repetitive club beats over the hollow skull of a giant. All the instraments would have to be percussion with maybe one or two wind instraments thrown in. I can't see an ogre figuring out how to play anything more advanced then a drum or a horn with a single note. An ogre trying to play a violin would make every cat in the neiborhood yowl.

I don't imagine the "music" going beyond steady whacking noises either. "thump thump thump" is about the highest musical score they could get, and an ogre able to go "thump thump bang!" would be hailed as a musical prodigy.

Lastly, ogre story telling brings to mind the tall tales people used to tell in america. Ya know, Paul Bunyun, Texas Bill, etc. Stories no one would beleive yet are much liked just because at their deep center there is a nugget of truth and also because the stories are just plain fun and whimsicle. Every tyrant would of course have his own bragging story, but every tribe would have stories that all ogres knew, simply because they were so good they were passed on by word of mouth for ages.

Maybe Firemasters are simply a different kind of Butcher? Thoughts and comments welcome.

Firemaster is honestly a title I havn't given much thought to... some ideas though:
A: The Firemaster is the 'head' butcher of a tribe that has multiple butchers
B: A Firemaster is an 'apprentice' butcher; someone learning how to be a butcher but not yet able to cast gut magic
C: A Firemaster is another, seperate Ogre distinction seperate from butcherness that tends the fire for the camp, and maybe carries the brand to start the fire at each seperate camp (...Bruiser special weapon choice 9 pts: great brand, counts as 2H weapon, also does fire damage...)
D: 'Firemaster' is sort of a lesser Bigname, a title tacked on to another ogres name when he learns how to make fire independantly.

Thoughts on the Firemaster?

I might have a shot at 'composing' an Ogre song, but there's a few minutiae that would need to be looked at:

1. Pitch system.
There is no reason to assume (indeed, it is extremely unlikely) that Ogres would use the same 8-notes-in-an-octave, octaves-are-equivalent pitch system that Western music has used. Pitch in Western music is loosely based off Pythagorean ratios that were intended to reflect the harmony of the spheres, and rhythm was originally based off the number three, representing the Holy Trinity.
I don't think that Ogres would be particularly theoretical about this, but I think most things would be based on a symbolic number.
For example:
The number '4' could be important, symbolising three important facets of Ogre life - fighting other races, feasting, fighting Ogres, and the Maw. This could be used, rather than having a 'scale', per se to derive four different 'reciting tones'. When you are singing about feasting, you use the feasting tone, etc. These would then have pitch inflections (possibly four 'sub-tones' for each tone) based on what you mean.
The manner in which the music is dictated, then, would be based entirely on the content of the text.

2. Rhythmic system
This would be very basic. As mentioned before, however, the Western system was originally based on a ternary concept (three is perfect, anything less than three is imperfect, and must be made perfect by the following note). Western music now follows a binary system, where all note values are half of the value of the next higher order.
There is no reason to assume that Ogres would use either a binary of ternary form. Given the lack of thought that would have gone into generating these systems, it may indeed be a highly complex system, based very circumstantially on what the surrounding musical conditions are.
If we follow the model above, there would be four basic durations: really long, long, short, very short. These would not, however, be tied to the subject being sung about (otherwise all music at a certain reciting tone would always have the same rhythmic content). This would be applied systematically, and intermixedly all over the place.
I suggest the following ratios of length:
short = very short + very short
long = short + very short
really long = long + short.
Assuming that very short = 1, we get the following ratio:
1:2:3:5, which is basically the same as the Fibonacci series, although the Ogres wouldn't know that...

I think that, using the ratios above, that Ogre music would be approximately metred, with either five or six beats in the bar. These would be used interchangeably. A really long note would always be a full bar, while the six beat bars are so that the other three note values can be used in the space of a single bar.
The rules would, I think, consist of stuff like:
a   When reciting tone changes, the new tone is introduced with a really long note.
b   When reciting tone changes, the outgoing tone ends on either a short or long.
c   When two subjects are being sung about in connection, their tones may be freely mixed, rather than modulated to (bitonality).


I will need to have a bit of a think on how accompaniments are derived. This is probably something that would vary from tribe to tribe.

3. Butchers
Butchers would be the singers in the tribe. The Slaughtermaster of each tribe would also double as the loremaster, and know everything there is to know about their history. The Slaughtermasters trains acolytes (Butchers) and I would think that Butchers would also have apprentices (Bellowers, perhaps?). Thus, there would be a system kind of like universities today, where there is a lecturer (the Slaughtermaster), tutors (Butchers) and hundreds of drunk undergrads (Bellowers).
I think that the Slaughtermaster would, by default, be the Firemaster. There would be no additional title given.

Pauncho,
From what I've read about ancient civilizations and such,
a fire master would likely be the title given to the tribe member given the task of carrying the fire from one campsite to another.
This would definitely have been a position of great importance as fire was almost a lifeline to them in those days.
Just my thoughts.
Oni

I don't see butchers doing anything to amuse other ogres, they're just too mean and violent for such things. So the butcher as a bard/singer really doesn't work for me.

As for firemasters, I'd go for option D, the big name. I'd like to see some of the more intelligent ogres earning this title. It does however mean that in most tribes, only the butchers are firemasters.

As for firemasters, I'd go for option D, the big name. I'd like to see some of the more intelligent ogres earning this title. It does however mean that in most tribes, only the butchers are firemasters.

This ties in with the book somewhat, that Apprentice Butchers are taught the secret of fire by their Master as one of the (final?) parts of their training.

Of course, this is from memory, so apologies if I've dreamt it up...

I might have a shot at 'composing' an Ogre song, but there's a few minutiae that would need to be looked at:

Woah... way outside of my education, I'll leave this one to you!  One tidbit I can add is that the ratios of notes that make 'harmony' are based largely on the physical apparatus for hearing and the underlying neurological processessing of it, so what notes sound good 'together' depends somewhat on how discriminatory ogre hearing is.  Although I havn't finished writing it up (forgive me!  this term is almost over, I'll have some time to devote to the project after next week), I picture ogre hearing as being more sensative on the lower octaves than the higher ones (common in open-air mountain species AND in predators that follow herd animals for their primary food source)... basically what that means is that I would wager ogre music is universally low and rumbling to a human ear, but may contain more variety in pitch (even if it is a 3 note system or just a 'higher' 'lower' reletive system) to the discriminating ogre ear.

Even if we assume very little variety in pitch and little ability to recognize more than two or so note lengths... a variety of body instrumentation could expand the repetoir nicely... bellows of a few different tones, clapping of hands, stomping of feet, slapping of gut, maybe a good belch once in a while... mix those up in sequence of chorally and you have yourself some good stuff.

From what I've read about ancient civilizations and such,
a fire master would likely be the title given to the tribe member given the task of carrying the fire from one campsite to another.

Many cultures had such a tradition, especially if they lived in environments where it was wet or otherwise difficult to produce the fire in the first place... someone would carry the fire from camp to camp and be in charge of maintaining the central bonfire in each camp from which each smaller cooking/warmth fire would be lit.  I can definetly see an ogre given this position and recieving some status from it... apprentice butchers, bruisers, or maybe a team of ironguts.  Heck, a big giant flame on a stick could even be a source of pride to rally around like a banner...

I don't see butchers doing anything to amuse other ogres, they're just too mean and violent for such things. So the butcher as a bard/singer really doesn't work for me.

Maybe not amuse as in sing songs no... individual ogres and bellowers would probably do that.  But tell the history of the tribe and of famous ogres?  Tell stories that impart important ogre moral lessons?  I can definetly see that... really who else in the tribe would be able to remember the history accurately enough?

This probably seperates ogre songs/stories into 'high' and 'low' type categories: Butcher told histories and moral tales repeated fairly exactly and perhaps ritualistically... Bellowers screaming out baudy and lewd stories and rhythmic beats...

One tidbit I can add is that the ratios of notes that make 'harmony' are based largely on the physical apparatus for hearing and the underlying neurological processessing of it, so what notes sound good 'together' depends somewhat on how discriminatory ogre hearing is.

This is true to a certain degree (ie: degree of dissonance being determined by the number of 'beats' between two pitches), but what a culture determines sounds 'good' is largely a social construct. For instance the 'Are'are people of the Solomon Islands is based on an equiheptatonic scale, which means that the octave is divided into seven equal steps (the Western octave has twelve equal steps). Obviously, this sounds completely ludicrous to Western ears, but to the 'Are'are people this is regarded as sounding good.

I would agree, though, that Ogre music would all sit roughly around the Bull vocal range. I would expect the music to span a little over an octave.

I'd tend to come at this from a slightly 'illogical' approach, too, as if you apply all of the musical rules that 'make sense', you will end up with something sounding very similar to Gregorian chant. While, frankly, I think there would be similarities, I don't think we want anything sounding that controlled for our big guys.

If someone wants to have a go at writing a kind of short epic Ogre poem (in 'Ogre-ese', of course), I'll have a bash at setting it to music.

Like Linebreaker said, the title of firemaster is one of the many jobs given to butchers. It says this in the book.

Having thought about ogres singing and dancing for a little I have a little scenario I thought up;
A bunch of ogres are at a feast, and something happens, maybe two ogres bump into one another, and one takes offense, and instead of a duel it becomes a brawl; maybe one ogre eats a live bear; maybe the head butcher/slaughtermaster gets up and bellows, something. And one ogre stands up and bellows, and another stands and slaps his gut, and those ogres without musical inclination are slowly moving into the center of the feast area. Soon enough every ogre is either bellowing, stomping, pounding, slapping, clapping or roaring around the central area. The ogres in the middle have become a writhing mass of flesh, similar to a mosh pit, pushing, and shoving, and punching, without malice or need to prove superiority. It sounds pretty disturbing, and plausible, a seething mass of muscle and fat, gore spattered from it's meal, fighting and wrestling, surrounded by tables piled high with meat in various states of doneness, and ogres standing around it all, bellowing, and in general making a whole lot of low, rumbling primal sounds. The noise just connects to the ogre's most base nature, it has become just about moving and yelling. Even some humans could "dance" to this, the way a bass beat can get you tapping your foot whether or not you like the music.

This scene would be similar to what happens in a gospel church; everyone stands up and shouts. It would be a religious high to the ogres, who get a rush off of the incredible volume and violence (once again, the fight in the middle isn't about superiority, it's about movement, and feeling the music), off of losing control. Whatever happens, I think ogre dance is unlike anything humans would call dancing. And it would be highly religious, because I can't imagine ogres dancing just for fun.

I'll try to get some more in later.

In terms of 'public participation', I would expect Ogre music to be very much like a gospel church. There is the core body of music, that is deeply spiritual for Ogres, and is only known in detail by, or is even only permitted to be sung by the Slaughtermaster and his apprentices. Ogres would yell along, though, to show their enthusiasm, and there would be repeated refrains that all of the Ogres would know.

All races seek order to some degree - yes, even Chaos - although this would be manifested through the ritualisation of things like music and dance. Thus Ogre music wouldn't consist purely of disordered shouting, although the response to it may certainly be such. Music would follow certain rules - they would simply have developed over years of standard practice.

And just remember when talking about ogre music, try not to interpret it the way a human would. Ogres wouldn't neccessarily disdain music as soft because that requires the interaction with another race. On their own, in a secluded valley with no interaction from other sentient creatures ogres would make music that we just can't understand.

The number '4' could be important, symbolising three important facets of Ogre life - fighting other races, feasting, fighting Ogres, and the Maw.

Um, I think u may be missing a reasonably important facet of most male-dominated, primitive societies.

Now a knew thought on Firemasters and Slaughtermasters: the Slaughtermaster is the Ogre equivalent of a warrior priest, the big, beefy, bearded guy with the hammer exhorting the army on in the name of whichever god he follows. On the other hand u have the quieter, scribe-priest, the one who records all the mighty deeds done by his/her god/goddess' followers. A Firemaster would be like that, except with less studiousness and more fighting, hunting and burning people who disagree with him.

I don't think there is a distinction between Firemasters and Slaughtermaster/Butchers, learning how to start and harness fires is one of the many talents an ogre learns while training to be a Butcher.

I agree with Reg06. If Firemaster were a separate Ogre title, I suspect we would have heard of them in the official fluff, or as a Big Name, or something. The GW exclusion of social classes in the Army Books usually only extends to womenfolk...

My only objection to spinning firemaster directly into a butcher job is that a human became firemaster for one tribe... I doubt he became a butcher too...

Actually, good point: doesn't that story imply that Ogres don't have control over fire? I don't have my book on me, on account of being at work, but weren't the tribe amazed by Reuben Kyte's command of the element of fire? Or was it his ability to make weapons or something?

If the former, it would follow that very few tribes have a position such as Firemaster. If the latter, I would assume that if the tribe has knowledge of fire, that it would be incorporated into the Butcher's job. For most human tribes, the Firekeeper (or whatever) was a semi-sacred position. I get the impression that the entirety of the Ogres' spiritual life is curated by the Butcher 'class'.

We could easily compromise the two positions together...

Firemaster is usually a title that a butcher of the tribe is given, if there is more than one butcher than only one holds that responsibility...

However, some tribes do not have a butcher (for whatever reason: butcher died recently and hasn't been replaced etc) and a Bruiser may be taught the secret of fire making and maintainance to act as firemaster.  In any case, whether Butcher or interum Bruiser, it is a position of alot of prestige.  A human demonstrating those skills, perhaps when the tribe currently lacked someone who could do so, openend a 'backdoor' into tribal prestige and position for a human.

For anyone interested, the secret to firemaking is...
1) Wait for gnobler to make camp fire
2) Eat gnobler
3) Take his campfire

For anyone interested, the secret to firemaking is...
1) Wait for gnobler to make camp fire
2) Eat gnobler
3) Take his campfire

genius

I liek the idea of the compromise too, seems to work quite well.

Thanks
Corai

A kind of summary...

Ogre Art:
-'Painting' of pictograms primarily related to storytelling
-Body art common: piercings, scarification, body painting, and crude tatoo work (a popular thing to get while mercenarying is a human drawn more intracate tatoo).  Certian piercings are only given by females to show their favor
-Club and Gut-plate decoration (usually to make appear more dangerous OR attach trophies OR add 'good luck' symbols like the Maw)
-Trophy display at base camp
-With few exception little regard for other clothing decorations, females more likely to decorate/dye clothes than males

Ogre Music:
-Universally simple in structure: little note variance, no subtletly in volume (always louder is better), non-complex two-to-five step rhythms, little attempt at harmony or melody
-Two forms of ogre music
--Ogre 'High' Music:
---Performed (or at least led by) Butchers
---Highly structured and ritualized
---Topics include: Ogre History, Tales highlighting important Ogre morals, sometimes the personal tales of the Tyrant and/or Butcher
---Usually performed voice-only, perhaps punctuated with specificly called for claps/stomps/drumming
---Usually performed 'solo', though some use of call-respose systems are used
---Performed around feasts, after winning major battles, naming of new ogres, or other times of religious/cultural significance
--Ogre 'Low Music':
---Performed mostly by Bellowers, though any ogre may join in
---Very little formalized structure beyond rhythm
---Topics include: personal bragging, humerous stories, wordless rhythmic bellowing
---Nearly always performed in groups, with one or more bellowers leading with the lyrics and other ogres keeping beat in various ways
---Performed with voice, both in words and in wordless bellows/yells/grunts... punctuated with belly slaps, stomps, claps, belches, club thumps
---Some tribes/bellowers involve simple instrumentation: large drums (hide or log, played with clubs), gongs, or simple single note horns (made most often from animal horns)
---Performed during any time of festivity: eating after a hunt, feasting, settling down for a night after hunting
---Also sometimes performed as 'marching songs' while on the move or fighting, punctuated with marching boots

Ogre Dance:
-Most dances either resemble or in some way are combatitive
-Little formal dance structure
-Closest modern comparison would be 'mosh pit'
-Females teach secrets of highly erotic belly dancing, not known to males

Ogre Storytelling:
-Very common form of entertainment
-Sometimes formalized into chanting songs, see 'High Music' above
-Stories are either humerous or bragging related in some way
-Personal bragging is common, as is telling about famous ancestors and the exploits of famous past tribe members
-Stories are generally totally unbelievable, comprable to 'tall tales' of Paul Bunyan etc

Ogre Sports:
-Most have very few and simple rules, agreed upon before competition (each tribe conducts the 'rules' slightly differently for different competitions.  For example: the Feastmaster tribe shockingly does not count parts of serving trays and food-carrying gnoblers in eating contests)
--Individual Competitions: The most common form of Ogre sports
---Directly Combative: Wrestling, Pit Fighting, Push out of a circle
---Contests of Strength: Weight Lifting, Tug-of-War (individual), Boulder Throwing, Tree Tiping
---Contests of Endurance: Heavy stone carrying over long distances, fire grabbing, gnobler sharp-stuff firing squad challange
---Gut Contests: How-Much-Can-You-Eat, How-Much-Can-You-Eat-In-A-Certian-Amount-Of-Time, Eat-This-Hard-To-Eat-Thing, Try-And-Guess-Which-Thing-You-Are-Eating-When-You-Can't-See-It... the list is endless here
--Group Competitions sometimes happen, particularly between bands of brothers AND even more so in multi-tribal gatherings
---Most are just group versions of the above sports (IE: group tug of war, carry heavy stone as group, eat this big thing fast as tribe, etc)
-Eating part of your opponent for winning a competition is traditional, but genrally only performed in particularly important challanges... usually just the prestige of winning OR a small trinket/food item is given to the winner by the loser

Gnobler Sports:
-Forcing gnoblers to do things for entertainment/gambling is very common, the list of things to have gnoblers do for fun is literally endless

And a popular sport often played immediately after tree-tipping (not to be confused with the game young ogres like to play; rhinox tipping) is tree throwing, similar to caber tossing. Pick the tree up vertically and throw it as far as possibly, this requires strength and skill.
Which reminds me of Braveheart, and the part when the big Scotsman throws a big rock at Wallace. Another sport the more hardcore ogres like to play is boulder catching. Like when you played catch with water balloons as a kid, only the ogres play with rocks, which get bigger the farther you get from the other ogre. And the first ogre who falls loses.
Less organized games ogres like to play in their free time are usually contesting of endurance, like bloody knuckles. Popular variations include; Punch to the face until the other guy gives up, how many stabs to the arm (or leg) can you take?, foot stomping, and the extreme Roshambo.
Near human lands ogres get more civilized, and sometimes play a very popular, unorganized sport similar to rugby. Two teams of ogres, often competing units of bulls or ironguts get on a big open space and try to get a head sized rock to the other side of the field. The only rules concern the boundaries, you just stop the other guys from getting to your end however possible. And there really aren't plays- one team starts with the rock (the rules that dictate which team gets the rock first variy among tribes) and if they score the other team gets the rock, which can also be stolen. When the game stops also varies according to the match.

Just a thought about the oral history and butchers. I could easily see that the most intelligent bulls would be chosen for butcherhood, but not all would have an aptitude for working gut magic. These butchers would still be utilised as a kind of bard in that they would have enough intelligence to remember the tribal history. They could also travel from tribe to tribe bringing news trade and helping to disperse the gene pool (I mean what cow would want a night with a rock star). I like the idea of two seperate branches in the Butcher world. One as druid and one as bard I just see a small difference between the two.

Butchers don't need to be the most intelligent Bulls, they just need to draw blood instead of milk from their mother's teat. It is, however, only the smart ones that survive their apprenticeship under their often foul-tempered and malicious master.
However, those Bulls with a good memory and long legs could be used as a sort of Bard, bringing news and "song" to tribes in exchange for a night around the fire and some good meat. Although I imagine a number of them would have a bunch of Gnoblars in "chorus", i.e. remembering everything for him.
And it might lead to a bit of a "Chinese Whispers" effect, with "Ghort Longtooth killed a Rhinox", turning into "Ghort Longtooth killed ten Rhinox and a pack of Sabretusks" by the time the Bard gets to the next tribe.

Out of all the subjects mentioned Pauncho, I find my thoughts most peaked by Ogre storytelling. Allow me to explore a bit.

While Butchers are obviously the magic wielders, shamans, and religious leaders of a tribe, most of us also agree that they would know the most about the tribe's history, or Ogre history in general. Doubtless during the apprenticeship of a whelp as butcher-to-be, his master reveals to him over numerous lessons and storytellings the tribe's history.

However, in regards to storytelling to the entire tribe by the Butcher, I doubt that they would tell tales during hunts, travels, battle (obviously) etc. My point is that storytelling is a big deal, and a Butcher would take quite a while to tell a full tale (embellishing and such). I believe that the majority of Butcher storytelling occurs at feasts.

Feasts are not calm affairs by any means. Games, constant feasting, Pit Fighting, and arguments leading to full-on brawls are better described as a bit of a contained riot.

I imagine Butchers would draw the whole tribe into a bit of a presentation. For example, during massive feasts, perhaps in a slight lull in the games, the tribe's Butcher would stand perhaps in a ring of torches, near the maw-pit (perhaps on higher ground) and have several Bellowers call for attention (as much as can be given).

The Butcher would then begin a loud tale of the great history of the Ogre species, the coming of the maw, the migration, etc. Telling also of that particular tribe's history, famous Ogres, exaggerations of heroic deeds and the Maw.



So in my mind Butcher storytelling is very similar to a scene you can that, say, African tribesmen perform. During a great gathering, the shaman/wise man stands before the seated tribe, near fire, tells legends and histories etc. Save for the fact that an Ogre version of this would be loud, with much eating occuring, also seeing that most Ogres would not be inclined to sit quietly and listen with rapt attention during a feast.

So there you have it!

IIRC White Dwarf magazine had rules for "Punt the Runt" (or something to that effect), a game where ogres would kick gnoblars for distance, but would have to be a little careful in case their gnoblar exploded at the end of their steel-toed boot.

- Wheggi