lore of the great maw

And if they've decided to put a wizard or something in such a small unit then you might find yourself with a new cannon target for the shooting phase!

Ah, there's the problem.


I genuinely did not see any unit like that in my matches at a recent Tournament.


Not saying you guys are wrong, those units do exist and may have indeed been there. I just ended up against Block City. Pfff.

Though there were some good Nurgle targets actually, but my Firebelly decided he didn't want to be a wizard anymore after his first spell, so that's just some bad luck on my part.

I've found that if you don't keep trying to bubble stuff, and instead chuck out cheap solo unit castings of Spinemarrow, Bullgorger, Toothcracker and Trollguts (yes, even that firstone) you find that people might let Spinemarrow through due to you having enough dice to cast another spell that they have to dispel, which pretty much guarantees you're not leaving combat, and you only need another to get through to push combat. I'm tempted to try it with a Grut's sickle as it really lets you spamcast and put pressure on people. Plus, the Heavens signature fits in nicely with that strategy.

But you're right about the spell they see a mile off - that's the problem with bubbling Trollguts all the time. Too big a risk.

I think thats a key point.
Dont go for the knock out bubble troll guts, Ogres arent a single knock out blow.
We are a constant stream of blows, hit after hit after hit, thats the key.
Its better to single cast +1s, +1t and regen

I think at Lore of great maw is some kind joke...okei,it have few ok spell (Spinemarrow,Toothcracker and Trollguts) but still I think that it´s some kind joke as I compare example High elf or Dark elf own lore which are much better and useful. I hope that next ogre book it own lore it´s much better and useful

I think at Lore of great maw is some kind joke...okei,it have few ok spell (Spinemarrow,Toothcracker and Trollguts) but still I think that it´s some kind joke as I compare example High elf or Dark elf own lore which are much better and useful. I hope that next ogre book it own lore it´s much better and useful

Well, if you want an army where the caster is going to win you the games or something that is completely broken, "I win army" type, this isn't for you.

Although I haven't always agreed with all the posts on this thread, there are some very good points on how to effectively use all of the spells.  And, what more do you want from our lore that it doesn't give you right now?  And foremost, its lore attribute, is subtle but amazing - the ability to get wounds back on your casters and +1 to the next spell/dispel is pretty darn powerful.  Plus we are Ogres, miscasts do not hurt us nearly as badly as they hurt most armies (Template of S10 hits...it hurts, but I still get my 4+ regen?  cool, I might lose an ogre... and my caster is going to get that wound back on a 2-6 immediately after so long as he isn't cast into the warp.)

Spinemarrow - the deceptively useful signature spell that everyone writes off; our army will almost never have steadfast, and this helps to minimize that weakness.  And stubborn is better than steadfast.  With a BSB/General near by and suddenly your speed-bump units become roadblocks to set up counter charges.  Do you have to plan ahead to the enemy's turn and anticipate charges? Sure.  Like with all magic, there is some uncertainty.

Bonecrusher - my answer to the Steam Tank.  Its not so great, because it wounds most anything on 6's.  But, thats the thing - it wounds anything on 6's with no armor save.  Good little spell to knock wounds off pesky 1+ armor stuff.

Bullgorger - Once your units are in CC, this is always useful, except maybe on Ironguts (but it does make impact hits and stomps more of a guarantee).  And a relatively low bubble cost for +1 str.

Toothcrakcer - Same as above, but ALWAYS useful to have a higher toughness.  Always. 

Braingobbler - Ok, not always useful against every army, and the most situational of all spells in our lore, but each lore has a spell thats not always going to be useful.  I have read some good posts on how to use it effectively.

Trollguts - Amazing, so amazing you can use the psychology of it to drive your opponents dispel decisions.  Absolutely need it to turn the tide?  Use 6 dice and damn the miscast if it happens - cause you'll still get your 4+ save.  You do have a small chance of losing your caster in this attempt, but when its worth it, its worth it.

The Maw - I will agree with you that this spell is not useful mainly because of how often you get screwed by that 1 in 6 chance of a misfire and your opponent gets to put it on you.  But, its the only spell in the game of its type that even when the target MAKES its test, it still takes a hit.  So, yeah, I would just take the stubborn spell, because after all, we are OGRES: our damage is supposed to come from Close Combat, not the magic phase (even you, Firebelly). 

So, use your magic the way it is supposed to work with your army, play to its strengths.

Toothcrakcer - Same as above, but ALWAYS useful to have a higher toughness.  Always. 

That would likely be true if strength seven, eight, nine and ten didn't exist. Aswell as poison.

I also don't think it's fair to say that pieni not liking Maw means he just wants to dweller things to death. I think what he is after is a lore where every spell is useful and needs some imagination to use. It's not unfair to say that when maw is at it's best it is still very point and click.

Also I would say magic isn't about maximising strengths you already have like you say but more about negating your weaknesses. Hence why you see Dark Elves using magic to lower the toughness of their foes with their lore, shadow and death rather than use the lore of light.

Toothcrakcer - Same as above, but ALWAYS useful to have a higher toughness.  Always. 

That would likely be true if strength seven, eight, nine and ten didn't exist. Aswell as poison.

I also don't think it's fair to say that pieni not liking Maw means he just wants to dweller things to death. I think what he is after is a lore where every spell is useful and needs some imagination to use. It's not unfair to say that when maw is at it's best it is still very point and click.

Also I would say magic isn't about maximising strengths you already have like you say but more about negating your weaknesses. Hence why you see Dark Elves using magic to lower the toughness of their foes with their lore, shadow and death rather than use the lore of light.

True, S7-10 and poison mean Toothcracker won't be of much use (except on some of our already T6 stuff), so I guess ALWAYS wasn't the right word, but luckily, you'll never exclusively face this, so it will still be useful in every phase of every turn.

And with regards to the Maw at its best, yeah, you are right; but the disagreement was over if the Maw was even useful or completely suck in comparison to what the High elves and Dark Elves have.  An interesting thing I have noticed: I never see those armies take anything but lores from the rulebook.

Toothcrakcer - Same as above, but ALWAYS useful to have a higher toughness.  Always. 

That would likely be true if strength seven, eight, nine and ten didn't exist. Aswell as poison.

I also don't think it's fair to say that pieni not liking Maw means he just wants to dweller things to death. I think what he is after is a lore where every spell is useful and needs some imagination to use. It's not unfair to say that when maw is at it's best it is still very point and click.

Also I would say magic isn't about maximising strengths you already have like you say but more about negating your weaknesses. Hence why you see Dark Elves using magic to lower the toughness of their foes with their lore, shadow and death rather than use the lore of light.

True, S7-10 and poison mean Toothcracker won't be of much use (except on some of our already T6 stuff), so I guess ALWAYS wasn't the right word, but luckily, you'll never exclusively face this, so it will still be useful in every phase of every turn.

And with regards to the Maw at its best, yeah, you are right; but the disagreement was over if the Maw was even useful or completely suck in comparison to what the High elves and Dark Elves have.  An interesting thing I have noticed: I never see those armies take anything but lores from the rulebook.

Well Dark elf armies can get doombolt with the warlocks and the high elf lore has the same problem maw has in which there is one obvious one to stop. Rulebook lores are just better.

Well, if you want an army where the caster is going to win you the games or something that is completely broken, "I win army" type, this isn't for you.

Maybe but I want Army which work together and win to play altogether. I was exception to finnish ogre players when I use lore of maw so.Many finnish ogre players say "fuck,what shit this is",take one slaughtermaster which use lore of death and one butcher which use lore of maw only because must use least one ogre caster to lore of maw. I don´t to that because I think that is some good spell though I say that is some kind joke.

Well, my normal setup for a long time has been two firebellies.  Usually, I end up with a pair of fireballs, and at least one (if not two) other useful spell.  My ideal lineup is Fireballx2, Flaming Sword, and Flame Cage, that way I have lots to do all game long.  I have recently been getting back into using Heavens and between the lower casting values and wide variety, I cannot say I would ever use Maw over it.  I would probably use Maw over Beasts, though I think the default spell in Beasts makes it much more attractive.  Maw (on a L4 at least) has much more utility than Beasts, it just lacks any serious early game scroll drawing spells and its best spell can be easily neutralized by flaming attacks.  Both lores lend themselves to late game all in six dicing strategies, while Heavens and Fire both peck away at you continuously.  Death is good against novices who do not know how to defend against it, but once you are stuck in you are down to six dice Blight or Doom and Darkness.

I think there are a range of Magic builds that Ogres can use.

Maw: Bubbling Regen seems really good for a combat army.

Heavens for a shooty type list but also has a range of good buffs.

Beasts is ok but I am not sure a Lvl 4 will get full use out of this Lore.

Death maybe for a specific army build.

Fire: Double Firebelly another alternative to a Level 4.

Maw offers quite a bit for combat buffs beyond Regen. I often if not usually get regen dispelled if I don't IF it, so I think it is very normal to be running on +1S or +1T buffs.

Heavens is very good for combat troops too. Iceshard is a great spell and there are several other good ones.

Beasts is made for character-heavy deathstars, something Ogres do very well.

Death is generally very useful, again for character-heavy deathstars, where you can spam snipes or for a more MSU army where you can bubble soulblight the enemy. Death has a lot to offer beyond just purple sun. But I have to say it's my least favourite.

Heavens for a shooty type list but also has a range of good buffs.

No heavens is great for any type of list. The 'it's for a shooty list' argument is just something that gets repeated on here without anyone actually taking a second to think about it. I'd say ice shard on your enemy is better than plus one toughness but it also helps against shooting units. Harmonic convergence will increase the damage output of your units except maybe ogres better than the strength buff but also helps your shooting. Midnight wind isn't as good as ice shard but is still very useful to get off and the rest of heavens in fact could make up for a lack of shooting in your army. Chipping away at units and ice sharding shooting units will likely help you in combat more than leaving those units untouched/ shooting at full capacity and hoping to get your buffs off.

Also comet is one of the funnest spells in the game. Great hijinks to be had for all.

Well, the flip side is that since heavens boosts shooting and the others don't, it is the best if you do have a shooty list.

Spinemarrow - This spell is the reason to take Maw. with the crown and this you have 2 stubborn systems. If your general and bsb flee and are run down thats a huge chunk of points gone. An excellent spell.

Bonecrusher - no armour save?! yes please. Buts got a low S! thats ok. If it was a S4 missile it would wound anything T6 on a 6 anyway. Put the fear of god into heavily armoured 1 wound 1+ knights.

Bullgorger - This is an obvious one but it may not be that useful except on bulls or peeling open 1+ saves. However it does apply to impact hits, stomp and attacks so is nice to get off.

Toothcracker - Vs S4 shooting it will save more guys and then when you fight it helps. This is a great spell. 

Braingobbler - can be good in the right situation. Not really a fan. However combined with doom and darkness on a unit away from the general is great.

Trollguts - Very good spell that will never be cast due to scrolls or massed dispell dice. If you do cast it, it will be hit with fire to remove it. But it is very good.

The Maw - Have never used this but am sur it may be good.

No heavens is great for any type of list.

Solid argument ; )
Offswitch had mentioned earlier that heavens can boost our innate issue with ws3, that we can reroll 1s tohit/to wounds, which does improve combat potential. I have run the number some time ago and I recall that the boost is not fantastic and game changing but it is there and it is a very valid point!

On the other hand I just ran the numbers for ogres with +1T boost or the opponent having ice shard (although this is comparing a sig spell with a normal spell and hence not a direct overall comparison). The two spells are on par for damage reduction against ws3 S4 and ws4 S5 attacks (66% and 75%) however the +1T is better against ws4 S4 and ws4 S3 attacks (75% vs 66% and 75% vs 50%). This however does not take into considerations any lore attribute or casting value and such.

Getting back to the spinemarrow and the usefulness of stubborn - one spell might not safe the game but it builds in a very desirable redundancy in the army where we can get stubborn through cheap gnoblar ranks, spinemarrow, Crown of Command, man eaters. I just creates new opportunities : )

I find that if you always save a dice or two for Spinemarrow (which Grut's Sickle can help towards for letting you use less dice on other spells) you're basically helping your dispel phase with your lore attribute with an easy spell, and ensuring that even if your other spells were dispelled or not powerful enough to turn the tide of combat, you'll be staying there, ready to grind on.

You need to view it more as an ingredient in spamcasting, along with the other buffs, rather than a particular means of holding up a unit.