Maneaters x ??

I am thinking about using maneaters in my army. I usually use a horde of guts and i am looking for options. First how many should i be using and what formation? Also the main question would be, what is a good combination of Been there done that?

Thanks all

This is a very common question that has been asked in the forums. And that's okay, because Maneaters are probably one of the most versatile units in the game (and easily the most versatile for Ogres! ).

The size of the units can pretty much work from 3 up to a horde, depending on what you're planning on doing. 3-4 can be used as a good flank unit, 6-8 a good mainline unit, and a horde just silly/scary.

Now, as for the BTDT, there's a lot of combos to consider. I'll just list each part individually, and you can dig through from there.

Stubborn: Good for any ME unit that you want to tarpit with; I prefer using this w/Poison if I'm running a Manstar (character bunker), but I've also had good success using it with Scouts/Vanguard to get it near the units I want it stuck in. Note, however, that this is a passive bonus, and is only intended to be used if you plan on losing combats.

Immune to Psych.: I generally don't take this one, but it can be good for dealing with monsters or other Terror-causing units. I'd combo this with either Stubborn (for a unit that doesn't move), or perhaps the Scout/Vanguard to also get it near something you want it to fight. If you're running more than one ME unit, I consider splitting up Stubborn and ItP, just to make the two units both less likely to break (due to different circumstances).

Poison: This one's favorite pairing partner is Sniper, on a unit with all Braces of Pistols. It improves your odds of one-shotting (or, rather, one-round-shotting) enemy characters (especially wizards and BSBs, which are going to be your targets anyways). Poison can also work when you can't decide on any other rule, because as an active ability that helps you get more wounds through, it can always help.

Sniper: I've seen this work synergistically with only two of the other rules: Poison (as explained), and Scouts, so that you can get the ME's as close as possible to your targets. This rule's only really good if your whole unit takes BoPs; if you can't afford it points-wise, then just take AHW/GW's and go the melee route.

Swiftstride: Great with Scout/Vanguard to get the unit into a possible 1st turn charge (assuming that you don't go first!). It helps increase their effective charge range, as well as help with the rundown after winning Even Swiftstride with Stubborn/ItP can be good, as it helps you get more successful charges.

Scouts and Vanguard: I'll do these two together because I see them both viable in their own ways. Which is better? Depends on the situation. Sometimes you can actually get a better position with Vanguard (especially in larger games), but Scouts can get you weaseled into a good corner to provide a threat on an exposed flank. Personally, I'd use Scouts with smaller units (6 or less) so that they can fit on the board better, while I'd use Vanguard with larger units (6 or more) so that they can get up and in the mainline's face without too much fear of being wiped on the first turn. Note also that I put 6 for either scouts or vanguard, at that size they're good anywhere.

Strider: The forgotten rule. It's pretty much never used, because moving through difficult terrain isn't really that big of a deal. I think GW just threw this rule in to round the list out to 8 (too bad they didn't do like ASF instead lol j/k). I don't think anyone's ever used it, and I think nobody's been bothered by it

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Really, there are so many different ways to play Maneaters, the best way to play them is to just experiment. Proxy some of your other Ogres to play as Maneaters, and just try a few different builds. I've had great success with Stubborn/Scout, Stubborn/Poison, and Sniper/Poison. And if you look around the forums, you'll find people that have kitted out their Maneaters differently, and with different results. It's a great unit, and can definitely be put to good use, even when our Special points are spread so tightly to begin with!

(edit: Sazel types faster than me)

Maneaters are expensive so how many you take depends on what you are willing to give up elsewhere in your army. After core, characters, and a brick of maneaters points start getting tight.

That said, first you ought to decide what their function will be. Both unit size and BT;DT will stem from this decision.

Main combat block? No less than eight. They die as easily as our core units, easier if you don't give them heavy armor (which I find myself doing when points are tight). I used eight with swiftstride and ITP in my last game. I've also considered swiftstride and poison, but the ability to run them outside my leadership bubble without fear of panic is so versatile. If I didn't have ITP I would definitely take the gleaming pennant. Another possibility is vanguard, to get them into combat even faster. I think swiftstride might still be better though as it increases the chance for an ogre charge, which at strength 5 or better is just wonderful. Front rank should have as many XHW as you can afford, or maybe a GW on the champ if you have one and see lots or armor in your meta. Second rank can be GW or stock naked.

Scouting ninja bomb? Probably no more than six so they can squeeze into little spaces. I view this kind of maneater unit as disposable, so never mind the heavy armor or great weapons, just take XHW and maybe a musician, even more maybe a banner. Cheap, powerful, have to be dealt with or they will destroy a flank or backfield. ITP is my preference for scouts, maybe swap that for swiftstride if you are taking a banner and can have the gleaming pennant.

Sniper unit? I'm not sure how many to take as I don't like this use of them and have never run it. 30+ points per shot, praying for 6's seems a terrible waste of a perfectly good wrecking ball combat unit. Probably want as many as possible, but I could see a smaller unit of 4-5 snipers trying to plink wounds off characters all game. In either case they will certainly want poison to go with sniper, and all have brace of pistols. The flaming banner can be a good buy against hydra, hellpit, trolls, etc. Cancelling regen before the ironblasters go off can be a game changer, but trying to snipe a character with a 2++ vs flaming is pointless. So I would likely pass on the flaming banner unless I knew I would be up against regen monsters.

The other BT:DT rules don't synergise as well I feel. Stubborn means you plan on losing combats, which maneaters are good at not doing but is does happen sometimes. Strider can be great when you roll up that freaking marsh-of-pass-an-Initiative-test-or-lose-D6-models (lost 6 of 7 models to that once ) but is otherwise overshadowed by the other options. I can go around terrain if I need, I'd rather take something to help me smash face.

Don't forget one really good reason to give them swiftstride...Ogre Charge.  If you are rolling three dice on the charge you have a MUCH better chance of getting the 10+ in order for the rule to kick in!

My favorite use is:

8x Maneaters (FC, Dragonhide Banner, 3x GW, 3x AHW, Poison, Swiftstride) - run them 4 wide with a GW on the champ and 2 GW's in the back rank, and all AHW's in the front rank.

Swiftstride gives you about a 35% chance to get a 10+ for the ogre charge.  It also increases your average charge range to 15 instead of 13.  There is great synergy in this and the Dragonhide banner.  Oh, and it helps run down units you break too!

Poison allows you to bypass toughness on an attack roll of 6.  Dragonhide allows you to reroll 1's on your attack rolls.  Another obvious synergy.

Running a mix of GW's and AHW's gives you the perfect blend of combat potential.  With the set up above, the unit has 21x Str 5 attacks on Init 3, and another 11x Str 7 attacks always strikes last.  Str 5 will typically wound on a 3+ and Str 7 nearly always wounds on a 2+.  Dragonhide allows the reroll of 1's on the charge.  And the armor save modifier is -2 or -4.  The unit now has enough attacks to deal with cheap troops (they mow through halberdiers like grass), and enough high Str attacks to cut through armor (I've killed 2 full steam tanks in a single turn with this unit before, although they had the "help" of a single sabretusk that failed a fear check on the 2nd).

Having two naked maneaters in the back rank helps with your point costs (you don't pay for upgrades on your first two casualties).

Giving the champion a GW both makes him even scarier in challenges (oh, you have a 1+ armor save Mr. Enemy Character?  Well how about 5x Str 7 Poisoned attacks?) and preserves the GW attacks in the unit, since the champion is the last casualty removed.

Whether to give them heavy armor or not really depends on your points allowance and meta.  I typically do not, as a 5+ armor save is easily negated.

I think lore of the Maw provides the best support, especially Toothcracker/Trollguts.  Spinemarrow is rarely needed (you've made some poor choices in play if this unit loses combat) and Bullgorger is wasted unless facing very heavy armor.  But +1 T / 4+ Regen is amazing.

Try them out and see for yourself!  They are awesome.

-Snark

I have 6, I tend to use 6. I can't for the life of me figure out how such an expensive unit with very average I, relatively few shots and worse defences than a Core Ogre can stomp so much face. It seems there's nothing outside of a main combat block (and they'll rip chunks out of them, too) they can't kill. Cannot compute.

The are one of those few units that are awesome regardless of what size they are.

I love running an eight man unit with poison and sniper.  Give them the gleaming pendant and a musician and they will tear things apart.  I usually snipe turn 1.  This will almost always kill a wizard.  After that they will shoot up units and soften them up for a charge. 

People don't think it's worth it, but in combat they're a beast and in shooting they're even nastier.  You can force your opponent's deployment with just this one unit.

I love running an eight man unit with poison and sniper.  Give them the gleaming pendant and a musician and they will tear things apart.  I usually snipe turn 1.  This will almost always kill a wizard.  After that they will shoot up units and soften them up for a charge. 

People don't think it's worth it, but in combat they're a beast and in shooting they're even nastier.  You can force your opponent's deployment with just this one unit.

If your opponent is letting you kill his wizard with sniper then he/she isn't good enough to deserve facing a unit like that.

I would say hands down sniper is the worst thing you can give them.

I love running an eight man unit with poison and sniper.  Give them the gleaming pendant and a musician and they will tear things apart.  I usually snipe turn 1.  This will almost always kill a wizard.  After that they will shoot up units and soften them up for a charge. 

People don't think it's worth it, but in combat they're a beast and in shooting they're even nastier.  You can force your opponent's deployment with just this one unit.

If your opponent is letting you kill his wizard with sniper then he/she isn't good enough to deserve facing a unit like that.

I would say hands down sniper is the worst thing you can give them.

Nobody can avoid them for an entire game unless they try VERY hard to do so.  In which case they are worth it because you have controlled their movement.  BTW, I've used them effectively against several people that have competed in national tournaments.  So it isn't something that only works against bozos.

Sniper can also be useful to pick off enemy champions that could hold up a challenge that would preferable to encounter. It may not be the 'end-all-cure-all' for dealing with enemy characters, but if an opponent knows that you have it, they either have to plan around it, or end up losing a piece of what could be an integral part of their strategy.

I don't think it's the worst thing you could give them. Strider is Strider doesn't really give much of any benefit for the unit, since it only helps in particular scenarios, most of which don't really apply too heavily against Maneaters. I think that Sniper is far more useful, and can be more impactful, than Strider ever would/could be.

Swiftstride and Poisoned Attacks here. I'm lucky inasmuch that my most regular opponent is very optimistic with regard to his movement phase, the charge is usually very easy to get.

I can not So you play games where an opponent putting his characters behind some cover is enough for you to 'control his movement' and undo his entire battle plan? The control the movement phase argument is such an non-starter as many players will use the fact you want to get in range to bait your maneaters

I can not So you play games where an opponent putting his characters behind some cover is enough for you to 'control his movement' and undo his entire battle plan? The control the movement phase argument is such an non-starter as many players will use the fact you want to get in range to bait your maneaters

Proof is in the pudding.  I've done it against very good players.  Every game is different, so you have to be flexible with them.  But they work nonetheless.  If you've had bad experiences with it, try them again.  If you've never done it and your entire opinion is speculation than I suggest yo try it before you knock it.  It isn't the only good build, obviously, but it is my prefered.  After that, I love scout/ swift stride.

I can not So you play games where an opponent putting his characters behind some cover is enough for you to 'control his movement' and undo his entire battle plan? The control the movement phase argument is such an non-starter as many players will use the fact you want to get in range to bait your maneaters

...And when he does bait your Maneaters, you still have a solid unit of fighters with Poisoned attacks and bonus attacks from the front row. Not to mention that you can stand and shoot anything your opponent throws at you. They'll be able to hold their own (especially at 6 or more), and kick the snot out of most average units.

But, you have to be smart, as well. If you put them in a scenario where the enemy's heavy cav and blender lord are going to easily charge them, then it's your own fault

I agree with God_of_the_Gnoblars, however, in the point that its "his preferred style". Maneaters are a unit that can be played in many different ways and utilized as such. If you've had a poor experience with Poison/Sniper MEs, then that's fine, don't use them! They can be used in other ways for good effectiveness as well!

I can not So you play games where an opponent putting his characters behind some cover is enough for you to 'control his movement' and undo his entire battle plan? The control the movement phase argument is such an non-starter as many players will use the fact you want to get in range to bait your maneaters

...And when he does bait your Maneaters, you still have a solid unit of fighters with Poisoned attacks and bonus attacks from the front row. Not to mention that you can stand and shoot anything your opponent throws at you. They'll be able to hold their own (especially at 6 or more), and kick the snot out of most average units.

Not if it's a unit of demigryphs or juggers. Taking sniper instead of stubborn means they can kill 500pts of maneaters without barely taking a scratch. A combined charge of a frostheart and cav bus will also have the same results. That's if the high elf player doesn't erase the units with short range bow fire.

But please enlighten me because I can't think of a single army where faffing around at the 24 to 10 inch range is a good idea. The elf armies will have the most fragile targets but banishment can be boosted to range 48 so I don't see why a light council would have to get into range. Also you move within 24 inches of any elf army and you're unit will get shredded by bolt throwers or glade guard. Empire have a wall of one up armour saves to screen their fragile on foot characters of they could put them in skirmisher units so you are hitting on sevens. Warrior characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Bret characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Ogre characters are too hard. Beastmen have plenty of screening units. Orcs and goblins do aswell and they will have no trouble killing all those maneaters in a ranged fight. Tomb kings and vampires will regrow wounds back. Dwarves are too hard to kill. Skaven probably have a few targets but they can screen very well. Daemons have plenty of options to screen aswell.

Just because your regular opponents can buy a ticket to a national tournament doesn't mean they are any good. Why it that even being used as a yardstick? If is then why do my opinions as a person who plays at 'national tournaments' not matter? Why were they not putting there characters behind cover or trees? Why were they not in a bunker unit behind a combat unit? Most armies tend to deploy like that anyway I can't see why a really expensive unit with no stubborn or armour with a very small chance of actually killing a two wound character would stress them out so much.

Sniper has no place in a tournament list due to it not being viable against any army provided they set up half decently and has no place in friendly games because it's not really that friendly is it? It hurts people with a lack of experience.

I'm not sure Stubborn is ever a good idea on Maneaters. If you're banking on them to lose combat somewhere down the line, you're using them wrong. The small footprint, relatively high M and access to Swiftstride (swift becoming my favourite ability - geddit?) enables them to pick combats as they see fit.

I wouldn't be too quick to discount Sniper. I don't really see how it's 'unfriendly' and whilst it's true that the shots will bounce off any respectable combat character, we don't actually see that many respectable combat characters doing the rounds these days (definitely not in lieu of other characters, anyway). What we see are level 4s, BSBs and all manner of support characters. I don't think it's the best option, but it certainly isn't to be discounted offhand.

I'm not sure Stubborn is ever a good idea on Maneaters. If you're banking on them to lose combat somewhere down the line, you're using them wrong.

No you're not you are using them for what they are best for in our army-taking down montrous cav. Stubborn also means the unit keeps doing damage until the last wound is taken off the unit. When the model with the last wound has 4-6 attacks then it's still formidable. A unit of seven or eight with a few great weapons will do about the same number of wounds to a unit with a high armour save but they still might get jammy and make enough so you lose combat. Stubborn means you don't lose the entire unit to one bad round of dice. 

And have you actually looked at any 2013-2014 list? Combat characters everywhere! Most bsb's are on horses with a one up save and a ward. Level fours tend to be rocking a four up ward aswell and should be well out of reach for our BS shooting. 

And sniper is unfriendly because it catches inexperienced players out in a way they feel they've been cheated. Sniper is worthless, gimmicky, unfun, points inefficient, luck reliant, easy thwarted and mathematically unsound.  It wouldn't work against me and it wouldn't work against anybody who I go to tournaments with. And none of us bar our empire player are actually that good.

A unit of 8 Maneaters with GWs is incredibly expensive, moreso than any MC unit you'll ever come up against and besides, we already have a very effective, tanky, GW-wielding unit in core. I really don't see what the MEs bring to the anti-MC table that Ironguts and Ironblasters don't already. Seems a bit of a waste of their more unique elements if you ask me.

I also still don't see the problem with Sniper. You can't catch people out with it, it's there on roster. You can take measures against it, or risk it on the frontlines. The odds of a character falling to it in a single round are low but significant (chip damage over the course of a game is always welcome).

A unit of 8 Maneaters with GWs is incredibly expeynsive, moreso than any MC unit you'll ever come up against and besides, we already have a very effective, tanky, GW-wielding unit in core. I really don't see what the MEs bring to the anti-MC table that Ironguts and Ironblasters don't alread. Seems a bit of a waste of their more unique elements if you ask me.

Maneaters have a higher WS, S and A characteristic. They don't rely on characters with hats for stubborn and have poison. ironguts will kill juggers eventually but maneaters will wreck them. They might cost twice what a unit of juggers does but they will kill the first unit that charges them easily and will grind down the second one. Ironguts tend to be exhausted after the first unit. Knowing all my units can kill the monstrous cav means I can focus on killing the easier targets like the chariots before they cause too much upset. 

They are also one of the few infantry units that will grind down the unkillable chaos lord in about three rounds. Is that unique enough for you?

Not if it's a unit of demigryphs or juggers. Taking sniper instead of stubborn means they can kill 500pts of maneaters without barely taking a scratch. A combined charge of a frostheart and cav bus will also have the same results. That's if the high elf player doesn't erase the units with short range bow fire.

But please enlighten me because I can't think of a single army where faffing around at the 24 to 10 inch range is a good idea. The elf armies will have the most fragile targets but banishment can be boosted to range 48 so I don't see why a light council would have to get into range. Also you move within 24 inches of any elf army and you're unit will get shredded by bolt throwers or glade guard. Empire have a wall of one up armour saves to screen their fragile on foot characters of they could put them in skirmisher units so you are hitting on sevens. Warrior characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Bret characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Ogre characters are too hard. Beastmen have plenty of screening units. Orcs and goblins do aswell and they will have no trouble killing all those maneaters in a ranged fight. Tomb kings and vampires will regrow wounds back. Dwarves are too hard to kill. Skaven probably have a few targets but they can screen very well. Daemons have plenty of options to screen aswell.

Just because your regular opponents can buy a ticket to a national tournament doesn't mean they are any good. Why it that even being used as a yardstick? If is then why do my opinions as a person who plays at 'national tournaments' not matter? Why were they not putting there characters behind cover or trees? Why were they not in a bunker unit behind a combat unit? Most armies tend to deploy like that anyway I can't see why a really expensive unit with no stubborn or armour with a very small chance of actually killing a two wound character would stress them out so much.

Sniper has no place in a tournament list due to it not being viable against any army provided they set up half decently and has no place in friendly games because it's not really that friendly is it? It hurts people with a lack of experience.

You don't like sniper, I get that.  Your opinion, however, does not change the fact that it works.

You say that it can't work against heavily armored characters.  Why not?  If they're arrogant enough to place them in front of my maneaters, i'll kill im in 1 or 2 turns.  I shot a bret lord out of a unit after 2 rounds of shooting.  His HKB stick of death didn't even get to fight.  I've shot a chaos lord off of a manticore with a shoot and stand and shoot reaction.  I've killed elvish Lords and Heroes by walking up to 23 inches and shooting.  AND GUESS WHAT!!!!  I can still stop a light council and other magic heavy armies by taking anti-magic.  I know it's crazy, but you can take anti-magic while still having sniping/poison. 

I have never said that they are the best unit known to man.  But they do work.  Stop saying that it is a pointless rule, because it isn't.  Poison and BoOP on 8 maneaters is devastating.  Top it off with the fact that they can pop a character if the situation arises means that it is a very dangerous unit.  You might not like it, but stop being a troll by antagonizing anyone that doesn't agree with everything you will ever say.

You can dislike something and still think its ok.  I will never again use a unit of 4 mournfang with the DHB simply because I didn't like playing with it.  That doesn't mean it isn't good, just that I don't like it.  You need to learn the difference between effectiveness and preference.  They are mutually exclusive and should be taken as such.

Juggers might be Frenzied but tackling one unit of them straight after the other with M6 dudes seems a bit optimistic. It's also not a very clean kill, either - 3 Juggers kill, what, 2.5 Maneaters every turn? A Gutstar with tanky characters can soak up the wounds much better whilst still dishing out the necessary high-S attacks with the bonus of static combat res on top. Mournfangs can also get the charge, tip the combat with impact hits whilst taking the return attacks quite well and send them packing.

And if your intention is to wipe them out in a single round, it once again begs the question of why you particularly want Stubborn. I find it's best suited on units that are either looking to grind down the foe over several turns so need the extra insurance, or on units that are simply too valuable to risk a failed test (like the Gutstar). The ability to mitigate a really, really bad round with unit as powerful as Maneaters seems less useful than actually making sure they get the drop on a lot of units and potentially boost their impacts to boot.

If you spent 3 rounds in combat with a single unit of mine that cost considerably less than yours, I'd be well pleased. I'd also probably be stuffing something into your flank.

Not if it's a unit of demigryphs or juggers. Taking sniper instead of stubborn means they can kill 500pts of maneaters without barely taking a scratch. A combined charge of a frostheart and cav bus will also have the same results. That's if the high elf player doesn't erase the units with short range bow fire.

But please enlighten me because I can't think of a single army where faffing around at the 24 to 10 inch range is a good idea. The elf armies will have the most fragile targets but banishment can be boosted to range 48 so I don't see why a light council would have to get into range. Also you move within 24 inches of any elf army and you're unit will get shredded by bolt throwers or glade guard. Empire have a wall of one up armour saves to screen their fragile on foot characters of they could put them in skirmisher units so you are hitting on sevens. Warrior characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Bret characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Ogre characters are too hard. Beastmen have plenty of screening units. Orcs and goblins do aswell and they will have no trouble killing all those maneaters in a ranged fight. Tomb kings and vampires will regrow wounds back. Dwarves are too hard to kill. Skaven probably have a few targets but they can screen very well. Daemons have plenty of options to screen aswell.

Just because your regular opponents can buy a ticket to a national tournament doesn't mean they are any good. Why it that even being used as a yardstick? If is then why do my opinions as a person who plays at 'national tournaments' not matter? Why were they not putting there characters behind cover or trees? Why were they not in a bunker unit behind a combat unit? Most armies tend to deploy like that anyway I can't see why a really expensive unit with no stubborn or armour with a very small chance of actually killing a two wound character would stress them out so much.

Sniper has no place in a tournament list due to it not being viable against any army provided they set up half decently and has no place in friendly games because it's not really that friendly is it? It hurts people with a lack of experience.

You don't like sniper, I get that.  Your opinion, however, does not change the fact that it works.

You say that it can't work against heavily armored characters.  Why not?  If they're arrogant enough to place them in front of my maneaters, i'll kill im in 1 or 2 turns.  I shot a bret lord out of a unit after 2 rounds of shooting.  His HKB stick of death didn't even get to fight.  I've shot a chaos lord off of a manticore with a shoot and stand and shoot reaction.  I've killed elvish Lords and Heroes by walking up to 23 inches and shooting.  AND GUESS WHAT!!!!  I can still stop a light council and other magic heavy armies by taking anti-magic.  I know it's crazy, but you can take anti-magic while still having sniping/poison. 

I have never said that they are the best unit known to man.  But they do work.  Stop saying that it is a pointless rule, because it isn't.  Poison and BoOP on 8 maneaters is devastating.  Top it off with the fact that they can pop a character if the situation arises means that it is a very dangerous unit.  You might not like it, but stop being a troll by antagonizing anyone that doesn't agree with everything you will ever say.

Sorry but this looks like you calling me a troll because I don't agree with everything you say. So far I've explained how easy it is to stop you getting the most from sniper simply by using terrain and other units. You the reply with examples of when you got lucky. Killing any character with a one up save with sniper is luck. He is more likely to pass both his saves and then charge your maneater with his knight unit and kill them.

I'm not saying you can't kill characters with sniper, what I'm saying is it is very luck dependent, easily prevented and damages the maneaters effectiveness as an anchor.

I can tell the difference between what is good and what is personal preference. Hence why I rarely discourage people from taking thundertusks and stonehorns or a hunter for example. I just don't like bad advice being given out and I honestly believe sniper is a complete waste of eight maneaters.

Also what does the the BoOP stand for?

Not if it's a unit of demigryphs or juggers. Taking sniper instead of stubborn means they can kill 500pts of maneaters without barely taking a scratch. A combined charge of a frostheart and cav bus will also have the same results. That's if the high elf player doesn't erase the units with short range bow fire.

But please enlighten me because I can't think of a single army where faffing around at the 24 to 10 inch range is a good idea. The elf armies will have the most fragile targets but banishment can be boosted to range 48 so I don't see why a light council would have to get into range. Also you move within 24 inches of any elf army and you're unit will get shredded by bolt throwers or glade guard. Empire have a wall of one up armour saves to screen their fragile on foot characters of they could put them in skirmisher units so you are hitting on sevens. Warrior characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Bret characters are too hard to kill with shooting. Ogre characters are too hard. Beastmen have plenty of screening units. Orcs and goblins do aswell and they will have no trouble killing all those maneaters in a ranged fight. Tomb kings and vampires will regrow wounds back. Dwarves are too hard to kill. Skaven probably have a few targets but they can screen very well. Daemons have plenty of options to screen aswell.

Just because your regular opponents can buy a ticket to a national tournament doesn't mean they are any good. Why it that even being used as a yardstick? If is then why do my opinions as a person who plays at 'national tournaments' not matter? Why were they not putting there characters behind cover or trees? Why were they not in a bunker unit behind a combat unit? Most armies tend to deploy like that anyway I can't see why a really expensive unit with no stubborn or armour with a very small chance of actually killing a two wound character would stress them out so much.

Sniper has no place in a tournament list due to it not being viable against any army provided they set up half decently and has no place in friendly games because it's not really that friendly is it? It hurts people with a lack of experience.

You don't like sniper, I get that.  Your opinion, however, does not change the fact that it works.

You say that it can't work against heavily armored characters.  Why not?  If they're arrogant enough to place them in front of my maneaters, i'll kill im in 1 or 2 turns.  I shot a bret lord out of a unit after 2 rounds of shooting.  His HKB stick of death didn't even get to fight.  I've shot a chaos lord off of a manticore with a shoot and stand and shoot reaction.  I've killed elvish Lords and Heroes by walking up to 23 inches and shooting.  AND GUESS WHAT!!!!  I can still stop a light council and other magic heavy armies by taking anti-magic.  I know it's crazy, but you can take anti-magic while still having sniping/poison. 

I have never said that they are the best unit known to man.  But they do work.  Stop saying that it is a pointless rule, because it isn't.  Poison and BoOP on 8 maneaters is devastating.  Top it off with the fact that they can pop a character if the situation arises means that it is a very dangerous unit.  You might not like it, but stop being a troll by antagonizing anyone that doesn't agree with everything you will ever say.

Sorry but this looks like you calling me a troll because I don't agree with everything you say. So far I've explained how easy it is to stop you getting the most from sniper simply by using terrain and other units. You the reply with examples of when you got lucky. Killing any character with a one up save with sniper is luck. He is more likely to pass both his saves and then charge your maneater with his knight unit and kill them.

I'm not saying you can't kill characters with sniper, what I'm saying is it is very luck dependent, easily prevented and damages the maneaters effectiveness as an anchor.

I can tell the difference between what is good and what is personal preference. Hence why I rarely discourage people from taking thundertusks and stonehorns or a hunter for example. I just don't like bad advice being given out and I honestly believe sniper is a complete waste of eight maneaters.

Also what does the the BoOP stand for?

BoOP = Brace of Ogre Pistols.

I agree that taking out characters with a 1+ won't happen evertime.  But I still find sniper useful.  As I said.  It isn't the best unit ever, but it is effective.

I agree with your statement that it damages there effectiveness as an anchor, but I never use them as one. 

My sniper/poison maneaters usually don't see combat until turn 4 or later.  I usually hold them back and shoot, then use them as a support unit in an area that i'm not doing well.  I do well with them in my matches, so I consider them useful.  I have had matches where sniper wasn't used, so it can be a wasted ability.  But I've had matches where it dropped a Lvl 4 turn 1. 

As you said, it's a gamble.  But it is a high risk/high reward ability.  It doesn't always perform well, but when it does it is devastating. 

I don't want  to continue our chatroom fight, so I'll stop by saying that I like the advice you give to players, but on this issue I disagree with your stance on sniper.

Keep it civil please, folks.

I think you continue to under-rate Sniper. As I say I don't think it's the best option out there, but 6 will, on average, kill a Wargor BSB (T5, 2+ save) over two rounds of shooting with BoOP (Brace of Ogre Pistols). Off the top of my head the same goes for the typical level 4 with a 4+ ward - those are not useless odds. I also think that using the unit as an anchor is missing the unit's strengths. Again, this really isn't an army that's lacking in tough, hard-hitting line units that can win a slog and Maneaters are really quite fragile. To pass up on the ranged capability, the relatively good Initiative and the more esoteric abilities... no thanks.

Juggers might be Frenzied but tackling one unit of them straight after the other with M6 dudes seems a bit optimistic. It's also not a very clean kill, either - 3 Juggers kill, what, 2.5 Maneaters every turn? A Gutstar with tanky characters can soak up the wounds much better whilst still dishing out the necessary high-S attacks with the bonus of static combat res on top. Mournfangs can also get the charge, tip the combat with impact hits whilst taking the return attacks quite well and send them packing.

And if your intention is to wipe them out in a single round, it once again begs the question of why you particularly want Stubborn. I find it's best suited on units that are either looking to grind down the foe over several turns so need the extra insurance, or on units that are simply too valuable to risk a failed test (like the Gutstar). The ability to mitigate a really, really bad round with unit as powerful as Maneaters seems less useful than actually making sure they get the drop on a lot of units and potentially boost their impacts to boot.

Chaos players get to decide what they charge most of the time- they rock out multiple chariots, fast characters, chimera's and juggers. Cannons and chaff can only stop so much stuff from coming through.

You take stubbourn because four juggers will beat the maneaters turn one but the round after that you finish them off. There are also things like enchanted blades to worry about. A double six can appear on that spell and all of a sudden you lose your entire back rank so you need stubborn to keep the unit alive. I also never said it was a clean kill. It's a horrid messy combat but you should be left with a few models after it.

I personally mixed a unit of pistols and great weapons. The pistols are for getting rid of charmed shields and the great weapons are for getting rid of the annoying one up armour saves. Which are in almost every army in one shape or form. I currently have the razor standard in there aswell.

I'm not sure you've ever played the optimal chaos list with the unkillable characters and chariot/troll core and juggers flying at you so I don't think you can fully appreciate how important it is to kill the unit before another one joins the fight. Ironguts can beat juggers in a one on one fight but there will always be something else coming up behind them to tip the combat in your favour and they don't do it quite fast enough. Maneaters damage output in quite a bit higher.

I fight highly optimised Chaos lists on a regular basis. My Maneaters typically do very well knocking wounds off monsters with shooting, beating up Chimeras before they can strike, getting the drop on chariots etc. Throwing an incredibly expensive unit under the feet of the Juggers and expecting such a unit to lose in the first round is simply a really bad idea considering: a well-placed cannonball can drop half the unit/Sabretusks can redirect them into insignificance/Mournfangs beat them on the charge/the typical Gutstar brings 5 static res against them before combat starts.

Keep it civil please, folks.

I think you continue to under-rate Sniper. As I say I don't think it's the best option out there, but 6 will, on average, kill a Wargor BSB (T5, 2+ save) over two rounds of shooting with BoOP (Brace of Ogre Pistols). Off the top of my head the same goes for the typical level 4 with a 4+ ward - those are not useless odds. I also think that using the unit as an anchor is missing the unit's strengths. Again, this really isn't an army that's lacking in tough, hard-hitting line units that can win a slog and Maneaters are really quite fragile. To pass up on the ranged capability, the relatively good Initiative and the more esoteric abilities... no thanks.

If he puts the BSB behind another unit or a wood then you're looking for it to take about three to four turns.

And my maneater unit doesn't miss out on the improved I or ranged abilities and I don't under estimate sniper. That's why you'll never do anything of worth with it to me. My ogres will likely be more defensive than most other ogre armies with heavens magic to enhance this and my daemons....well your cannon's will kill my greater daemon turn one and my BSB will be hiding behind some furies or beasts of nurgle. Yeah it will be devastating against some people but at the top tables in a tournament then you won't achieve much with it.

And if you're on the bottom tables you really shouldn't need such a gimmick to win

Also roll the dice for six maneaters with great weapons/ razor standard attacking a steam tank!!! Nothing else like it in the game!

Wargor BSBs are the ones pelting towards your lines in a massive unit of Gors, all the time. It'll be in range turn 1. I'd say the number of BSBs who prefer to skulk in the rear is a rather small one anyway.

What's your definition of 'gimmick', by the way?

I fight highly optimised Chaos lists on a regular basis. My Maneaters typically do very well knocking wounds off monsters with shooting, beating up Chimeras before they can strike, getting the drop on chariots etc. Throwing an incredibly expensive unit under the feet of the Juggers and expecting such a unit to lose in the first round is simply a really bad idea considering: a well-placed cannonball can drop half the unit/Sabretusks can redirect them into insignificance/Mournfangs beat them on the charge/the typical Gutstar brings 5 static res against them before combat starts.

Where have I said I won't be using my cannons and chaff to mess my opponents charges up? I use braces of pistols and shoot monsters and chariots and the like. I just chuck a few great weapons in there because it bails me out if my cannons feck up and the daemon prince gets into combat.

I've also stopped running the banner of eternal flame on them because you're just asking for the unit to get pinned down.

See I would expect a good player to be able to obscure his BSB and still manage to run straight forward at you! Maybe next time you play beastmen you can tell your opponent to do this and see if you can still shoot him dead.

I'd say anything which is stopped by your opponent knowing better and/or requires above average luck to achieve anything at all is gimmicky. Whether it being gimmicky is a disadvantage or not depends on the outcome of it's effects and the points you spend on it.

Now that I've typed that I feel like a hypocrite because I always take the hellheart. That said when it stops death wizards from getting into optimal purple sun distance and gives you an auto win against vampires and lizardmen if you use it right then it doesn't feel gimmicky as opposed to 'broken as hell'

EDIT- I also used a daemon army for six months and given how match up dependent greater daemons are I'll say that they are gimmicky aswell. Oh look warriors! I win. Oh look an army with a cannon! I lose.

....ooohkay. Let's, step away from this spitting match and go back to the original post at hand.

I am thinking about using maneaters in my army. I usually use a horde of guts and i am looking for options. First how many should i be using and what formation? Also the main question would be, what is a good combination of Been there done that?

Thanks all

If Genghis Khan is already using a Guthorde/Gutstar, then we should look at Maneater options that can optimize the list that he's already bringing.

Looking at that, you could run some shooting MEs to help thin out enemy lines, but Leadies would be better for the major thinning in the long run. You could try and target enemy characters, but if they're screened, it may take longer to get to the characters (which is where Leadies/magic can help remove the screen, possibly). You also could run them with Stubborn and something to make them an anchor-ish, although Stubborn doesn't equal Unbreakable, and if they lose outside of the BSB bubble, they only have LD8 (which, is above average for Ogres, but not invincible).

You could also look at them as being great at harassing a flank, via Vanguards or Scouts. Yeah, if they get paired up across the field with an unfavorable match-up (i.e. Monstrous Cav), they're not going to do as well, but that's the essence behind an "unfavorable match-up". There's opportunity for your Maneaters, if they can get behind enemy lines, to draw attention away from your main units (be it arrowfire or a cav/M-cav unit coming after them), but if you run them at a cost-effective point range (which... for MEs... heh...), that could be more beneficial whilst you get your Guthorde into the meat of their army.

So, Genghis, the choice really is yours. And, even better yet, why don't you just make up around 6-8 Maneater models, and test out what works for you? You could have success with Poison/Sniper, you could have success with Stubborn/Swiftstride, you could even have success with Strider/Vanguard if you're feeling that silly

Maneaters are about customizing. They're the most fluid unit in our book, and they can be utilized in so many good ways. The key thing to them is this: If you build them a certain way, learn how to use them that way. If you try a build but don't play it right, the unit's going to get wasted. So, you'll have to practice with it. Just like any other unit.

My favorite Maneater build:

5x1 Maneaters with extra hand weapons, musician, standard, banner of +1 movement, with swiftstride and scout.

On a round they charge and assuming none die, thats 35-45 str 5, ws 4 attacks/hits, positioned wherever you want regardless of scenario deployment. If you count per wound, they are expensive. But if you count per attack/hit, they are a bargain!

The Poison Sniper Guys really do mess up your opponent's positioning - it's ridiculous how much you suddenly see people trying to hide characters or worry about where they are, especially if they don't have a large variety of safe spots.

Thing is, they also tend to forget that it's still Poison Shooting - which can very reliably deal with a lot of units that are annoying but you don't want to waste an Ironblaster shot on. Chaff tend to be one of those units!

My favourite is Stubborn and Scout - with AHW you can happily threaten a flank and make your opponent deploy awkwardly 'just in case', then go nuts holding up another unit. Oh, I love my Angry Pirates...

My favorite Maneater build:

5x1 Maneaters with extra hand weapons, musician, standard, banner of +1 movement, with swiftstride and scout.

On a round they charge and assuming none die, thats 35-45 str 5, ws 4 attacks/hits, positioned wherever you want regardless of scenario deployment. If you count per wound, they are expensive. But if you count per attack/hit, they are a bargain!

I run this unit too current games - well, I go for the gleaming pendant but I'll try the +1M banner.
They wreck face if your opponent doesnt fill the whole deployment zone with drops all within 12" so you cannot drop them on the flank.

For the snipers and the whole discussion of usefulness, then I'll say that if I take them I'll have to adapt most of my list around them, so in my eyes they are good (with obvious counters) but my overall list becomes less all-comers but better for a particular list types.

But poison+swiftstride ME with the flame banner and brace of guns is my new black against eg. daemons to get greater daemons, Nurgle beasts and other stuff away. They can function to complement the iron blaster and considering daemons has little shooting they can stay alive and hopefully get the charge with swiftstride otherwise go for stubborn and tie up the GD until the poison will finally get through.

6-8 is a good number to enable them to sustain wounds.

I have tried ItP which means it is a safe place for the BSB and it is a unit which isn't going to be panicked. Probably not a bunker for Butchers, SM's or Firebellies as it could result in an expensive miscast.

Definitely XHW on the front rank and Poison is a good option.

I haven't tried the shooting variants but these could be good if you have the points to use.

mannies are my fav unit. they always perform and never let me down. My staple is always

4 BoP, LA, sniper, poison

A very handy unit that crushs in combat or picks off from afar. when you kill a wiz with them and gain magic superiority you will be glad you took them.

But why stop there? I usually run 2400 points. For a laugh I put in 2 or 3 sabre cats and the rest in 3 units of mannies. Now as I am having a break from gaming for a year I think the points were something like this...

4 mannies w poison, sniper, BoP, LA, muso
rest split between 2 units of...
mannies, stubborn, scout, std, LA, muso, flaming banner, single pistols each
mannies, vanguard, ItP, std, LA, muso, single pistols each

It places an incredible amount of pressure on the oppo in a place that you choose. the non snipers have about 28 attacks each unit (5 in front row). Vs GW units they steam roll them before they can be attacked. 1+ armour is a pain to deal with but then it always is.

Remember though that they are only T4 and will fall over fast to a lot of shooting.

I once supported them with yetis for a blitzkrieg 1st turn but it didn't go well...

Only 4 with a brace of guns?

They get really expensive in a 6-pack but the math suggests that this is the most reliable unit size if you want snipe and kill a 2W model. Also, 6 guys will remain deadly for a longer time if you end up in a grind and the role of ME is to eventually end up killing stuff in CC - at least for me, they function also very well in combat but never do a frontal charge on anything striking before you.

I used to like the sniper rule but lately people in my club can smell it far away and it is easy to deploy in a way that the sniper+poison is negated (light cover does it).

I only use 4 with BoP as its the threat and not the result that I am after. As I use 2 combat mannie blocks they need to be strong to cop damage and convincingly return it. Plus each BoP costs a bit in points. for the large blocks actually I include a throwaway unupgraded model for the first wound to be taken from to save points.

I try not to grind with mannies as there are more cost effective units that do this better ie bulls and iron guts. I too use them as flankers supporting my main bull blocks vs non GW units. They work best with an aggressive approach but can be overwhelmed if flanked. A single +1S or +1T will make a unit with XHW gods vs T4 or less. If I am able to throw a single powered up soul blight then the game is almost one (ok that's being a bit dramatic I know.) 

One other reason why I love mannies so much is that they are the easiest unit to proxy/convert. MFC are expensive to buy. Leadies are the same to a point. IBs are hard to cheaply convert from other units. etc etc. But mannies can be made from ironguts/bulls with a minor amount of greenstuff. pistols can be added from empire handgun bitz from ebay with the minimum of fuss/cost.

Speaking of gimmicks and hellhearts.. The sniper shots on the level 4 might not kill him, but if he takes 2 wounds, that hellheart miscast or 6 dicing for an IF gets far more risky.

I run 6 poison/snipers when my Lore of Death Slaughtermaster leads the forces... The two sniping together can often down even well protected casters/BsB; and never felt like I was 'wasting points' sending them into melee after taking down the targets that haven't run away.  A good LoD SM can really run the magic phase once you shoot their support casters and/or LvL 4 down.

Putting together a possible Tyrant/2xFB list, I found room to squeeze in three ME with AHWs, most likely doing Scouts with either poison or swiftstride. Always fun to see an opponent squirm when he sees I've saved my Maneaters for last, really puts a psychological stab in the eye before the game even begins.

With regards to Sniper, I'd say if an opponent is having to alter their movement or deployment at all in order to deal with me having it, it's been worth the investment.  Sure, Ogre characters aren't too scared.  But DE scroll caddies, Tullaris, and cauldron hags sure are.  Worth it to me, since that's my meta; ymmv.

Not being prepared to deal with the sniper ability doesn't automatically make a person a poor or inexperienced player, it just means they're not accustomed to facing it.  I love having the option, at least.

Putting together a possible Tyrant/2xFB list, I found room to squeeze in three ME with AHWs, most likely doing Scouts with either poison or swiftstride. Always fun to see an opponent squirm when he sees I've saved my Maneaters for last, really puts a psychological stab in the eye before the game even begins.

I think 3 is to few models.  I run mine 6 strong, with FC, BotEF, 5xBoOP and a GW on the champ.  Poison and stubborn for me.  They are expensive but they are great for holding a flank and providing a great flank charge mid to late game.

Putting together a possible Tyrant/2xFB list, I found room to squeeze in three ME with AHWs, most likely doing Scouts with either poison or swiftstride. Always fun to see an opponent squirm when he sees I've saved my Maneaters for last, really puts a psychological stab in the eye before the game even begins.

I think 3 is to few models.  I run mine 6 strong, with FC, BotEF, 5xBoOP and a GW on the champ.  Poison and stubborn for me.  They are expensive but they are great for holding a flank and providing a great flank charge mid to late game.

Nobody is wrong here. The two units fulfill different roles and you could even argue that both would fit in the same army : ) The scouts are exactly what it says and the opponent often have to dedicate effort to handle them. Most other scout units are rather weak but even 3 ME can punch stuff right in the face with 5 attacks/model (with ahw) at WS4, S5 and the impact hits hurt too. The alternative 6-ME block both shoots and is a beast in combat - with stubborn it is even a sold character bunker!