GW is too expensive

Games workshop just are charging far too much for there not to mention then there new fine cast, it costs so much yet it is terrible quality. any way I always try to buy else where like i found this site http://totalwargamer.co.uk/warhammer-fantasy-battle.html and it is 30% all the warhammer they have but there postage is just so slow i was wondering if anyone knows of any other sites that are more reliable.

Why don't you convert characters out of plastic bulls?  Its cheaper and you won't have to use finecast.

I've always had fantastic service from both Wayland Games and Element Games. I can't speak for their international service, but their UK service is second to none, and great prices to boot

JJ

I have had some smaller issues with Waylands and they ship rather slow -BUT I would still use them when I can get the free shipping.

For the GW prices, yes they are rather high. But it is all relative:

Look into other hobbies and see what kind of expenses they have. In that aspect a box once in a while is okay in my eyes.

Look into the quality you get at GW. The new boxes are AWESOME when you look at design and how things fit together. I love the gamezone models but they fit like crap (no offense) and needs some work to assemble whereas the GW part just click and fit (eg. the new LOTR eagles and phoenix).

BUT starting a new army is rough and not even the core units are pricy now. AND to have a somewhat competitive army you'll need 3-4 boxes of the rare/special expensive kits. That can be expensive and here I think that GW is getting rough but it is kinda forced upon the gamer by friends/competitiveness.

I have bought most of my armies secondhand to fill my core/older units and that works for my finances but if I should start out again and get everything new I'd be in a painful situation (perhaps GW uses LOTR as a starter for people to get into fantasy).

In the end, GW is expensive but to me they are the best provider of models and the expenses can be controlled by how much shiny stuff you need (all my models surely aren't painted ; )

Edit: I started Ogres also from a price perspective as a low model army (too bad for me that I now have way too many models : )

Ogre Kingdoms is going to be my last full army I will have bought out the gate. I am working on Empire, but I am doing it piecemeal. I am getting Knightly Orders, painting them, and loaning them to my Fiancee who plays brets. I play the Navy Battles, and am going to get a small empire force to crew a ship. Etc... If I can not find an immediate use for an Empire purchase, I move on to an Ogre, Eldar, High Elf, or IG purchase that is on a very strict list that I follow.

The only 'spur of the moment' buys I to are if I see good deals in a consignment case, and I came to that store with the intent to buy in the first place.

I have had 2 very bad experiences with Total Wargamer.
Very late on delivery and terrible customer service. You cant even call them anymore.
I have heard people have waited 5 months and then still not getting a refund.
My wife got me the citadel battle board for Christmas. It took 3 months to come and only after i told the owner of the store i would be visiting him if he didn't send us the goods.

You might want to google reviews of total wargamer.

https://www.facebook.com/TotalWargamerComplaints

Www is full of nutters posting without responsibility but.....

I have to agree with Joakim here. Yes, the models are expensive, and let's not even go to the Sisters of Slaughter or Sisters of Avelorn boxes, which are just way over the top. Especially when you think about the SoS box making Witch Elves, which are a Core choice

But then again, you pay for quality. I love how well the models go together. I've had experience with other manufacturers' models, but GW are top notch at making models that go together very well...

As for Finecast, that was a mistake, no doubt about it. Lately the Finecast stuff seems to have been good, at least from what I've seen through the plastic of the clam pack (haven't bought any lately, so can't say). However, it should have been great from the start...

But still, it is expensive. Starting a new army is a daunting task. I've long been thinking about a Wood Elf army to round out the Elven trio, but right now it's not going to happen. It will be a longer project, with the occasional box here and there...

Then again, other hobbies are expensive as well. So it's not just the toy soldier hobby But it's still a hobby that I like and that gives me a good fuzzy feeling, so I'm quite happy in that regard

- Loran

Comparing this to other hobbies is a wasted exercise. Not one of my other hobbies compares to this in cost over what it returns. The models are often invalidated by the changing of rules, the fluctuating of meta or the release of newer and shinier models. You don't get that with fishing. Or cooking. Or reading. Or hiking. Or tennis. Or rugby. Or...

I agree that you get what you pay for, and GW's models are particularly awesome. You don't have to look much further than the upcoming Wood Elf release to see that. But they aren't any better than, say, Wyrd's Malifaux plastics, and are a damn sight more expensive...

I'm not saying that GW are too expensive, per se. But some of their models are ludicrously priced when you look at the prospect of putting a unit together. I guess, its prerogative, and how many demands you have on your expendable income

JJ

Is it expensive?
Defined how?  Compared to what?
An Xbox one is just shy of £400.  Thats a lot of ogres
There are cheaper gw resellers, but they dont offer gaming space, and the customer service is frequentl * poor.

Is it getting more expensive?
Me on TheDarkCity 15months ago
 

Sorry for the Necromancy, but I think its important to put some of this is perspective
I started GW 17 years ago.

Back then, prices were, well, I'll go get white dwarf and see.
WD196, April 1996 at a guess.

Warhammer 40k was £40, Dark Millenim, the psycic power supplement was £20.
So right away, you are at £60, compared with £61.50 today.

Now, you did get a mini army list for everyone in that, which was roughly two pages of A4 per army.
You got 40 identical gretchin with autoguns, 20 identical orks, a picture of an ork dreadnought on card, two identical space marine sergeants with BP/CS, two identical space marine rocket launchers, and 16 identical marines, two with flamers and 14 with bolters.

Compare that with 5 Terminators two are duplicated, a Tactical Squad not sure about duplicates, three bikes, and two characters for the space marines, so as many models, but better models, and more variety.
Now, you dont get 60 chaos guys, you get 28, but the models are far better.

You also get some card terrain in the 2nd edition, which is frankly naff

So, on price, old and new 40k are equal, on quantity, old 40k wins, on quality, new 40k wins.

Army books
Angels of Death, £12.
Ok, here old 40k is miles better, the book is more than twice the size, for £8 less, however, quite a lot of that is just the stock codes to order things. So actually, a 60% increase over 17 years is not bad, petrol is up 60% in the 7 years since I started driving.
Again, I'm not prepared to call that one way of the other.

Today,
Captain Chenkov, £6.65
Then
Captain Chenkov, £5

A 33% increase. Again, thats over 17 years, historicaly you should be expecting 400% over 20 years.
UK minimum wage is up 47% in the last ten years.

A land speeder and a dreadnought were £18 and £20, yep, speeders are up 50p in seventeen years, and dreads are up £8.

Dont get me wrong, its not all sweetness and light, the predator was £15 not £35, but you didnt get anything like what you get now.

Eldar Guardians were £1.25 and guardian jetbikes were £5
A box of four guardians is £6 today, up £1, and a bike is £8, up £3.

Again, these are SEVENTEEN YEARS of price increases.

A Terminator was £4, today £5.60.
Except for the Cyclone, who was £5.

Snotling Pump wagon was £10!

So, there we are, some facts from a long fang who's actually been around for more than half white dwarfs life, and half his own Embarassed

Oh bugger, white dwarf was £2.99, and was orders of magnitude better than todays £5.50 version.

*modified on 28/04/14 by the language police!

Ok, so the models are expensive compared to some other brands, but you do pay for quality. T

The way I see it, it's like the fashion industry: I can buy a plain t-shirt from H&M or Zara, or I can buy a plain t-shirt from Dior, the value of the product is based not just in the incredibly subtle differences in it's creation (that might not even make that much of a difference to the end product) but also the world it is released into.

We buy GW models because of the war hammer setting and backstory, it is rich, and supported by many talented fiction and science fiction writers to help inspire the imagination. As also mentioned they provide free gaming space and hobby tutorials alongside variously priced events and competitions.

Who else does all of this? If another brand does, do they do it to the same standard?


It is pricey (and often too pricey for me to consider, please don't misunderstand me) but on the whole...

worth it!

There are cheaper ways around the hobby, just have to be willing to search and more often than not wait for things to appear on eBay and such.

Quality is GW's only saving grace. When I open the latest monstrous creature, I am rarely not awed by what I get for my money. But, like I've said, GW aren't the only one to offer such high quality plastics, and they are almost always bettered on price. Just a thought.

As an aside, people keep mentioning the resources they offer... Have many of you spent much time in your local GW stores recently? The two local stores to me limit the time you are allowed to spend painting and modelling, effectively booking short slots. As for gaming, you are limited to 1500ptbattles of WHFB so as to not detract from them having time for 40k. Its way too prescribed. One of those stores is managed by my best friend and it's still pretty lame.

Conversely, Wayland Games offer a vast hobby space, with access to resources and space for an unrestricted amount of time

JJ

I have been in the game since 1995 and I am also a former GW employee-- they priced me out of the hobby and I stopped playing for a long while.  The prices keep going up AND for less and less models is the kicker.  The problem is that a while ago they stopped making the games because they loved them and wanted to provide great games (because that is what they truly believed in) and they turned into a business that wanted to make money (because that is truly what they believe in now)

When friends urged me to play again, it was with old models and conversions.  It was the discovery of flea markets and auctions that really has been a boon to my hobby, so I recommend it to you.  You need to inquire at local stores in the area (don't limit yourself to just your favorite place, you need to cast a wide net) and be willing to drive an hour just to see what is for sale.  Also, its actually a great reason to attend many conventions, they usually have a flea market area.  The idea is great: you can get good used stuff at reasonable prices (some may need some love), and in return the previous owner has fast cash they can use to ease the high price of buying a new army.

As for the "Comparing hobbies", its a bad argument/PR policy put out by GW for as long as I can remember that doesn't stand up to examination.  That Xbox performs miracles compared to miniatures (note that I do not own the newest Xbox).  Also, I spent a few hundred dollars on a nice guitar when I was young, and that has given me far more enjoyment and hours spent playing than any army ever did, and no army ever got me laid...that's for sure.

Truly, if you want a good cost comparison: the man who got me into Warhammer so long ago recently sold his last army for the equivalent of his monthly mortgage payment.  That's really what it costs.

Back to the original topic: GW sees the writing on the wall, that China does better resin recasts then their finecast line and offers it for 1/2 the price, and with the coming advent of 3D printing (the quality of which is REALLY good these days) they know their days are numbered and they are trying to squeeze every last dollar (sorry, pound) out of it all before they sell the company.  I think that is truly why after so long of sitting on finished model sets and releasing them slowly to keep a constant revenue, they now seem to be rushing to throw all these new products at the consumer base.

Despite my above post I  also completely agree with other people here who  have been in the hobby longer than me and was witnessed the changes (Especially Havoc just above me here). In that light GW has gone from a hobby focused company to a profit company, which is not surprising but for the gamer is a dire IMO.

To me, I am more worried about continuation of proper rules and updates which, I guess(!), does not generate much income but is needed to enjoy the game.

Quality is GW's only saving grace. When I open the latest monstrous creature, I am rarely not awed by what I get for my money. But, like I've said, GW aren't the only one to offer such high quality plastics, and they are almost always bettered on price. Just a thought.

Funny you say that - I feel the Monstrous Creatures GW does are really the only kits that have good value. What good is expensive yet high quality infantry if what I really need is the numbers? Monsters will always be one thing, that's easy, it's understandable to pay a bit and get one that looks nice, but no matter how pretty Witch Elves can look that price is extortionate.

GW's pricing can be similar to other ranges at times, true, and sometimes better quality. But games like Warmahordes are a lot cheaper for a fully playable army, and have a better ruleset to boot.

I absolutely agree about GW's priorities changing.

Now I can't walk into a GW store without an assistant coming up to 'chat' to me in sales speak about the newest thing that came out from the armies they have gleaned that I am interested in. It's insufferable. Talk to me like a human being with a passion for the hobby, or leave me alone and I'll speak to you as a sales assistant when one is required.

I realize that my above post would make anyone ask "why the crap do you play this game!?!?"

I do enjoy the hobby and will not let my anger at GW prevent me from enjoying an otherwise good thing.  Their models are good when they don't have problems (finecast, which I will never buy again), despite being over-priced.  My feelings towards GW would be different if I knew their policies were survival based - any company has the right to try and ensure survival.  But they are not.  The current policies are aimed at maximum profits, not longevity or strengthening the community.

I am literally now on the verge of flogging off my Fantasy stuff (over 3000pts of Ogres and Dark Elves). I'll be keeping my 40k stuff as there are more people that play it locally and if I ever move and need to start up again it's the more common system I can be pretty much assured of finding a game of.

However, as I started with GW in the late early 90's I've seen things change dramatically. You may have posted that the Landspeeder for the Spaas Mehreens has reduced in price, but the old one was all metal remember! I'm just not going to bother to keep spending money on them. There are other (better IMO) games out there that I have just as much/more fun playing and I feel happy to support because they interact with their community rather than it feeling like I'm just being milked for my money which is what GW does.

It's always sad to come to a point like this because GW are the company that started me in this hobby, but there is just so much competition these days that GW are losing their relevance. Yes there are the die hard hangers on and they still have a high street presence massively above all their competitors but their competition has moved on. GW have not and are struggling to catch up, problem is, they're doing in a way that is actually hurting their interests.

Yeah GW is expensive, I blame it on them becoming publicly traded.

All about the profits now.

However, as I started with GW in the late early 90's I've seen things change dramatically. You may have posted that the Landspeeder for the Spaas Mehreens has reduced in price, but the old one was all metal remember!

So?
Its cheaper, you get more bits AND the model doesnt break under its own weight anymore


Apologies to the language police

Embrace your hobby and pay for quality and service, if not do something else, moaning on a forum is not a hobby.

No, but it is opinions and open discussion. Exactly the point of a forum. Making little contribution beyond snarky comment, however, is not

If you believe GW isn't expensive, that's your prerogative. Precisely the same way some of us feel that it is over-costed. Let's keep it on topic but light-hearted, eh?

JJ

I have super mixed feelings about the price of GW minis.

On one hand the new models are for the most part very nice and very easy to assemble. I have built minis from many manufacturers now and GW is always the easiest in my experience. The details are sharp and the mold lines are generally not too terrible. Miscasts happen but they are good about replacing them.

On the other hand they are costly. Of course the entire process of designing a new mini (from concept to digital sculpt to mold making and mold tweaking and fixing molds while in production) and the cost of raw materials is high but you have to wonder if they could sell more miniatures at a lower price? Turns vs earns is the game here... so a slightly lower margin on the final sales could equate to a higher overall sales volume if they cost a bit less.

I don't know exactly the structure of their business but I am sure they are charging what they feel they need to charge in order to get back their initial costs and cover their continued overhead. Could it be a little high? Maybe. Could they do things differently? Sure but that isn't really up to us to decide unless you are a shareholder or something.

Personally I don't mind their pricing. It slows down my crazed model buying and allows me to plan things through better. It also leaves room for more small scale and independent model companies to "fill the void" with other cool minis. In short without the big dog of GW we wouldn't have as many small dogs able to break into the already established market.

Small business can be innovative and flexible where GW is too large to be as nimble and agile.

I have read, at length all the comments here and listened to what people are saying. I have tried not to post anything because I am not sure what eles I can offer to this discussion other than my own perspective.

None-the-less, for what it's worth, here it is;

I started buying Citadel Miniatures in 1984/ 1985. The first models I bought were all metal, no slotta bases. They came in a lovely presentation box (the one with the barbarian/ chaos warrior on the cover) and I think they cost about £12 for a unit. In reality, I don't think that is that much less than now.

The things I disagree with regarding Games Workshop actually don't have anything to do with price.The first sad thing for me is that White Dwarf, Citadel Miniatures and Games Workshop are now all one collective company. I am pretty sure they weren't always that way. Many was the time that I would buy WD just to read an article on "how to make a fortress out of a loo brush and some sticky tape". These days it's just a catalogue of latest "must haves".
Citadel Miniatures made models for D&D and Talisman and other game systems. Not so anymore.
Games Workshop used to act as a crèche or drop-in centre for single parents in the 80's. Mothers could happily leave their kids at GW whilst they went to work and the shop staff were more than happy to engage the kids in hours of fun games and share their enthusiasm for the hobby that they seemed to love. I would love to see some poor mum try and drop off kids at a store now!

I really detest the current way 40k is going with the constant up dates, digital releases and the need to have about 10 different books to play a simple game. This is why I have given up playing 40k.

The original question was is GW too expensive? Well, not to me really. It's like all things; if I want it, then I have to pay for it and it's worth what it costs. If it wasn't worth that then I wouldn't pay the price. To me it's kind of that simple. If I want it I will pay what they charge. If you (that's a universal you) don't think it's worth what they charge, well don't pay for it.

Having just built a bunch of horrid Mantic hybrid models I can say, without question, GW are pretty much the best at what they do. There are other outstanding smaller independent companies out there that do amazing stuff, but there releases aren't as frequent with as much variety or the added "trappings" that GW have.

It is costly as a hobby, but in comparison to my mates Diving (his hobby) it is much cheaper. He just spent £800 on a wet suit, I spent £35 on new paints and a Lamasu. All expense is relative I guess.
The things that bother me about GW aren't their prices it's more the loss of DIY hobbiness, the make your own ethos and just the enthusiasm of loving the hobby as a whole.

When GW starts charging £800 for a gameboard or a battalion box, well then I am out! Until then...

G_H

^ second this, everything is circumstantial. But in the end, we all know what we are willing to pay. Some have more than others.

I really detest the current way 40k is going with the constant up dates, digital releases and the need to have about 10 different books to play a simple game. This is why I have given up playing 40k.

+1
I get depressed whenever someone in my group invites me over and then says "40k!" these days.  That is no longer a game, every event is a research assignment and rules discussion.

Thing is, I can sort of appreciate the idea of having lots of nice add-ons for 40k. It'd be pretty cool if there was a book for fantasy containing a bunch of units that could be used in a mercenary fashion, each restricted to certain armies (a bit like the Storm/Arcanum monsters with the Arcanum's fluff chart), and sometimes even unusual lists (Southlands and Sylvania spring to mind, though you'd have to hope they don't do a mad broken one like that one that gave High Elves a free turn of shooting).

Problem is, relying on GW to do it fairly. Making hundreds of add-ons for only Imperials? Codices that contain one or two units!? I mean, I can understand Be'lakor and the like, individual special characters are cool. But expensive massive books for just a single set of rules is a bit of a pain.

Also, balance. Cos GW still haven't figured that one out yet.

Thing is, I can sort of appreciate the idea of having lots of nice add-ons for 40k. It'd be pretty cool if there was a book for fantasy containing a bunch of units that could be used in a mercenary fashion, each restricted to certain armies (a bit like the Storm/Arcanum monsters with the Arcanum's fluff chart), and sometimes even unusual lists (Southlands and Sylvania spring to mind, though you'd have to hope they don't do a mad broken one like that one that gave High Elves a free turn of shooting).

Problem is, relying on GW to do it fairly. Making hundreds of add-ons for only Imperials? Codices that contain one or two units!? I mean, I can understand Be'lakor and the like, individual special characters are cool. But expensive massive books for just a single set of rules is a bit of a pain.

Also, balance. Cos GW still haven't figured that one out yet.

They did have that for a long time with the Dogs of War and regiments of renown.  It's where Golgfag came from.

^ This. Although I agree on balance. Its not that GW can't get it, its that they don't want to. Imbalance in their systems, skewed in favour of their latest release, boosts sales for that release. Typical them I'm afraid.

I'd love to see a relaunch of Mercenaries though. In fact, I'd love to see more expansions of various natures for Fantasy

JJ

They just cant win can they

GW keep it balanced, they are slated for releasing too many updates
GW dont release constant updates, they get slated for an unbalanced game.

When GW starts charging £800 for a gameboard or a battalion box, well then I am out! Until then...

Shh! They can hear you!

They just cant win can they

GW keep it balanced, they are slated for releasing too many updates
GW dont release constant updates, they get slated for an unbalanced game.

Frequency/number of updates doesn't inherently equate to balance pal...

JJ

I really detest the current way 40k is going with the constant up dates, digital releases and the need to have about 10 different books to play a simple game. This is why I have given up playing 40k.

Whilst I agree and to play devil's advocate here, look at it purely from a business point of view, disconnect all gaming logic/thoughts and think of it this way.  Product A consistently has more sales/attention than Product B.  So what you are naturally going to invest your money into?

Remember guys (and I must reiterate I detest GW business model - love their products) they're a business nowadays ran by businessmen, gone are the days when they were gamers/hobbyists first and businessmen second, they're running to purely make revenue end of story.

Remember guys (and I must reiterate I detest GW business model - love their products) they're a business nowadays ran by businessmen, gone are the days when they were gamers/hobbyists first and businessmen second, they're running to purely make revenue end of story.

Then, TBH they have f**ked up. Quite simply, the last year that I played 40k intensively, I spent over £2000 on 40k stuff. I work, (allegedly) have disposable income and am the "fanatical loner" type. I very much doubt that "little Johnny" can blag his parents for £2000 worth of models and books in a year. Even if he could, how long will it last? Trends and new crazies will take precedence, as well as general growing up and discovering girls etc. I am the best bet for longevity of income....well, I was....

G_H

You'll get no disagreement from me mate. 

I believe their target market is the first time gamers and they've literally deemed the veterans out of that business model.

Then, TBH they have f**ked up. Quite simply, the last year that I played 40k intensively, I spent over £2000 on 40k stuff. I work, (allegedly) have disposable income and am the "fanatical loner" type. I very much doubt that "little Johnny" can blag his parents for £2000 worth of models and books in a year. Even if he could, how long will it last? Trends and new crazies will take precedence, as well as general growing up and discovering girls etc. I am the best bet for longevity of income....well, I was....

G_H

It's not just little Johnny.  Lots of players are parents and grandparents, and taking care of the kids always wins out.  If you want longevity in the hobby, keep it something that parents can afford, because I would totally get my son his own army when he is old enough to play if it were priced right to where I didn't feel I was throwing money away at something he may not use or might abuse.  I am in to things like Warhammer because some of my earliest gaming memories are of my Dad playing the early editions of D&D and teaching me Magic the Gathering when it first came out.  But, if I cannot afford the hobby, they are not just losing my business, but I am not teaching my son the game, and he is not telling his friends about it.

G_H, you are mostly right, but longevity also requires new customers as well, and the game is something that gets passed on from fathers to sons and among friends, but only if it is a game people love.  While some people started the game because they walked into a store and discovered it on their own, I think most people, when they think about it, started because someone they knew played and spoke highly of the game.  And people are only going to contInue to love it if the company loves it and puts the love of the game first.  The sad thing is that the revenues were there and it was a growing company when GW was true to their cause.

Although I agree on balance. Its not that GW can't get it, its that they don't want to. Imbalance in their systems, skewed in favour of their latest release, boosts sales for that release. Typical them I'm afraid.

I agree completely with this. I recently participated heavily in the Wave 2 and 3 Open Beta for Malifaux 2nd Edition. This meant that the gaming comunity as a whole could jump right in and get stuff tested, report back and the devs would tweak, fiddle or rewrite stuff and repost the changes the follwoing week. Once that was done after a period of 2-3 months they internally tested the stuff and threw it back out as an almost perfectly well rounded and balanced set of stuff to be played with. Wyrd Miniatures constantly strive for a balanced product, this is something GW could take into account for the benefit of the gaming community rather than their wallets.

If only GW could do something like this rather than grabbing up every penny they can by making more and more OP books each month the game wouldn't be pushing me away so much. I've all but given up playing WHFB round my way due to cost, OP armies being released almost weekly and the complete lack of any challenging players. All the 40k kids still seem happy with the weekly releases but that says it all about the 40k crowd round my way. If I were to ressurect my Tau I'd probably have to buy about 3-4 books and some over priced FW stuff just to stand a chance these days. Not to mention 4/5 players are Imperial.... Yawn!

Although I agree on balance. Its not that GW can't get it, its that they don't want to. Imbalance in their systems, skewed in favour of their latest release, boosts sales for that release. Typical them I'm afraid.

I agree completely with this. I recently participated heavily in the Wave 2 and 3 Open Beta for Malifaux 2nd Edition. This meant that the gaming comunity as a whole could jump right in and get stuff tested, report back and the devs would tweak, fiddle or rewrite stuff and repost the changes the follwoing week. Once that was done after a period of 2-3 months they internally tested the stuff and threw it back out as an almost perfectly well rounded and balanced set of stuff to be played with. Wyrd Miniatures constantly strive for a balanced product, this is something GW could take into account for the benefit of the gaming community rather than their wallets.

I'm so glad someone else mentioned Wyrd. I know the GW fanboys are getting tired of hearing me keep mentioning Wyrd, but not only are their prices competitive and affordable, their models are easily as good as GW's (for the most part!). Add to this the way they approach games development, and their positive attitude towards community input, and they are everything GW should be and are not.

JJ

Although I agree on balance. Its not that GW can't get it, its that they don't want to. Imbalance in their systems, skewed in favour of their latest release, boosts sales for that release. Typical them I'm afraid.

I agree completely with this. I recently participated heavily in the Wave 2 and 3 Open Beta for Malifaux 2nd Edition. This meant that the gaming comunity as a whole could jump right in and get stuff tested, report back and the devs would tweak, fiddle or rewrite stuff and repost the changes the follwoing week. Once that was done after a period of 2-3 months they internally tested the stuff and threw it back out as an almost perfectly well rounded and balanced set of stuff to be played with. Wyrd Miniatures constantly strive for a balanced product, this is something GW could take into account for the benefit of the gaming community rather than their wallets.

I'm so glad someone else mentioned Wyrd. I know the GW fanboys are getting tired of hearing me keep mentioning Wyrd, but not only are their prices competitive and affordable, their models are easily as good as GW's (for the most part!). Add to this the way they approach games development, and their positive attitude towards community input, and they are everything GW should be and are not.

JJ

I'd argue aesthetically Wyrd's models are MUCH nicer in my opinion, Their metals are much nicer than GW's for the most part and now they are moving to plastic GW doesn't hold a candle up to them anymore as far as I'm concerned. Even the GW fan boys agree with me on that however their usual counter argument is they lack variety and customization options. Every Lady Justice is the same pose etc. To which I say so what?! I don't pay £10-15 for one plastic model smaller than a space marine. £60 in Malifaux will get you an entire crew, a fate deck and a copy of the small rulebook. That's literally ALL you need other than the usual tape measure and maybe a couple of dice or something to represent soul stones/scheme markers.

What would £60 get you in GW? You can rarely get 20 models for that. Especially with the newer models and prices. Luckily places such as Wayland Games, Element Games & Firestorm Games exist so we can actually create a WHFB army without destroying your bank balance at the same time.

I wouldn't necessarily say they are aesthetically better, I'd say they are on a par. Although, it depends which models you are comparing. I really love the Viktoria crew - some of the nicest plastic infantry-sized models I have ever seen The value for money is insane - a little over £100 spent on Malifaux, and I have 3 usable (although slightly small) crews. The equivocal value of GW products wouldn't get you a fully playable - let alone, competitive! - army... It's a sad disparity between a company I grew up to love, and a company who I have been forced to love by the former's lack of empathy for it's customers

JJ

Oddly, Swedish Comp works REALLY well for 40k, and returns alot of the fun (as long as you're playing low-comp requirements, which in 40k equals 'softer')

Whilst I didn't mention other mini companies (as I was really centring on the GW aspect) I would heartily agree that Wyrd's mini are of excellent quality and production-wise are on a par with GW. I also love a lot of the mini's produced from the Polish resin companies such as Kromlech, Scibor, Puppetswar and maxmini.

My point for these guys is that, at present, they don't have the "whole package" just yet. I sincerely do hope that they get up to speed with production level, variety, release frequency etc I would love to see people give GW a run for their money. I wish that Mantic would get there act together, because if they did they could give GW a real run for their money. Sadly at present the quality of their mini's is far from the same standard as GW.

As for the farther-to-son argument; yep, I can buy that. I am sure that allot of people would pass on a love for the hobby that way. But then again, I go back to my original point...if you love the hobby and want to pass it on to your children then, I would suggest, that cost is not really an issue. The fact that a child may not instantly get into it, destroy models etc is actually not really that relevant. They may, but then again they may do the same with a Playstation 4...it doesn't stop people wasting £400 on them. If you love something and want to share it then the cost is less of a factor than the actual sharing, I would have though.

G_H

Unfortunately they seem to be heading in the direction of trying to cut those guys out

If only GW could do something like this rather than grabbing up every penny they can by making more and more OP books each month the game wouldn't be pushing me away so much.
I've all but given up playing WHFB round my way due to cost, OP armies being released almost weekly and the complete lack of any challenging players. All the 40k kids still seem happy with the weekly releases but that says it all about the 40k crowd round my way. If I were to ressurect my Tau I'd probably have to buy about 3-4 books and some over priced FW stuff just to stand a chance these days. Not to mention 4/5 players are Imperial.... Yawn!

Maestro I can't help but feel your post is just a bit of a whinge fest.  Hear me out and take into consideration I'm just playing devil's advocate and am far from a GW fanboy (business practice wise at least).

Firstly that's an exaggeration about a new army book being released every week - be fair at least.  On the cost issue I can only assume you've got a bit of a decent collection of models already and nobody is forcing you to add more to your collection.  If there is a complete lack of challenging players in your area then I'm scratching my head as to why you aren't seeking more out or attending more tournaments?

Also I feel like in some way you've contradicted yourself, you mention GW producing OP armies then talk about the lack of challenging players?  Surely if you're not being challenged then the OP lists aren't a real problem for you personally?

On the Tau issue I still don't quite follow.  I'm sure you'd only have to buy the core rule book and the latest Tau book to have the very basics to begin with.  Also I find it hard to believe that every single 40k gamer within an 'X' amount of miles is a power gamer just intent on smashing his opponent into oblivion with no care on his/her enjoyment.  That's a bit sad if it's the case.  Also it's no secret you don't have to buy Forgeworld stuff from 'Forgeworld' - just saying.

As for the farther-to-son argument; yep, I can buy that. I am sure that allot of people would pass on a love for the hobby that way. But then again, I go back to my original point...if you love the hobby and want to pass it on to your children then, I would suggest, that cost is not really an issue. The fact that a child may not instantly get into it, destroy models etc is actually not really that relevant. They may, but then again they may do the same with a Playstation 4...it doesn't stop people wasting £400 on them. If you love something and want to share it then the cost is less of a factor than the actual sharing, I would have though.

G_H

I guess I don't love the hobby...

Actually, I often put things in dollar perspectives, just because it helps me to prioritize for my family.  Do I love this for free?  Absolutely!  Do I love something for $50?  Sure, that's a date night with the wife and she might understand.  Do I love a warhammer army for $600-1000+?  Nope.  For that price, I can get 2-3 months of groceries to feed my kids.  Hungry kids don't seem to care about warhammer, I have tried (funny, though the argument might not correlate to a PS4, but I don't own one, so I cannot test it).

And just to see, I priced out just buying one of each of the types of units in the Dwarf Army and a book with no characters (so, only 5 Slayers), and it was over $600.  Some of those sets only have 5-10 models, not really enough for a respectable unit.  Not exactly a built army, I don't know the point costs for units to get 2500 plus some variations.

Dude, I agree with everything you have said there. Absolutely.
I don't think we are disagreeing here at all. 

All I am saying is you pay what you think something is worth. If you like/love it that much then you'll pay for it. If it was really that important to share this love of Warhammer or whatever it may be, then people find a way.

like you have said; it's just not worth all that money in comparison to what else you could buy with the cash. Fair play. Like I am trying to get at; everyone has a limit. Some people will pay $1000's on models because to them it's worth it. others wont because to them it isn't.

If I really loved this hobby I would have one of every army and loads of made up converted armies of my own with fan rules I had written. I don't! I don't because quite frankly I don't value it more than other things. And that is where my line is drawn. When I say no, that's when the value is too much.

GW is expensive to anyone who wont pay what they charge. For those who will, it isn't.

G_H

If I really loved this hobby I would have one of every army and loads of made up converted armies of my own with fan rules I had written.

Except Skaven I hope. 

Obviously except Skaven. That goes without say Jimmy, I mean please!
Skaven! Ha! 
You are a one!

G_H

I've only been playing since July of last year.  I picked Ogres because the research I did showed that they were the most cost effective (smaller number of models needed for any given point value.  After that, I've been slowly building my army, taking care on each model to make it how I want it to be, resulting in me doing a lot of conversions.  I've had a lot of fun converting stuff, such as my ironblaster and my hunter.  But, I've been making sure that I get the most value out of my modelling dollar by ensuring that I have an army that I am happy with.

Thus far, I have 1.5 battalion boxes (bought on a sale, and a friend bought the ironguts out of the second box for use as chaos ogres), an ironblaster I received as a christmas gift, and a box of mournfang that I got half off at a gaming convention.  Every game I've played has involved proxies of one kind or another, but I am definitely having fun playing the game.

The other army I have is lizardmen.  To date, the only official GW Lizardmen product I have purchased has been the rulebook.  Everything else has been handmade bases, milliput and dinosaur toys.  Given the cost of the toys, I have a full 2500 to 3000 points worth of army for less than the book itself.

I fully agree with everyone on this matter: GW is too expensive.  I have a good job, my wife has a good job, and we are definitely financially stable, but I have no desire to fork out a ton of money if I don't have to.  The only reason I've spent what I have is that I like the game and I like converting and painting models.  That is why it bugs me so much that GW seems to care more about their profits than they do about putting out a good game.  I would happily spend more if they gave me a reason, but after my third time getting a 6-dice purple sun to the face while in melee combat with the caster, I was definitely given a reason not to spend more than I have to.  So, until they decide that the game itself is important to them, I'm going to keep doing what I can to have fun without giving them any more than necessary.

Jimmy : Yeah your probably right, I was having a bit of a bad day and I apologize for having a whinge!  I often don't seek out many tournies because to put it plainly there aren't any local ones and I don't have the time to be travelling all over the country what with work commitments, planning for a wedding and that sort of thing.

I think my main problem with GW is the price increases, this combined with their complete and total lack of support for the local community that really feels like a kick in the teeth. At least in my local area. 40k just seems utterly ridiculous at the moment, rules wise many vets from my local GW have given up, with the Unbound armies on the horizon it's not helping. It just feels like they care more about their profit margins than they do about the gaming community as a whole.

 I don't disagree with your comment about challenging the newer books but to be honest I've been doing that and it's a case of utterly smash them or get smashed by stuff that's ridiculous. Warlock Buses for example, just plain stupid! From what I've heard about the new W/Es they are gonna be even worse than Dark and High elves. Perhaps it's just my view on GW at the moment but I remember when I got into the game a good 15 years ago when they were more reasonably priced and the game had quite a bit more balance to it. Generally people don't like playing a game where they can't use their favorite models etc because they never stand a chance of winning. (Well some do for fluff or fun games but not me). I genuinely believe GW would benefit from offering open beta tests for newer releases so the public can have their input and help the company balance the game out instead of releasing more and more crazy books. They seem to have crept each Elven release up in power and High Elf players seem to have been slapped in the face by both the Dark and Wood Elf books.

Maybe I'm just suffering from a case of WHFB Burn Out. I don't know but to me at least GW seems to be going down a direction that I don't agree with. I fail to see their justification in say 10x Witch Elves for £35 when you can get 10x DE Warriors for £20. It's seems like they feel the need to charge more for the models that are better than others. Perhaps that's just my perception but either way I don't feel happy with the way the company is doing things.

Thankfully the Ogre's kits are more reasonably priced! 

...this combined with their complete and total lack of support for the local community that really feels like a kick in the teeth.

I think this is one of my bigger issues, outside of the ridiculous price hikes. I used to run an after-school Warhammer club at my local Primary School, but was at an age where I didn't have the expendable income to freely support the endeavour financially, so wrote an email to GW explaining the situation. The following week, I received a full set of paints, a tool set, at least two brushes for every member, and a £100 gift voucher to buy models with... I bet they wouldn't even acknowledge the email these days

I fail to see their justification in say 10x Witch Elves for £35 when you can get 10x DE Warriors for £20. It's seems like they feel the need to charge more for the models that are better than others.

See, I don't want to sound like I am being anti-GW for the sake of it - because Warhammer is my longest love and a huge part of who I am - but this example perfectly illustrates the lunacy of their current business model, and how determined they are to screw hobbyists over to make a quick buck.

JJ

...this combined with their complete and total lack of support for the local community that really feels like a kick in the teeth.

I think this is one of my bigger issues, outside of the ridiculous price hikes. I used to run an after-school Warhammer club at my local Primary School, but was at an age where I didn't have the expendable income to freely support the endeavour financially, so wrote an email to GW explaining the situation. The following week, I received a full set of paints, a tool set, at least two brushes for every member, and a £100 gift voucher to buy models with... I bet they wouldn't even acknowledge the email these days

I fail to see their justification in say 10x Witch Elves for £35 when you can get 10x DE Warriors for £20. It's seems like they feel the need to charge more for the models that are better than others.

See, I don't want to sound like I am being anti-GW for the sake of it - because Warhammer is my longest love and a huge part of who I am - but this example perfectly illustrates the lunacy of their current business model, and how determined they are to screw hobbyists over to make a quick buck.

JJ

I'm glad that there are others that agree GW is lacking these days. They definitely seem to have lost one of the things that really made them special. I also love Warhammer, the models are great, the rules are fun and overall the fluff of the universe is fantastic, if I didn't feel that way I probably wouldn't have been playing GW games for 15+ years. It's a shame the business model being applied to sell the product is slowly but surely forcing some people out of the hobby.

In regards to community support the only thing my local GW store does is advertise our local club (The Poole Gaming Society) on their GCN. It's not blatantly advertised on the shop walls but if for example somebody wondered in store looking to find a club they'd point said person in the direction of the GW site where the GCN can be found. That is literally about it. It's a shame because they used to have club open nights in store on Tuesdays and later it switched to Thursdays. 10 Tables in all, 4 WHFB, 4 40k, 1 Apoc and 1 SoM. It was great! Then GW decided to minimize costs so they stopped that, sacked 2/3 members of staff and it's been sadly going down hill ever since. Still, I pop in from time to time to catch up with the manager who's pretty cool and buy the odd bits and bobs when I do but I primarily use online sellers like Element Games now because their prices are fairly reasonable in comparison to GW.

I started gaming with GW proper in 1991 at the tender age of twelve. While I've not had people to game with through that entire period I've got good friends that I play against. After many years of GW doing what they do, we're playing less and less GW stuff and have turned to other vendors whose games are just better (subject to opinion of course) with miniatures I love just as much but cost much less.

I am literally getting ready to sell off all my 40k and fantasy models. I don't play the games, have no excitement for it any more and know that my money will go further purchasing from other companies that do actually care about their customers. This has been a very hard decision for me because GW brought me into the hobby. But, as I'm nothing but a walking wallet to them I'm taking my money with me.

What depresses me is that due to the various sackings, the stores I've been to seem to have really good managers - because they're the only thing keeping the store going and thus don't get sacked. But it's not right that people who have genuine interest and enthusiasm for the hobby are having to somehow keep excusing the mad price hikes and so on (Not met a GW manager in years who actually thinks it's well priced).


Also, Mastero, if it's any consolation, 40k currently has done an about-turn and made Tau and Eldar the two power armies, to the point where most lists have them as at least Allies. It's nice to see less of an Imperial presence, but at the same time depressing that 40k has more bandwagoning powergamers on average than Fantasy...

I started gaming with GW proper in 1991 at the tender age of twelve. While I've not had people to game with through that entire period I've got good friends that I play against. After many years of GW doing what they do, we're playing less and less GW stuff and have turned to other vendors whose games are just better (subject to opinion of course) with miniatures I love just as much but cost much less.

I am literally getting ready to sell off all my 40k and fantasy models. I don't play the games, have no excitement for it any more and know that my money will go further purchasing from other companies that do actually care about their customers. This has been a very hard decision for me because GW brought me into the hobby. But, as I'm nothing but a walking wallet to them I'm taking my money with me.

Before we all go jump off a cliff together in grief over the state of a game we loved so much, I offer this approach I took when I quit GW because the new boss made working there totally the opposite of fun(opposite the spirit of the game, very similar to big picture GW now):
Don't let other people dictate your hobby if you don't have to.  The best decision looking back that I made was keeping a 40k army in storage, and as I got back into the hobby I was kicking myself for getting rid of a bunch of stuff I wanted again.
-I keep a single 40k army (Dark Angels) to pull out and use when friends or family are around and want to play a friendly game.  We simply ignore bad GW rules we don't like.  If something new is out, it can make a debut, but fun is the most important thing. I am still painting stuff from 3rd edition anyway, why buy all that much more?
-I am expanding slowly in Fantasy, but don't buy faster than you can paint (and at the best of your ability) and never ever pay full price on a GW product if you can help it. Second hand is huge

GW's pricing can be similar to other ranges at times, true, and sometimes better quality. But games like Warmahordes are a lot cheaper for a fully playable army, and have a better ruleset to boot.

This is a funny statement to me.

At a local store here in Southern California, a Pressganger, trying desperately to knock the elitism out of the local Warmahorde group. (They were on the verge of being kicked out of a store because they would interfere with the stores sales team when a customer was intrested in Warhammer, which more often then not caused the customer to leave, or they would spend their entire time talking about how dumb Warhammer players were to pay so much for a 'shitty game.')

So, he decided to debunk the cost myth, and rolled on information on the average army size of a warmahorde player, and then pointed out that for Warmahorde players to get to an average tournament sized army, they'd frequently spend as much, if not more, then the average tournament sized 40k list, and about the same as the average Fantasy list.

It is not any cheaper was the conclusion, just that Privateer Press hides the cost better. Also, PP does provide a rule set that makes the game more viable at small scale, which is where you can save money.

Elitism is weird. I remember at one point 5th ed 40k was outright rejected by certain older members of the local gaming group. 8th ed Fantasy had a similar thing as well, particularly in regards to random charges.

I think it's just the tribe mentality thing. I love to push Warmahordes myself, but if someone's interested in something else then I'm going to support them in that decision too.

Thinking about it, it does make sense to me that 40 is cheaper - one box of dudes is often one FOC chart slot, end of story. Maybe get a second to bulk it depending on what it is.

I suppose I'm just a bit jaded after enduring several years of Leafblower, where a sea of Guard Chimeras was practically the norm...


Still want to get more people playing Mordheim! Can't argue with THAT for cheapness!

I get annoyed that ironguts are more expensive for no good reason. Same amount of sprues, yet they are same price and you get 4

It's the +1 Leadership.

Gahhhhhh. And the fact I haven't seen anything out of china yet in regards to rank and file ogres

It's the +1 Leadership.

Hehehehhe.... ; )

On another note, I have ordered and started to put together some Gamezone models - they are beautiful and all, BUT they require so much greenstuff work and pinning and time. In that aspect GW models are ace, simply put from a time perspective where I dont have to sweat to put together my minis. The time saved is worth it on some level unless you fricking loooove pinning and GS up gaps : )

Go check out Gamezone by the way - awesome models (no ogres though!)